I've read a few things on the rolling shutter problem that DSLRs suffer from and I'm still not 100% sure what to be careful of.

From what Ive gathered, is it only problematic with strobes, camera flashes, flashing/blinking lights, and fast movement?

Is there any way around the rolling shutter?

Almost all pans unless done really slow will cause rolling shutter on the 7D.
This and the bad moire effects convinced me that for general shooting DSLR's are not for me. Great for interviews and controlled environments but as a doc maker you can never always plan where you shoot. Not sure if these can be overcome now or in the future. I know there was a plugin for final cut to deal with rolling shutter in post - or actually I think it was for iMovie!

Oh, ok, so it really depends on what you shoot? I'm only planning on doing interviews and narrative shorts

I think rolling shutter is not as bad as Moire - its not as distinct because most rolling shutter occurs when the camera is in motion.

For example last year as part of a documentary I filmed at a gym but unfortunately it was on a trampoline ... and the entire segment is unusable because the movement in the trampoline springs caused really bad moire patterns. Even heavy woodgrain can cause this.

This was one of those moments that put the last nail in the coffin for my DSLR work. I have the FS-100 being delivered this week.

Did you use any type of stabilizer, it sounds like a glide cam or something similar couldve fixed it. But a trampoline seems like an extreme case

The rolling shutter of my 7D was bad enough that I bought Foundry's plugin. It is the progressive scanning of fields downward the sensor, top to bottom and the delay causes the frames to be "bent". Or however you want to explain it.

There tutorials out there to fix it, and you surely can write your own script with a little bit of time with some after effects know how. Im sure there's plugins for FCP and Vegas as well.

Oh, ok, so it really depends on what you shoot? I'm only planning on doing interviews and narrative shorts

For interviews it's a non-issue. Moire is a bigger issue with interviews. If they wear men's dress shirts (corporate), ask them to wear a high-thread-count shirt. I typically shoot about eight to ten feet away with an 85mm lens on a 5D2, and shirts with coarse fabric really dance around.

For narrative, rolling shutter is worst when there is no dominant object tracked to draw the eye and when there are straight vertical lines. If you track a person or moving object and the background is organic, the audience won't notice, unless they're camera nerds. ;)

Working on fiction you can plan for these things - yes....please go change your shirt...wardrobe!!
As a doc maker I have no choice.
One time I had to shoot a head shot because the woman wore a bad pattern dress and it danced like crazy.

For a doc maker the small DSLR form is great - but I would not consider using one again in an uncontrolled situation. Just too many problems to overcome and you simply do not have the time in documentary work ... and don't even get me started on the audio problem...!!

If you track a person or moving object and the background is organic, the audience won't notice, unless they're camera nerds. ;)

Organic, you mean nothing in the background like buildings?

I'm mostly worried about dolly shots or crane shots.

Right, vertical lines in buildings and fencelines and such will 'smear' or 'wiggle like jello' when the camera is panned or dollies too fast.

Very tricky for aviation use where propellers and rotor blades can be really horrible.

Take a look at this video:

YouTube - ‪Austin Horse Rides San Francisco‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFes40A-gbo) (If you don't wanna watch the whole piece skip to about 0:57)

Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.

Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.

Oh yeah I definitely see what you mean. really fast motion. I can see how it could be problematic with documentary work like the example shown, but for narratives it seems like an easier problem to control.

Im starting to see what to avoid.

Take a look at this video:

YouTube - ‪Austin Horse Rides San Francisco‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFes40A-gbo) (If you don't wanna watch the whole piece skip to about 0:57)

Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.

Thanks for the link. Good example.

There is a glut of video out there recently from all the new DSLR shooters that exhibit horrible problems and its almost as if the photographers are either unaware of the problem or unable to edit out the footage. A lot of unnaceptable stuff I cannot watch.

Now I have to put this down to the enormous amount of unexperienced filmmakers that are able to join the indie filmmaking bandwagon due to the lower price of admission. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's really great to have young eager filmmakers.
But when you pay over a years salary for a camera like I have done in the past, you tend to not compromise and you set a higher goal to reach. It lifts your game. Having said that some great work has been done on 5D's and 7D's.

So I say if you are using a DSLR please know its limits which are many. If like me you cannot afford to work in those limits you get a F3. Its now possible for $5k to get a FS-100 shooting on 35mm... and without the DSLR's this amazing camera would not have been made!

Jon, I understand your point and appreciate your perspective however, I personally think that DSLRs (with decent support, paired with proper sound gear) is perfectly competent for documentary shooting as long as you have an understanding of your equipment and its capabilities and limits.

Our company produces high quality documentary style videos using only DSLRs but, our subjects don't require too much dramatic camera movement and action.

Truth be told, had I the resources and time I would have shot the above linked footage on a HVX200 or something more applicable for the job and had I edited the footage, I would have probably not have included the shot with the shutter roll distortion (or made efforts to fix it).

In many cases a DSLR can be fine in doc work ... but not the majority given the drawbacks especially when you cannot choose location or even subject which is my case in docs.

But the biggest compromise that many do not realize until they start shooting is that you end up with a larger crew!! Yes I got into DSLR's due to the small form factor - great for docs, but when you have to build a rig to shoot with and use an assistant to record audio ... what is the point?

A rig that looks like a christmas tree and is completely off-balance?

Slightly off topic but it is a serious factor.

DSLRs for documentary...it really depends on what kind of documentary you're doing. For general docu work I would never encourage somebody to buy a DSLR. The lack of auto focus, 12 minutes rec time, no motorized zoom, to shallow dof, rolling shutter, moire, form factor, etc. These are all factors that for general docu work are totally inappropriate. But if you can get around them somehow or if your documentary work isn't ENG type then by all means use a DSLR - why not...

As for the rolling shutter: if your work is going to be more static then no problem. But if you plan on doing ENG the no go.

But this all depends on your quality standards and of those for whom your doing this.

Here a rather graphic display of rolling shutter: YouTube - ‪CMOS Vs CCD Rolling Shutter Effect + Jello Effect Kawasaki ZX-11‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaDrS-yzIE&feature=related)

Nothing wrong with double system sound, a focus puller, careful panning to avoid judder and 12 minute limit before needing to 'reload' - but if I'm going to follow a film workflow - I'd rather shoot on film.

And yes, I started in television when news was 'film at 10 O'clock' back in the 70's.

The DSLR workflow and image has it's place in doc work, but so does everything else, as other's have said - understanding the needs and limitations of subject matter, crew demands, format and delivery is key.

...but when you have to build a rig to shoot with and use an assistant to record audio ... what is the point?

I don't think a larger crew is really required. But you can't just buy the camera and shoot either.

If I wanted to be a one man doc crew, I'd get an EVF and build a rig that puts the camera on my shoulder for better balance. For audio, I'd run a juicedLink preamp and record into the camera on manual gain. One channel would have a small, light shotgun on the rig. The other channel would be used with a handheld mic that I can reach closer to the talent, or a lav for set interviews. For a lens, I'd go with a normal zoom with IS along with a fast normal prime for low light as my core kit. Bring along a tripod that is made to carry the camera on the rig. Snap and go. Build a case or backpack that can hold the rig with minimal assembly and disassembly.

Ideally, you would have one assistant, regardless of the camera you use. That person can lug the tripod, arrange interviews, get release forms signed, and operate a boom. They could carry a preamp, recorder, and a break-away cable to your camera/preamp if you want the option for higher quality sound in addition to the cut-and-go sound recorded into the camera.

You can almost always build a kit for a DSLR that meets your needs. For events, that kit might include a cheap HD camcorder on a cheap, fixed tripod to help you bridge the 12-minute limit. Just don't expect a DSLR to do everything you need right out of the box.

I always shoot with an assistant - as I only shoot in Asia and I have a translator and usually a driver with me. I have a full time assistant in Beijing so I am lucky I can do this. I always have 2 or 3 people with me.
But many of the new users to DSLR - shooting for the first time are simply lacking this infrastructure which took me 12 years to build up. I think a lot of folks underestimate this and forget that DSLR shooting usually means more planning than normal.
Once you take this into account the main reason many go the DSLR route - the low budget - is often the wrong reason thats all.
I used a 7D on my last film because I needed very small form factor (I also own a EX3). But at ther end of the day I would always prefer a full motion picture cam ... thats why I think the new FS-100 is a good buy for me.

Scarlet should be a killer doc cam too. The sensor speed should be quick, so rolling shutter should be minimal. It won't have aliasing. The DOF will have the classic 16mm look. It will have built-in balanced stereo inputs. The zoom range of the fixed is perfect for most projects, though for low light, one would want a cam with interchangeable lenses. A Scarlet and a DSLR would make a nice pair.

They just announced 120fps at 2k on the Scarlett. But shipping in reasonable numbers - meaning actually buying one will be next year I think. They say fall but with Red you add 6 more months always.

So yes the 8x fixed will be good for docs but with a small sensor not a movie camera for me. the elns alone is worth it though.

I'd call it a "medium" sensor, rather than small, but point taken.