G'day,

I filmed a wedding yesterday and all seemed to be going well. All outward signs of normal functioning of the EX1R were there, but imagine the sick feeling I got after copying the files to my PC and the XDCAM Clip Browser announced "Some of the files are fragmented. Please copy the files back to the SxS card, return it to the camera and perform a salvage operation"

I did this without success, so I then copied the files back to a genuine SxS card and tried again. This time the camera did execute a recovery - phew!

My MxM card was fitted with one of the recommended brands of SD card, so now I'm going to have to go through a process of elimination to find out which item was the problem. Suffice to say that the adapter and SD card have been put aside (along with two others that I have) and the genuine SxS cards are back in use for the time being. I don't like that sick feeling....

Cheers

Russ

Always test cards when you get them. Even if MxM tests, the manufacturers have been known to change components.

When you first get cards, record end to end straight through without stopping and check the file. Then do the same thing in overcrank and test that. Then do a series of short records and delete some clips along the way. If the results aren't 100% working then don't use that card.

On one occasion I had a file come across corrupted. It was heart in mouth time. However a second copy was absolutely fine as was the five test copies I ran after that.

PC's can do odd things. I suspect in my case the USB bus had been disturbed during the initial copy.

Just a few tips:

Always test your cards before your first shoot with them.

Remember with popular brands there if you buy from an unscrupulous retailer you may be using a forgery. Buy from reputable firms and not Ebay etc. Modern forgeries can look identical and can even be rejects from the manufacturers own factory (pretty sure I posted a link a while back about reject cards being openly sold).

Always format in the camera not on the computer.

Don't delete clips if you can help it. This will fragment the data as the camera will be forced to use the gaps created by the deleted file.

I'd also suggest going to the website for the manufacturer of the cards you've just bought and seek out the page where they show you how to ID a fake card. It's sad that we have to do this, but such is life. I'd also take slight issue with the comment about never simply deleting clips and always doing reformats in-camera. I absolutely do that with my digital stills camera, but I rarely ever reformat my SxS cards as I would lose my camera profiles AND the unique name I give each of my cards.

Good advice there from the other posts.

My MxM card was fitted with one of the recommended brands of SD card.
Russ

Glad to hear all worked out well in the end Ross.

Can I ask, what SDHC card were you using in the adapter at the time?

Hello Anthony.

Sorry for the delay in replying. The cards I purchased are ATP ProMax 32 GB, purchased from a reputable supplier. The card was formatted in the camera before shooting and has been used successfully previously. I am wondering whether heat may have been an issue. This was an outdoor wedding and the camera was in full Sun for quite a while. It was fairly warm to touch.

I really don't know what went wrong, but suffice to say, it doesn't appear that I have lost as much as a single frame. When I get time I will perform some rigorous tests and try and find out what the issue is/was.

Cheers

Russ

I really don't know what went wrong, but suffice to say, it doesn't appear that I have lost as much as a single frame. When I get time I will perform some rigorous tests and try and find out what the issue is/was.

Cheers

Russ

Glad to hear nothing was lost,
I thought I lost clips from a SxS card once but thankfully didn't, ...a sick feeling alright.

Another occasion, while recording and spanning to the other slot i got the media restore message,
I was using MxM/SanDisk Extreme UHS-1.
I hadn't the time to sort it there and then, I just replaced the adapter to another one and carried on.

At home I had another look at the adapter that threw up the restore media message,
It did the same again, in fact it did it 3/4 times. I pulled out the SanDisk card reinserted it and the message stopped, so i dont know what happened but appears to be working OK now.

When I buy the MxM combo I never pull out the SDHC card, once its in, it stays in btw.

G'day,

A bit of an update. Marek and Maggie, of MxM Express, obviously read this forum because they have dropped me an email to offer some suggestions for fixing my issue. Since then I have discovered that the spring retention device that locks the SD card into the adapter is not working correctly and that the SD card may not have been making good contact with the adapter.

I have been issued an RA and the adapter is going back today. I would like to thank MxM for the follow-up. It is a good example of customer service in action.

Cheers

Russ

I would like to thank MxM for the follow-up. It is a good example of customer service in action.
Cheers
Russ

Couldn't agree more Russ, Marek and Maggie couldn't do enough to help, in any way.
A really professional service from MxM from start to finish.

After reading all this, I'm even all the more sorry that the SxS card system will never be able to work with adapters that can use the much more reliable compact flash cards, due tho the width of the cards. I have always hated SD-cards, with their flimsy construction and unreliable contacts. Mind you, companies like M&M and Hoodman have done a very good job making the existing adapters, but the basic concept of SD(HC) cards is just not up to professional use.

I just hope some solid state memory producing company will produce a card that uses the SxS contacts and card size, but works like an SDHC card, via USB. That would be much more reliable. If it is still affordable, of course... But I'm afraid the quantities would not be high enough to warrant a good profit... Hello Transcend?

Hello Luc,
I think we're running up against an issue here where the low cost alternatives are really based on repurposing consumer products to the professional/prosumer environment, and thus the current adapters have been created because of products (sdhc cards) that already exist in large and relatively inexpensive quantities.
The other, perhaps more hidden, side to your hope/suggestion is the fact that fewer and fewer manufacturers seem to be including the 'industry standard' expresscard34 slot in their laptop computers, particularly in the smaller computers. Were there hundreds of models of computers out there that took the expresscard, as well as more other devices that used them, and possibly other uses for the memory as well, then manufacturers might be more inclined to make new products in that form factor. But as we know, the main demand for the SxS cards has been professional, and even within the professional market the number of people using SDHC card adapters has had the effect of eroding a decent portion of the market demand for the faster 'real' SxS cards, thus helping keep the demand for real SxS cards lower, and thus also keeping the production quantities lower and the prices higher.
In fact, there seems to be a new card on the market - the Wise SxS/usb card. I don't actually know anyone who has bought or used one, so I can't really comment on it. But my guess is that it may have a high reliability factor, yet few people will be willing to pay the intermediate price for the Wise -- those that are willing to pay more for true professional reliability will buy the Sony SxSpro and SxSg1a cards, and those who are happy with a prosumer level of reliability will opt for the SDHC adapters. Of course I may be wrong (and the ability to output straight out of the Wise cards without an SxS adapter seems to be a nice feature.)
I seem to have been doing more multi-camera shoots lately, and I am constantly amazed by how many people have EX cameras, but also by how few real SxS cards they have. In fact, on just about every multicam shoot I'm asked to 'bring along some extra cards' - because a lot of the camera owners haven't bought much memory - or because the producer wants real SxS memory, while the camerperson has only 'adapter' memory.
Obviously, no answers here, only a restatement of the problems...

I did also notice this on the internet - though have no idea if it would work in a camera...???
http://delkin.com/i-5937186-32gb-solid-state-drive.html
(I have some Delkin CF cards that I've been using in my NanoFlash, but know nothing about these)

I'm afraid the logic in your explanation is 100% correct, Dave. I've recently bought an SDHC card of 16 Gb, class 10 (!) for less than 200,- euro. That's about the same price as a 23 Gb XDCAM-disk, so it's perfectly possible to keep the card as a permanent backup. Of course these prices are so low thanks to the thousands of other consumer apparatuses that use them, and these quantities will never be equalled by any SxS based product. So as I already stated, my hope will probably be in vain.

That doesn't keep me from wondering though why Sony hasn't capitalised on it's experience with Compact Flash card readers/writers like the CF Memory Recording Unit on their Z7 to use these more reliable cards in their EX-product line. I know that reader/writer only works via FireWire but surely there must have been a way to use FireWire instead of USB in the EX-line, given the data stream? In the manual of the PMW500 that I have for the moment (only borrowed, sadly enough!) the Compact Flash reader of the Z7 is even listed as one of the possible accessories!

Anyway, I would feel a lot more comfortable with CF cards, which I have been using thousands of times as a pro stills photographer, since my first Nikon D1 in 2000, in very demanding circumstances (concert photography) without a single problem. If I read about the horrors of SDHC, I can't help shivering.

I personally really like the SxS cards because of their (much) faster data transfer speeds. Using the NEXTO drive I can offload an SxS card in about 40% of the time of a similar-size CF card. (And offload speed becomes more important when shooting a lot of data with multiple cameras, particularly in continuous roll on a live event.)
In terms of firewire, as far as I know the firewire port is only operational on EX cameras when shooting in HDV mode - which for the EX1/3 means SP 25Mbit 1440x1080. (or possible outputting Dv as with the PMW-355). I haven't really done much using the firewire port on the EX's, but I think it is disabled when in 1920x1080.

I also think the FirWire connection is limited to HDV.

Don't misunderstand me: I find the SxS cards perfect and even more reliable than CF, but for me, as an amateur in video, they're too expensive. I'm just deploring that, in the search for more affordable solutions, the SDHC-card + adapter is the only contender for the moment. Not because of the adapter, but because of the amateurish construction and general design of the SD(HC) card. Not one of my pro still camera's works with SD cards, except as a backup in the Canon 1D-series. They all use CF as single or primary recording medium, and there's a good reason for that. SD(HC) was not designed to survive in a harsh professional environment. They're physically vulnerable and having those exposed contact strips is just asking for (electromagnetic) trouble.

I just took a look at the Belkin SSD card on the link you gave and that looks promising. Wonder if anyone here has ever tried it in a EX-cam?

G'day,

the details of the Delkin card are a bit sparse (even on the manufacturer's own site.) The best they can say is that they have a transfer rate of "more than 20 MB/s". I would like some more detail of the write speed before I'd lash out and spend around $120.00 AUD just to see if it would work in my camera.

Referring back to my original problem, I have changed my workflow since this incident. previously I was doing a "cut and paste" of the BPAV folder from the adapter to my PC. This meant that if the data was corrupted during the process, I had no fall-back position. In future I will copy and paste, leaving a copy on the adapter until I am sure that the transfer process was successful.

A small change, but something I overlooked previously due to a creeping complacency about the reliability of my equipment.

Cheers

Russ

Use ClipBrowser with CRC On to copy and check the integrity.
Another other method is high risk. Drag and drop is an accident waiting to happen.

It seems as if you used ClipBrowser after drag and drop since you're mentioning copy and paste in your alternate workflow.

Use ClipBrowser with CRC On to copy and check the integrity.
Another other method is high risk. Drag and drop is an accident waiting to happen.

It seems as if you used ClipBrowser after drag and drop since you're mentioning copy and paste in your alternate workflow.

Have to agree with Craig, I would use CB all the time to transfer the clips from the card to a folder in my (external) hard drive.
Once copied I then would copy and paste the entire folder to my PC hard drive.
I use CB again (select all) to drag them into the Edius bin and then from there to the Edius timeline.

BTW I would make a second copy of the MxM/SxS cards to another external hard drive giving me 3 backup copies.

I only use SxS and I'm so paranoid about losing footage since I had a DROBO fail that I now properly use all the facilities with ClipBrowser and I copy to two separate hard drives and check arrival in tact at those hard drives before I wipe the card and always ensure to use the eject / safely remove process.

My faith in the DROBO is gradually coming back.. but I don't think I'll ever have enough faith in anything other than the real SxS. I know the budget is too steep for some, and it caused me pain to invest in them - but the longer term decrease in tension at the point of data transfer is worth it.

I have recently invested in an SDHC card for my 550D and I must admit I bought off eBay at an amazingly good price (oops - is it fake??). Would be good to have a quick link on this site to manufacturers sites and pages relative to quality / validity / originality checks. I''d probably use one a key stroke after closing this posting..

[QUOTE=Dave Gosley;1664781 and check arrival in tact at those hard drives before I wipe the card and always ensure to use the eject / safely remove process.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, forgot to add that Dave, check everything, Total duration/clips/size.

I use SxS cards and the MxM/combo.
An SxS card let me down one time.

The actual prices of SDHC cards (less than 20 euro for a 16 Gb class 10 card, and still dropping) opens a completely new view on archiving problems. You can keep and archive the card forever at that price, just like an XDCAM disk. It costs the same price. But even then I would make copies on two external hard disks.

For my business (still photography, mainly concerts), I even had three backups disks: one was always kept in a different location, so that even burglary would not leave me without the original images. I had a commitment to my clients to safely keep their pictures for 10 years. The problem with video is that the files are not as straightforward as photo files, where each raw image is just one file to copy or to convert...

G'day,

having read this thread and receiving another email from MxM, also suggesting using Clip Browser to do my transfers, I will modify my workflow to do that in future even though I dislike the program for many reasons. I guess I couldn't see the need to do so as I believe that copying data is just that....copying data, and should not corrupt without a physical problem causing it.

Cheers

Russ

SDHC cards will not keep your data forever. They normally use MLC memory cells (Blue SxS uses SLC) which stores data bits using multiple voltage levels. The insulation of the cells is not always perfect so the charge in the cell can leak away over time leading to data corruption as the voltages decrease.

The more times you use a MLC memory cell the more the leakage increases (this is why Orange SxS cards have a limited cycle life). So if you are going to use SD cards for long term storage, don't use old cards that have been used many times. In addition cosmic particles (the same particles that damage sensor pixels) can punch holes in the insulators of multiple cells dramatically increasing the leakage or destroying them almost instantly, the only partial protection from this is to store the cards deep underground, but these high energy particles can even pass all the way through the earth. These damaging high energy particles come from distant super nova's and other cosmic sources, it's not sc-fi, it really does happen. A typical HD video sensor will loose around 3 to 5 pixels a year, although masking circuits normally stop these from showing up.

So as always the best protection is multiple storage devices, preferably stored in multiple locations. Never assume that any one device will work the next time you try to use it.

Thanks for pointing this out, Alister. In fact, I should have known this, certainly as a regular reader of 'Astronomy Now'. I do have the impression that CCD's are more prone to lose pixels due to this bombardment than CMOS. I assume that is because of the 'charge' in 'charge coupled device'. Is that correct?

I believe CMOS sensors are just as prone to damage, it's just the read out system used by CCD makes correction difficult, while on CMOS it's easy as each pixel can be addressed individually so masking is simpler and happens automatically. That's my understanding at least.

The actual prices of SDHC cards (less than 20 euro for a 16 Gb class 10 card, and still dropping) opens a completely new view on archiving problems. You can keep and archive the card forever at that price, just like an XDCAM disk. It costs the same price. But even then I would make copies on two external hard disks.

SD cards are not a suitable media for long term storage. No manufacturer that I am aware of sells their products on the merits of its archival life, unlike tape or certain optical media.

However those people who question the durability and build quality of SD cards are probably underestimating just how tough these cards can be. There are people who test SD cards to destruction for fun. I can't find the website at the moment but these guys leave them in salt water for days, drive over them, put them through the dishwasher, leave them in a glass of cola and in one case exposed a card to radiation way beyond normal background levels. The cards seem to survive in most cases.

Just because something looks small and flimsy doesn't mean it's not tough. Wasn't there a story several months ago about a camera being picked up in some fishing nets that had been at the bottom of the sea for a considerable length of time and all the photos being recovered from the SD card?

We use both SXS cards and Sandisk class 10 and ATP class 10 SDHC cards. With Class 10 we have not had any major problems. But we have modified our upload process to the following:

1. Copy and Paste BPAV folder to computer.
2. Go to ClipBrowser and review video to make sure it is what it is supposed to be. Then export to MXF.
3. Copy both to backup drive for duplication of data.
4. Create project in editor and bring in all MXF, etc. video for the project onto the timeline. Insure that all video is complete end to end and for all cameras.
5. Only then release the SDHC, SXS cards back to production.

Also, if you can't get the Browser to export the cards, manually go into the BPAV/CLPR folder and find the MP4 files. They are a maximum of ~3GB and go onto your timeline directly. What the Browser does is stitch them all together and put them into a MXF wrapper. This has saved us a few times because the Browser has had a problem with a glitch in the video file and won't export the file if that happens.

And lastly, I was at NAB in April and in talking with the Sony rep about the new FS100 35mm camcorder, I asked him why there was only one slot in the side. He said you don't need another slot because you will have Sony's new solid-state external drive that attaches to the side of the camera. Yea but, what about the price? The retail suggested price will be around $800US. Interesting, I thought. about the same price as an SXS card and much more memory capacity and functionality.

I suspect the SXS technology won't be around long with Sony. :)

Joe Oliverio
Oliverio Productions

I think you are very wrong about SxS, it will be around for many years to come.

Arri also use SxS in their Alexa cameras. SxS has a lot of as yet un-used performance head room that consumer media does not have. Off-load speeds of close to 10x real time are possible with the newer cards with the right devices (QiO, MS240, Express Slot). There are probably many more PMW cameras in the pipelines, certainly more PMW with SxS than PDW with optical disc.

No, SD and consumer media is not for the professional market (and EX is really a pro piece of kit) because of stories like the one that kicked off the thread and the many other tales of disaster, data loss and compatibility questions. SSD might be the first consumer media to make some serious inroads due to it's cost per Gb attraction and extreme speed, but SxS is not going anywhere fast. It will most likely just continue to creep down in cost for some years to come.

I think you are very wrong about SxS, it will be around for many years to come.



That's true. Sony are well known for persisting with formats everyone else has given up on. Betamax, Mini-Disc, DAT, etc. But in those cases there were at least multiple manufacturers of the media available which pushed down cost. SxS is a monopoly pure and simple and clearly nobody else thinks it worthwhile to produce the cards (the Sandisk versions are rarer than hens teeth and in anycase come from the same production line by all accounts).

However those people who question the durability and build quality of SD cards are probably underestimating just how tough these cards can be.

Just because something looks small and flimsy doesn't mean it's not tough.

The mere fact that is is flimsy makes it unsuitable for professional use, in my opinion. During the rush of a concert photo shoot, I put and throw cards everywhere: in my sweaty shirt pocket, on the bottom of my photo bag, etc... I've done this hundreds of time with the sturdy Compact Flash cards, but I would never risk it with SD(HC), because... it is flimsy and it hase exposed contacts. Simple as that.

The mere fact that is is flimsy makes it unsuitable for professional use, in my opinion. During the rush of a concert photo shoot, I put and throw cards everywhere: in my sweaty shirt pocket, on the bottom of my photo bag, etc... I've done this hundreds of time with the sturdy Compact Flash cards, but I would never risk it with SD(HC), because... it is flimsy and it hase exposed contacts. Simple as that.

I don't see much sense in your argument. Just because something looks flimsy doesn't mean it is

Tape/cards/whatever shouldn't just be thrown around, put into back pockets etc. For a start the SDHC cards we use in our EX's should always live in a lockable adaptor, and secondly regardless of media you should never be stuffing them in pockets etc. What happens if you sit down or forget to remove them afterwards? Or worse, reinsert a card that has already been written to and then format it in the camera as one person posted on here a few months back.

Used cards and blanks should be kept separate. If you can't return them to a proper place in your camera bag you can buy belt pouches that are ideal. There is never any excuse for just stuffing cards into the nearest pocket.

Many of the problems we read about on this forum can be prevented by proper handling of the media regardless of type.

That's true. Sony are well known for persisting with formats everyone else has given up on. Betamax, Mini-Disc, DAT, etc.

Formats like Betacam... BetaSP... DigiBeta... HDCAM.... HDCAM SR.....

All based on the original Betamax tape, yet still in use and available around the world today in huge volumes, 30 years after the first Betamax recorders appeared. The majority of the actual tapes used produced by Sony with 3rd parties also making them, but at lower volumes.

Yes it might be a near monopoly, but you cannot argue that they are good, reliable products.

There will be many more products that use SxS in the years to come, many of which will make more use of the fast transfer speeds available.
I really, really don't understand why people are prepared to take a risk shooting something like a wedding on media that is not the best and most appropriate that they can get. I've said this many times before, but how as a professional could you ever consider having to go to your customer and explain to them that something went wrong, knowing that you didn't take all precautions available to yourself to ensure the correct recording of the event. People seem quite prepared to spend money on cameras, matte boxes, follow focusses, fancy camera bags etc, but when it comes to media they don't want to spend money because it's not "sexy". SDHC is cheap, no doubt about that, but time and time again we see these posts about close calls or worse still actual data loss with SDHC. How many time do we see similar with SxS? Once in a blue moon.

How many time do we see similar with SxS? Once in a blue moon.

No more often that we see reports of problems from people using SDHC correctly having problems as we've previously established time and time again.

Just look at a thread nearby about someone using the old Transcend Class 6 cards. That issue should have been cleared up 18 months ago and yet people persist.

Precise number of problems experienced here since switching to MxM lockables and using ATP and Sandisk SDHC media? None. Hours shot? Ohhh, hundreds. And that includes doing daft things like shooting overcrank to the wrong slot (SxS being in the other slot ready to go) and having the Macbook crash while doing a transfer. Or dropping cards come to that.

In fact when I had a hard disk problem I was quick to suspect the cards I'd just copied from when some clips were corrupted. However it turned out to be the Lacie hard disk I had copied to coming to grief (some clips came in corrupted but it then turned out all sorts of other stuff on the HD was corrupted and it needed a total low level format). But of course I could have blamed the SDHC, after all it is the easy target......

Couldn't agree more Russ, Marek and Maggie couldn't do enough to help, in any way.
A really professional service from MxM from start to finish.

Same experience with Marek & Maggie of MxM Express here :)

Piotr

SDHC is cheap, no doubt about that, but time and time again we see these posts about close calls or worse still actual data loss with SDHC. How many time do we see similar with SxS? Once in a blue moon.

I own 3 SXS cards and about 20 SDHC cards. One SxS card went bad and I don't use it anymore. One SDHC card went bad (but only because I was using a Hoodman adapter that wasn't lockable and my nail split the SDHC card in two). Quite frankly there is a lot more footage being shot on SDHC, so it stands to follow that there would be more problems reported with SDHC. I just don't think the data is there to support the claim that SxS is more reliable than SDHC. Faster? Yes. Reliability? No one really knows, but suffice to say that they are equivalent.

Sorry but I have to totally disagree with just about everything you have said Brett.

SxS is in use by broadcasters and large production companies all over the world. Many, many of these will be using their cards every single day by multiple crews, sometimes several times a day in the case of news. These cards will be getting an extremely heavy card cycling, far higher than a corporate, wedding or event videographer will ever typically put any type of media through. Many of these organisations own large numbers of EX cameras.

Rental companies around the world hire out XDCAM EX cameras with SxS cards on a daily basis, these too will be used a lot more than many owner-operators.

The number of owner-operators of EX cameras is probably only a small percentage of all the EX cameras in the market. Many larger production companies would not be allowed to use SDHC as statistically (according to my production insurance company at least) SDHC is not as reliable, so they may not be able to get production insurance. Given the cost of crews, travel, location fee's etc the difference that using SxS over SDHC makes to the overall budget is largely inconsequential especially as the media will be used many, many times.

I think you grossly underestimate the amount of people that are using SxS. There are probably more SxS cards used on a daily basis in EX cameras than SDHC in adapters.

I attend trade shows year round. This year I have attended NAB, SxSW, Cinegear, BPV, and Broadcast Asia. I meet far, far more people that have had issues with SDHC than SxS, there is almost always one at every trade show. In 4 years of trade shows and EX workshops I have personally encountered perhaps 3 people that have had SxS issues compared to 30+ with SDHC issues. The majority of people that I meet choose to use SxS.

I receive on average an email every month from someone requesting assistance in recovering lost data from SDHC cards. If I were to get two in a year from SxS users I would be surprised.

If you search these boards or my blogs you will find perhaps a handful of people that have suffered a genuine SxS data loss. Compare that to the much higher numbers of user with SDHC data loss issues. You also have to be very careful when you hear of so called SxS failures as many are not. Many reported SxS failures are actually failures of SD cards in adapters. Often this only comes to light when the user tells us that "tried putting the card into my DSLR to read it" or "put the card into the SD slots of my laptop" so many reported SxS failures are in fact SDHC and adapter failures.

I have 14 SxS cards, some of which are 4 years old and have been frozen into lumps of ice, put through the dishwasher and boiled in boiling water as stunts for Sony. These cards are all as good today as the day I purchased them. I was the person that first discovered that an SD card could be made to work using the original Kensington adapter. I too wanted a lower cost alternative to SxS. I've used MxM, Hoodman and Sonnet adapters and I carry a couple of Sonnet adapters and some SDHC cards as a standby in my kit. But I've experience data loss with SDHC cards, so these are reserved for "emergencies".


I don't know who the SDHC is a reliable as SxS crowd are trying to convince, themselves perhaps, so they don't worry when they insert their cards. Because the evidence is all over every video related forum that this is simply not the case. Real SxS failures, whilst they do occur are rare. SDHC and adapter failures are far more common.

SxS cards have very clear and precise specifications for resistance to vibration, storage and operating temperatures, humidity, shock as well as insertion cycles. If a card used within these parameters fails then you should send it back to Sony. It should be replaced if it has failed. In addition SxS has an inbuilt restore function that can recover damaged files or file structures. There is also enough energy stored within the card to reduce the chance of corruption in the case of a power interruption or removal of a card during recording. SDHC does not have this. It's why when you get a "restore media" message with an SDHC card it may mean you have lost data and trying to use the "restore media" function can make the issue worse as the salvage data does not exist on the SDHC card as it would on an SxS card.

Alister,
What you say may be well and good. But the fact of the matter is most small businesses have to consider the overall costs and make some tough decisions about what works best for them. If all of us had to buy 14 SXS cards to make our EX1s usable I doubt Sony would be selling as many as they do and the camera would not be as viable as it is.

You are right that I worry about failures and that is part of the cost consideration. But with the Class 10 cards the failure rates have come way down I think and paying $100 versus $1000 is too big a difference. You would have thought that the price of SXS cards would have come down by now but they haven't.

If I were Sony I would thank my lucky stars that you discovered you could use SDHC cards otherwise they would have had a non-seller in the prosumer market.

BTW, do you know why they just didn't use CF cards like in their 270 camera? Nobody seems to complain about CF.

JoeO.
Oliverio Productions

CF is Canon's brand, perhaps this is the reason.

Also, the SxS cards went recently up in price, because people want to capitalize on recent destruction of HDCAM SR factory in Japan. A lot of networks started considering various other delivery options, and all proprietary solid state media, including P2, skyrocketed.

CF is Canon's brand, perhaps this is the reason.

Huh? You'd better not tell the folks at SanDisk....they might want to argue the point with you:

CompactFlash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash)

I...One SDHC card went bad (but only because I was using a Hoodman adapter that wasn't lockable and my nail split the SDHC card in two).

@ Marcus Durham: more proof for the vulnerability of amateur-targeted SD(HC)- cards in comparison to Pro-targeted Compact Flash. Try to split a CF-card with your nail.

@ Marcus Durham: more proof for the vulnerability of amateur-targeted SD(HC)- cards in comparison to Pro-targeted Compact Flash. Try to split a CF-card with your nail.

I've just taken an ATP card out of an adaptor to look at how this is feasible.

So after taking the card out of the lockable adaptor where it was safely encased, I've inspected just how I could inflict some damage. I cannot see any way to do it unless I applied force or the casing came apart due to poor construction (something that certainly wasn't the case with the ATP card I was looking at).

Incidentally according to the date written on the MxM adaptor this would be the first time in a year I had removed the card from the adaptor. Rather making the question of handling the SDHC media itself totally irrelevant.

SxS cards have very clear and precise specifications for resistance to vibration, storage and operating temperatures, humidity, shock as well as insertion cycles.

We've been through this before but as I stated last time both MxM and ATP publish very precise specifications that are every bit as detailed as those published by Sony.

SDHC works if you use it properly. If people will cheap out on cards or mishandle them then that there is separate issue.

Anybody would think we were hacking the cameras and installing our own custom firmware. It's not as if Sony don't sell their own media or indeed support hard disk recording via the expresscard slots.

I'm now dropping out of this thread. I know the solutions I use work and I have confidence in them (i.e. latest firmware, latest MxM cards and premium ATP or Sandisk cards ONLY).

For the last three shows I shot I stopped using the cards altogether. I use my homemade hard disk recorder instead.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/486154-mxm-express-recorder-sony-pmwex1r.html#post1584446

I use the cards for portable shooting only now. Because so many hours fit on the hard drives I can get an entire show into a single file.

John

Don't delete clips if you can help it. This will fragment the data as the camera will be forced to use the gaps created by the deleted file.[/QUOTE]

So what you are saying is to format the card in the camera after shooting rather than "deleting all clips".

I have the Ex-3, Ex-1R and the PMW 320. Both the Ex-3 and Ex-1R have the deleting all clips option. The PMW 320 does not have this option.... the only option is to format the card. Is that what we should be doing after transferring the clips to the computer in preparation for shooting again?

Thanks

Ronnie Martin

It makes no difference with SD cards whether you delete or format as the wear levelling circuits on the card will always write data to the least used cells, so even with a card that was part full and then formatted the cards internal circuits will use the cells that were not used prior to formatting in order to ensure your not continually using the same memory cells over and over while leaving others unused.

I would expect similar behaviour on most types of solid state memory.

If you test beforehand you'll be able to trust SDHC much more.
Always record end to end none stop to assure you'll get no media errors.
In testing I'd do the opposite of what Ronnie suggests. I also do a bunch of records deleting every few clips and keep going until the card is full. You want to make sure that fragmentation won't be an issue. Do both of the above tests for every SDHC card when you purchase them should eliminate all but user error issues.

Just been to the Samsung Memory card launch today and was given two 16gb SDHC Plus cards (class 10). The Plus cards are 100% tested before being sold. The cards can be submerged in Sea water for 24 hours and will still work, they will work after a 1.6 ton vehicle has driven over them and will still keep data safe after being subjected to a 10 Gauss magnetic force.

All sounds too good to be true, I will test my two cards out over the weekend and probably publish a video review of them - maybe I will just submerge them in my bathtub rather than drive down to the coast. A my daughters bike might be a more realistic test. As for the magnetic force, I will leave the card in front of my HiFi speaker whilst listening to Mahlers Resurrection Symphony (No 2).

Just for info, here is the Samsung press release


20th July 2011, London UK – Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., has launched a new range of high performance SDHC/SD and micro SDHC/SD memory cards. All of the cards in Samsung’s latest memory line-up provide incredible read speeds of 24MB/s and have been designed to meet the growing need for faster data transfer from a mobile device, such as smart phone or digital camera, to a PC.

The new Samsung memory cards will be available in two categories: ‘Essential’ and ‘Plus’, providing a choice of card to suit every application.

The premium ‘Plus’ range of SDHC/SD and micro SDHC/SD memory cards have the highest available class 10 speed rating - for advanced data transfer speed and flawless transmission of full HD video – and also boast a class-leading write speed of up to 21MB/s. With data storage capacity of 8GB or 16GB, the cards are perfect for today’s memory-devouring devices and come with a 10 year limited warranty.

Samsung’s ‘Essential’ category of SDHC/SD and micro SDHC/SD memory cards have either a Class 4 or Class 6 performance rating and offer a write speed of up to 13MB/s. Available in capacities from 2GB to 16GB, the ‘Essential’ memory cards come with a 5 year limited warranty.

Extremely durable and reliable, the new Samsung memory cards have been designed to be ‘3 Proof’: Shockproof, waterproof and magnet proof - ensuring that valuable data won’t be lost, even in the harshest of environments. Shock-proof technology within the cards protects data from forceful impact and high pressure, including being crushed by a 1.6 ton vehicle, while an innovative Epoxy Moulding Compound covering provides a shield against dust and means the memory cards can withstand over 24 hours in sea water. The cards are also able to resist x-ray scanners and any type of widespread magnetic exposure.

All cards in the new line-up feature a stylish brushed aluminum finish and will be available from July 2011 in the UK. A class 10 SDHC/SD and micro SDHC/SD memory card with a massive 32GB capacity will be added to the ‘Essential’ range in September 2011.

@ Marcus Durham: more proof for the vulnerability of amateur-targeted SD(HC)- cards in comparison to Pro-targeted Compact Flash. Try to split a CF-card with your nail.

Maybe, but the fact is that CF flash cards are far more prone to failure due to the pin openings- moisture will find a way in. I had an interesting conversation with a Samsung official today and asked why they didn't produce CF cards. The reply was that it was a shrinking market and that SDHC cards were far more reliable.

Interesting stuff.

BTW. I have never had card failures until recently when my CF card decided to play silly pranks by rearranging data.

Alister is probably right with the claims on SxS cards, I have no doubt that they are the best available, but then at the high price they should be.

Will these new Samsung cards work with the Ex-cameras and if so what type of adapter will be recommended? At NAB I bought one of the Hoodman Steel 32 gig cards and it seems to be solid.

Thanks

Ronnie

I will be using the Samsung cards with my EX3, will do some tests later today, especially with overcranking. Will keep you posted here.