As of this date (31 Oct. 2011), Canon has not positioned anything
as an AF100 / FS100 competitor. They are not in that market... yet.

Not till Thursday. ;)

By the way -- anyone knows if there will be a podcast of the Nov. 3rd (or 3k) event..?

-- peer
We are working on that possibility....and if we can't, we'll do video tweets up to you tube & Filmtools.tv. As soon as I know, I'll post

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

I have my fingers crossed that Canon will bring out a video equivalent to the DSLR for those of us that see limited value in cameras shooting video.

I am ready to buy the FS100, but have been waiting to see what Canon has up their sleeve on Thursday, Im not interested in the 1DX.

Same here.

counting down.....in 60 hrs we should know!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

From Film and Digital Times:

"Canon has been teasing us recently with intimations of a major product announcement in Hollywood. The rumor-phone has been ringing and OMG how the tweeterati are txting. Now hear this:

"Canon U.S.A., Inc. just announced the opening of the Canon Hollywood Professional Technology and Support Center in the Sunset Gower Studio lot at 6060 Sunset Boulevard in LA. Canon sources say, “the office will serve our film and television production clients and will provide a local site for support, research, service and training in Hollywood’s thriving entertainment industry.”

"It doesn’t take a Wall Street analyst to figure out that this looks like a major push by Canon into major motion pictures.

“We want to offer a one-stop shop where our clients can come to ask questions and explore our various products with the help of our highly qualified technical and engineering staff members,” said Yuichi Ishizuka, EVP and general manager, Canon Imaging Technologies and Communications Group."

Full story here: Canon in Hollywood | Film and Digital Times: News (http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/canon-in-hollywood/)

Well, gee, that doesn't sound much like a new camera announcement. Unless, of course, they do introduce some new digital cinema cameras that their support center will ...um...support.

I dunno, guys, Don't get your hopes up too much. Although based on all the postings here, it's way too late for that.

Edit - However, the arrticle does say Canon is looking into "new professional imaging technology." That sounds like a lot more than a new DSLR. Hope for the future!

Huh? We reported the Canon Hollywood facility thing almost three weeks ago:

Canon Hollywood Professional Technology and Support Center Premieres in Los Angeles at DVInfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/canon-hollywood-professional-technology-and-support-center-premieres-in-los-angeles.html)

Where have you been? You need to be looking at DVi News (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/) all the time, you'll
get your info a lot faster. Jon's a great guy, I just saw him in New York a couple
of days ago, and I love his publication -- but you are reporting old news here.
In fact, we've been running a separate discussion thread for it since Oct. 12th:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/501520-canon-hollywood-professional-technology-support-center-premieres-los-angeles.html

A well known DP who runs a web site for professional cinematographers says he'll be attending the Canon announcement rather than Scarlett announcement just up the road, so I imagine there's camera hardware of some sort being shown.

The 4K capture and 2K recording would seem to be a good way to match Red in some specs without putting too much extra hardware in the camera. Binning down 4K to 1080p would seem not difficult compared to what they do on the 18mp 1DX sensor. Apparently the 1DX doesn't do line skipping.

Philip Bloom made a comment awhile back that he felt Canon's XF codec may not support 4K well. Although I'm not sure why a newer codec wouldn't be designed for resolutions beyond 1080.

A well known DP who runs a web site for professional cinematographers says he'll be attending the Canon announcement rather than Scarlett announcement just up the road, so I imagine there's camera hardware of some sort being shown.

Since Scarlet is certainly less than Epic I suppose it's not as interesting except for those looking to purchase equipment.

He's already seen the Scarlet before, so I guess Canon appears to be the new stuff and I suspect he could arrange a hands on with the Scarlet very quickly if there's something totally new..

Where have I been? Hmm. I've been working with not a lot of time to read all of the six thousand websites I am supposed to be reading daily ;).

To be fair to Jon, he reported the support center news on 10/21. I didn't see any reference to it in this thread, so I thought it might be of interest to the discussion. I suppose I should have searched the whole forum.

It's all good, Peter, but you really need only one web site... this one.

As previously indicated, news about the Canon Hollywood
facility warranted its own discussion thread, linked above.

Yes, Jon published his press release the same day we did, back on Oct. 12th.
The single best way to use DV Info Net is to come here first and use it as a
*primary* information site. Whatever it is, we usually have it first, or at least
the same time as everybody else.

Only one Icon on my desktop for gear news..... DVInfo for sure.

It would be cool if DVinfo could also podcast the event ;^)

-- peer

Canon USA told me that they really don't want anybody Skyping from
an iPad at the Nov. 3rd event. They're treating it like a black-tie affair. I
haven't worn a suit since I was in high school and don't even own one,
but I'm attending this thing in my good shirt. The two following days,
Nov. 4th and 5th, are much more relaxed in terms of formality (and
dress code, probably). I'll do what I can on Friday.

Chris will this be a 12:01 am announcement post on DVinfo ?

Nope, it'll be later in the day... as soon after 3pm (pacific) as I can manage.

The 4K capture and 2K recording would seem to be a good way to match Red in some specs .......... Binning down 4K to 1080p would seem not difficult compared to what they do on .
If you use a photosite count of 3840x2160 (effectively 16:9 4k) it becomes remarkably easy to do a simple (but effective) read to get 1080. You just have to think of it as a 1920x1080 matrix of blocks, each:

B G
G R

So read out directly (instead of deBayering) and you get R,G,B samples at 1920x1080 resolution - or true 4:4:4 1080.
Philip Bloom made a comment awhile back that he felt Canon's XF codec may not support 4K well. Although I'm not sure why a newer codec wouldn't be designed for resolutions beyond 1080.
Uncompressed data rate for processed 4k output will be 4x that for 1080 at the same frames rates, and the XF codec is designed for 1080p/25 and 720p/50. (Which it's extremely good for.) I'd also hope that if they do use a 4k sensor, then the 4k capture mode is something like RAW - which is likely to need a lot more than the 50Mbs of the XF codec.

I've said it before, but what I'm hoping for are two cameras - both with a 4k sensor, both recording 1080 to the XF codec, but with the more expensive model also recording 4k RAW. And with the former at FS100/AF100 price, the latter at F3 price. But we'll soon know for certain......
Nope, it'll be later in the day... as soon after 3pm (pacific) as I can manage.
Can we check how that relates to other time zones, Chris? Am I correct in thinking the area is still on Daylght Saving Time - so PDT, not PST? If so, I reckon that corresponds to 22:00 GMT?

Daylight savings time is in effect until Nov 6th.

Black tie affair ??????

Sounds like one of those "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it affairs".....

My feeling is that on Nov 4th, us budget indies will go quietly back to our DSLRs.

A few days ago, Jim Jannard posted

"Scarlet is now a professional camera. It will be more expensive. And there will be no discounts for RED ONE owners.

That is all the bad news there is..."

And Canon's announcement about a Hollywood service facility hints at a studio, rather than an indie, strategy. As does the Paramount location and black tie approach to the event.

My guess? Take the 1D X guts and put them into a video body with video features, raise the price a bit, and you have your camera. Maybe there's a FF as well as an S35 version.

Down here in DSLR land, we'll get a 5D3 that still has aliasing. Hopefully, the anti-aliasing filter fits the new cam. Rolling shutter and noise reduction will be improved as will autofocus. The 7D2 might have dual processors without aliasing. That could be the killer DSLR for the budget video crowd.

The thing is, no video camera will offer the volume pricing advantages of DSLRs. If you can live with or work around the shortcomings, DSLRs will still be the way to go for many of us.

My feeling is that on Nov 4th, us budget indies will go quietly back to our DSLRs.

Just great -- now I'm starting to regret that I sold my 5D2 prior to the Nov. 3rd event, especially if also the Scarlet ends up above my budget.

-- peer

Thats kind of feeling I have at this point. But we shall see.

It depends what you define "indie" as, the traditional industry meaning is a production made outside the studios.

There are a whole range of low budget independent productions that a $10-15k camera is the ideal tool, there are others for which a $6k camera would work better. The Studio films are well serviced on the camera front with the Epic, Alexa, the up coming F65 and Aaton Penelope, plus film. These could also be the choice of higher budget independent productions.

The DSLRs with their large production volumes, will usually be cheaper, although I'd imagine with video improvements that don't compromise the image quality for their main market.

Canon's announcement about a Hollywood service facility hints at a studio, rather than an indie, strategy. As does the Paramount location and black tie approach to the event.



I agree, but they're making such a noise about it, that a pro movie camera will be attached and probably a cut down version aimed at us.

Otherwise RED would just sit back and watch, and not offer their new pro cam on the same day.

Cheers.

@ Brian, yep. There are many price ranges that can find interest outside of the studios. No one word captures that.

I chose the word "indie" specifically because of the traditional use of the word. Both Canon and Red seem to be targeting the studios. Where things get murky is that lots of indie productions use the same level of equipment as the studios. "Prosumer" probably makes more sense.

I tend to see things in these price ranges. (Your names for the ranges may vary.):
< 1,000 = consumer - 60D, HV40
1,000 - 3,000 = budget prosumer - 7D, many small 1/3" cams
3,000 - 5,000 = prosumer - 5D2 (with some accessories), mid-sized 1/3" cams
5,000 - 10,000 = budget professional - 1D X, AF100, FS100, EX1, EX3...
> 10,000 - professional
> 17,000 - studio (As I recall, the RED ONE is $17k. This is the cheapest S35 without aliasing, right?)

The consumer can plonk down <$1k without breaking a sweat. A serious hobbyist can go over $1k, but family and budget concerns set limits. $3,000 is an interesting break point for businesses as such products can be claimed as a capital expenditure. By $5K one needs to become more serious about making money with the thing. At $10k and up, one definitely needs the camera to be part of a business plan.

Of course, with any such ranges, there is no right or wrong. These are just my perceived ranges.

For the past ten years, I have maintained that a camera (camcorder) is one of only two things:

Either it's business expense,

Or it's a luxury item.

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

It's still my feeling that we'll see more than one camera, and hence the announcement becomes more about a "family" than a single model.

At the very least, I'd expect to see product around the pricing of the FS100/AF100, and again around that of the F3 - the former obviously lacking some features of the latter. (And 4k must be a good guess here.) And like the FS100/F3, maybe sharing the same sensor? Maybe even more than two versions?

If that's anywhere near the truth, a lot of indies may be very interested in something comparable to a FS100 in terms of features and price - but with a better codec, such as to save the expense, hassle of a separate recorder. That's why I remain more optimistic than Jon...... We'll see.

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

There are gray areas:
1) The camera that was purchased to make money, but never did, and
2) The camera that is purchased and used by a business that never makes a dime directly, but is actively used for promotional projects that support overall goals.

My personal camera (5D2) is a luxury item in that I never expected to make money with it.

The 5D2 at work is item #2. It adds value to the business, but was never intended to generate invoices directly.

Remember NAB 2008?

"Today at NAB, Red Digital Cinema showcased the long-awaited Scarlet, a compact model capable of shooting 3K video for under $3,000. Film and video enthusiasts flooded the show floor, clawing to catch a glimpse of the Scarlet's rectangular upright body and unconventional architecture. The Scarlet is equipped with a new 2/3-inch Mysterium sensor and supports 1-120fps with a 180fps burst mode. The Scarlet can capture video up to 100Mbps in REDCODE Raw format and RGB recording to dual compact flash. "

Hope it's not going to be like lots of things in life: "Anticipation Is Better Than Realisation".

Ron

Remember NAB 2008?

The Scarlet will be a some what different animal to the proposal floated there, but from what RED have been saying the basic core remains within a camera which is now being described as a professional product.

I tend to see things in these price ranges. (Your names for the ranges may vary.):
< 1,000 = consumer - 60D, HV40
1,000 - 3,000 = budget prosumer - 7D, many small 1/3" cams
3,000 - 5,000 = prosumer - 5D2 (with some accessories), mid-sized 1/3" cams
5,000 - 10,000 = budget professional - 1D X, AF100, FS100, EX1, EX3...
> 10,000 - professional
> 17,000 - studio (As I recall, the RED ONE is $17k. This is the cheapest S35 without aliasing, right?)

.

I agree with Jon, these are often the sort of price differences that separate each sort of camera and their target market. I hope Canon do release a "budget professional" 5-10k camera as this is where most of the interested market are. There are many, like myself, looking to upgrade from DSLRs would be odd if Canon just give away that entire "DSLR upgrade market" to its competitors.

No matter how good the Canon or the Scarlet camera for that matter is, I will not be going out of this budget range to purchase the camera as it wont be worth it for what I require. The FS100 is so good value for money but with a few small improvements coming from a canon DSLR owner perspective, better codec, nd filters & ef mount it could be perfect and I'm hoping that's what canon offer.

For the past ten years, I have maintained that a camera (camcorder) is one of only two things:

Either it's business expense,

Or it's a luxury item.

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

I have to disagree with this one, Chris. While there are many of us at DVinfo who are not making money with our cameras, and don't consider ourselves in business, most of us don't acquire our gear as a luxury. Rather we are driven an insatiable desire to just make films. To us, gear is something we need to get jollies- to get our fix, so to speak. It becomes a necessity. We love the idea of shooting a prefect scene and hear our audience of one or two, ooh and ahh at a shot. And, I have always maintained that it is the hundreds of thousands of us out here doing this, that manage to keep prices down and develoment going on gear for the professionals who use it for their livelihood. I think nothing has made this clearer than the DSLR revolution.

Tomorrow tomorrow, I love you tomorrow,
You're only a day away.

Just sold my race car so I could afford some new stuff. Lets go Canon and RED... I'm antsy.

If Canon doesn't come up with something this time, I'm taking my Canon EF Lens out behind the house, and give them the "float test" in the ocean.

If you have a 135mm 2.0 I'll take it b4 the float test :p

I would to add to it.
If nothing new is coming from Canon then switching to Sony.

So what time tomorrow does the unveiling begin? I hear that RED will announce their Scarlet about 3 hours later, so maybe the few lucky ones with invites can muster both of the events ;^)

-- peer

If it is something "historical" and "global" in the broadest sense of those words, it would have to be something very wonderful, and cheap that the multitudes could afford and would not want to live without, or else something very wonderful, and probably very expensive, that few could afford but everyone could benefit from what it produces. Nothing in the $1000-$20000 range (or a broader range really) is likely to be what they will present.

I have to disagree with this one, Chris. While there are many of us at DVinfo who are not making money with our cameras, and don't consider ourselves in business, most of us don't acquire our gear as a luxury. Rather we are driven an insatiable desire to just make films. To us, gear is something we need to get jollies- to get our fix, so to speak. It becomes a necessity. We love the idea of shooting a prefect scene and hear our audience of one or two, ooh and ahh at a shot. And, I have always maintained that it is the hundreds of thousands of us out here doing this, that manage to keep prices down and develoment going on gear for the professionals who use it for their livelihood. I think nothing has made this clearer than the DSLR revolution.

Chris, it could be more clearly defined as "it's a business expense if you're CLAIMING it as a business expense on your taxes". In which case you should have the intent to make money at some point. In Canada this means you should have a 'reasonable expectation of profit...'

Either Filmaker or MovieMaker magazine just had an article on this, warning those that were clearly hobbyists to be careful.

@ D Rice... Let me know what lenses you're going to float. I'm always looking to add good glass... but I'll need a receipt for my taxes.

I'm posting from the future here in Oz - today is Nov 3rd. The cameras have arrived they're shiny,silver and take better pics. They look similar to the old ones, and prices are about the same. They will really give Sony and Panasonic a run for their money - believe me. There is a huge queue of people trying to buy one of the few presently available - it's mayhem here.
Yours from the future, Chris

I'll give the Canon glass away, but the shipping and handling charges will be steep! Anyway, I have photographer friends who will pay almost retail for them here in Sitka. We are charge about $60 "uninsured" shipping charges to Alaska for a Canon 100-400 zoom lens!

If Canon doesn't come up with a decent Camera in the next few days, I might just as well give up on video, and go stills. I have been patiently waiting for over three years now.

Teaser from Canon via email:

"We are pleased to have you attend this historic Canon event on
November 3, 2011. The exclusive unveiling and exhibit at Paramount
Studios will showcase Canon's commitment to play a larger role in
the film and television production community."

For what it's worth,

Great .. hope they haven't forgotten us with a cut down version we can afford.

How's the weather in Cal, Chris.

Cheers.

I'm not even there yet... flying out tomorrow around noon (yes, cutting it close).

Chris: Mr. Couper and I have a bet going on the announcement and I think your post just made him nervous...

Teaser from Canon via email:

"We are pleased to have you attend this historic Canon event on
November 3, 2011. The exclusive unveiling and exhibit at Paramount
Studios will showcase Canon's commitment to play a larger role in
the film and television production community."

For what it's worth,

SDI out... Nice. Might be jumping to conclusions but I hope haha

SDI out... Nice. Might be jumping to conclusions but I hope haha

Nice catch. :)

There will almost certainly be provisions for redundant recording as this is generally required to obtain big-budget insurance. The dual recordings can be achieve in the camera, externally, or with a combination of the two.