I am shooting a graduation and the grads come in following bag pipes. What would be the best way to mic the pipes. I have a sennhieser G2 wireless as well as one shot gun mic but he walks across and entire arena floor and we wont have an audio guy. I was thinking of putting a lav on the piper but I don't know where would be a good location. Thanks.

For Bag Pipes the best results will be with a mike at least half a mile away?

Seriously, maybe consider putting the lav mike behind the piper. You may have a problem with the signal strength, depending how large the arena is. A better option may be to attach a portable recorder to the piper. Also record the sound with your camera using your shotgun mike, at least you will have two sound tracks. The two sound sources can be joined using Plural Eyes software.

Good luck

ps I did do a recording of a bagpiper a few years back and just used the cameras built in mike

YouTube - ‪MDV.mov‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISGHu-jU76g)

Ooops, sorry I forgot, I took out the sound track, but the bagpipes were OK, just had to turn the audio gain right down.

Bag pipes are very very loud and have a narrow frequency range so the comment about a mic half a mile away is not as comical as it sounds.

They reverberate around everywhere so I would not put a mic too close as it may well overload and distort, if you are shooting in a room then why not pre rig a mic that is in a fixed position so that you can get the ambient sound in the room and then add this to whatever sound you get from the camera mic or the presentation mic if you have one.

As they are so loud you could probably just use the camera mic but beware that they are so very loud so watch you levels, I presume with this being a presentation that you will be in a fixed position for the pres area so it may be that just keeping it simple and have a room mic (camera position?) for the ambient sound on one track and the pres/lecturn or radio mic on the stage for any audio there.

One other option is to rig a stereo recorder to get the ambient room sound and then this could be added to your main sound track in stereo, once again levels will be the key thing here but you may be lucky and get to set a level before the main event.

Ive actually recorded a fair amount of bagpipe when I was an engineer/producer at a studio in new York. The last thing you want to do is get a mic anywhere near the bagpipe!
It really is an outdoor instrument meant to have it's sound carry for miles.
Camera mic wouldn't be a bad choice.
Trust me, even with the piper walking across the stadium, getting enough sound won't be a problem!


We used to use a pair of u87s as a spaced pair (following the 3-1 rule) about 10 feet from the pipes and 30 feet apart! That was outdoors! The stereo micing was to pick up the echo off of anything the sound hit. Indoors in our studio, we'd normally use 1 mic about 10-15 feet away as the room had very little echo.
We would put it in a space in post with EFX.
The thing is the sound eminates from the whole instrument. To get a proper balance between the drones and chanter, it requires space.
Same mistake is made all the time with woodwind instruments like sax, flute, clarinet and even stringed instruments like violin, cello, and acoustic guitar. Instruments in general are meant to project sound.
The reason people mic them too closely all the time is to compensate for crappy environments. With bagpipes, 10 feet is close micing!

Recently got this email from a friend.....

My neighbour knocked on my door at 2:30am this morning,
can you believe that 2:30am?!
Luckily for him I was still up playing my Bagpipes.

Bagpipes were invented by the Scots to scare the opposing army into retreating before any fighting had started. They are perfect for this application.

+1 the previous comments: you do not want to mic them closely because of the level, and because it is not really a point source.

OTOH in a large arena, if you mic them too far, I fear the sound of the instrument itself may be overwhelmed by reverb as well as noise from the crowd... graduations are usually quite enthusiastic.

If your camera is perhaps 25 or 30 feet away, that might be a good distance. Otherwise Vincent (who should know) may have a good suggestion about a lav behind he piper, feeding a portable recorder.

Any chance you could try a test with the piper beforehand?

When I was in the army (Welsh Guards Band) our barrack room was next door to the Scots Guards Pipers, and although they used practice pipes first thing in the morning (a lot quieter) they would use the full works from 8 am onwards. I still have nightmares of them to this day.

I retract all my advice and advise you to use a SHOTGUN preferably a 12 bore and put everyone out of their misery.

ps. you didn't mention if this was an outdoor or indoor arena, either way a mike on the edge of the arena should do the trick.

:-)

There is one good way of making sure that the pipes are never heard, just fill the piper up with scotland's best whisky!

Although having thought about that it may cost you an awful lot of money and not be effective but actually make him play with more enthusiasm!

Vincent, I feel your pain. I have always felt that hell is filled with bagpipes and/or accordions... hopefully not playing in ensemble.

Assuming that whiskey is a good pain killer, perhaps you should fill up everyone within earshot.

I loved the responses! Very true about the pipes they are loud. It is a 6000 seat hockey arena and the pies walk around the outside of the rink and I am in a fixed position at centre ice. I am sure my on camera mic will work but I just thought I'd see if anyone else has done this before. When I worked at the local TV station before it shut down the legion was a few blocks away and sometimes you could hear the practice on the 6 oclock news.

For dialog, we want to mic close and avoid reverb. For acoustic instruments, you want to balance the sound of the instrument and the sound of the space. French Horns are a classic example. Mic them close and they sound thin as paper. Let them fill a space and they can be amazingly powerful.

For simplicity, you might go with an x-y pair or a mid-side setup. Both will let you capture a stereo field from a single location. Mid-side has the advantage of collapsing to mono without phase issues. Then again, most all delivery and playback is stereo these days. I have a friend who swears by using omni mics 50cm apart, which can also be done on a single stand.

Placement is the challenge. Too far and it's mushy. Too close and it's thin. Some spots might resonate with too much or too little bass. If you can't rehearse and test, it will be largely up to luck.

With them walking by, you will get phase changes no matter what. The omni pair would be the best if you leave it stationary. The mid-side might be best if you pan the mics to follow the action. Moving an x-y pair would probably be the ugliest from a phase change point of view.

Actually, if the pipes are walking the entire 360 degrees around the outside of the rink, that will be a challenge. Cardioids might be problematic, because you'd lose a lot of level and HF information when the mics were behind you. If you recorded M/S with an omni for your main channel, you would get a consistent stereo image. A pair of close spaced omnis would also work, but I tend to think they would have very little separation/directionality if the piper is 100' or so distant.

I have to admit that I have never recorded bagpipes in a hockey arena. Every now and then I get lucky. ;-)

('Though, actually, I would love to have a chance to try it.)

Now now now - Accordions can sound wonderful. The first time my wife and I went to Italy we actually visited several accordion factories - even had them show us how they tune them (YES you can tune an accordion) and she wound up having one custom made. The Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor really sounds good IF the accordionist is up to it.

And I like the pipes as well although they are LOUD!

More than you want to know about tuning an accordion

You tune them by making a slight scratch with a file near the base of each reed - it alters the pitch slightly but it you overdo it you have to replace the reed and start over. Tuning a large accordion is a full day job for an experienced worker. The best reeds are still hand made.

I have no idea how you tune a pipe other than changing the alcohol level of the player.

Q How does a piper change a light bulb? A Stand on a chair with the light bulb held overhead and drink until the room spins

Accordion tuning (sic) sounds a bit like tuning the reeds on an old-time harmonium or pump organ.

As I recall, if the reed is sharp, that means the reed is too stiff, so you remove a bit of metal from the reed, near where the reed joins the mounting block. That makes the reed a bit more "floppy" so it will vibrate a bit more slowly.

OTOH if it's flat, you can't put the metal back, so you then think in terms of the reed having too much mass. In that case you remove a bit of metal near the tip of the reed, reducing its mass and thus allowing it to vibrate a bit more quickly.

A few years ago, I met a lady who sang native Ukrainian folk songs (which were originally sung, usually, a cappella) and accompanied herself on an Indian (as in the country India, not native American) harmonium. A very interesting sounding combination... and she was an extremely expressive singer. Unfortunately she was very protective of her material and performance and would not allow any recording. I thought rather highly of her, or I might have been tempted to bootleg...

Exactly - where to scrape is important. Makes me think of an interview I saw with a Mohel - the guy who performs ritual Jewish circumcisions. He was asked how he knew how much to take off and he replied that this was the wrong question - the right question was how he knew how much to leave on.

Sorry - I couldn't resist.I promise to be good!

Pipes are tuned in the same way as most woodwind instruments, you extend the length of the pipe by pulling it out slightly to lower the pitch or pushing it in to raise the pitch.

Reeds are generally trimmed to make them vibrate more freely, it won't alter the pitch, that will be set by the length of pipe.

I knew all those years of playing the clarinet and bassoon would come in handy one day.:-)

Bagpipes were invented by the Scots to scare the opposing army into retreating before any fighting had started. They are perfect for this application.
...?

Actually they were invented by the Irish who then gave them to the Scots as a joke. The Scots still haven't got it.

Isn't it true that the oboe has very limited tuning ability? I've heard that that's one reason s symphony orchestra tunes to the oboe's A.

Tuning can be quite a process. My wife's piano was regulated last week (adjusting the action - a 3 day process) and towards the end the piano tuner re-tuned the piano - my wife was in the kitchen and got a funny look on her face and said something about the piano sounding flat, and then ran in and asked him not to tune to A=440Hz but to A=442 Hz. And of course she wanted some octaves stretched and others slightly compressed.

I know that older brass instruments used to have tuning crooks that would let you adjust plus/minus around A=437, but now the US is on A=440 and I think Europe is at A=442. And bands tune to Bb and orchestras to A.

I've never played a woodwind - just piano and Tuba/Euphonium.

Years ago we studio recorded all the bagpipe tracks for a Scots highland dance school.

They sent 1 (one) piper along to record the whole syllabus in 3 hour sessions.

Watching the poor guy slowly turn red then blue in the face, after 2hrs I devised the following procedure; we recorded the bag only for 1min. on 2 tracks then looped it for about 10mins. Then we recorded all the pipe melodies over the other 22 tracks.

Later I set the playback levels and reverb for our kid to mix down, while we all went to the pub.

Saved the pipers life, my sanity and eventually a nice malt arrived along with a promptly paid invoice.

Cheers.

Isn't it true that the oboe has very limited tuning ability? I've heard that that's one reason s symphony orchestra tunes to the oboe's A.

I know that older brass instruments used to have tuning crooks that would let you adjust plus/minus around A=437, but now the US is on A=440 and I think Europe is at A=442. And bands tune to Bb and orchestras to A.


No we use 440 here in Europe too. The Oboe is used for tuning as it produces the purest sounding A (concert pitch). Brass instruments still extend the tubes (slides) to alter pitch, as do Horns, Flutes, Clarinets and other
woodwind instruments.

Calvin, I Hope all this information is helping you with recording Bagpipes :-) we want to hear the final result when you complete the task.

...we recorded the bag only for 1min. on 2 tracks then looped it for about 10mins. Then we recorded all the pipe melodies over the other 22 tracks.


That's clever. Full marks and a large dram of Glen Walkabout!

To be serious (if briefly) just one thing I'm not clear about, normally the chanter (the melody bit) is 'powered' from the bag and therefore never stops playing. Did you just remove the drones and stick corks (from bottles of malt?) in the bag or did your piper blow the chanter directly? If the latter, that would not quite produce the correct effect as pauses in the sound for breathing are not a feature of bagpipe music. Might do for dance practice though.

Much more importantly: there's a lot of possibilities here for the recording of music generally
eg record 1 minute from the snare drum in Bolero then tell him/her to go and set up the drinks;
or send the continuo out for some fizz after a few times through the Pachelbel Canon ground bass;
and as for all these tedious da capo arias, let the soprano record the repeated section by herself (with all these egocentric ornaments) while the rest of us do something useful.

I definitely think you may have started something here, Alan. I have clearly been wasting my life when recording music. Trust an Aussie to get to the heart of the matter!

Actually they were invented by the Irish who then gave them to the Scots as a joke. The Scots still haven't got it.

It's even more complex than that:

Bagpipes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagpipes)

The difference between bagpipes and a harmonica.
.
.
.
The harmonica only sucks half the time!!
(could not resist)

To be serious (if briefly) just one thing I'm not clear about, normally the chanter (the melody bit) is 'powered' from the bag and therefore never stops playing. Did you just remove the drones and stick corks (from bottles of malt?) in the bag or did your piper blow the chanter directly? If the latter, that would not quite produce the correct effect as pauses in the sound for breathing are not a feature of bagpipe music. Might do for dance practice though.

I definitely think you may have started something here, Allan. I have clearly been wasting my life when recording music. Trust an Aussie to get to the heart of the matter!

Thanks Col :) it was many years ago and from memory I believe the piper removed the chanter from the bag and just played straight into it, like a piccolo .. he might have improvised a mouthpiece .. or he might have used a prrractice chanter .. can't remember.

But it worked, back in those days, most producer/engineers came up with solutions like that as a matter of routine. The sixties was a great time to be in the recording biz. and a fantastic place to visit when in London is Abbey Road, you could spend all afternoon in the mic room. Bit off topic but they have mics in there from the 1930s, you can still rent them for sessions and retired very elderly techs still come by to service them. Don't miss it.

Cheers.

The difference between bagpipes and a harmonica.
.
.
.
The harmonica only sucks half the time!!
(could not resist)
So, what do banjo players consider "perfect pitch"?
.
.
.
When you can throw an accordion in a dumpster from 10 yards...
.
.
.
and hit the bagpipes.
(could not resist ether)

Hey, this is the kind of thing that makes acoustic (ie REAL) instruments so much fun and so challenging to record well - they follow their own versions of the laws of physics.

Thanks Col :) it was many years ago and from memory I believe the piper removed the chanter from the bag and just played straight into it, like a piccolo .. he might have improvised a mouthpiece .. or he might have used a prrractice chanter .. can't remember.

But it worked, back in those days, most producer/engineers came up with solutions like that as a matter of routine. The sixties was a great time to be in the recording biz. and a fantastic place to visit when in London is Abbey Road, you could spend all afternoon in the mic room. Bit off topic but they have mics in there from the 1930s, you can still rent them for sessions and retired very elderly techs still come by to service them. Don't miss it.

Cheers.

I think this would not be the best way to record/play the pipes in a studio. The reeds are very sensitive to moisture and the pitch changes as the humidity in the wood changes. Mouth-blowing the cnahtger will saurate the reed very quickly. In addition to continous airflow, the bag help control the humidity. in fact many bags have a moisture control system (canisters of kitty litter like material that the air passes through) in them to keep moisture and thus tuning more constant.

The best way is to record the drones and chanter at the same time, but I have seen it done where the piper first plays the drones and this is recorded as a background track. The drones are then corked and the piper plays the melody on the chanter. Many tunes have harmonies and the same piper can then go back and record the harmonies. Tuning will always be a problem in these cases. Melodies recorded later in the session may not be in tune with the drones recorded earlier and the reeds get damp and the piper's stamina drops.

Back to the original poster the on camera mic will probably be perfectly adequate for the pipes will be loud. Any lav you would try to put on the piper will not work. On the front the sound level will be too high and will saturate the mic. The problem with putting on his back is that the drones stick over the shoulder and you will not get a good balance with the chanter.

The only other option would be a shot-gun or hyper on a boom following 15-20ft from the piper.

Pipes in harmony has always been a step too far for me - it's a recent innovation and not in the tradition. The use of a shotgun in these circumstances has already been mentioned - both barrels right through the bag (no jury would convict you).

YouTube - ‪St Laurence O'Toole at the Scottish Championships 2011‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0AK4vinq8)

:)

To give every one an update i decided to try just having a mic in the middle of the arena to pick up the sound the best I could. I didn't like the result as there was too much room noise. I know with bagpipes how can there be too much room noise but there was. I will try something else next year....don't know what that is yet. Thanks for the input.

When we planned a tour to Romania a couple years ago, we were warned that the pipe organs in several venues were NOT A=440, but various older tunings. We programmed into the concerts time for the orchestra to re-tune to the organ, but discovered that most of them could just "bend" their pitches to match the pipe-organ du jour which was a pleasant surprise to us.

Why do bagpipe players walk while they are playing? To get away from the noise.

Why we should all have a long boom pole available...

Hawick|Producer Esther Johnson and film crew at work on 21 February 2013 on the former goods platform alongside the site of Hawick station. [See image 25301] (http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=26991)

Came across this photo in an article about a film being made about the Waverley railway line (closed under the "Beeching" cuts but about to be partially rebuilt).

I can't help feeling that mic is too close!

The first two minutes of the video linked below contains a bagpiper moving behind the camera and to the left. The microphone is a Sennheiser ME-2 omni velcroed to the podium microphone gooseneck fed into a Sennheiser G3 transmitter on the podium. Later in the video the piper starts up and moves to a position behind and to the right of the podium, then walks away to the right and back. You can see the distance from the piper to the microphone in the video.

2012ShawneeHills03 on Vimeo

The first two minutes of the video linked below contains a bagpiper moving behind the camera and to the left. The microphone is a Sennheiser ME-2 omni velcroed to the podium microphone gooseneck fed into a Sennheiser G3 transmitter on the podium. Later in the video the piper starts up and moves to a position behind and to the right of the podium, then walks away to the right and back. You can see the distance from the piper to the microphone in the video.

2012ShawneeHills03 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/53718826)

"Sorry the creator of this video has not given you permission to embed it in this domain" :-(

BUT - if you click on the link in the quote above it seems to work. :-)

Thanks for posting that John. I have my Vimeo account set so videos cannot be downloaded which is what I am surmising caused the message.

The first two minutes and the last two minutes are where the bag piper is playing. The last two minutes are Amazing Grace. You can hear when the piper turns and walks away.

A Scotsman may have invented "the Pipes", but it takes a 'proper Irishman' to play them correctly. Heh, heh!

Interesting discussion. I think it's the only time I've actually heard the 'audio Gurus' telling folks it's okay to have the mic. on the camera.

Take care,

J.

"Interesting discussion. I think it's the only time I've actually heard the 'audio Gurus' telling folks it's okay to have the mic. on the camera."

And the 'audio gurus' may be correct. Here is a video of a bagpiper in the worst possible conditions - outside next to a busy London street. The bagpipes sound comes through loud and clear (and in stereo) despite the terrific pedestrain and traffic noise no matter what the distance or angle using an on-camera mic:

Bagpipes on a London Street - YouTube (http://youtu.be/4XIOjoo-Q8k)

Select 1080p.

Bagpipes must be the easiest instrument to record of any!

In fact, there are loads of London street bagpiper videos on Youtube, and the bagpipes all sound the same - perfectly clear no matter what the distance.

"The Pipes" do cut-through the ambient noise quite effectively. I suppose it's why it's used during the cacophony of battle, you can hear "your side".

When I was in the army "Welsh Guards Band" our billet was next door to the Scots Guards pipers, they always practiced at 6.30 am. The best position for any microphone would be the mute position or -128db.