My Sony HC7 has given me so much trouble lately that I have to do something about it. I could pay about $300 or more to have it fixed, but given the problems I've had with this camera I don't want to do that.

I've been looking at the Canon HV40 and the price has come down considerably. I know MiniDV is pretty much history in the consumer market so I'm wondering if I should purchase another MiniDV camera or something else. AVCHD? DLSR?

What would you recommend for a prosumer hobbyist that uses his camera for family activities? I edit HDV with Sony Vegas, I like the MiniDV format and I still have plenty of new unused tapes. The HV40 is currently selling in the mid $600 range.

Thanks.

Nope, not a chance. :)

For family activities (and this will probably be my next personal use camera), I'd think about a Sony NEX5. Super compact, great stills and video, and you can adapt some serious lenses to it if you ever have the need.

Save your cash for a nanoFlash. If the tape factor is all that's going wrong with your camera, this solves it. You can record in XDCAM HD 422 straight off of the HDMI port on your HC7. Works up to 100Mbps Long GOP in Vegas 9 and up to 280mbps I-frame in Vegas 10.

I own an HC7 myself and the images with -2 sharpness applied are still really good. As much as I want to use tape for archiving, dropouts on tape are making me move towards the nanoFlash.

If you can't afford a nanoFlash, a Focus Enhancements CF recorder would do fine too.

The TL;DR: Yes I would, but I'd use it with a nanoFlash or other Solid State recorder.

You must be kidding! In 2011??? Up your budget just a bit and get a decent flash camcorder.

My $.02...

If all you're using it for is hobby/family stuff, you might even take a look at Sony's top end P&S cameras released this year...

While I have CX550's and Alpha SLR/SLT's, in all honesty I reach for a DSC-TX9 most of the time anymore, will be upgrading that to the TX100V shortly, with 60P video... The HX100V and HX9V are also "top of the line", but the already discontinued WX10 floored me with what it could do (about 90% of what the "top" ones can)... I paid under $200, to upgrade the "wife cam".

While the form factor is a bit awkward for video, these little P&S cameras do quite well for stills, and the video function is pretty "up to date in KC". There are easy ways to steady them, and you're looking at under $500, even for the most expensive one once the "hard to get" factor goes away (they aren't producing a lot with the disaster in Japan).

All of this depends on what you "really" need in a camera of course - do you use dual audio/mics? Do you shoot in absurdly low light? Do you need alternate frame rates? Do you need to impress anyone (clients) with the size of your camera?

I'd be hard pressed to tell someone to go buy a dedicated video camera unless they have a "business" (meaning it will generate income). A P&S, while it won't have all the adjustments and bells and whistles, sticks in your pocket in most cases, so in the end you have it with you and end up taking more shots/clips... the image quality will likely match or surpass your HC7 in many cases.

Oh, and unless you have a large tape archive to deal with, I wouldn't buy a tape based camera today, though I still have a couple in inventory until I get done dumping tape!

Just to pile on, I think there are two things you really need to avoid these days... tape and standard definition. FireWire as well. So make that three things. You want HD, flash-based recording media, and an inexpensive card reader.

I've got to agree with the others...I wouldn't touch one today if I had cases of tapes sitting, un-used.
The suggestion about a Sony NEX is a really good one; I've been shooting with one for the past 8 months or so, and am continually surprised by the quality of video it produces. I've invested in a couple of adaptors to use my Nikon lenses with it, and the results have been extraordinary. It's a lovely little camera to use.

To add to Chris Hurds list, I would also point out most any tape based consumer cam is also going to have an older technology sensor. Even at equal cost, I think you will get a better, more light sensitive sensor with lower noise with a more current flash (AVCHD) based cam.

Yes, I would buy one.

As a prop.

For film about a late '90s, early 2000s videographer.

:)

Thanks for all the comments. I agree it's time to ditch MiniDV and to look at other technologies. Thanks for mentioning the Sony Nex 3 or 5. It looks like an interesting camera that possibly could fill my need for both photos and videos. I plan to give the Nex a serious look as well as competing products as this market develops.

I already have a very nice prosumer compact, a Canon G11, but unfortunately when I bought it I didn't have a need for it for videos. So I'm stuck with its SD and monoural capabilities. Even the G11 successor, the G12, only does HD at 720p 24fps. If I want 30fps, it's back to SD.

I might play around with my G11 and see how it does for video. Given my need is personal use, and my delivery format is DVD, this might suffice for now. But I really hate to take steps backwards in the quality of my projects, especially in audio.

Depends. If you have tons of recorded tapes (as I do) having a new HV40 may make a lot of sense. Are all your old tapes archived? Will you have a way to go back and retrieve footage? For me having a working camera that plays tape is VERY important.

Secondly will your computer handle the newer formats? HDV can be edited on a pretty mundane system. There has been more than one DVI member that made the camera switch only to find out the price of the camera was just a start because of the computer upgrades necessary to get the new codec to work. Make sure you download some footage to test on your current set up.

And most importantly budget. You say you have a ton of blank media and the HV40 does shoot very nice footage. Your present computer handles it just fine and at $600 it's a deal. If money were tight, my computer was marginal and I had no way to capture my old tapes, you may find the HV40 the perfect camera for your situation.

I've been looking at the Canon HV30 & 40, both used and new. I'm surprised how much eBay bidding activity there still is on these models. I guess it's coming down to when I should or must replace my MiniDV workflow, either now or later. I don't want to put much money into MIniDV which is why I looked at used models or even getting my HC7 repaired. I thnk the cost of repairing my HC7 might be about the same as buying a used HV30.

As for my archived project tapes, my HC7 should be able to capture them provided the mechanical problems don't get any worse.

Would you buy a MiniDV camera now?


Damm, and I thought this may have been a chance to off load my Canon XL1s and AH a1.

Move forward and invest in a decent memory card camcorder or HDSLR

Your question should have read “Should I buy a MiniDv camera now?"

A friend asked me over to his daughter’s birthday party and I took my new Canon HF G10 along. Before leaving their house I noticed they had a PS3 so after I arrived home, I captured the footage, made about 20 cuts, 2 cross fades, one title and burned it to a Blu ray. The next day I saw him and gave him the disc.

Both his wife and daughter called thanking me, they loved it. That was last Monday.

Last night about nine my friend calls and I can hear the frustration in his voice. He just needs a little help. He’s sure it’s just something simple and could I tell him how I captured/edited/and burned the Blu Ray? And oh by the way if he tries to just play the footage from the camera on his 5 year young laptop it freezes.

Without saying anything he went out and paid a premium for the Canon HF G10. Since I left their house after nine and had the disc in his hand before lunch the next day and knowing I need my 6 hours of sleep, how hard could it be? When he found out the software I used runs over $1500 the thud I heard on the other end of the line could only be him passing out.

His wife balked at the $1000 he said he spent and he remarked that if she really knew the cost her head would explode. Worse yet, when she asked him if he had talked to me prior to purchasing the camera he lied to her and said he had. I suspect I will be dodging her for quite some time. I did tell him if she cornered me I would give her the $1000 he said he spent for the camera. Cash.

I think we all need to be cognizant of the fact that what some of us do on a day to day basis with the newest cameras, software and computers is not typical. If you do work for hire having $10,000 in computer hardware and software is easy to do. If you are a hobbyist that’s a tough nut to crack.

For me, buying an HF G10 and the XF100 with the Canon .mxf codec wasn’t an issue. A quick trip through the Canon utility (XF100) and right into the Premier time line and I was off and running. They are great camera but for some people that same journey can be a nightmare.

If my HDV camera broke and I wasn’t in a financial position to upgrade my computer to handle the newer formats I would buy another in a second. That’s a decision only you can make.

Just to pile on, I think there are two things you really need to avoid these days... tape and standard definition. FireWire as well. So make that three things. You want HD, flash-based recording media, and an inexpensive card reader.

Not so sure about FireWire, it still provides a constant data transfer speed. I am also told it makes less demand on processing for audio cards. At least that was what I was told when I purchased the FireStudio Mobile audio interface.

Chris was referring to FW in camcoders; we had many issues with them over the years, likely the biggest, most expensive plague in camcorders.

FW may still be OK for a while in your editing room, to connect external hard drives and other peripherals... its days are numbered though with the spreading of USB 3.

Up until the GoPro Heros came out I probably would have bought one really cheap one to mount on car exteriors, but with the advent of those little buggers I see virtually no reason for myself to ever buy a tape based cam again, let alone one in standard definition.

What would you recommend for a prosumer hobbyist that uses his camera for family activities? I edit HDV with Sony Vegas, I like the MiniDV format and I still have plenty of new unused tapes. The HV40 is currently selling in the mid $600 range.
Thanks.
Canon HF M400 probably unbeatable considering price\quality ratio, and there is no way I would go back to tape, being tapeless is great, there is no capture it's just file transfer, but it comes with the price - AVCHD is MUCH heavier codec than HDV, and takes lot more processing power, so be prepared :)

My $0.02 worth is that I agree with everything that everybody said above, which does not help with the decision, does it?

My suggestions and comments for narrowing down your choices.

First off, the HC7 shoots HDV to mini-DV tapes. It is not a standard def camera (unless you want it to be.) So, we are actually talking about HDV and mini-DV, right? Your camera is not quite as antiquated as the "miniDV" tagline might have implied. You are asking about whether it makes sense to buy tape-based cameras anymore? There is a clear consenus here: don't buy a tape camera if you do not have to.

Second, what is wrong with the HC7? Is the tape compartment not opening or closing properly any more? Or, maybe you are having problems with drop-outs when recording? A tapeless recording unit could sort-of solve these problems. But, the least expensive tapeless add-on unit would be a Data Video DN60 which goes for about $450. It would not require a computer upgrade (assuming you might need one if you moved up to AVCHD.) But, tapeless add-on units are about the same size and weight as your HC7 and need their own batteries or power supply. Not a big deal when shooting from a tripod but a definite hassle when shooting hand-held. Plus, the cost goes a long way towards buying even a low-end tapeless camcorder (as long as you do not need a computer upgrade to work with AVCHD).

Third, if you've got playback issues --- maybe the firewire port on the little HC7 is getting worn and not making good contact all the time --- or other hardware issues --- maybe the autofocus is going out --- then an add-on is not a great idea and buying a new camera is probably where you want to go. Buying a used Canon HV20/30/40 or another Sony HC cam seems like a better idea except for the possibility of those cameras having or developing similar problems. If your HC7 is rapidly heading down the road to Toastville, a used cam would only be a stop-gap. You will still have something to play the old tapes and HDV is not a bad format to use with such little cameras.

Fourth, if your HC7 still does okay with tape-playback, and your computer system is only a couple or three years old, it may make a lot of sense to get a new AVCHD camera. Do you shoot a much video? Do you shoot very short clips or do you shoot longer, continuous footage (say, school plays or sports)? For shorter video, Dave's suggestion of a simple P&S cmaera (and that is P&S not POS) may be workable. If you shoot longer clips, a CX or similar camera may work. The CX160 would be pretty similar to your HC7 and goes for $490, and you might find yourself surprised at how capable this little unit is. There is a recent long thread here about using a CX160 in shooting a dance recital.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/495672-amateur-recital-video-production.html

Jay, you've brought up many good points. First, I shoot HDV on MiniDV cassettes. I don't think my HC7 is an antique since it does support 1080i and does everything I need it to, including support my Rode VideoMic.

My HC7 has a mechanical problem that seems to be common on the HC3/HC5. The camera gives an error code C:31:23 which indicates a problem potentially with the supply reel. The problem typically occurs while rewinding and trying to play.

My HC7 sometimes just records a black screen with no sound and the only indication that it's not recording is that the timecode has restarted from 0 instead of the timecode on the tape. I've performed complete power down resets many time which does help for a small period of time. I 've run a tape head cleaner through it, and I've closely examined the mechanism for dirt, broken or loose parts, etc.

Sony's only advise was to send it in for repair, which was somewhere around $400 with Sony. I know there are other less expensive places to have it repaired, but it's still likely around $200 or more. Sony's aready repaired this HC7 once while under warranty due to excessively load motor noise in the recordings.

After reading the comments and thinking it through, I'm not going to buy a used or new MiniDV video camera. I'm begining to like the idea of replacing my HC7 with the CX160 or similar Canon. I think $500 is a good price target for me. Although the Sony Nex 3/5 look great, for me I need my video camera to be a little more compact that the Nex cameras with the large lenses.

I shoot both short clips and large events such as graduations, sporting events, etc. As for editing AVCHD, I have a 1 year old custom PC with an Intel i7 quad core @2.8 GHz, 6GB RAM.

Thanks for all the comments. I agree it's time to ditch MiniDV and to look at other technologies. Thanks for mentioning the Sony Nex 3 or 5. It looks like an interesting camera that possibly could fill my need for both photos and videos. I plan to give the Nex a serious look as well as competing products as this market develops.

I already have a very nice prosumer compact, a Canon G11, but unfortunately when I bought it I didn't have a need for it for videos. So I'm stuck with its SD and monoural capabilities. Even the G11 successor, the G12, only does HD at 720p 24fps. If I want 30fps, it's back to SD.

I might play around with my G11 and see how it does for video. Given my need is personal use, and my delivery format is DVD, this might suffice for now. But I really hate to take steps backwards in the quality of my projects, especially in audio.

I also have a G11...I bought it as a carry around camera in my "pre-video" days too. It's a great camera, and I got thousands of terrific photos from it, but when I shot the FIRST frame with a NEX in the store, I was completely blown away by the difference.

The video quality was, even then, not a huge tripping point....that came shortly after. The stills quality of the Nex is simply superb, and the only thing holding it back from being a mainstream video system is the dang thing is so small no one takes it seriously.

As I said, I've shot with it as a B-cam on a number of shoots, and just booked another one today in a dental surgeons office, where it will in all likelyhood be the A camera because of it's size.

A new version of firmware is scheduled for release on June 20 that will give it focus peaking as well as a few other "artsy" modes. The peaking will function during video shooting, which makes using the camera with a legacy, manual focus lens a very realistic choice.

The G11 is still a great little P&S camera; it's found a permanent home on my gigapan unit, and will likely stay there. The NEX has taken it's place as my "go everywhere" camera

Your system should be able to edit AVCHD, so that is not a concern.

I suggested a CX160 simply because it happens to be the only one of the less expensive cams that I know a little bit about it. (Emphasis is on "knowing little"). There may be other small cams with similar capabilities. Check out the dance recital link which also had some examples of footage and discussed the features that it had and does not have. The discussion was continued in another posting in the Vegas forum, so the video examples might be there.

Well, at least you don't have to budget for a computer upgrade TOO...

$500 is a tight budget point, you're right at the upper end of the really "consumer-y" cameras, and below the semi - decent consumer top of the line stuff... even the HC7 was about 2x that when new... while you typically get "more" bang every year, the manufacturers tend to stick to the general "buck" points as far as features, you drop below certain points, and the features just ain't there.

Any Sony "still" camera (P&S or NEX) will have a 29 minute clip limit, but you can just restart when needed.

You mention the Rode, so you're probably really back into a video camera form factor. I'd recommend you bump the budget a little and look at last years Sony CX550V, pretty nice balance of features and performance, probably between $700-1000 depending on your bargain hunting skills. While there are a few new features in the 2011 models, I haven't seen any compelling reason to upgrade from the CX550... it's sort of the natural evolution of the HC series.

Just for the record, I did, at the end of December. Your needs may well be different.

At work much of my video is still for SD 4:3 (for viewing on our smartboards and 4:3 computer monitors) with some SD 16:9 required. I am never asked for any HD footage but do actually acquire some footage as HD and downconvert if it looks like it will be needed for some time.

For me, tape is still the most convenient and accountable way of storing all original footage (which is a requirement of our filming policy in school). All original footage is available for inspection if required, every project on its own tape. No tapes are ever reused nor is any footage deleted. Reassuringly simple for managers who are distrustful of hard drives and memory cards having experienced the consequences of failures and lost data.

Since I will be retiring soon, would I buy a tape based camera now, 6 months later? Possibly not.
But I have recently archived some of my own projects, which were shot straight to hard drive, to HDV tape.

One myth I would like to scotch is that consumer AVCHD cameras produce better images than similar HDV tape machines (unless someone can prove otherwise of course). I use an HV40 and a TM900 (AVCHD). Both are fantastic cameras for the money but for me, the TM900 does not shoot better video (though does have a 50p setting if that is important to you but is very difficult to edit). The images on both are wonderful btw.

So if money is an issue and HV40 is going cheap I'd grab it while you can - the general mood from this thread shows why they are cheap - it is nothing to do with image quality but everything to do with dislike of tape and a sense one must move with the times and to be fair it is hard not too with people predicting the demise of firewire for instance.

But I am biased cos I love tape and have no idea why people hate it so much - it's so convenient! And on my MacBook Pro it takes just as long to log and transfer the AVCHD files into FCP converting to ProRes 422, as it does to play, revue and capture footage from tape.

If you do decide on tapeless, the TM900 is incredible for the price and many think it the best around.

Although I like the storage offered by MiniDV, I won't be spending any more money on the format. I've been looking at the Canon Vixia M400 and it will probably be the model I buy to replace my failing HC7. The funny thing is that the tape mechanism on my old and first MiniDV camcorder, the Canon Elura, still works fine. I still occassionally use the Elura for recording audio with its audio line in.

Just as an extra thought. I now use tapeless camcorders (Sony EX3 ^ Canon XF305) and find them convenient to use etc. However, the one ting that I do miss, is the transfer of video to computer. With tape I could sit and review all the material as it is being downloaded. With memory card I have to watch the status bar going up and then review the material. OK so I can scrub the content and see a quick preview, but often watching the content in real time is the best option.

Having said all that, the thing that annoys me most about tape, is trying to get FireWire to recognize the camera, sometimes this would take several attempts and a re-boot before it got going, other times it would just get on with the job.

I wouldn't go back to tape, especially after my camera chewed up a couple of tapes and at other times when there was a slight bit of moisture on the head the first few minutes were lost.

Interesting comments about firewire. I have been working in broadcast TV
since 1998 and had my own business since 2002 editing video for news
stations, PBS stations, corporate video, documentaries, TV commercials,
weddings, events and government meetings, as well as doing live video
webcasts and never ONCE have I had an issue with firewire. It always
just worked for me. USB 2 is what has always given me issues. I
actually wish MORE cameras had firewire on them instead of USB 2!

The problem with Firewire isn't the technology. It's that the market is leaving it behind.

Speaking of technologies that go out of the mainstream but are still viable, I wonder if the Super 8 format will get a resurgence, based on the film by the same name. (BTW, the film rocks.)

Will USB 3 be faster than firewire?

Will USB 3 be faster than firewire?

Anything is faster than FireWire, since it limits you to "real time only" capture. Whereas USB 2 & 3 are simply data transfer, faster than real time.

Quote: Will USB 3 be faster than firewire?

For cameras? I'm with Chris on this.

As long as we are talking cameras, it seems like a moot question to me. AFAIK, only tape-based cameras have firewire ports of any kind and they use them only to play tape out (data streaming) rather than file transfer.

Maybe the question matters for those shooting to CF or SD cards and using a card reader to feed the files from the card to computer? To me, that seems off topic for a discussion of whether to buy a small tape based or a small tapeless camera.

Well, my FireWire card reader is indeed much faster than my USB 2 card reader, but that doesn't really matter, since the subject here is MiniDV or HDV tape -- and the only way you can get that tape into the computer is by playing it back in real time, over FireWire. So yes, in *that* context, we're all in agreement that USB 2 or 3 is going to be much faster than FireWire.

Things could be worse, imagine if we still had the SCSI port - my Nikon coolscan uses this, but then it also has an inch of dust on it :-(

I recently purchased a PreSonus Firestudio Mobile external audio device, this uses Firewire. I was told that Firewire doesn't make excessive demands on your CPU, compared to USB and therefore would be a better choice for audio work.

Pro grade Camcorders use Firewire because it delivers constant data transfer speed, therefore less likely to incur dropped frames. USB shares data transfer with other processes, therefore you might suffer a few dropped frames. Memory card or straight data transfer will not have this problem as it is just data transfer which does not rely on minute for minute transfer times. If the data transfer is shared with another process then it will just transfer slower, you will not get dropped frames, maybe corrupted data.

The short answer to the original question is, No, move with the times, MiniDV will join the Compact Cassette in a couple of years time.

Throwing my hat into the USB 3 discussion:

USB 3 will never replace Firewire as a constant feed of data. All USB variants require initialization for a "stream" to start. You cannot plug it in and instantly expect a signal.

IMHO, SDI should be where the prosumer market should head into. It's already happening with NXCAM and the XF cameras. PCI-E SDI cards also help bypass any problems with USB 3 breakout boxes that could have cable problems that could risk BSODs to the receiving machine.

But, if there's a way to put HDV in a ASI signal, that inherently replaces Firewire altogether.