I just moved to vegas for a job less than a year ago. Ive done a few weddings for friends and I wanted to keep doing it out here. So this couple who ive gone out with whos friends with my friend needed a videographer. I decided to do it for $550 to cover rental costs for the equipment I need. Getting them to go from $350 to $550 was a reach.

They groom is cool and quiet, the bride is the one while she is nice in person, I can tell by little tells she wants the best. Showed me an example of a video that had steadicams and just amazing and she wants all that.

Ive tried my best to suck it up, but it is annoying that she wants everything perfect while Im technically doing it for free.

Its definitely a great learning experience.

Ya might mention what a steadicam costs and ask if she's buying...

Tell her you can't buy a Porshe on Ford Tempo budget. It's impossible unless you pay more money. Duhhh

I think one of the hardest lessons you'll learn when starting up (I've just figured it out recently, 2 years after starting my business) is that some clients are not worth the trouble.

The ones who try and get a discount, want extra stuff thrown in for free etc are usually the ones who do not have any understanding of the value of your work. They expect to pay nothing and get the best, and complain when you can't deliver the best on zero budget. Down the road these are the clients who will complain about the final product, the delivery time or anything else they can find a fault with. And not once will they stop to think that they are getting exactly what they were willing to pay for (probably more than they paid for).

In this situation, I'd do what I've been doing lately when I've had these "friend-of-friend who you met once at a party" type hagglers. Tell them ok, you'll do them a deal. But rather than giving them a set price, let them go and realise the value of your work first. Send them on a wild goose chase and make them work for thier discount. For example, tell them you'll do it for $300 plus expenses. Then send them a hefty rental list (feel free to be a little creative here) to go and price up. When they realise equipment hire alone can be over $1000 for a wedding, perhaps they'll change their tune a bit.

If you are giving someone a discount, make sure they know how much of a discount they are getting. Saying you'll do it for $550 has no context and might seem like a rip-off to them until they realise the next cheapest option is $1500 or more. So make them go and get prices, and perhaps when they get back to you they'll have a somewhat higher appreciation of what you're doing for them.

Sean, with only $550 only enough for rentals you have to make sure that the B&G understands that you are really doing them a favour. If you have samples, show them this is what they will get. If they want more, then pay more..

The clients may probably ask this and that because they are not educated enough. I would go down the path of explaining how much the gear would cost.. then the number of hours spent on editing. Once you got it broken down, I'm sure they'll realize how much favour you've actually given them.

I feel your pain Sean, seriously I do. Been there done it and it's not just in video.

At some point you will learn that your best customers will turn out to be total strangers that you never knew beforehand.

The people you already know from elsewhere, if they become your customers too, it's very often a flop of the dice.

Good luck and I hope it all turns out for you!

Unless you are advertising a genuine "special" for your normal packages then there is really only two prices ..."Normal" (with no exceptions) or FREE....obviously the free ones should be restricted to close family ... you wouldn't charge your sister to shoot a wedding but consider it a wedding present.

I found that the more you drop, the more they expect!! In fact doing a wedding for almost nothing (like the rental costs) will probably cost you in the end and they will expect the world!!

If it's your very first wedding then hire/borrow the gear and pay for it yourself and do the wedding for free if you truly need a portfolio to show other paying brides. Consider it start-up costs!! but don't do the wedding at a huge discount for any reason...you will suffer in the end and also get a string of "friends of friends" saying "..but you only did Jenny's wedding for $300???"

Chris

Totally agree Chris... however I have sent a few not-so-close friends on a bit of a wild goose chase recently.

It's much more fun that way than flat out saying "NO."

With super close friends/family I've done one for free and said no to another - but in both cases given them a clear breakdown of the amount of work that I put into a wedding video, so they can understand my viewpoint.

Great feedback guys. I considered doing it for free but then thought after everything I would be spending like 700 bucks. Initially they had a a crew doing there wedding and they put a down deposit, and after talking about some stuff they decided to drop them and go to me.

I remember having a skype sessions and the bride showing me the quality she wanted and how she didnt want my style to be like my previous wedding. This was the last wedding ive done:
Jen & Jon's Wedding Film on Vimeo . I remember just repeatedly telling them the cost for that kind of shot or that kind of audio and just watch the two look at each other in silence, I was talking to a brick wall! I did talk to my friend and she told me that she asked the bride that if she hated my style of editing then why did you hire him? The brides response was "Hes dirt cheap"

I did put in the contract and made it clear to them that since Im doing it for practically nothing, I am going to shoot and edit it the bet way I see fit. Also to keep the price to yourself. Yeah right lol. All of this is great experience, rather get it now than later.

Hi Sean

I really do feel that you are walking into a hornet's nest here!!! Already the bride doesn't like your style etc etc etc.....she can't expect to be demanding this and demanding that for nothing!!!

If it were me I would drop her like a hot potato!! She sounds like she will be expecting the world from you on a shoestring budget. I NEVER change my style for a bride..I shoot documentary and if I bride wants different I just point het towards someone else.

However it's your decision of course...I would most definately try to get out of this one!!

Chris

Sean

I'd say do it for free or not do it at all.

You've said that she's already walked out on someone else because she's got you cheaper. You won't make many friends in the business by taking away already booked work from people who are charging properly.
Don't take this as an unkind comment, but based on your sample of your last wedding you still need to practice your game.
You said that when you explained the cost implications at your meeting it was like talking to a brick wall, do you think they will be any more responsive to you if you have to deal with their criticisms afterwards.

It seems you are new to this so I know it may be difficult to temper your eagerness to produce work with the warnings of those who've been doing it for some time and have encountered similar situations, but this has all the signs of a headache in the making.
I'd drop it now.

Sean..mate my advice is walk... realise that there are some people in this world that you will never please and want everything for free... she has already shown contempt for you by saying you are dirt cheap.. save your energies for those that appreciate them. This wedding will turn into a big headache for you.

Had an inquiry like that last year. Their budget was $ 500 and then they showed a video that they wanted replicated. It was a Jason Magbanua highlight video. I told them that video would cost you around $ 3000, you have 3 guys shooting, etc, etc. I walked away. And besides I will fall way way short of their expectations.

Admit you've made a mistake now, and you can still keep your friends and not hurt anyone, including yourself.

Sean, you took on a wedding for the cost of rental equipment? For people you don't know? If you were doing it for family OR if you desperately needed footage to create a demo reel, fine. Is this to show your friends how great you are? What a nice guy you are? What an amazing videographer you are? Stop it.

Stop this mess. Don't be stupid. And if you follow through with this we really don't need to hear how you lost your friends over this mess, because this will definitely damage your friendship.

OK, how do you get out of it? You tell your friends this isn't working out, you say it is nobody's fault and now that you realize what the bride wants YOU CANNOT PROVIDE IT. Period.

Do not bad mouth the bride, do not be mad, realize you made a mistake and move on.

The bride will relent, they will likely beg you to not pull out, and say they are sorry. Do not listen to her. Just get out.

You think you are doing it for free, but you are not. You are charging the bride something, and she is paying. That is not free, that is zero profit margin, which is really bad business.

And she will not see it as free, because she is forking out money.

Follow through with this and then you and the bride, and your friends will all be victims of your careless behaviour.

If you get out now, then you at least will have shown that you woke up and realized you made a mistake, which happens to all of us.

I have a feeling that you may have trouble getting out of the mess you have gotten into. And you are in a mess already, make no mistake.

If you ABSOLUTELY cannot back out...you should change your shooting style at least for this wedding, but no worries, but it will be easy to do.

You must eliminate most of your moving shots, they are too shaky. Stake your spot out and use a tripod whenever you can. You have a good eye, your demo shows some nice closeup, etc. Get good solid non-shaky shots, pretend you are taking still shots, it will clean things up immensely. Frame your shots perfectly as you can, and keep your camera still, not moving. Shoot for ten seconds, stop recording. Then frame your next shot, shoot for ten seconds, stop recording. Just like taking photos. It will edit like butter that way also. (I'm talking about preceremony, etc, of course, not the wedding)

Your previous wedding showed lots of promise. Just clean up your shooting style, simplify it, at least for this bride. She wants a classier, cleaner look, that is all.

Your demo shows a lot of hard work, too much. You actually would be better to simplify things, and go for a classic look.

But in the end, as we have all said, get out if you can.

Yea I definitely see my issues, each one I do I look to improve upon. That wedding was done by myself with a dvx. I went for a hiper youthful version that worked with my friends back on the east coast.

This wedding I am definitely doing it more classy and less shaky. This time I have a buddy as my 2nd shooter, xha1 for wide coverage and I rented 2 7ds, a glidetrack, a bunch of good lenses, 3 zooms with wired mics, and this time I will be running around with a monopod!

But yeah, I will be doing my editing style more like my buddy aquavivus.com. less quick cuts and more cinematic.

The only worries I have about this wedding is getting the audio great, cameras overheating, and getting things in focused as smoothly as possible, I got 2 days of practice thank god.

Sean,

First my usual disclaimer when posting regarding weddings, I am not a wedding shooter so this comes from a different creative perspective but, business is the same whether shooting corporate and movie gigs or weddings.

From my perspective there are three classifications of jobs, paid, unpaid, and charity work. I do some very limited unpaid work only for very close family members and friends who I consider family (like my kids godparents). For the unpaid work I make sure the only expenses I have are my time and maybe gas. For charity work I may incur some very minor actual hard costs but those go toward feeling good that I helped the local cause. These expenses are items like blank media, packaging, etc. Usually under a couple of hundred dollars and the benefit from a business standpoint is that I do get to write those off as charitable contributions and I have secured future jobs from contacts made during charitable shoots. Paid work is invoiced to the client after an agreed upon pay schedule is established.

So in your case you've really got yourself a paid job without the hope of making any money. When looked at from that standpoint you are only on the loosing end. But the bride has given you a great out. She already has said that she wants a different style than what you've done. She also has a clear idea of what she wants. So I would suggest that you give her two options. One, the couple goes out and finds the videographer that creates the style she wants. They'll quickly find the real cost involved.

The second option would be for you to do the shooting and editing for free. You'll try to create as close as possible, the style and video she wants. But, they will have to provide all equipment necessary. In other words, they pay for the rental directly. That way if she wants a spectacular jib shot they have to pay for the jib rental. If they want pristine sound, they'll have to pop for renting a bunch of wireless lavs and a multi-track recorder. If they want really cool Steadicam shots they have to rent the rig for you to use. That emphasize that you are really doing them favor because you are not charging them anything.

If you go along the current path you will almost surely end up with hurt feelings. The problem is, anytime someone pays you money, even if it is for just your cost of renting equipment, they feel they are paying you. If they were making the payments directly to the rental company, you will be just a great friend providing about $2K in free labor for shooting and editing their video.

Just my thoughts and how I would approach it from a business and friendship preservation standpoint.

-Garrett

Garrett, you framed it perfectly. He should do it for free and have her pay for the rentals. Perfect.

I hear you guys, I essentially am doing that except to lose the hassle, I ordered the rentals instead. Maybe I should have emphasized to them that its what Im really doing.

After your last post I'm afraid that I think you are either a very brave or extremely foolish.

You have limited experience, using unfamiliar kit which you clearly don't know how to get the best from and on top of that you are attempting to match your shooting style to some dream style the bride has. A bride who's already stated she's got you as your dirt cheap;' nice sort of client to foster.

You definitely seem to be clinging on to this like a terrier.

I guess that if you've already paid the rental you're stuck with it so very good luck with it.

Hi Sean, the issue will be who is cutting the check to the rental company. Even if you present them with the receipts and every backup detail if you pay the rental company and then they reimburse you, it leaves a different taste. Sounds crazy but that's been my experience. If they are paying the rental company directly they will view it as just another expense in their big day. You can do them an "additional favor" of setting everything up with the rental company and even picking up and dropping off all equipment, but have them pay for it from their credit card or cut a check directly to the rental house.

Again, sounds crazy and shouldn't make a difference but for some reason it does.

-Garrett

George, we can see now that he's already in, it's over. Sean has seen he might have handled it differently, and while he might not quite understand how it may turn out, he is accepting some feedback, and that is huge.

I suspect he has gotten in beyond the point of no return and will have to follow through. I just hope he comes out of it OK.

If I were to post this a month ago I already would have told them to go eat it but because Im alrdy in (I received the rented equipment yesterday), I think I need to make the best of the situation. I have the confidence in the equipment, I have used the 7D on a wedding with a buddy and after a few hours yesterday I feel like I have mastered the camera. Its just the techniques such as keeping the camera still while focusing that I need to practice.

I am going into this with the confidence that I will have awesome footage and product in the end and that will give me something legit to show future clients. I am not viewing this as job, I am viewing this as me paying my dues to one day get a job. Yeah I definitely should have handled it differently, but that is a mistake I can say I learned.

The first time I talked to the bride on the phone and she wanted to pay nothing, initially the conversation ended professionally with us just on two different wave lengths, I was doing what you guys are saying and told her to crazy, it costs so much to do what you want. BUT... after some thinking I told myself, if I dont do this, I probably wouldnt do a wedding this summer and I wanna get this side work going. Thats when I sid screw it, Im gonna do it.

Ok now you're there Sean I'm sure we're all pulling with you for it go well for you.

Maybe one day you'll be the one warning someone to walk away having been there and done that, like so many of us here.

Sean, your head is in the right place, and while I question that anyone could master the 7D in a few hours, who am I to say? Maybe you have.

We wish you the best, and hope everything comes out great. At tihis point we support you and want to see the best possible outcome for everyone.

Best of luck.

Lol, simple, 12 mins record, 45mins per 16gb card, shutter, aperture, white balance, zoom for focus, iso, detail settings etc... simple lol

Thanks for everyones input.

Good luck with this Sean. Just remember KISS. Had a 4 hour preproductiion meeting last night for an upcoming shoot of a scene where I get stuffed in the trunk of a car with the actor and we're lighting it only with an iPhone. That definitely didn't follow the KISS rule. I'll be shooting with a 5DMKII. Fun stuff to be stuck in a car trunk in the middle of summer. Unfortunately the actor isn't one of the good looking female leads.

-Garrett

KISS? i dont think I ever heard of that before

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid.

I have to tell myself that every time I start planning these elaborate shots. Like yesterday. I talked myself and the producer into a long Steadicam shot that will be one continuous take. I think I just took what could have been a series of basic locked down shots pulling focus and made it into a long day of trying to track a woman pulling up on a Harley, dismounting, then walking into a crowed building and having the crowds part followed by a circle around her, ending in an OTS (over the shoulder) of her POV. Gonna be fun but will probably take all day to get all the beats right.

Definitely, I have an idea of all the must have shots (wide, cu, ms slider) and then every now and then when I have time ill try something new. One thing I wanna do is get a shot of both rings, just figuring when the best time to do that.

One thing I wanna do is get a shot of both rings, just figuring when the best time to do that.

Usually the reception is when I try to do ring shots, because there's usually at least a little bit of down time at some point. Plus you can usually find some nice background/foreground elements to work with if the reception is decorated nicely.

My most "interesting" career moments have occured when I play the opposite game. To keep things fresh and keep friends and family guessing, try it.

Occassionally when a situation arises that we think raises red flags based on previous experiences, do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what your heart tells you - and do it with gusto!

You'll be amazed at what happens. Sometimes we tend to get a bit crusty and disillusioned with clients - it's great for the soul - sometimes backfires, but always a learning experience.

I had a client once - whining old woman, appeared to want a very simple 2hr real estate shoot, and to pay nothing for it. I rocked up, super pumped and offering all the trimmings and suggestions I could think of. I bought dollies, cobracranes, sliders - the works. I made her work her butt off as well, provide help, get food and we went solid for 8 hours! Didn't charge her anything.

She turned out to be VERY well connected and has referred over $300k of work to me in the past 5 years.

Twice a year I try this, sometimes my predjudices are well founded, sometimes not.

There are also clients that like to test you first. They intentionally ramp up the pressure on a small gig to see how you respond. I had a soccer club game out of town. I didn't know who the guy was. I wound up with a dozen more games for a high school where he was booster club president here in town last season. This summer I'm doing highlight reels for individual players from that school working for scholarships. The client is already talking about next season. All because of one, low paying gig that was much more difficult than expected. Plus there have been referrals not related to soccer too!!!

Customer service pays off. Sometimes people who are hard to please turn out to be the best customers.

Hey Sean, you're in a tough situation, and it may be hard to pull out a "win", but you've got a great attitude and that goes a long way. I'm sure you'll do better in this situation than I would!

Let us know how it turns out.

Hey Sean,

As has been stated I'm sure we're all pulling for you to succeed on this one. It will not be easy and I honor your braveness even attempting to make this bride happy after what she has said going in. You are very confident in your self and I hope you'll be able to pull off what you have planned in your head.

However, I can't simply sit here and watch you go off to potentially meet your maker (trust me, crazy brides can sometimes feel like they'll kill you) with out giving you as much advice as I can. But first, I'll post a video or two here so you can learn a thing or two before shooting.

an intro to shooting a ceremony with EOS // canon cinema caravan on Vimeo - camera placement
an intro to EOS stabilizers // canon cinema caravan on Vimeo - camera movement
B&H HDSLR Hub: Learn With A Pro (http://www.hdslrhub.com/) - a whole bunch of good workflow stuff and organizational advice for the day of.

Some tips:
Make sure that you have a mic on the groom and have a means of recording anything else that may happen (readers, music, etc), make sure that you also monitor this audio so that you're not stuck in editing with now sound...

Keep track of the 12 minute limits, use any method you can think of but make sure if its an alarm of some kind that its silent, just don't forget. Nothing sucks like having one of your cameras stop recording. If thre is down time at 6 minutes.. just double tap the record button to restart the 12 minute mark so it doesn't come at an important moment.

Just because you have a slider, doesn't mean you have to use it. Its a great tool and I love using mine but there are weddings that go by where I have it I just don't use it. When I first got the slider, I over used and and wished when I was editing that there were some more static shots.

Talk to the photographer ahead of time, tell him the style you're going for and let him know where you are planning on shooting from... Tell him its important that he doesn't get in your shot and likewise you'll try your best not to get in his. Be as nice as you can to him / her and you will find that this will be really easy.

Always keep an extra battery and memory card in your pocket at all times. If for some reason either one dies, you will not have to panic, you'll be able to smoothly place your new item in the camera... remember when shooting with DSLR's things will not be pretty a lot of times with regard to timing the cards, keeping track of where your batteries are are how much charge is in them, and how much media you have left in total.

Good luck, I hope all goes well and we'd love to see a edited piece at the end...

Louis

Hey Louis,

Man thank you for that post, what a great last thing to read before going to bed. Right now the only question mark I have is where to place the lav mic on the groom, and if i should have it pointing down.

I know the slider shouldnt be over used. I am gonna use it for lots of static shots of the mansion and surroundings as soon as I get to the wedding to set up. One dream shot I want to really get is the slider going towards the bride and groom during the ceremony in the middle of the isle. The plan for the ceremony is to have my B cam guy get the left side to get the groom, a Cam C for a steady wide shot all the way in the back, and me with a monopod getting shots of the bride, crowd and everything else I can.

I spoke the the photographer, super cool about working with me. Now i am banking the priest isnt a doosh and tries to get me to stay stationary.

so i finished the wedding today... BOY did i forget how tiresome it is... overall im pleased with what i got, i just dread uploading so many gigs of footage and so many audio clips from the zooms.

the only thing that concerns me is the ceremony coverage and toasts. the ceremony setup was so weird with a piece hanging over the pool with the bride and groom, very hard to get angles and it seemed they flew by the ceremony and it was tough for me to keep coverage on them while getting shots of the crowd etc. The heat warning of my 7d came on but luckily that was it. I was able to mic up the best man for the toast but his toast was quick and dumb, couldnt mic up the sister and the father said he wasnt doing it and then he goes ahead and does a speech. The speakers were on the walls in this small room with tables everywhere so nowhere to put my zoom, however i put it on a table pointing up, hopefully good enough.

so im gonna edit this video like a film with pieces of everything. after the bride wanting me to vide tape the signing of the marriage certificate and gave me a look wheever i went away from the signing makes me think shes gonna want everything in it... NOT GONNA HAPPEN lol.