I need a mic to go at the front of the stage for plays when the actors are not individually mic'd.
Would stereo or mono be a better choise? and does any one have a favorite they like to use that will pick up vocals across a stage well? (plugging into a recorder, or running XLR back to one cam)

Thanks
Ben

Ben,

The mic you imagine does not exist.

Mics sit in one location and when a sound wave hits them - they turn it into a tiny, tiny electrical current that amplifiers make larger to store on a recorder or send to the PA system.

The problem is that the original sound follows the principals of physics. Particularly the part of physics described by the "inverse square principal" - which dictates that as distance increases between the sound source and the microphone - the sound drops in strength in a fashion that follows inverse square math.

On stage. a mic at point X (middle front of the stage) that is 1 foot from the mouth of the KID A speaking puts out a signal strength that we'll call "ideal"

Kid B - 10 feet away to one side (10 times the original distance) - speaking every bit as loud as KID A is generating a mic signal that is 100 times quieter. Kid C who is fifteen feet away from the mic, will generate a signal nearly 225 times quieter!

The kind and type of mic doesn't matter in this basic, simplified but very real world situation. Sounds falls off VERY fast over distance - so a single mic covering a large physical area is doomed to generate lousy results.

And worse, if you simply put up a few mics and greatly boost their signals to compensate for distance - stuff like footsteps, clothing rustle, audience sounds and even the hum of the air conditioning equipment rapidly get annoyingly loud.

It's a can't win situation.

On broadway - with unlimited funds, they put a mic on each and every performer.

For school stage work, you typically hang as many overhead wide coverage mics as you can - and hope for the best.

That's just how this stuff works.

I like to use a Crown PZM mic. They work really well for me because it a small very intimate play house. I combine this with a good shotgun mic and it does the trick.
Oliver! NX5U SD footage on Vimeo

I do not disagree with Bill's comments. I particularly agree that a single recording device (be it a stereo mic or a device like a Zoom H1) will not work very well in picking up performers on the edges of the pick-up pattern and in the back of the stage. One of the biggest problems I've seen is clipping on the actors standing front and center while others on the sides and back may fade to inaudibility or being garbled.

You asked about a stereo mic or other single device. I would avoid that unless the program is all blocked for the middle of the stage. Otherwise, the pick-up patterns for a single device is just too narrow. It will be problematic for all the reasons Bill pointed out. While some stereo recording devices (say, zoom H1 or H4) are shorter and therefore have a wider pattern, the mics are too small and the distances are often too great to avoid the problems.

Second, you do not necessarily need to hang mics, but I have found that was be a good way way to mic some small stage productions that I have shot. There were a number of production last Christmas where I was able to run some high test fishing line above the stage platform in an other wise open room. I had my two UHF omni-lavaliers plus some older VHF lavaliers that I was able to borrow, and it worked reasonably well for both amplifying the performers for the hall as well as providing a stage feed to the cameras. (I also got interesting on-video commentary from some of the younger performers who did not realize they were chatting under a mic.) This set-up certainly can be vulnerable to noise from lighting ballasts, HVAC, and all the things that Bill mentioned. Especially the paper-shuffling-coughers in the front row seats next to the screaming babies who always seem to be front and center in these kinds of events. The audio was not PBS broadcast quality but was quite acceptable for the DVDs being made for friends and family of the performers.

Third, where I have an actual stage, I would suggest using at least two mics. I've had pretty good luck I've with using a crossed pair of AT877 shotguns mics on stands in front of the stage. That is, the stands are on the floor in front of the stage, not positioned on the stage itself. I have use this in a several of our local theater venues. (Think a theater with seating for 250) Basically, I cross the AT877 shotguns low and in front of the stage with the XLR cables going to a locked down cam that I've positioned for full wide from stage left or right. Angled across the stage, this combination picks up about the middle 60% of the stage. These are stages where it is simply not feasible for me to hang any mikes over the stage.

For some of the larger productions on those stages -- where performers may be speaking from all parts of the stage --- I've put the shotguns at the front outside corners of the stage aimed at the opposite stage rear corner. Front and center, I've put my two wireless lavaliers on an improvised "t" bar on a mic stand. These get fed to another camera. It is easiest to run everything in mono, but I have, in editing, split each channel into separate tracks, and fiddled a bit with panning to fabricate a stereo image. Again, not PBS production quality, but good enough for the friends and family buying DVDs of the performances. By positioning the mics on stands and keeping them off the stage, I limit the amount of thumping from footsteps. The operative word is "limit" not "eliminate."

Are these things "best practices?" Of course not. When I speak of "success," I am talking about recording community theater productions, school stage productions, and similar kinds of events. I am talking about making the best of what you have to hand. I am not talking about optimum recording ability --- largely pointless in these situations for reasons like unmitigable HVAC noise and etc. as Bill pointed out.

I've had pretty good results using 3 Crown PZMs taped to the front edge of the stage. While footfall can be a bit of an issue, particularly with a large cast and lots of dance or movement, overall I have been quite pleased. I've also used my shotguns, similarly to how Jay deploys his with pretty good results. I'm running all the mics into a 6 channel field mixer and when using the shotguns, I have to really pay attention to the levels.

I shot a little bit of a production of DOUBT to promote the production for a small equity theatre. The venue was small enough that the actors were not mic'd but not so small that I could get away with shotguns on the cameras at the back of the house. I used the PZMs and they were very effective. I'll post a sample later today.

I agree it's not the best course of action, but when I do have to mic the front of the stage I'll use an AT4021 on a stand (sometimes in a pencil-mic-style shockmount), and always with at least a foam windscreen.

I too agree with Bill but since that isn't what you asked, I'll suggest that barrier mics will work better than PZMs and yes I would suggest more than one, each going into a discrete record channel so you don't have phase cancellation and bring up the best mic in post at any given time.

Oh... and you may STILL have phase cancellation if two people are speaking at the same time if the distances between mics and performers don't "add up"...

If hanging mics, make sure to watch out for lighting cable crossing with your XLR cables. Dimmer packs on lighting grids (especially "old school" dimmers on tungsten instruments) are NOTORIOUS for contributing RF noise, even in balanced cable runs...

Thanks everybody, Great info!......... Jay I don't see an AT877 when I search B&H?, maybe discontinued?

Ben

I just shot a theater play, here are the results of
1. On camera stereo mic to capture the audience reaction
2. Bartlett stage mic in front of stage to pick up ensemble and orchestra
3. Wireless mic on talent (Dorothy)

‪Wizard of Oz (Ending)‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TdH50g4QE4)

First half of the video is on camera mic only, to get the audience. When Dorothy sings, it's the wireless only. When the rest of the cast sings, the Bartlett picks up the entire ensemble and orchestra. The Bartlett TM-125HP is similar in design to a Crown PZM, but supposedly smaller, cheaper, and higher performance. You can see the Bartlett in between those two shotguns at the front of the stage (those shotguns were theater mics, not mine) look how small, flat, and inconspicuous it is! I tested the Bartlett against a Sony shotgun, and the Bartlett was much cleaner sounding. I'm very happy with the Bartlett, will pick up another for stereo recording.

http://www.bartlettmics.com/tm125hp.html

I'll suggest that barrier mics will work better than PZMs

By "barrier" mics, do you mean the same as "boundary" mics? And if so, how is that different from a PZM? I thought PZM was just Crown's trademark name for a boundary mic.

See this link: http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/EV_PABible-16-Add15-Barrier_Miking-1985.pdf

"I thought PZM was just Crown's trademark name for a boundary mic."
It is.
I guess EV just uses the term "barrier" instead of "boundary".

I've shot a few plays, both musical and non-musical. I use 4 mics (actually 3 - 1 stereo and 2 mono), however if I could only use one, it would be a stereo, set at the front center lip of the stage, pointed towards the heads of the actors.

I use and live my Rode NT-4 right in the center. It picked up a good portion of the center of the stage. But there is often a lot going on at the sides too. So I have either the Rode NT3 (not NTG-3) on the sides, or possibly the NT5 (or55), which has the same capsule as the NT-4.

Because stage managers are usually babies that need to control everything, they usually want the mics invisible. That's why they are at the lip of the stage, or a few inches higher. And I put black felt in them to hide them. I don't like that most rode mics are silver.

Anyway, with my 4 mic array (or 3 mic if you count stereo as one) I have found I capture the stage fairly well. I'm sure there are better placements, but in reality all I've been aloud to do is put stuff right in front of the stage.

PZM = (Pressure Zone Microphone)

That Bartlett looks like a Crown PCC160 knock off, which is an excellent choice for stage mic-ing. so more than likely very similar performance characteristics.

Best way I've found to use PZMs is mounted to music stands in front of the stage (not on it) angled a bit towards the actors. I have seen a plexiglass mic stand adapter that the PZMs attach to as well...can't remember where though. They might have been custom made. Keeping the PZMs off the stage eliminates footsteps.

Still not a complete solution but it can help supplement others.

I've been lucky enough to work with groups that mic every actor. Still need a very good sound person to get it right.

PZM = (Pressure Zone Microphone)

That Bartlett looks like a Crown PCC160 knock off, which is an excellent choice for stage mic-ing. so more than likely very similar performance characteristics.
As I recall, Bruce Bartlett worked for Crown for quite a while, so I would suspect Bartlett's mic would have similar attributes of the Crown PCC160.
FWIW, I used to use a pair of Crown PCC160s on grand pianos in a 'closed lid' situations. Always sounded pretty nice and the isolation was a bonus.

I've shot a few plays, both musical and non-musical. I use 4 mics (actually 3 - 1 stereo and 2 mono), however if I could only use one, it would be a stereo, set at the front center lip of the stage, pointed towards the heads of the actors.

I use and live my Rode NT-4 right in the center. It picked up a good portion of the center of the stage. But there is often a lot going on at the sides too. So I have either the Rode NT3 (not NTG-3) on the sides, or possibly the NT5 (or55), which has the same capsule as the NT-4.

Because stage managers are usually babies that need to control everything, they usually want the mics invisible. That's why they are at the lip of the stage, or a few inches higher. And I put black felt in them to hide them. I don't like that most rode mics are silver.

Anyway, with my 4 mic array (or 3 mic if you count stereo as one) I have found I capture the stage fairly well. I'm sure there are better placements, but in reality all I've been aloud to do is put stuff right in front of the stage.


Please be careful here.

Your phrase "Because stage managers are usually babies that need to control everything..."
ignores the fact that that is PRECISELY the JOB a stage manager is hired to do.

A stage manager is essentially the CONDUCTOR of the backstage cast and crew. They don't write the music, nor play it. But they MUST coordinate it and create an organized environment where everyone can do their work effectively.

Your assertion is as hollow as saying - "Doctors are usually babies that need to try to heal everyone..."

Respecting the roles of others, is, after all, the first step in earning respect for your own role.

For what it's worth.

I agree with Bill, although certainly there are some percentage of stage managers that exhibit behavior that would get you banned from most professions...

But my respect for their position is why I always ask them (the stage manager always seems to be the nearest person in authority) if they really intended to have one or more of their PCC-160's facing into the audience rather than toward the stage when I'm putting my own front of stage mics in place.

A look of surprise, and then slow realization usually crosses their face as they come to understand why the audio from that side of the stage has been so bad for practice and dress rehearsals...

By "barrier" mics, do you mean the same as "boundary" mics? And if so, how is that different from a PZM? I thought PZM was just Crown's trademark name for a boundary mic.

I'm used to seeing a "plate" mic such as Crown's PZM 30D referred to as a PZM while a boundary mic (not barrier, which is a mic technique... my bad!) has (in my world) referred to a mic like the AT U851RO.

Just to clarify, I designed the PCC-160 at Crown, the TM-125 at Bartlett Microphones, and the Stage Floor Mic at Bartlett Audio. All are stage-floor mics, boundary mics with a supercardioid polar pattern. The Crown PZM is a boundary mic with an omnidirectional polar pattern.

If mics that are spaced apart on the floor are mixed to mono, that can result in some comb filtering when the actor's sound reaches two mics at different times and is fairly equal in level at both mics (less than 9 dB difference). But if those same mics are recorded and reproduced in stereo, you get stereo imaging instead of comb filtering. That's one way to prevent comb filtering with spaced mics.

Each boundary mic is designed to prevents the comb filtering that would occur if the mic were above the stage floor, as on a desk stand. Direct sound from an actor, and the delayed sound reflection off the floor, combine at the mic to create phase interference and comb filtering -- unless the mic capsule is right next to the boundary and is small enough so any phase interference occurs above the audio range.

So there are two possible causes of comb filtering: comb filtering due to phase interference between two mics, and comb filtering due to phase interference between direct and reflected sound at a single microphone.

Hope this helps,

Bruce Bartlett
Bartlett Audio

I like to use a Crown PZM mic. They work really well for me because it a small very intimate play house. I combine this with a good shotgun mic and it does the trick.
Oliver! NX5U SD footage on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/23494397)

I can hear every footfall.

Thread necromancy alert!

If the floor is wood, and has a bit of bounce, and the boundary mic placed on it, then yes, you can often hear the thumping. However a thin bit of foam works pretty well to decouple the bottom plate from the floor.

Rather than PZM mics, I would suggest a directional boundary mic. The one I usually go for is the Sanken CUB-1. You'll never have a stage person complain about looks because it is very small and difficult to see (the element is only about an inch or so across and perhaps half an inch high). They are more expensive than the PCC 160 by a fair amount, but it will also sound a whole lot better. For a situation like this, I usually place 3-4 of them across the front of the stage. That way there is good coverage, you don't get lots of audience or pit noise and you don't upset the folks that are running the show.

http://www.sanken-mic.com/en/product/product.cfm/1.1005000

--Ben

...For a situation like this, I usually place 3-4 of them across the front of the stage. That way there is good coverage, you don't get lots of audience or pit noise and you don't upset the folks that are running the show...Just curious - have you been recording 3 or 4 boundary mics to separate channels, with some care to only have one hot in your post mix, or just mix to one channel during recording?

I've pretty well tried all sorts of systems over the years, and now use odd numbers of boundaries - never evens, because most directors block their shows with important stuff centre, or stage left or right in quite distinct areas. So with a modest width, centre, left and right spaced evenly are in common useful positions. If the stage is extra wide - which for me means more than 8m, in pros width, I up it to 5 mics. Comb filtering can be a problem, but I try not to bring up two mics to the same level, with the actors the same distance from each - this seems to be the worst instance. If the Director's blocking has accidentally made a position bad, I'll usually ask to see if it can be changes, just a few feet being enough. Boundaries work so well, that I give the lions share of gain to the centre mic, with the other mixed in lower - this gives a more natural sound, and the only time I bring up the outer ones would be if they were really the only solution, and then it would be a gradual increase to try to hide the perspective change in the sound. For recordings and live sound, I try to NOT do changes in the balance, it is very difficult to hide.

I'll suggest that barrier mics will work better than PZMs ...
A "PZM" microphone IS a "barrier" microphone. The terminology is "a distinction without a difference".

I remember when they first came out as commercial products. They were "over-promoted" into un-numbered inappropriate applications and people thought they were the new "miracle cure-all". Of course most of us know better now with several decades of hindsight. But newbies continue coming along and "discovering" them and reading the historic hype.
To paraphrase "Scotty" on the Starship Enterprise "ye cannae change the laws of [acoustic] physics!" The inverse square law doesn't care whether you are using a barrier/PZM or shotgun or whatever. Distant micing is always a low-budget kludge substitute for proper micing of dramatic presentations. But if iis all you've got, then good luck, you'll need it.

Just curious - have you been recording 3 or 4 boundary mics to separate channels, with some care to only have one hot in your post mix, or just mix to one channel during recording?

Depends on the gig. I've I'm mixing sound for a show, then I'm following the action with one mic hotter than the others. Keeps the "slop" to a minimum and the dialog/singing/whatever cleaner. If I'm shooting a well, then I'll usually just multitrack and deal with it as a mix in post.

When I do large-scale operas, the concept is the same, but I'll use Schoeps cardiod mics on desk stands with a very transparent preamp (so I can get enough "reach" out of the mics). I'll also plant mics around the set and/or put other mics inside the proscenium to capture more distant or ensemble situations. Sometimes those mics will be either hypercardiod or shotguns.

--Ben

Mr. Mass illustrates an important condition here. Historically, operas were/are performed by people trained to project out into the audience without electronic aid. That makes them much more suitable for distant micing than a typical amateur or semi-pro dramatic presentation.

Indeed, and a common snag with amateurs is the Director's tendency to block shows with the younger better looking ones at the front and the older more, er, lived in people at the back - when the kids might have really awful voices and the best singers are the ones the furthest away. There always seems to be one person with a very loud, distinctive and quite out of tune voice nearest the mics!

Mr. Mass illustrates an important condition here. Historically, operas were/are performed by people trained to project out into the audience without electronic aid. That makes them much more suitable for distant micing than a typical amateur or semi-pro dramatic presentation.

Yes, of course...

However the concepts are the same regardless of the training of the performer. Using an array across the front of the stage. The array captures a combination of near as well as far voices. Then planting microphones elsewhere as needed- there's no shortage of places a mic can be hidden in a stage production. Of course, we are with this entering the realm where you should probably have a dedicated sound person to do a sound design for the shoot as it will quickly become more than just a couple of plant mics will be able to cover.

It is a scalable concept and can work in a number of different ways to fit a production size/budget and expertise. My original post spoke to that a bit more. I find the Sanken CUB01 tends to have better reach and a clearer sound than a PCC160. PZM mics are great for what they are and can have a use, but I wouldn't put them at the edge of the stage because the hemispherical pickup won't be doing you many favors.

--Ben