HDC-Z10000 | HD Camcorder | Panasonic Global (http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/z10000/)

The most surprising thing about this new camcorder is that it is from the Consumer division of Panasonic. With the exception of HD-SDI, it has everything else you would expect on a professional 3D camcorder, including optical stabilization, 1080p24, PCM audio and XLR inputs.

The fixed interaxial is 42mm and it has dedicated controls for focus, zoom, iris and convergence.

I've been checking it out since they announced it, but can't find any price indications - have you seen any Tim?

Could be a good little corporate video/wedding cam if it's priced right

I heard £3,000 from IBC this week. That translates to about $4500 USD.

Blimey!

Those HD-SDI ports are pretty expensive aren't they?

At B&H it is announced with $3.499,99 - unbelievable. Arrival approx. November.
Too bad it has no HD-SDI, that would make it the low-budget pro camera.
Has anybody any idea, how the 3D would work with this camera for objects further away (like buildings etc.)?
The IA between the lenses is 42mm and Panasonic says, it can get as close as 45 mm to an object. But for objects further away???
How does the "3D without glasses" monitor work? Is this really any good?
Jürgen

I'm interested in the video out choices which it says very little about in the blurbs.
It seems to have HDMI and as I recall some kind of a component or video out adapter - so what's the component out for 3D? and most important to me - what are your choices in HDMI? Can I output anaglyph as well as L, R and side by side. I want anaglyph for a mono field monitor. Does the 3DA1 output anaglyph?

I expect to get one to play with in a few weeks so I will report then.

Leonard, I've had a play with a Z10000 and it's a very nice little camera. Output is HDMI only (no SDi as Tim said) but you can select between either frame-packed or side-by-side.

There's no anaglyph output, neither is there anaglyph on the 3DA1 - I don't know of any 3D camcorder that outputs anaglyph.

The 3D recording on the Z10000 is 1080 only, up to 30fps, so no fast 720/60p mode. The 3-ring control is very nice (no iris/convergence confusion like you get on the 3DA1 if you're not careful) but the biggest surprise was the quality of the autostereo 3D LCD viewfinder, which was very effective.

It has a macro mode so you can film close in to about 45cm as well. It uses new sensors and takes really nice pictures.

List price in the UK is £2750+tax, which is just amazing.

I'm planning to get one as a complement to my 3DA1 as soon as a) they're available and b) I figure out an editing flow for the m2ts files it generates. Tried MVC to AVI but can't get it to run on a Mac.

Tim? Help? Any plans/ideas to support m2ts somehow in S3DT?

The Z10000 records in 3 different 3D modes:
- 1080 50i/60i
- 1080 25p
- 1080 24p

For 3D, the 1080 24p mode is nice, given the fact that the 3D blu ray specification does not foresee 1080 50i/60i. So that should be authored as 720 50p/60p for 3D blu rays, what brings always some conversion loss (even if I think that it is not worse really, given the loss in quality of 1080 50i/60i due to interline flicker in the interlaced formats).

The 3D LCD viewfinder is in its quality better then the JVC TD1, but weaker then the Sony TD10. But there is a mix mode that allows a great adjustment of the parallax.

There is a workflow for the Windows world - using either Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11, Vegas Pro 11 or the Cyberlink PD10. For Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11 the user should know that even the latest build is not able to read 1080 24p. What can be done is to use the mvc-decoder from Vegas Pro 11 r510/511 (from the 32bit version of Vegas Pro).

Unfortunately I do not know if there is now a workflow for the Mac world.

I'm reviewing camera for Feb DV magazine.

No workflow yet for Mac that I can find.

US List is $3500

Neil,
How does the image quality compare to the 3DA1?

I've not had a proper play with it yet but from what I saw from the camera HDMI out to a 3D TV at a trade show it looked very good indeed. It uses newer sensors than the 3DA1 and has slightly faster glass (F1.5 vs F1.8). Some people I've spoken to think it's got better picture quality than the 3DA1.

I hope to get hold of one for a day or two to try out very soon so I'll let you know when I do. I'd like to do a side-by side (so to speak) comparison with my 3DA1.

OK, so I'm getting a Z10000 to go shoot with next Friday 27th Jan. I'll have it for a week to go mess around with and shoot some footage which may get to be seen at the BVE show in London in mid Feb ;)

I've learnt it also outputs top-bottom over it's HDMI port as well as side-by-side and frame-packed and it auto senses the type of display connected - if it's a 2D TV or monitor that's what you see, if it's 3D it switches to 3D.

Richard at Holdan in the UK has been playing with it and thinks it's slightly oversaturated in the reds so he suggests to trim it back a little to get it flat for normal use, but overall he's really impressed with the image quality.

My biggest issue is an editing workflow for the AVCHD 2.0 output files on a Mac. I still haven't found a way to convert the m2ts files to separate left-right for ingest to FCP/S3DT. Apparently Edius 6 from Grass Valley can handle it but their free beta download is Win7 only (...must....resist....).

I thought about hanging an external recorder on but there's only HDMI out and I don't know any HDMI 1.4a recorders out there yet (will Gemini 4:4:4 do that?). Anyone know of a splitter that will take HDMI 1.4a and give me either two HDMI or 2 HD-SDI?

Anyway, pretty excited to be getting one for a week or so, I'll let you know how I get on and what it's like... unless someone here beats me to it :)

Cheers

Neil

That is right - especially if you apply scene file settings that go into red, you end up with the Z10000 with a quite red pricture. But that can be adjusted in the scene files in a great way, even if it is a little bit trial and error. Beside that I really like the Z10000... :)

I do not know a workflow for the mac - sine I do not use that. Maybe if you can run Vegas on a Mac... what some people do.

I think there is no external recorder that could record 3D too. Would be nice to know if somebody knows a solution here.

I've been trying to use Peter Wimmer's MVCtoAVIConvertor on a Mac running under Crossover but it stalls with an error during conversion - have been emailing Peter but not managed to get it working yet. He says another guy has it working on a Mac under Parallels although there is a requirement to have the files on an NTFS drive. I'm still playing with this.

I'm trying to find if there's an HDMI 1.4a to dual HD-SDI convertor out there, which could be a solution to the external recorder problem - hang a couple of single channel SDI recorders on each output.

All the convertors seem to be SDI-to-HDMI though, very dull :(

Grass Valley's Edius 6 beta handles the Z10000 files fine, but it's Win7 only (grrr)

There has to be a Mac solution somewhere...

Also Vegas handels the Z10000 files - and some people run that on a Mac. But that is something where I do not have any experience. And if there is another solution for the Mac - well I do not know, but have not heard of anything. Even for the PC world the mvc decoder that reads native Z10000 1080 24p files are brand new (and only availabel with Vegas Pro 11, Edius 3D and the PD10).

Hi,
in regard of conversion of the Z10000 files to edit in FCP - so far you have only the option to go via a PC editing system.
Maybe a friend with a PC can help out.

Then you have the cheap option of Peter Wimmer - but it will convert into AVI and you will get lots of data.
Another PC option is, using Sony Vegas (the latest) to split the MVC and then output into a format you can import into Final Cut.
A cheap PC editing software I saw, which was recommended in a Forum, is Cyberlink Power Director 10 - I did not use it, but on their Website (PowerDirector 10 - the world?s fastest video editing software (http://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdirector/requirements_en_US.html)) they show a lot of different output formats.

In regard of splitting the HDMI 1.4 signal into two SDI (to feed the NanoFlash 3D) I would also be v.e.r.y. interested to hear a solution. We will have a huge 3D project coming up and we are planning to use the Z10000 and other cameras. But having the possibility to split the HDMI 1.4 would be fantastic.

All the best,
Jürgen

Thanks, I'm aware of both Sony Vegas 10 and Power Director but I'd rather not have to buy an entire new editing suite however inexpensive (which will also require either a new PC or Parallels+Win7 to run) if I can find another solution :)

It seems such an obvious thing that I can't help but think Panasonic will produce a small utility to handle the file format conversion before too long, as they did with mts support for FCP.

There are HDMI-to-SDI convertors available but they are all HDMI 1.3 2D, haven't found a 3D version yet. Surely someone must be working on this - the AJA Hi5 is a great piece of kit, it just needs to work bidirectionally :) or at least bring a companion product out that works in reverse...

Neil

Come to think of it, when are we going to see an HDMI 1.4a video recorder? As far as I know only the new Gemini can do stereo as a single unit but it's HD-SDI only - the HDMI is only for monitoring.

Plus the fact you could buy 2 or 3 Z10000's for the cost of one 3D Gemini....

What about the Decklink HD Extreme 3D?

Blackmagic Design: DeckLink HD Extreme (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/decklinkhdextreme/)

Not cheap, but runs with a Mac too.

Yep, one of those, in a small box, battery powered, with a removable SSD drive :)

Call me fussy, but I don't want to lug a PC/Mac/Laptop around in the field just to record.

This is closer:

Blackmagic Design: UltraStudio 3D (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/ultrastudio3d/)

All it really needs is to be able to hang a standalone hard drive off it instead of needing a Macbook or PC.

I don't understand why camera manufacturers don't build ext hard drive support into their cameras - the new Pannie HPX250 can do it but that's the only one I know.

Still, an Ultrastudio3D plus a Thunderbolt-equipped Macbook capturing uncompressed 3D QT files from the Z10000 via it's HDMI output would be nice, although not terribly portable.

Neil

Yes, could be a nice solution... would be great to know if that works.

I've looked into it a bit more and think the following might work:

Z10000 >> HDMI 1.4 >> BMD Ultrastudio3D >> 2 x HD-SDI out >> 2 x Samurai or 2 x BMD Shuttle2

I don't think you need to go Thunderbolt into the Mac from the Ultrastudio3D at all, you could just go out via it's two SDI ports because as far as I know this is one of the few boxes that does HDMI >> SDI conversion and the only one I know that does it with frame-packed 3D HDMI 1.4a.

So total solution cost is $995 + 2 x ($1500) or about $4k maybe less on the street, so much cheaper than either a Nano3D or a Gemini.

Of course, you could buy a lot of PC's to run Edius or Vegas on for that but we are talking ProRes or DNxHD quality output here.

I'll see if I can get hold of these bits of kit and try it out when I get the Z1000 next week

Neil

"Z10000 >> HDMI 1.4 >> BMD Ultrastudio3D >> 2 x HD-SDI out >> 2 x Samurai or 2 x BMD Shuttle2"

Hi Neil,
that's exactly, what I thought, when I looked at the spec's of the BMD Ultrastudio3D. But don't you think, this is a bit complicated? How do you sync the two Samurai's? They will record their own Timecode as far as I know.
I think, I will rent/borrow a PC with either Vegas or another software which can split MCV and output what I need.
Of course it's a pain. Why isn't Panasonic providing a software for Mac which is splitting the MCV files?
I'll be in contact with them in Germany during the week and will ask them.
Or someone is coming up with a hardware solution to split the HDMI 1.4 out of the Z10000 into left/right...
Best regards,
Jürgen

Juergen, you're right, just splitting the AVCHD files needn't be this complex and I wouldn't do this just to edit AVCHD 2.0. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic are writing an MVC to L/R utility as they did with MTS support for FCP but who knows when it will be ready? I have asked this question as well and will be visiting their UK offices on Feb 1st but if you could find out from them in Germany that would be great.

However, I'm also interested in bypassing the camera compression and going straight to Pro-res or uncompressed as I suspect the quality of the new sensor in the Z10000 is superb (even though it is still 8-bit) so this is a bit of thinking aloud.

Cheers

Neil

I still think that you have be aware that all the issues you mention do not exist for the PC world. For the PC world, we got Vegas Pro 11 who recocnises the native MVC files from the Z10000 in a fine way as 3D streams. We got Cyberlinks Powerdirector 10 - can also handle the Z10000 files. And we will have Edius 3D what is now available as Preview-Version build 4.

The hardware solution can be great, also for the PC user if you wish to captures the footage without compression. But still a little bit expensive.... :)

Maybe I'm missing something, Wolfgang, but why is it so difficult for video software producers to make a universal binary that runs on both PC and Mac? Most of the rest of the industry seems to manage it. The distinction between Mac and PC from that point of view disappeared years ago when Apple switched to Intel processors.

To my opinion, Jobs did great in the early days when he developed the first Mac with a graphical interface (an idea that he "got" from Canon when I remember right, as you can read in his biography). But they failed to open their standard - and that was the opportunity for the PC world to become significant stronger in the long run - in terms of number of user and number of PCs sold.

Maybe the answer today is that due to that it is more attractive to develop such niche-solutions (as 3D editing is still today) for the PC world, as done by Sony Creative Consulting, Cyberlink or now Grass Valley. That is fine, but for sure I do not know if there is any MVC-decoder but also MVC-encoder that runs on the Mac - but that is what you need to edit 3D footage from the Z10000).

Unfortunately that does not help really. I wish you that somebody will develop that.

These guys seem to have one:

MVC SDK: MainConcept (http://www.mainconcept.com/products/sdks/3d/blu-ray-3dmvc-sdk.html)

Says Win/OSX/Linux support although a post said it was $4k...

has anyone tried EDIUS 3D for editing these files?

also - to anyone who has/used this camera. Does it record to MVC in one file, or do u have to record to two cards one for L one for R?

thanks

Edius 3D will edit the MVC files from the Z10000.

The camcorder records in one single file - it is an MVC file that can be edited in Vegas Pro 11, Edius 3D, PD10, Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11 (if you use the mvc-Decoder from Vegas Pro). I am not sure if you can edit that footage also in Magix Pro X4.

^awesome that just seals the deal

thank you dear sir

Yes, Edius 3D (free beta) certainly does the job, although it's Win7 only.

A friend edited some 3D Z10000 footage of mine in Edius and it was all very straightforward. I had a good look at Edius at the BVE show in London and was very impressed so I have downloaded the beta.

I am just about to install Win7 (running under VirtualBox, free from Oracle) on my Mac and see if I can get it all to work :)

By the way I bought the Z10000 (and a Teradek Cube) and have just shot a 5-day film wth it, but I may have mentioned that elsewhere...

i am editing on the beta of edius 3d as well

i really wish adobe premier had one solution and you could export to SIDE BY SIDE from premiere- without any other 3rd party softare

as of now, i can edit the MVC in preimere 5.5 and export it as the MVC and it looks amazing on the tv/computer

only issue is.. it does not do export to SIDE BY SIDE

i need to offer my customers a SIDE BY SIDE option as well as the MVC option

Did anyone actually try uncompressed 3d capture ?
Either
Camera -> US3D -> MBP
or
Camera -> US3D -> 2x Hypershuttle

Would really appreciate news on this. The thread was promising but no one posted follow-ups.