It will be interesting but I can not understand the whole 4k thing. Sure, bigger numbers are easy to market around but there just are not many uses for 4k footage outside of major theatrical release. Just seems like a huge waste of pixels and bandwidth now and for a while in the future.

Tim -- both England (BBC) and Japan (NHK) are testing 4K and 8K for broadcast.

They were doing this *last year* even. Over IP. The future is now, folks. See this link:

Super Hi-Vision advances over IP - main-content | TVBEurope Magazine Online & In Print (http://www.tvbeurope.com/main-content/full/super-hi-vision-advances-over-ip)

Also, just recently at IBC2011: 8K live over IP from London to Amsterdam.

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/super-hi-vision-wows-audiences-at-ibc-2011/5433

Think 2012 Olympics...

Just came across this article titled "Possible Specs For New Canon Video Camera?" in which someone claims to have seen the specs of this new camera(s).

HD Magazine - HD Mag - Possible Specs For New Canon VideoCamera? (http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2011/9/20/possible-specs-for-new-canon-video-camera.html)

Jim Jannard and Co. over at Red have also just announced a major Nov. 3rd announcement regarding a "shipping Scarlet," which they've stated will go "head to head" with the new Canon.

Didn't know if any of this had already been mentioned.

Fun times ahead for all.

Tim -- both England (BBC) and Japan (NHK) are testing 4K and 8K for broadcast.

The BBC R & D department are often well ahead in these things, but I wouldn't expect the BBC itself to be rushing into 4K or 8K any time soon. They're still in the middle of a switch over to HD and the BBC Licence fee has been frozen until 2016.

November 3rd...

Surely is going to be an exiting day.

Folks, I hate to burst some bubbles, but Canon has never competed in the super high-end video/cinema market. Ever. I see no signs that they are changing anything.

Honestly, 4K downstream from the sensor is completely unrealistic. Canon lives and breathes in the "prosumer" market. That's 1080p and will continue to be 1080p for a good long time. Sure, Canon might use marketing mumbo jumbo and say "we've developed a brand new 4K sensor specifically designed for video applications", but they will definitely go the ARRI route and offer a 1080p file-based format.

On to something else (rhetorical, emotional and flamey)...

I don't know who said that Canon came inappropriately dressed to the party with the XLH1, but I find that somewhat offensive... I know it was difficult for the HVX fanboys to see anything beyond their own adulation for their 1/2 res sensor, but the XLH1 was a bad-ass little camera in all categories (yes, even including it's HDV implementation) and I don't think Canon conceded anything to Panasonic. Also it probably stung the JVC guys pretty badly after they dropped a load of cash on a 720p camera with interchangeable lenses only to have the XLH1 hand them their lunch.... all accomplished with a sensor that was superior in overall resolution, suffered from zero rolling shutter artifacts and did all of this with... a CCD! Doh! [/flamey emotional rant]

I think 1080p will be just fine for most users out there - it'll do me anyway. What will be interesting to see is if they release 2 versions of the camera as has been predicted. 4K would be a good route for people planing theatrical releases and for people who are looking to 'future-proof' their footage (especially important for people shooting wildlife and stock footage for instance).

The XLH1 was and is a great camera, but I wish Canon would have supported it with more lenses (the 6x lens is great, but that was the only one released other than the stock). I see the XLH1 is still used a great deal by the wildlife documentary fraternity; other than the EX3 there are not too many other options to use big photographic lenses out there. Adding a nanoflash has kept my XLH1 up to date I feel; I recently sold some footage to an international news broadcaster, and that footage ran alongside footage from professional XDCAM HD cameras (they were happy to accept nanoflash mxf 4:2:2 @ 50mbs - I doubt they would have accepted HDV though).

The point is that if canon release a S35 camera with the mxf codec then I figure I would use this alongside the XLH1/nanoflash (as the XLH1 still does a fine job in run-and-gun situations) - so I wont be retiring it anytime soon.

Surely is going to be an exiting day.

"exiting day"? Ominous ..... and stop calling me Shirley!

Grazie

OK. Two posts over at RedUser are fueling this:

They have just announced that Scarlet will be shipping before the end of the year. This is unexpected as I thought Scarlet was dead (they were going to release the Epic-S instead which would be a dumbed down version of Epic):
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET)....

Also Jannard announced that everything is going to change:
Everything changes... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63668-Everything-changes)...

So to save you the trouble the 2 threads can be condensed into these two points:

1) Scarlet is back.
2) This is a change brought about due to the competition.

What competition? Nothing new has been announced, and this certainly cant be a sudden change brought about by the AF100, FS100, F3 which have been around for a while.

Hmmmmm..........

Oh......BTW.

RED will be announcing on......you guessed it.......November 3rd!

Jannard says, and I quote, he will be going "head to head" with Canon.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63674-November-3rd...

RED will be announcing on......you guessed it.......November 3rd!

Jannard says, and I quote, he will be going "head to head" with Canon.



Boy are they going to feel dumb if it's just a printer.

I think, at this point, its safe to assume that its not going to be a printer. Presumably RED have some inside knowledge (given that according to rumours a number of prototypes are being used in the field).

Its an interesting strategy of RED, to announce Scarlet on the same day as Canon. It will allow the audience to compare spec to spec (and probably most importantly in this category compare the prices).

Somebody is going to ave the wind knocked out of their sails if the cameras are aimed at the same users...

Price war :)

Anyone old enough to remember riding in non airconditioned cars as dad pointed out the price wars on gas station signs, and you didn't get out of your car, 29 cents per gallon ? ? the first was a 51 chevy, then a ford falcon that had an amazing new feature, a rear window that went up and down with the push of a switch, how cool was that :) A used black and white television was 500 bucks and movie cameras were for the well off. Our house had a brownie. You could always tell when something good was coming on television because Dad could be heard yelling at one of us kids "right there, no back a little" only us old folks will no what that means.

Now we are waiting on 4k camcorders and Chris is out saving minnows, my how times have changed ! ! !

Price war :)

I love that!

Tim -- both England (BBC) and Japan (NHK) are testing 4K and 8K for broadcast.

They were doing this *last year* even. Over IP. The future is now, folks. See this link:

Super Hi-Vision advances over IP - main-content | TVBEurope Magazine Online & In Print (http://www.tvbeurope.com/main-content/full/super-hi-vision-advances-over-ip)

Also, just recently at IBC2011: 8K live over IP from London to Amsterdam.

Super Hi Vision Wows Audiences at IBC 2011 | 3D News from 3D Focus (http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/super-hi-vision-wows-audiences-at-ibc-2011/5433)

Think 2012 Olympics...

I still stand by my point that buying a 4k camera today will not have very many uses for most of the video community. Blu-ray is limited to 1080p. Internet bandwidth in most of the world is far away from streaming 3k, 4k. Broadcaster's are compressing the 720p/1080i to death just to make room on the channel dial.

So it looks like 4k will be useful for major release movies, wildlife future proofing and reframing options in post. Outside of that you will not be able to deliver it to anybody. I just think it is too quick to make this leap for $10,000 and under cameras.

So, Jannard's announcement does lend some credence to Canon announcing some type of digital cinema camera. Maybe.
Interesting times. I think this is the first time Jim has actually placed a real date on Scarlet's release. Now, whether you can actually place an order for the Scarlet on that date, we'll see. But he does mention shipping info, and that it will be for 2011.
More rumors on the Canon anouncement:

HD Magazine - HD Mag - Possible Specs For New Canon VideoCamera? (http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2011/9/20/possible-specs-for-new-canon-video-camera.html)

IF there is a new Canon camera, and IF it does use the XF 4:2:2, 50mbps codec - wow!

There is that Canon hair dryer again.....

Assuming the rumor is true, I am hoping somethings that were on board the 5D translate over. Things like the installation of Picture Syles such as the Technicolor Cinestyle picture style.. To me, that is something that helps a lot.

Then again, if this camera comes out with 15 stops of dynamic range, maybe Picture styles won't be as important.

Lets see, November 3, 2011- Sony VG-20 will be shipping at $ 1599 for the body only, Scarlet will be taking orders, Canon will announce something fantastic and new.

With all this building, I am guessing there are going to be more solid leaks coming ....

Chris, I'm right there with you. Very close to ordering a VG20, but with twin announce dates a month and a half away, I have to wait (and boy will that wait be tough).

I loves me T2i, but she is getting a little long in the tooth... not that I'll sell her - we've been through too much.

Maybe Canon buys RED or they have formed a partnership for low-end and high-end. One side of my brain says NO, impossible. The other part says HELL YEAH, Canon has enough money to do that.

I also think RED can never compete in the consumer/prosumer market and Canon will have a very hard time to compete in the high-end segment (and so far has shown no interest at all). So a strategic partnership where Canon will produce Scarlet wouldn't be that bad for both of them. If Canon would also start using RED CODE and Scarlet would feature Canon's 50Mbps 4:2:2 1080p as a codec option....

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I never expected Go Pro to buy Cineform either.

Sorry Floris, but this is definitely *not* going to happen -- guaranteed. Canon may have enough money to buy, but RED will never sell. Also, RED has said continuously that Scarlet is a pro item and that they are a strictly pro-oriented manufacturer. They simply choose not to pursue the consumer market space, which is a race to the bottom. Nor will they license RedCode out to any of the other major camera makers.

And Canon is already in the high-end digital cinema market, with their line of PL-mount D-Cinema lenses, so yes, their interest is already there. So the side of your brain that says "impossible" is indeed the correct one. ;-)

I'm really looking forward to Nov 3rd now that RED is going head-to-head with Canon. If the Nov 3 just turns out to be another XH-L1 refresh with XF305 features added in, this is going to be lopsided.


Depth of field:
Canon: forces every shot to have deep depth of field thanks to 1/3" chips.
RED: Allows the cinematographer to use thinner depth of field, which is a massive design flaw.
Verdict? A clear win by Canon.
Color artifacts:
Canon: lots, thanks to its 3-chip prism!
RED: none.
Verdict? *BOOM* head-shot, RED goes down.
Resolution:
Canon: 1080p
RED: 3k.
Verdict? 1080 is more than 3, people! Another win for Canon.
Data rate:
Canon: 50 Mbps
RED: 0.2 Gbps
Verdict? 0.2 is so tiny, they get crushed. Canon wins again.


I could go on, but it's already pretty obvious that when it comes to Hollywood, RED is way out of their league. Canon is going to take it all.

So far the talk from RED has been about the Scarlet on the 3rd Nov, which unless they're going to do a complete about face in their product range is a 2/3" camera.. They may have done a few changes to their last announced specs, but to date this seems to be a 3k camera with a 8 x fixed zoom lens.

The RED Super 35 sensor cameras are in the Epic range, with the former Scarlet Super 35 camera being the Epic-S.

Of course all this could change, but it has been RED's road map for a while now.

Sorry Floris, but this is definitely *not* going to happen -- guaranteed. Canon may have enough money to buy, but RED will never sell.
No, I agree, no sale - but a strategic partnership would be a different matter and might be advantageous to both parties. With something like Red fundamentally concentrating on the higher end and Canon the FS100/AF100 market. Maybe the Red Scarlet will actually turn out to be the Canon Scarlet......?

Thinking back, it did seem a little odd that Jim was referring to the Canon announcement as if he knew what was going on, and also that both companies were choosing the same day for announcements. Of course, if the announcements were linked.......?

And some people have queried the Canon announcements, what's meant by "historic global announcement"? And "The Story Begins". Looking at the link from Simon Woods post, we have Jim Jannard saying "There are some monumental changes coming... " and "everything changes"

The speculation has been that they were references to new cameras, period. But it's a bit strong language, isn't it.....? But if it was new cameras AND a Red/Canon tie-up, it may really be a historic announcement for the industry.

Has anybody seen anything that categorically rules out such speculation?

The RED Super 35 sensor cameras are in the Epic range, with the former Scarlet Super 35 camera being the Epic-S.

Of course all this could change, but it has been RED's road map for a while now.
No, it hasn't. A couple of weeks ago, Jim Jannard announced a new roadmap, and the Epic-S wasn't on it. When pressed about it, he replied, "The camera you want is later this year." Anyone interested in the Epic-S would probably want S35. But as far as I can tell, Scarlet (singular) is the only remaining Red camera that will be released this year. Also, his statements "What seemed like a good idea 3 years ago might seem completely wrong today" and more recently "Many times we announce a product, then realize that what seemed like a good idea... wasn't as good as we thought. Particularly when it doesn't measure up to 'our new and better idea'. That = change." seem to be aimed at 2/3-inch Scarlet, which was announced 3 years ago. One could conclude that Scarlet was now S35, with the Scarlet badge denoting a camera with a nonupgradable sensor. But it's anyone's guess.

Has anybody seen anything that categorically rules out such speculation?
You may be onto something. Jim Jannard's post did seem to be carefully -- and in spots vaguely -- worded. The more conventional interpretation is that both Canon and Red would announce cameras on November 3 and that he thought Scarlet would be superior in every respect. But what he said was, "RED announces the new Scarlet. Canon announces 'something really important to Hollywood'. Everyone wins" (emphasis mine), which implies that it may not be be a head-to-head competition and doesn't say Canon is releasing a camera, and "You get to compare RED's latest directly with the newest from one of the 'big dogs' in the industry," which doesn't actually say we'll get to compare cameras.

Has anybody seen anything that categorically rules out such speculation?

Not a categorical denial per se, but it's pretty obvious from reduser posts that Jim and Jarred don't see this as any kind of cooperation with Canon. For example:

"Head to head"
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825560&viewfull=1#post825560)

"Canon announces... we announce. The best one wins."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825578&viewfull=1#post825578)

"We like to bring Bazookas to knife fights."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825630&viewfull=1#post825630)

If scarlet is announced and the official price is under 6k (who knows how much it will be...) I will probably sell off all my DSLR equipment and move platforms. Then again, it depends on what lens they stick on it (Ive read an 8x zoom, but I like to see how long the lens is in mm equivalent...)

I stopped paying attention to 'supposed' price point releases about it a while ago - I guess I am going to keep on shooting merrily until/if/when something in this regard is announced. Whatever player makes the most significant offering, I will most likely buy around December.

All I want is small form factor, good codec, and 1080/60p. The rest is justifiable depending on price.

Not a categorical denial per se, but it's pretty obvious from reduser posts that Jim and Jarred don't see this as any kind of cooperation with Canon. For example:

"Head to head"
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825560&viewfull=1#post825560)
OK..... now maybe I'm reading way, way too much into this, but you could see all those quotes (and thanks for them!) as cryptic and capable of being taken two ways.

"Head to head" for instance may be taken as meaning "face to face" (as most people are taking it) which implies competitiveness. But it could be taken as "putting our heads together", and imply co-operation. Visually, you could think of two heads facing each other (competitively) or standing side by side (co-operatively).
"Canon announces... we announce. The best one wins."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825578&viewfull=1#post825578)
Likeise, that's being taken as "Canon announces their product, then we announce our (different) one, and ours is better than Canons".

But what if the meaning was "Canon announce a product, we announce how pleased we are to be in collaboration, and our joint product is better than anyone elses"?
"We like to bring Bazookas to knife fights."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825630&viewfull=1#post825630)
Again - being taken as the Red bazooka versus the Canon knife.

But could he be referring to a fight between the bazooka wielded by Canon/Red, and the mere knives of Panasonic/Sony?

Heck, I wouldn't put any money on this, but I don't see those as categoric denials. Whatever the truth, they're certainly generating an awful lot of interest!

Watch it not be a camera at all. :)

I don't know. It just seems to me that RED and Canon have completely different customers.

The price of a 5Dm2 body just dropped below $2000- here in Canada.

And rebates for US buyers September 25 and running until October 29, 2011.

Yet another sign Canon's ready for a big new camera roll out.

Because Canon isn't Red and because this camera is in the rumor mil for over a year, in my opinion "historic" means 4K. Everything less would be a turn off.

Not a categorical denial per se, but it's pretty obvious from reduser posts that Jim and Jarred don't see this as any kind of cooperation with Canon. For example:

"Head to head"
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825560&viewfull=1#post825560)

"Canon announces... we announce. The best one wins."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825578&viewfull=1#post825578)

"We like to bring Bazookas to knife fights."
SCARLET.... (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63669-SCARLET....&p=825630&viewfull=1#post825630)

FWIW, I completely agree w/ Daniel. It's quite a stretch read what Red has recently posted and conclude that they are partnering-up w/ Canon.

You may be onto something. Jim Jannard's post did seem to be carefully -- and in spots vaguely -- worded. The more conventional interpretation is that both Canon and Red would announce cameras on November 3 and that he thought Scarlet would be superior in every respect. But what he said was, "RED announces the new Scarlet. Canon announces 'something really important to Hollywood'. Everyone wins" (.

That doesn't mean that it's a Super 35 sensor Scarlet, You could have the 2/3" Scarlet, using RAW being considered superior in every respect to a 1080p Canon with a Super 35 sensor. For many productions the 2/3" sensor would be the better tool to use and there's no reason why they couldn't have a 4k sensor on such a camera. It's still a new camera in the market, even if it doesn't appear so after numerous threads on REDUser ,

RED loves the speculation as part of their marketing. I'm sure whatever happens some people will be happy while others will be disappointed.

RED seem to have used Nov 3rd as there target for Scarlet to go head to head with canon. OR is it an alternative to Canon.

Personally I think RED might make a sensor that covers 16mm film lenses and 2/3 lenses and Canon go full frame. That could be a tough decision for many.

Does anyone care if its 4k though? I mean what would the public use it for isn't it overkill and the pro side is already covered so to me 4k is more a gimmic.

It would be nice and why not have 4.2.2 10 bit out and record at various bit rates up to 220mbps as well as ND filters and useful tools. All could be done now especially as much of the expense in the past has been the lens. I think its about time a camera similar to the EX1 had a sensor that gave more control over dof and recorded at a higher bitrate for about or really should be less than EX1 pricing. especially now Jim Jannard will be hitting the sweet spot and market protectionism could be about to go out of the window for older manufacturers.

Fingers crossed.

Does anyone care if its 4k though? I mean what would the public use it for isn't it overkill and the pro side is already covered so to me 4k is more a gimmic.
Apart from anything else, it's great news for their marketing. If it's something priced head to head with the FS100/AF100, it becomes not why should you go for 4k - but why shouldn't you?

I'd hope for the possibility of recording to 50Mbs XDCAM422 at 1080p, and/or 4k to something capable of RAW.

And that's where a liasion with Red would make great sense in terms of a collaborative camera - lever the best parts of both organisations. It would also give Red access to such as Canons dealership and support network - something it may not have so badly needed when their product was high price/low volume, but more neccessary if we are going to see something lower priced/higher volume. To Peter Moretti I'd say that I don't consider Daniels quotes as evidence in themselves of a liasion happening - but I don't neccessarily think they're evidence that it won't, for the reasons given.

I also suspect there will be a big push soon towards 4k screens. Partly just as the next new thing, partly because screens are ceasing to be just a device to watch TV on, but finding a lot more uses in the commercial world for advertising, information display etc, where big screens and/or higher than 1080 resolutions are far more important than in the home. In which case, a move to 4k cameras would become part and parcel of a much wider move.

But what use is 4k? How can you see the extra defination on anything other than a cinema screen and even then could you tell a difference. Wouldn't you need to strain to see differences? Who is going to blow up their film to such huge proportions. Okay it would be good for film transfers or special effects but for the consumer isnt it going to be meaningless By all means have 4k if its no extra but isnt it to allow manufacturers to sell more equipment and not really in the consumers interest isnt this all just a ploy? As everyone will need bigger hard drives peripherals editing upgrades monitors you name it will need replacing and the manufacturers can sell shed loads of new equipment. Something the consumer doesnt need to create a NEW market. great marketing but a bit of a con I would think.

Part of me agrees with you, Mark. And, of course, we don't even know whether the announcement to come will mean 4k, or even a new camera at all - let alone a Red/Canon liasion.

It's also worth asking exactly what is meant by "4k"? It may sound obvious, but are we talking about a full 4k output resolution, a 4k Bayer sensor, or what? They are very different things! Just because a camera calls itself "1080p" doesn't mean it necessarily does anything like full justice to the format - just that that's the form of signal output. The AF100 doesn't even make 720p resolution, the FS100 is short of full 1080p - but they still call themselves "1080 cameras".

What I'd like to see may be a camera with a 4k sensor, and capable of recording a 4k RAW Bayer output. Because it is RAW, we're not talking about huge data rates, relatively. Even if you want to end up with 1080 as the final result, that will still give great leeway for post correction, garding etc and the final result should make the most of the 1080p output format. I'd also like to see the capability of recording 1080p as well, and would hope for a broadcast codec - XDCAM422 is the most likely from Canon - for some people who haven't got the facilities, time or resources to deal with RAW 4k, that would still be much better than AVC-HD or the hassle of an external recorder.

That doesn't mean that it's a Super 35 sensor Scarlet, You could have the 2/3" Scarlet, using RAW being considered superior in every respect to a 1080p Canon with a Super 35 sensor. For many productions the 2/3" sensor would be the better tool to use and there's no reason why they couldn't have a 4k sensor on such a camera. It's still a new camera in the market, even if it doesn't appear so after numerous threads on REDUser ,
When asked about his new Epic-S-less roadmap, Jannard replied, "The camera you want is later this year." I doubt those interested in it would be satisfied with a 2/3-inch camera. Unless Red announces another camera between now and the end of the year, Scarlet looks to be that camera. Besides, I find it hard to imagine that Jannard would concede sensor size to Canon (if indeed Canon's announcement concerns a video camera and it has a large sensor). Sensor size may be overhyped, but it does seem important to a lot of people.

RED is great at the speculation game, although, I suspect the sales numbers would be larger for a 2/3" camera than a large sensor camera. There are a lot of EX1 & EX3 plus other cameras being used on productions that would find a lower cost 2/3" camera rather handy replacement, however, the RAW workflow isn't for everyone.

I expect RED will do whatever it feels like and perhaps RED feels it has to match the FS100, F3 and the possible Canon because the big boys now are now stepping onto their pitch.

If a large sensor Canon has a HD broadcast accepted codec in the FS100/F3 price range, it'll be interesting to see how quickly Sony responds.

RED is great at the speculation game, although, I suspect the sales numbers would be larger for a 2/3" camera than a large sensor camera. There are a lot of EX1 & EX3 plus other cameras being used on productions that would find a lower cost 2/3" camera rather handy replacement, however, the RAW workflow isn't for everyone.
The sales numbers are also much higher for 1/3-inch cameras. Maybe Jannard feels that 2/3-inch's time has come and gone, at least for the market he's targeting (i.e., digital cinema, not ENG or event photography).

I expect RED will do whatever it feels like and perhaps RED feels it has to match the FS100, F3 and the possible Canon because the big boys now are now stepping onto their pitch.
The weird thing is, a year ago, the price of Scarlet S35 stood at $7K or so. Then it was moved onto the Epic platform, and its price effectively doubled. But the market you cited, FS100 and F3, represents a nearly $10K spread, so maybe Scarlet will still fit in there.

I wouldn't count documentaries as ENG (Electronic News Gathering) or event, RED seem to have put a lot of effort into developing a 2/3" camera, which does seem to have a market from the level of interest expressed on REDUser. I suspect there would be as many people unhappy about losing the smaller sensor camera as it being replace by a cheap large sensor camera.

I'm sure there will be people shooting events on a cheap large sensor RED camera, just as they do at present with the current such cameras.

Best not take everything at face value, just whatever and whenever it turns up.

4k is something ive been wishing for since getting into greenscreen and compositing. Not that 1080p is bad but the extra resolution would be nice.

Having the larger frame size would allow me to shoot full body and zoom to a head and shoulders without having to re-frame the shot since we still output to 1080p for most of our work. Instead of me operating two cameras or hiring another shooter, I would end up with some choices in the edit process that can't be done with one camera at 1080p.

So while I have no use for 4k output, 4k acquisition is a whole different use that I am looking forward to! And the ability to use my EF lenses with control is a major plus...whos gonna win my biz? Canon or Red?

But what use is 4k? How can you see the extra defination on anything other than a cinema screen and even then could you tell a difference. Wouldn't you need to strain to see differences? Who is going to blow up their film to such huge proportions. Okay it would be good for film transfers or special effects but for the consumer isnt it going to be meaningless By all means have 4k if its no extra but isnt it to allow manufacturers to sell more equipment and not really in the consumers interest isnt this all just a ploy? As everyone will need bigger hard drives peripherals editing upgrades monitors you name it will need replacing and the manufacturers can sell shed loads of new equipment. Something the consumer doesnt need to create a NEW market. great marketing but a bit of a con I would think.

Especially Mark when the specs are observed. Wikipedia is not always perfect, but they say that Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) is pursuing UHDTV. Which is 16 times the data of HD. Unlike current HD, 4k does not denote vertical pixels like 720p or 1080p, 4k denotes horizontal pixels. ( A confusing statement ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

UHDTV's main tentative specifications:[3]

Number of pixels: 7,680 × 4,320
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Viewing distance: 0.75H
Viewing angle: 100°
Colorimetry: under discussion
Frame rate: 120Hz progressive
Bit depth: 12
Audio system: 22.2ch
Sampling rate: 48kHz, 96kHz
Bit length: 16, 20, 24
Pre-emphasis less
Number of channels: 24
Upper layer: 9ch
Middle layer: 10ch
Lower layer: 3ch
LFE: 2ch

Hopefully it will have a selectable format for current HD.

Yes of course 4k has professional uses and is a real breakthrough at the high end but what use is it to the general public except to persuade them they need it and sell all the peripherals. Probably like the err 3d gimmic camera's ;)

The scarlet I was under the impression to be a prosumer camera. I dont mind if it has 4k res as long as it can do 2k and that side is well catered to.

I don't think RED do prosumer as such, they say that they're aiming their cameras at professionals.

RED could make a number of announcements rather than just one, but what the products are, other than one is called Scarlet remains to be seen.There could easily be details of two cameras being announced or other products.

They may even be responding to the Sony F65, the range is pretty wide.

Brian I may have this wrong but I thought Jim Jannard wanted to make cameras that indie film makers could afford and to end the rip off cycle where new crippled models come out that make consumers keep having to upgrade to the next best thing. His idea of a brain and accessories,upgrades etc born from that thinking and the prime reason we ended up with the breakthrough EX1 although the F3 has seen a return to the old ways Hopefully now this ends NOV 3RD D DAY!

Why is Sony returning to it's old ways with the F3?

Brian I may have this wrong but I thought Jim Jannard wanted to make cameras that indie film makers could afford and to end the rip off cycle where new crippled models come out that make consumers keep having to upgrade to the next best thing.

I guess he regards them as professional cameras at affordable prices, certainly he has declared on REDUser that they make professional cameras. The price of the Scarlet has seemed to have drifted up from the original announced, although so has the specification. I wouldn't look at the base price and think that's the cost of a shooting kit.

I think Sony regard the FS100 as the indie film maker camera, rather than the F3. Regardless, there will always be better cameras than the indie film makers can afford.

This post is my opinon and not neccesarily correct but believe it to be so from what is well obviously out there.

Steve the F3 is out of reach of most of us taking it back to the professional realm with pro pockets. the consumer version is in my opinion the ill made FS100.

When Jim Jannard announced the Red Sony bought out the EX1 To me it seemed almost as if fear of what he was going to do had made Sonys decision to try and pre empt it.

Brian it is not in dispute there will always be cameras indie film makers cannot afford and rightly so . I think though if Panasonic can make the NEW 250 with a fantastic lens 20bit processor 10 bit 4.2.2 out for £4000 then I'm damn sure sony can make an equivelent lens free large sensor camera instead of adding a few fancy bells and whistles and selling it for £12000 as an f3. Overpriced in my opinion but then the Pro market is happy to accept expensive equipment especially here in the UK where the BBC forces everyone with a TV to buy a licence. And it is my opinion thats what will happen on NOV 3RD D DAY for Sony and all the other manufacturers who have crippled cameras for years as slow but sure canon enter the fray Sony have kept markets seperate to please pro's and keep that market hyper inflated too.. Most if the public have been denied the opportunity to participate and make films that has changed a lot already and I believe much of this change came about purely because of Sonys fear of Jim Jannard a really big fish who had enough Sonys fearful release of the EX1 and access to real HD instead of the psuedo HDV that kept the markets seperate and then we watched the rise of the ofboard recorders heheh cant beat the ingenuity of the small fish. Yes business and capitilism takes no prisoners and that is why capitilism must always be tempered with democracy and laws. Especially competition laws and unfair practices. That is why there is competition rules and why sometimes companies get into trouble. I hope nov 3rd will hopefully be a new beginning and I will look forward to it!

To be honest, people haven't been prevented from making films. It's never been easier to make films, the costs are lower than they have ever been. It's nothing to do with the cameras, you can make a successful film in every respect with a camera that came out several years ago. The hard part lies within the creative process itself and gathering the people together who will enable a good film to be made.

Waiting for the next best thing in cameras as an answer is delusional, the tools are already to hand.