I shoot at 30p with the XF300 (and, for that matter with the T3i supplemental shots).

I'm wondering: how important do most folks consider the 180˚ rule (keeping shutter speed to 1/60 at 30fps and 1/48 at 24fps, for example) for that "filmic" look?

Outdoor shots, for example, when it's sunny or even hazy, if you're looking to keep the iris pretty open (to get shallower depth of field), there's no way one could keep shutter at 60. But, if you stop down this becomes more possible, but you lose some shallowness of depth of field.

With DSLR, it's a nice thing to keep the shutter at 60 outdoors, because this allows you to get RID or some of that extreme shallowness of DOF.

So, I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on this and how strictly you keep to the "rule" -- if at all.

There isn't any serious problem with moving up to 1/60. My personal limit is about 1/125 (and I won't go there unless there is a compelling reason). Above that and it looks too much like an effect has been applied.

95% of what I shoot is 180 degree @ 24fps.

I recommend getting some ND filters to keep your settings where you want them. The difference in 1/50 and 1/100 is only 1 stop of ND.

Kind of a two part question and ill touch both since i use a 7D and XF300...

My disclaimer is i normally dont go for the film look with the 300.

The 300 gets a 180 shutter for me in two situations and for different reasons. I do a ton of greenscreen and the shutter reduces motion blur making the keys much easier. The thing that makes this possible is i have strong enough lighting in my studio. And as mentioned, outdoors, in place of the onboard ND filters but i never more than 120. (at 30p) The ND works really well so usually its 180 deg and nd 2.

I use a Singh Ray variable ND on my 7D outdoors and iso 100, f4-f6.4(range) and generally 180 shutter. I cant imagine not having the variable ND as it makes setting exposure so easy. Since i shoot with a bunch of lenses, i bought a 77mm and step down rings for 67 and 58. Basically dial in the DOF and control light with the ND.

Thanks for the helpful replies. As I use the T3i more, will definitely be looking toward an ND filter.

The 180-degree rule has nothing to do with shutter speeds. It's about how you set your cameras up on axis with the subject(s).

Regarding shutter speed, traditionally it should be double your frame-rate ... but it really doesn't matter with DSLR's.

He is referring to shutter angle and rather ironically you just recommended a 180 degree one

Hi, Travis,
No, there actually is one for shutter speeds, too. The first time I heard it, I had your same reaction.

Yes, the 180 plane/axis is the more spoken of in common parlance about general cinematography and film making, but the 180 degree rule that I was referring to in this thread was the one regarding shutter speed. The basic premise goes back to the original mechanics of the shutter and how many times its closing per frame looks pleasing to the eye.

P.S. But, to Travis' point, It would be neat though to hear if folks ever consciously abide by the 180
Degree/axis positioning rule in weddings. (that would negate having a cam both in the balcony and in the choir behind the couple -- or completely encircling the first dance.

The 180-degree rule has nothing to do with shutter speeds. It's about how you set your cameras up on axis with the subject(s).

Regarding shutter speed, traditionally it should be double your frame-rate ... but it really doesn't matter with DSLR's.

As mentioned, 180 deg shutter is a different term than 180 deg rule. The shutter controls light and motion blur. And shutter speed is absolutely critical on DSLRs. If you use it like you're shooting stills (super high for outdoors or speeds that aren't multiples of your frame rate) you will end up with strobing and other motion anomalies. I made that mistake when I first had my hands on a DSLR and since learning the rules (thank you dvinfo.net) my DSLR video now looks perfect.

When in doubt, always stick to the 180 degree shutter rule. However, don't be afraid to break it if for a specific purpose. For example, if you have a very static shot (ie an extreme close-up of a posed shot) that you would like to have shallow DOF for, then you can use a higher shutter and it will likely go un-noticed. Like many 'rules' it's there to be broken in the right circumstances - It's all about balancing movement agianst shutterspeed. The more movement there is, the more critical the 180 degree shutter rule becomes.

It would be neat though to hear if folks ever consciously abide by the 180
Degree/axis positioning rule in weddings. (that would negate having a cam both in the balcony and in the choir behind the couple -- or completely encircling the first dance.

I generally try to stick to the 180 degree line rule and avoid 'crossing the line.' Although the example you gave of encircling the first dance doesn't really break the rule - assuming you are talking about walking aroung the couple in a circle using a steadicam or stabiliser - becuase one of the excpetions to crossing the line is if you physically move the camera during a shot, so the audience sees the camera cross the line and understands that the perspective in the scene is changing.

Re: the shutter, I will go as high as 1/125 and as low as 30, even though 30 is still a bit weird to me. I understand that a fast shutter and resulting jittery effect can be used creatively, such as action scenes or anything with fast movement, but in my opinion (no-one bite my head off) it has become a bit cliche with weddings. I don't know if its a case of people not wanting it invest in ND filters, but fast shutter speeds seem to be popping up everywhere. I think that one of the best parts of film is the right amount of motion blur, and unless I have a solid reason for it, I want to keep the shutter speed in the 1/30-1/50 range.

P.S. But, to Travis' point, It would be neat though to hear if folks ever consciously abide by the 180. Degree/axis positioning rule in weddings. (that would negate having a cam both in the balcony and in the choir behind the couple -- or completely encircling the first dance.

The 180 degree rule is very important to me. There are few things that will take an audience out of the piece more than a broken 180 degree rule. You don't even need a film background, or know that the rule exists, to be effected. When you have a scene where two people are talking, and the viewer doesn't have to move their eyes when you cut between scenes, it feels weird. Whether you're Kubrick or some Joe Schmo off the street.

That being said, there are safe ways to cross the 180. For example, the problem we always come into is that we have two cameras at the side of the church, and one in the main aisle shooting straight on. During the vows - no problem. We can cut back and forth between the two side cameras with no issues. We can cut to the centre camera with no issues. But during the readings or when the officiant is speaking, it becomes more tricky. If one side camera is shooting the speaker or officiant, and the other is shooting the bride and groom, no matter which side camera does which, everyone is looking the same way in the frame. If we cut from a side camera, to the middle camera, to the other side camera, we're safe.

Two ways to cross safely that come to mind right off the bat are to physically move the camera over the line, and cut to a wide shot before cutting back in. There are a few other ways, but it's early and I can't think of them. Brain isn't fully awake yet.

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. Maybe this would be best in a new thread?

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. Maybe this would be best in a new thread?

Haha, we've actually talked about this before somewhere, but I'm too lazy to do a search.

I've thrown out the 180-degree "crossing the line" rule for weddings. The audience is the B&G, their family and friends who already know how a church is set up and who was where -- you're not trying to entertain and general audience and hold their "suspension of disbelief". The rule much more applies to drama and other events where continuity between cameras is very important -- sports, plays, etc. But something like wedding ceremonies and receptions do not need this rule.

Hi, Travis,
No, there actually is one for shutter speeds, too. The first time I heard it, I had your same reaction.

I've known of doubling your shutter speed (and used to always do it) but just never heard it referred to as the '180 degree rule', lol. Still, I would say with DSLRs it's not necessary. I've shot with shutter speeds from 30 to 4000 and the imagery is just fine.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Shane Hurlbut ASC has been DoP of all sorts of major films (Terminator Salvation, Swing Vote, The Greatest Game Ever Played, Mr. 3000, Drumline and more) and he claims that you don't need to double your shutter speed with DSLR's. d;-)

I think that most people are completely oblivious to shutterspeed or motion blur effects even if they are quite obvious to us proffesionals. These days many people consume most of their video content through Youtube or Vimeo, and shoot their video either on a phone or compact camera, so they are used to 30p/24p stuttering video. Just another example of how the Youtube revolution is reprogramming people's expectations of video quality.

However, maybe that is a good reason you should adhere to the 180 degree rule - because it will further seperate your work from the millions of youtube videos, even if it is something subconcious that the audience are not consiously aware of.

By the way, can anybody tell me how to insert the little circle 'degrees' symbol into a post?

ALT + 176 = °

Hold down the ALT key while entering 176 on the keyboard. Then release the ALT key.

This is a great discussion and very helpful.

I would agree that most consumers will probably never really know the difference regarding the adherence to the shutter speed rule (or at least that most of the stuff they see on YouTube etc will muddy their viewer palette), but all the more reason, as one other here said, to have the discussion and have a high standard and enrich the clients' experience.

I'm glad that the 180 plane rule got discussed too. I will keep it more on my mental radar from now on.
No question: I've always found it peculiar to use a camera from behind the couple (in the choir) while ALSO using views from the front and sides. And clearly it comes down to that rule and the reasoning behind it.

When I shoot outdoors at very high shutter speed, rather than using a ND filter, things don't look right. I don't know what is wrong, can't even describe it, but it looks less crisp, more video like, kind of crappy in a general way. Like I said, can't describe it.

If I can keep my shutter speed closer to 120, or even under 200 or so, I feel better about it, but I have no proof of any kind it is better.

I'm sorry but I don't care who Shane is, he's wrong. If you shoot 4000 shutter with 24p or 30p your footage will look like you're storming the beach of Normandy in a Tom Hanks film or very close to it. If you don't notice how choppy that high a shutter setting makes your footage you probably need to develop a more discerning eye. The only way to get away with that kind of shutter setting is if there is almost no movement in the frame.

I'm sorry but I don't care who Shane is, he's wrong.

If you want to disagree with a renowned Hollywood DoP then be my guest. d;-p

I have much love for you Travis but considering you hadn't ever heard of the 180 degree shutter rule I wouldn't follow anyone blindly if I were you. d;-P

My own eyes tell me that jacking up the shutter on a DSLR has a serious effect on the motion quality of the video I shoot... Hollywood people pimp diets and political point of views too, that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow them just cause they are "renowned" and from hollywood. How 'bout providing a link to this guy saying that. Somehow I think that something was lost in translation from what he really said to what you attributed to him.

And to be clear, I did say that if there is very little movement you can probably get away with extremely high shutter settings. If you shoot people walking or running or any kind of action at 4000 shutter though it will look insanely choppy and IMO crappy.

Just re-read what you post. Shane saying that you don't have to be at 180 degrees is very different from you saying shutter is basically irrelevant and saying that it's ok to shoot at 4000 shutter. Going to 200 with 24p and 30p material is about the limit I've ever heard anyone being comfortable using and when my own eyes tell me is the limit without going into Saving Private Ryan territory. 4000 is like using ludicrous speed. d;-P

EDIT: ok I just found a video where mister Shane Hurlbut himself says to shoot at 50 shutter for (I think) 30p because it's 200 degree shutter.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid708657963001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAnrRezuk~,rpOocknmAisI8b09HuQPrmw2Fkai85va&bclid=708669963001&bctid=805735167001

Here is a guy breaking down what shutter is.
http://blog.tylerginter.com/?p=385

As with most rules, they can be broken and the manufacturers have given us the ability to do so regarding shutter speed.
Same thing as a car manufacturer allowing it's vehicle to do 150mph. Can you break the speed limit? Of course and my insurance reminds me of all my tickets by charging me a ton of money.
Can you shoot at whatever shutter speed you want? Of course! And when your video gets looked at by people with critical eyes, it's not gonna look right and you'd better be able to explain why. And that you meant to make your video stutter as an effect.
I had to drill this into a guys head that shot some broll for me with a 5D. I double checked his shutter speeds to make sure he was set right and woila! The cameras matched and the video looked great! The ONLY time I have not followed the rules is when I shoot propeller or rotor driven aircraft (which I do a lot) understanding shutter speeds is critical. If you just blindly set it, you could do all sorts of weird things to the propellers or rotors.

Travis, do whatever makes you happy! Several of my shoots have aired nationally. Proof I did my job right is how good it looks on TV. Shows with less experienced DSLR shooters stick out like a sore thumb.

So, for those who want to constrain our shutter speeds is it safe to say that when shooting 60p that 50 to 120 is a decent, safe range? How high can one go and expect reasonably good results? 200? Anyone?

I have much love for you Travis but considering you hadn't ever heard of the 180 degree shutter rule I wouldn't follow anyone blindly if I were you. d;-P

I already said I HAD heard of it but just hadn't heard of it referred to by that name. As I said earlier, I used to practice it. I've shot plenty with DSLR's now and experimented a lot and you DO NOT HAVE to shoot at 1/50th.

Can I see the difference between 30 and 4000? Yeah. But as you referred to earlier, 'Saving Private Ryan' had a high-shutter look. Boy was that movie a flop. d;-p

Feel free to post a link to one of your videos that has a major fight scene where a shutter of 4000 looks cool. BTW, mimicking the saving private ryan look only puts your shutter between 300 and 500 so 4000 is still ridiculous. I've seen enough of your work to know you aren't shooting high shutter for effect, you're doing because you choose not to use ND filters like Shane Hulbut recommends. You should maybe listen to him a little more closely. I mean he is a big time DoP from hollywood and all. d;P

For the record I have no problem with you shooting however you want. I could care less. But I do have a problem with you telling someone, who came on the board asking for advice, that shutter speeds don't matter with DSLRs. I mean c'mon you have to see that that's just bad right? mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

So, for those who want to constrain our shutter speeds is it safe to say that when shooting 60p that 50 to 120 is a decent, safe range? How high can one go and expect reasonably good results? 200? Anyone?

60 shutter with 60p will look smeary with movement. 120 should be your minimum with 60p unless you have to go lower for some reason out of your control like not enough light.

mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

Judging by all the DSLR wedding trailers I've seen on this forum... focusing IS indeed optional. :-p

Judging by all the DSLR wedding trailers I've seen on this forum... focusing IS indeed optional. :-p

That's funny! Mean... but still funny. :)

60 shutter with 60p will look smeary with movement.Not in my experience. You get just as much motion blur in every frame as you would shooting 1/60th with 30p (which follows the 180 degree rule) or 1/60th with 24p or....well, you get the idea. It is the amount of motion blur that determines how smeary the movement will look. Think about it.

The 180 degree shutter rule was developed as a guideline for 24p capture. It need not, indeed should not, be applied for other capture rates. Use whatever gives you the _appropriate_ amount of motion blur.

For the record I have no problem with you shooting however you want. I could care less. But I do have a problem with you telling someone, who came on the board asking for advice, that shutter speeds don't matter with DSLRs. I mean c'mon you have to see that that's just bad right? mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

If there is one thing I'm good at it's being misunderstood online. I never intended to say that shutter speeds don't matter AT ALL. I simply was trying to say that the old rule of always having to double your shutter speed isn't necessary.

Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want. But there's no way that people shooting with DSLR's should feel they ALWAYS have to shoot at 1/50th if they're shooting 24p.

You're not making sense. The 180 degree shutter rule is 2 times the frame rate. for 60p it's 120 shutter not 60. Not sure how you think it's just the shutter that determines motion blur. It's the shutter in combination with the frame rate and the amount of available light.

If there is one thing I'm good at it's being misunderstood online. I never intended to say that shutter speeds don't matter AT ALL. I simply was trying to say that the old rule of always having to double your shutter speed isn't necessary.

Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want. But there's no way that people shooting with DSLR's should feel they ALWAYS have to shoot at 1/50th if they're shooting 24p.

If you would have said that in the first place instead, you could have saved me a lot of typing. :)

I'm a 'special' child. d;-)

Scott, regarding doubling shutter speed, I should know better than to have been running at lower shutter speeds, as someone (maybe you, maybe someone else) already handed out this information, but my mindset was stuck at 1/60th because of camcorder days. Well, I learned yesterday that was a huge mistake.

I've been running at 1/60th for months, and yesterday ran it higher and instantly saw improvement. My footage looks MUCH better. I only raised it to 1/80th, so I can't imagine how much better it might look at 120. Man I feel dumb.

You're not making sense. The 180 degree shutter rule is 2 times the frame rate. for 60p it's 120 shutter not 60. Not sure how you think it's just the shutter that determines motion blur. It's the shutter in combination with the frame rate and the amount of available light.No. The amount of time the shutter is open determines the amount of motion blur in each frame. Period. Now, I do recognize that how motion is rendered is also affected by the capture rate. With a higher capture rate you need less motion blur. However, that doesn't change the physical fact that I stated. Nor that you get the same amount of motion blur in all three cases I stated.

I gotta say, for weddings...Heck for most things I shoot I gotta agree with Travis. Sure it gives a different look, but my clients don't notice or care, and my footage still looks good. I love flying shots at high shutter speeds!

I would never waste my time on a wedding fiddleing around with ND's. There's way too much important stuff for me to shoot.

I like what Travis said: "Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want." It's all about how it looks to you and to your customers. You should choose any combination of frame rate and shutter speed that gives you the look you're after. And you should also feel free to change those settings depending on exactly what you're recording, assuming you're not too busy to fiddle with settings. (Changing frame rate will complicate things in post, however.) You shouldn't feel beholden to a "rule" if it limits your creativity, especially one that was invented for a specific case (24p capture).

PS. The above assumes a clear understanding of how frame rate and shutter speed affect the look, i.e. that one is making an informed decision.

I like filming the reception dancing at 125 shutter bc it gives a cool night club effect feel when their is a DJ with dance floor lights. Outdoors, I'll constantly shoot up to 4000 on a bright sunny day.

Alen, So, I realize now I think we're talking about 2 different things... If you shoot 60p and place in a 24p timeline with no speed adjustment then you will want 60 shutter. But if you're shooting 60p as an overcrank method that will then be conformed to 24 or 30p you have to (should) observe the 180 degree rule and use 120 shutter. When the 60p is "slowed" down for use in the 24 or 30p timeline the shutter will then "look" correct and match any footage shot at 24 or 30p originally with a 50 or 60 shutter speed.

David, I'm sorry but if you think ND filters are a waste of time then I guess we differ in what we'll do for the films we create for our clients. They are so quick to put on and take off. Just curious... when is the bar that you reach for in your work just set at what your clients notice? If that were the case you could probably just shoot with an handycam depending on the client. Our standard is always what we notice not what we think a client might notice.

The great thing about this forum is seeing all the different practices being used around the world. Different videographers will use different equipment and means to achieve results that are pleasing to themselves and their clients. I don't see much value in criticizing/bashing another's standards -- especially if the work they are putting out is satisfactory to them and their clients. The look of video is highly subjective, and everyone will have an opinion.

That being said, I always shoot at 1/60 shutter. I'll use ND filters when it's convenient and I don't have better things to do at the moment. I love the look I get, regardless.

David, I'm sorry but if you think ND filters are a waste of time then I guess we differ in what we'll do for the films we create for our clients. They are so quick to put on and take off. Just curious... when is the bar that you reach for in your work just set at what your clients notice? If that were the case you could probably just shoot with an handycam depending on the client. Our standard is always what we notice not what we think a client might notice.

Scott, when I shoot a wedding, the most important thing for me is content, the second most important thing for me is overall quality, the third most important is my comfortability, mobility, and simplicity which enhances my enjoyment of the wedding (and my job), the 4th most important thing is quality that the client wont notice or care about. When I see fast shutter speeds it doesnt make me think of war movies, it makes me think of action, and heightened senses, which just so happens to go hand in hand with the flying shots I do during the day, and for more static shots with less movement you dont notice (referencing another poster in this thread) so in a sense me using a higher shutter actually IS done for a creative reason almost.

Thats my opinion based on how I shoot weddings. You can do what you want but I dont really appreciate your haughty tone and what you insinuate about me in that paragraph. Thanks.

Interesting to me that "handycam" is being used in such a negative sense. I realize it's now a generic term for "consumer camcorder with automatic settings," not specifically those from Sony, but have you looked closely at consumer camcorders lately? There are some quite decent models out there now ranging in price from $400 to $1000 USD. Resolution, noise levels, color accuracy, sensitivity, controls (many have manual modes, or at the very least priority modes) have all improved enormously over the last couple of years. Download some examples of native output from Vimeo uploads that provide them (mostly from those members with Vimeo Plus accounts) and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

While consumer camcorders don't provide all the on-camera controls a pro needs for quick reaction while shooting (one of the many reasons the pro cameras cost what they do) there is little reason to denigrate their output. Sure, the footage that Aunt Sue gets from her "handycam" won't be near as good as yours, but the reason has less to do with the fact she left it on automatic and more to do with everything else you've learned as a videographer that she doesn't know.

With all due respect to anyone in this thread, it really bugs me when people talk about not correcting a mistake because they think the client won't notice. Does being a professional not mean recognizing and addressing problems that a non-professional would not notice? If we're not going to worry about things like proper shutter speeds, or anything else that the couple may not pick up on, then why are we being chosen to cover these events instead of a relative with a camcorder?

I don't care what the couple notices or doesn't notice, I'm going to give it my all and give the client the best product that I can deliver. "They'll never notice that anyway..." isn't in my vocabulary on a wedding day.

When I was in school one of my teachers said something that stuck with me. The topic of the lesson was exporting and he was going through the software options. When we came to one pass vs two pass encoding, he said, "I don't care if it takes an extra 2 days for a 2% increase in quality, I'm picking two pass."

(Disclaimer: I know that a fast shutter speed is a creative choice, I'm just using that example because it's being discussed in this thread. You could replace it with any number of things. I'm talking about a general attitude, not technical specifics.)

Hi Matthew,

There's a big difference between mistakes and creative choices. No one said anything about ignoring mistakes because the client won't notice; the conversation has been more geared toward whether or not clients will appreciate or even notice the effect of different frame rates. Again, it's very subjective.

You're right about aiming for the best quality possible, but there are of course limits you must impose for the sake of keeping yourself out of the red. I don't rent $100,000 cameras with cranes, bring a full sound and lighting crew, and spend months in a multi-million-dollar editing bay for a wedding because it doesn't make financial sense -- not because I don't want to do the best job I possibly can.

With all due respect to anyone in this thread, it really bugs me when people talk about not correcting a mistake because they think the client won't notice. Does being a professional not mean recognizing and addressing problems that a non-professional would not notice? If we're not going to worry about things like proper shutter speeds, or anything else that the couple may not pick up on, then why are we being chosen to cover these events instead of a relative with a camcorder?I note the "with all due respect" but you are presenting an either-or situation that leaves no room for the "relative with a camcorder" that _does_ happen to notice things the couple may not pick up on (not that I'm taking this personally <g>). In my case, I'm spending an inordinate amount of time in editing fixing the rookie mistakes I made during my second wedding shoot (haven't edited the first yet), things I know the couple either won't notice or not care about if they do notice, just because I can't stand to leave them in there. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I don't like to see mistakes, even small ones, in anything I author (google my name).

if I was shooting film, or if shutter speed gave a look that I didnt like to my footage then I wouldn't do it. But I like the way it looks at high shutter speeds, and it doesn't really matter to me if it's bad form or whatever. if there was enough light I'd shoot high all the time. Thats just me.