I shoot with a 7d and it's so easy. Every camera has issues, but you just work around them and learn to work with it.

It's no longer about quality video, I mean it shoots so good, how much better does it need to get? Sure there are cams that spec out better, but really a good dv tape cam does fine and a 7d/5d does so well...why do I want to spent $6k on a new camera that's not going to make my films any better.

No ones been complaining, if anything they think I shoot with a $50k camera for it to look so good.

Other than the buzz of buying new gear what will I get for spending $4000.00 more than I shoot with now?

I'll buy one if I can be sold on why I should.

Monty

If you are so happy with your 7D, then why even consider upgrading?

If you've got some money to burn, put it towards something in you kit that you feel does need improving - audio gear, workstation, support gear, a back up body, etc - or even advertising for your services.

+1.

Cheers.

I hear ya Monty.
There is one area of improvment that might make me wish i had a newer camera,. and thats in autofocus.
If i could use these EF lenses with as quick AF as the can do in photo mode Id be tempted.
I believe the next DSLRs might tackle this issue.(AF during liveview)

It's rather like buying a hi fi system, you shouldn't buy one if you can't hear the difference. If you can hear the difference you do buy... Assuming you can afford the price of course.

Ask yourself, do you need it, or want it ??

7D is a great camera and I agree I'd imagine for 90% of the work everyone produces they are good enough quality.

Right now however I'm having to make the decision which camera our company buys next. We need another kit so the options are either to stick to DSLR or go for FS100/canons offering. Now I am almost sure we are going to get a FS100 or Canon 35mm video camera as our current biggest time consumption in editing is converting footage. our second biggest time consuming job is syncing audio. As this is the case I feel it's worth us spending the extra money on the camera after all if we are running a successful enough company we should be able to cover the costs.

That said I would not spend anymore than a FS100 on a video camera for what we do as the quality difference would never be seen on the web or DVD.

We've shot hundreds of vIdeos in the past year on two Canon 550Ds and no one has companied about picture quality or us using them, they must be doing something right.

I understand the desire to have a more "video camera-style" camera and the 7D does have its workarounds, but it seems the fs100 has some of its own issues. I'm waiting to see what comes out of the Nov. 3 announcement before buying anything new.

I had been shooting with a couple of Canon hdv tape cams ( H1 and A1) for a few years. I started incorporating a 7d whenever I could, and love the image. I recently sold my tape Canons, one of my 7d's nd bought an FS100 and an nx5 as a companion.
Why I prefer the FS100 over the 7d, as
1- Don't have to record seperate audio any more.
2- Almost unlimited non stop recording time, especially if you buy the Sony drive.
3- Increased flexibility for tweaking the looks (picture profiles).

So with no need for seperate audio and long recording time, the FS100 can be used as the main camera for events like concerts and weddings, still providing the beautifull image we've all been accustomed to on the 7d's. And also NO MORE TAPE DROP OUTS!!!
We shot a concert on Sunday, and used the NX5, FS100 and a 7d for close ups.. Still need to get the color closer on the 7d, but everything is cutting together well.

The FS100 does have it's ergonomic challenges; tiny buttons, and needs accesories to use as a more run and gun rig. But it is modular and can be configured for most uses. Also, the couple of Sony lenses I got have stabilization and pretty usable autofocus when needed.
All things considered, it's a great camera. Now why Canon didn't come out with something similar, but with shoulder cam ergonomics, is a mystery o me.

Bruce Yarock

Bruce, that's what all of us want for Christmas!! Ha ha! A camera from Canon to blow the fs100 and af100 out of the water.
As for the OP, even though i do a ton of shooting with the 7D, I much prefer my xf300 as far as resolution goes. I've been bit a couple of times by the moire and the aliasing is terrible. For grins I shot side by side on a talent against my greenscreen. When I went to key the 7D it really showed the deficiencies in quality. Don't get me wrong, the 7D looks great when used for DOF work and b-roll but there is a large amount of room for improvement. If the "novemeber cameras" can offer large sensor with no moire or aliasing and use the XF's codec I'll be a very happy camper! And if one happens to shoot 4K....I might sell one of my kids to get it! Ha ha!
And yes, our clients don't really care what camera we use as long as it does the intended job. My reasons for lusting after a 4k are simple. Save time during the shoot. Since I deliver in 1080, I have to shoot for that space. A 4k image over a 1080 window means I can do zooms and pans as well as cut to closeups in post without resolution loss. More options in editing and less time shooting makes my life a lot easier.

I am replacing my cameras with the only purpose - to get better image quality, and not because my clients complain, they never do unless you shoot a paid job with an iPhone :), but because I want it, I want better picture, I want better sound, I always want something better than I have :)
and it's been a very long three years that I can't find anything better (I don't want to go over $10K ) than EX1 and 1/5D, I am ready and really want to, but FS-100? no thanks, it has APS-C, but 21Mbs is today's consumer video standard;
so, like guys from the red community say :"remember remember the third of November"

no thanks, it has APS-C, but 21Mbs is today's consumer video standard;

I'm not the biggest fan of AVCHD either but you truly need to look at the footage out of an FS100 before deciding on the camera based on the bitrate. For a $6k camera, I'd list the video quality as SUPERB and VERY low noise, even when pushed to 15dB of video gain. And we have an Atomos Ninja on its way from Guy Cochrane and the DVEStore next week if we need a more edit friendly CoDec at 4:2:2...

I was on the fence for quite a bit regarding the FS-100. What got me was that I needed to have the ability to record 90 minutes at a time without interruption.

Now that I have the camera, I absolutely love it. The record times and audio are great, but the image is simply better than what I can get with my 7D and 60D (which I will continue to own). The low light is also better than these cameras. I really couldn't believe it when I put the camera to 18db and the image was still so low in noise.

When I watch the 1080p footage full screen and pixel peep, the FS100 comes out on top, even on well lit footage.

Something that I didn't realize, was a 32GB card will give me 175 minutes of record time at the highest quality 1030/30p recording. That's pretty much double the record time of my DSLR's, but the quality looks better! Perhaps the memory usage isn't a big deal when you're shooting, but if you're shooting at half the rate for better quality, that means that you'll use half the storage space on your computer.

The last thing that I want to mention is 1080/60p. That's slow-mo footage at 1080p. That's a nice feature that the other Canon DSLR's don't have.

At the end of the day, you have to go with what your budget commands. I've been perfectly happy with my DSLR's for the past year, so nothing against them.

We are toying with some bigger projects in the near future, a full length film feature. This is one reason I started to think about a new camera.

Since the OP I've concluded the dslr video is era is dead. I don't think I'll sell my 7d it's so easy and fast to use and looks great. Audio has been an issue, but I get by and the limited time record has been a problem, but again I work around it.

I had an hour long event to record and could not do it. I want a video camera again! XLR audio inputs with controls, 444 recording and s-log. If I wait and get a camera like this I will be set for 5/10 years.

For where I think I'm going and what we will be doing I am waiting to see what cine style camera, Sony's F3...w/ the new firmware?

Monty

A lively debate on this subject here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avchd-nex-fs100/501337-holding-off-purchasing-nex-fs100.html

I seemed to be in the minority thinking that the FS100 not worth the $5K (you could buy 2 refurbed Mark II's and a new T2i, plus used glass for that price).

I suppose it comes down to two basic factors - who's you client base (IE - will they accept a DSLR as the primary camera), and two, are you willing to deal with some of the limitations the DSLR form factor has.

I am replacing my cameras with the only purpose - to get better image quality, and not because my clients complain, they never do unless you shoot a paid job with an iPhone :), but because I want it, I want better picture, I want better sound, I always want something better than I have :)
and it's been a very long three years that I can't find anything better (I don't want to go over $10K ) than EX1 and 1/5D, I am ready and really want to, but FS-100? no thanks, it has APS-C, but 21Mbs is today's consumer video standard;
so, like guys from the red community say :"remember remember the third of November"

I'm biased. I own an FS100 and LOVE it! I also despise DSLR's for
shooting video. That being said, some use DSLR's, get great results,
and like them, so to each their own. BUT I would say, be careful believing
everything you read online. As an owner, I can tell you the FS100 does NOT shoot
at a maximum bit rate of 21Mbps. It shoots at a maximum bit rate of 28Mbps.
The video quality is VERY good. Clearly stated in the official specs of the camera
in the official sony brochure is the maximum bit rate
of 28 Mbps.....see here:

Sony Product Detail Page NEXFS100U (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-nxcam/product-NEXFS100U/)

I can confirm, as an owner that it can shoot 1080 60P video WITH SOUND at 28 Mbps.
Normal bit rate for 24p and 30p is 24 Mbps and it can also shoot in 'lower' bit rates,
although I don't know why you would ever do that. BUT stating that it is 21Mbps
is not true.....not really. It goes higher than that.

Why? Because THIS is so much more impressive than a dSLR with kit lens... <sly wink>

Seriously though... if your specific way of working doesn't support this form factor then don't buy it. For us, it's a no-brainer and we (and more importantly, our CLIENTS) are blown away at the value.

Since the topic of this thread is the FS100, it has been moved where it belongs (from our 7D forum).

I was hoping to get the perspective from those of us who use 7d's....

If you want to know "why should I buy Camera X" then you should be asking the people who
actually own Camera X, because they're in a much, much better position to tell you why you
should buy it, which is what you said you wanted to know.

If all you really wanted was reassurance from other 7D owners that the 7D is all you need, then
the question should have been "why should I not buy any other camera." I learned the hard way
a long time ago to keep Ford questions in the Ford forum and Chevy questions in the Chevy forum.

I have and shoot video with a 7d. I also have a F3. Given a choice I will pick the F3 EVERY TIME over the 7d (for video).

I love my 7d but its not a video camera. The F3 (and the FS100) are real video cameras.

So I would ask the same question in reverse. Why continue to use a camera that does video as an add-on and not as its primary purpose?

I guess for many of us when the 7d/5d first starting showing us the great image made with the shollow depth of field and large sensor there wasn't any other cameras producing this quality for this price. Some will argue I guess, but at the time bringing the ability to focus and shoot clean low light scenes was ground breaking.

And again for the price point these cameras were unbelieveable. At the time I had a huge 3 chip JVC with an external harddrive that cost $8800.00. This camera could not match the cine look and feel of the 7d. With the three chips and lens it was like looking through a telescope even when at a wide angle.

Fast forward to today and now this same cine look is standard and is offered in some fine "video" cameras.

Excellent audio inputs, longer record times and an even better picture quality.

Just waiting to see what Canon offers this Thursday and we'll start the decision on which camera to get.

I have used 5D for two years. I am about to get a FS100 unless there is something new from NAB2012.
I am happy with the 5D quality. But it's still just a camera.

Here is some reasons that make me move back to camcorder (beside the quality and features)
I lost a line of jobs from an advertising company after the first job. Why? because i was using a 5D, they expect tv commercial need video camera to shoot. They have 5D, and even more choices of lens too. And then they notice 5D have the capability to shoot great video, and i have never been called for video production. And I ask them after months, they said, oh yes, we can take the video ourselves.

DSLR is just too common, when i did wedding video, there are 5-10 people using a 5D, and they are just a guest! It also happen to me many times when doing video with 5D at wedding and events, people keep asking me to take a photo for them. Even I insist i am just a videographer, they will insist me to take a picture for them.

If your clients are more corporate side, it is better use a professional camcorder, because it's not something too common that everyone could get one. If your jobs are mainly non-commercial such as wedding, DSLR is enough, even you will be asked to take pictures.

I've been shooting on the 7D and T2i for the past two years. I own my own business in wedding film production but have been shooting alot of commercial gigs as well.

To keep this post short and simple.... It is simply not acceptable to ever ask an actor or company VP to change their clothing because of moire or aliasing you get with a DSLR.

Enough said.

Thomas,
I've experienced similar situations. Great image on the 7d and 5d, but too many around. They're like flies on shite. I did a lot of shooting with my two 7d's ( only kept one), and hated having to do seperate audio and short record time. I kept one 7d, and use it for some beauty shots, etc. I;m very happy with the FS100, for many reasons. In addition to the great cine look, long record time, other features not found on the dslr's, It looks like a real rig. I went to a gig the other day with the FS100 on my shoulder rig, Zacuto evf and z finder, follow focus, and wireless receiver, and the client was amazed. He said it looked like something out of "Transformers" or the Matrix! The FS100 can shoot as a minimalist rig, or be set up like a big momma pro camera. And whether we like it or not, to most of the clients, "size does matter". Walking in with a rigged out FS100 sets you apart from the guy showing up with his dinky little dslr.
Have fun
Bruce Yarock

Bruce

Thanks to have the same thought as mine. Yes, Size really matter. Sometimes i think, even i hold a canon XHA1 HDV, people will think I am more professional than holding a DSLR. And you will have more respect as a videographer when using a camcorder.

Thomas,
I actually used to shoot with a Canon XLH1, and loved that camera. I also had 2 A1's, because often do multi cam shoots. Then I started using the 7d's more,loved the look, but was frustrated by the limitations. So when I decided to buy the FS100, I sold everything except one of the 7d's ( I also do some photography). After getting the Fs100, I realized that I needed at least one companion camera, so I bought an NX5. I love the way that the FS100 and NX5 match up so well. And no more tape drop outs!!!
I do miss the XLH1 for run and gun. The fS100 is more clunky when you add all then stuff I have, and you have to be constantly tightening and watching little bits. Tonight my frezzi light came loose from the shoe, I lost a tightening knob from the bottom of my follow focus. In other words, there's a lot more to be aware of when you use it for chaotic, run and gun situations. Oh but those beautifull close ups with the blurred background...
Bruce Yarock

Here's the point at which I committed to buy an FS100...

Down with DSLRs! Travelling Matt (http://mattdavis.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/down-with-dslrs/)

I've not been disappointed by the FS100, either.

My clients noticed and appreciated my move from Z1 to EX1, and they've felt the same with the FS100.

I still shoot with the DSLR, and occasionally go out with the EX1s, but as time goes on, it's FS100 all the way.

I shoot with a 7d and it's so easy. Every camera has issues, but you just work around them and learn to work with it.

It's no longer about quality video, I mean it shoots so good, how much better does it need to get? Sure there are cams that spec out better, but really a good dv tape cam does fine and a 7d/5d does so well...why do I want to spent $6k on a new camera that's not going to make my films any better.

No ones been complaining, if anything they think I shoot with a $50k camera for it to look so good.

Other than the buzz of buying new gear what will I get for spending $4000.00 more than I shoot with now?

I'll buy one if I can be sold on why I should.

Monty Well! If a sharp picture,no artifacts,no moire,no rolling shutter and ease of audio imput is a factor in what you do,then get the FS-100. It is the bomb as they say! That and you can turn it into "FrankenCamera" as I have. Think Lego on steriods. My rig pictured is set up for both hand held and tripod use. Usually have the "Techni color" setting as the picture profile and bypass the camera,s codec and go HDMI out to an Atomos Ninja set to Apple ProRes HQ.

Stunning!

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/sbysbys/matthurley-happywiththegearhehas.jpg

@Matt: Cool. A levitating Gumby running boompole! Awesome.

But it does have rolling shutter. The same amount as the EX1. Which is still quite noticeable.

Rolling shutter same as the EX1? Hmmm. Owning both the camera,s mentioned and used the EX1 for a full season of a broadcast reality show and then multiple national tv commercials with the FS100 I never have seen the phenom you describe.

Well! If a sharp picture,no artifacts,no moire,no rolling shutter and ease of audio imput is a factor in what you do,then get the FS-100. It is the bomb as they say! That and you can turn it into "FrankenCamera" as I have. Think Lego on steriods. My rig pictured is set up for both hand held and tripod use. Usually have the "Techni color" setting as the picture profile and bypass the camera,s codec and go HDMI out to an Atomos Ninja set to Apple ProRes HQ.

Stunning!

I'll say .. (tho I was too scared to quote your pix here).

Cheers.