Why not dual layer, 8.5GB DVD's?

The resolution of 352x480 is about the same as analog NTSC broadcast. While a 720x480 encode cropped pan-scan to 528x480 may be sharper, it is a matter of opinion how significant this improvement is when viewing the program on a CRT television.

The retailers here are selling blu-ray players for less than $100 and have devoted half their DVD shelf space to blu-ray discs. Given the amount of marketing which states why blu-ray is better than DVD, I think most viewers who are concerned about the picture quality will soon have a blu-ray player. Since blu-ray burners cost $100 and writable 25GB discs are less than $1.50 each, I would encourage blu-ray + DVD packaging for any project where the quality of the source video is good enough.

The problem with dual layer DVD+R's is that people put them in very old DVD players and then complain that the discs are defective.

I'm workin' away on this project and am now wanting to add credits at the very end of the video. I've done some research on the credit roll generated media and it seems like that's probably not the best approach for what I want to do. The attached Word doc shows all the information I want to use but it's not necessarily formatted to how I want it to look. You can see that there is a lot of info there. I basically want to list each performance title and then the names of the performers.

Any suggestions on the best approach to doing this? I have some ideas using multiple "generated texts" but I'm not sure if that's the best approach so I am looking for some input here.

You could use the standard text generator and scroll it using the positioning tab.

You could create an image with all the text information (a TALL image) and then scroll that.

There's definitely multiple options available to you.

To expand on Edward's suggestion, here's a copy of a post I did recently on the Sony Vegas forum about the same thing.

Say you want to do a credit roll that runs the equivalent of 10 pages of text.
Open a new (single) text event, enter all your text and don't worry about the text going off the bottom of the screen.
Change the text attributes as desired (character by character if you want which the credit roll won't allow).
Figure out how long you want the roll to be and set the length of the text event accordingly.
Switch to the placement tab.
Click in the text box and drag the text down until it just disappears off the bottom of the screen.
Reset the X value to '0' as odds are that it changed a bit.
Go to the end of the timeline and add another keyframe.
Put a - (minus) sign in front of the Y value.
Confirm that the text has just disappeared off the top of the screen.
Adjust if needed.
That should be it.
Exit and test.

Since you've got the Word document a good and quick way to do it is to use Ed and Mike method of scrolling tall image. This method sounds a little round about but it works to preserve the exact look I want for the credit scroll. It also allows me to use text formatting and layouts that I would not otherwise we able to:

1. Once you have your Word file with the text the way you want it to appear print a high quality pdf.
2. Open the pdf in Adobe Photoshop
3. Save as a Photoshop file.

You can use the Photoshop file on a Sony Vegas Timeline and it give the cleanest looking text other than using the text generator in Vegas. I can also get a good smooth scroll using this method and it allows me to use the very nice text FX's available in Word and Photoshop.

I'm sure there are a hundred ways to do this but that's a method that works for me and allows me to get as creative or simple as I want.

-Garrett

The next hurdle is authoring. I want to create my menus in Photoshop, import to DVD Architect, and use buttons with no text over my menu selections. I'm having a hard time figuring out what size to make the Photoshop file and where the "safe zones" might be. Any suggestions?

I'm still working in Photoshop CS3 but CS5 should be the same. Open Photoshop got to

File->New->

Under Preset select Film & Video, choose Size to be HDTV 1080p/29.97

The image will be 1920x1080 at 72 pixels/inch. The attached picture is the screen showing the settings.

The canvas will show 10% safe areas.

-Garrett

Should I still be using the 1920x1080 setting even if my project is at 720x480 in DVD Architect?

I am trying to convert disc 1 of my project to DVD (MPEG) format using TMPGEnc with the settings shown in the following link... DVD-HQ : Configuring TMPGEnc for high-quality DVD-compliant MPEG-2 (http://dvd-hq.info/dvd_compression.php). My source is a Cineform AVI file (YUV 4:2:2 High) which I rendered out of Vegas.

TMPGEnc acts like is encoding and takes about 5 hours to process the 120 Gb file (141 minutes of video) but when done, I get an M2V output file of only 175 Mb which won't play. I tried changing the field order on the Advanced tab from Bottom to Top and then I got 2.2 Gb file that still won't play. I'm expecting an output file that is about 4.1 Gb.

Any ideas what might be going on here?

TMPGenc is straight forward not sure what you are doing. Start new project>Source> Input file>Format> select DVD standardMPEG file preset( select NTSC, prioritize: quality, Aspect ratio: 16x9,rate control VBR, audio: Dolby Digital)> Select> adjust ", set bit rate,( you will see how the bit rate effects the disc fill on the bottom scale)( VBR is 2 pass and the time you stated is about correct for 2 hour file I normally set the 8000kb/s limit too, I normally press the arrows on the average bit rate box until the disc is at about 4G fill on the scale )>Press OK . On this page I set DC precision to 10bit and motion search to highest. Select ES seperate video and audio> encode.Select where the file is to go.> Start.

TMPGenc will set field order correctly for NTSC so do not touch. I normally choose separate video and audio files as most authoring programs prefer this form. 2 Hour program should have an average bit rate around 4000.

These instruction are for TMPGenc 4Xpress but they are much the same for T5 other than the motion search is now under the advanced settings or can be set as computer performance "slow".

Ron Evans

I think I've determined that TMPGenc doesn't read my Cineform files correctly because I am not seeing anything but black screen in the preview window. It doesn't give any errors and appears to be encoding, but it's not reading the file correctly. I can open and play the Cineform files with Windows Media Play, but VLC media player says No Suitable Decoder Module.

When you open the file in TMPGenc does it recognize it correctly? If you press Cut-edit can you scroll through the video? If you can do this then TMPGenc is recognizing the file and will be able to decode it. YOu will not see anything in the preview window when it is encoding unless you have specified ShFT+Ctrl+P when you are on the final window and start encoding. Its the button on the right.

Ron Evans

TMPGenc allows me to to load my file as the video source just fine (no errors) but when I choose preview it shows just a black screen with no video. It shows the correct number of frames, length, etc, but just a black screen. Screen shots are attached. I'm stumped. I was really hoping to use TMPGenc for encoding before authoring the DVDs. For some reason TMPGenc is seeing the Cineform files properly. I can load other AVI files into TMPGenc with no problem and be able to preview them, but not these Cineform files.

On your TMPGenc T5 preferences , click on AVI and it will list all the codecs. Is Cineform there? My T5 shows Cineform HD Codec v 5.1.4 ( CFHD) . Do you see the video in the Cut-Edit window?

Ron Evans

I have attached the full sequence in T5. Hope this isn't too big.

Ron

Thanks Ron...

I downloaded a different version that what you are using. I have the following...

I will see if I can download a trial version of the Authoring Works and see if that works for me.

Try Masterworks 5 which is what I took the pictures from . It is very similar to version 4. Authorworks is the complete authoring program.

Ron Evans

Masterworks 5 worked GREAT! Thanks Ron for the help.

Good . When you 've played with the defaults you may want to look at the help file a little and familiarize yourself with the filter section. Of particular interest is the re size filter which is always active. If you are downsizing square pixel input you should uncheck the " keep aspect ratio" box for 16x9 as this will avoid side bars when played on a PC. Something I didn't want to confuse you with on your first try as it all still works.

Ron Evans

Ok... I'm not so pleased with my first attempt at resizing the video to DVD format. I am rendering out of Vegas using Cineform (YUV 4:2:2) and then using TMPGEnc for the resize. The picture quality is pretty poor and I'm thinking that maybe 2 hr and 20 min is too much to try to compress onto one DVD. Do you guys think it is the quantity causing the poor quality or could it be something else? I'm experimenting now with only putting 1 hr and 40 min onto a DVD to see how the quality compares. If it improves, this project is going to become a 3 disc set instead of just 2 discs.

At 2 hours 20 mins the quality will be less. What are you comparing the quality against. To the original HD it will always be poor even if you only put 1 hour on a DVD at max SD DVD quality. How does it compare to a VHS tape or a cheap commercial DVD? What are you watching it on?

Ron Evans

Not really comparing the quality to anything specific. Watching on a Vizio 32" plasma from a "cheap" DVD player doesn't look too bad from about 10 feet away, but up close the faces of the dancers are pretty fuzzy. I made another DVD with 1hr 40min on it, but haven't got a chance to review it yet to compare to the previous.

Unless you playback from a Bluray/upscaling player the resolution could be less than 1/4 of the original so up close will be fuzzy as you are depending on the TV for the scaling which will likely not change the resolution just scale to the pixel dimension. ie 720x480 of the SD to likely 1280x720 for you 32" plasma. A cheap commercial DVD might just look the same. Simplistically where you had 4 distinct pixels in your original as square box you now have 4 pixels all the same for the SD image displayed with simple scaling. It can of course look even worse. This is the problem of watching any SD image on a HD TV. Poor encoding makes the issue even more visible. The farther away you view the screen the better it looks as unless your playback system upscales your watching a SD image.

Upscaling players do make a big difference. On my 240hz Sony LCD playback from a Sony Bluray player the SD DVD's look good from 12'. Not as good as the Bluray but to most people are close enough. Playback to my 26" Viewsonic LCD doesn't look so good at all !!!

Ron Evans

The 1hr 40min DVD doesn't seem to have any better quality than the 2hr 20min DVD when watched on my plasma TV. I am going to try playing back with other DVD players and other TVs to see the differences.

I think I got used to seeing so much of the footage in HD during editing that I am a little disappointed when seeing it in the SD format. I just ordered a Blu-Ray burner and I am considering offering the customers a Blu-Ray version. As of right now I have about 60 orders for the 2-disc DVD set and don't expect to get any more because everything was advanced sales. I think that upon delivery I will include a note in the DVD packaging that a blu ray version could also be available for about $10 each. I've already covered most of my costs with the DVD sales so I just need to try to recover the costs of the BR discs and part of the burner. I'm not sure how many peole would even consider the BR option as I myself do not even have a BR player.

My question now becomes if I do decide to offer a blu ray version, how does my work flow change from what I doing for the DVD version? Will I still need 2 BR discs as I did with he DVD? The DVD disc1 is 2hr 20min and disc2 is 2hr 7min. How will the quality of the blu ray discs compare to my original AVCHD footage? Is this even a good idea or should I jsut deliver the DVDs as is?

It isn't so much the cost of Bluray discs which have come down in price its the time it takes to burn them. For SD 8 times is a reasonable copy speed but for Bluray its more like 2 times. So with a verify that is going to be almost an hour for each disc. I think you need to charge a bit more than $10 !!!!!! Bulk reproduction in our area is $20 with a minimum I think of 20 discs. Burn time will be proportional if you use a 50G disc but you have a more expensive coaster if it doesn't work!!!

For 2 hours and 40 mins then AVC encode will give you the same quality as your original 17Mbps AVCHD. However it may take your computer a day to encode from the Vegas timeline. !!!! MPEG2 VBR will be quicker with AVE bit rate at about 22000, MAX 28000 and you will not notice much difference from the original and will encode in about 2 times realtime, so about 5 hours. You will be able to replace the media in DVD Architect and change project settings to Bluray and all your authoring will stay the same.

Ron Evans

I just finished watching my 2hr 20min DVD on my 32" plasma with an upconverting DVD player and it looks SO MUCH BETTER than when played with the "cheap" DVD player I was using prior. I can't believe the difference - it actually looks REALLY GOOD! I also watched the last 5 years worth of DVDs from this same recital and my picture quality is better than all of them so I am feeling more confident going with what I have on the 2 disks.

As far as Blu Ray, can I use the intermediate Cineform AVI files in DVD Architect to create the Blu Ray disks or should I re-render out of Vegas as AVCHD or MPEG2? I already have these files rendered out of Vegas to do the resizing in TMPGEnc. Does DVD Architect do a good job of encoding for Blu Ray or should I work with TMPGEnc for the Blu Ray also?

I would render from Vegas with your original files to the DVD Architect Bluray preset for MPEG2. You could also use the Cineform files in TMPGenc to the Bluray preset as that too is DVD Architect compliant and that way you can see what data rate you should use to get the level you want from the scale. Once you know the data rate you can encode from either TMPGenc with the Cineform files or from Vegas to the Bluray preset.

Ron Evans

To fit 4.5 hours of video on a 25GB blu-ray disk the bitrate should be about 12mbps. At this bitrate it is better to use H264 rather than mpeg2 encoding. Since DVD Architect doesn't ingest all blu-ray complaint H264 video streams, I would recommend using the encoders provided with Vegas.

Thanks Eric for the advice. I wasn't sure if I should try to fit the whole show onto one Blu-ray or keep with two Blu-ray discs as I am doing with the DVD set.

I'll consider the Blu-ray more after I finish the DVD package. I just found mistakes in the titling on both DVDs so I am in the process of re-rendering both out of Vegas and then will need to re-encode too with TMPGEnc before I can get to my authoring in DVD Architect. Then I'll have about 70 of each disc to burn, label, and package.

I'm going to put a note in the DVD package offering a Blu-ray copy for an additional charge. Once the DVDs are delivered, I'll start working on a Blu-ray version. Even if no-one requests it, I still want to try one for my own experience. It seems like most of the work for Blu-ray will already be done from the DVD project, but will have to be re-encoded and possibly re-authored if it's all on one disc.

Dear Brad,

That sounds like a good plan.

Do you think the blu-ray disk offer should have an expiration date?

All the best, Eric

Don't put labels on DVD as this is a real opportunity for playback problems either immediately or after some time for the balance etc to shift. Use printable media and print on an Epson printer ( for example ) will give much better quality results.

Ron Evans

For 140 DVDs you might consider sending the job to a duplicating house. For a double DVD package the price should be less than 4$ per unit.

I've already found somewhere online that will duplicate at a price of $1.09 each (disc) per qty of 100 (plus shipping) but I'm already out of $$ so I am going to attempt to do it myself. I started this project with nothing and have since bought 2 cameras, 2 tripods, storage media, PC upgrades, software, etc. This has definately been a learning experience and if I ever do it again, I will definately charge more for the DVDs. Because of my lack of confidence in what I may be able to produce, I let these DVDs go for a pretty low cost.

I know there are arguments for and against "sticking" labels on DVDs, but I personnally have never had a problem with a CD or DVD that has had a label applied to it. It's a risk I am willing to take. Many of the DVDs from the last several years of this same recital have stick-on labels on them too and my goal from the beginning of this project (as an amateur with NO experience) was to do at least as good as past DVDs at a lower cost. I have already purchased the blank media, labels, and cases for really good deals from online sources and am prepared to have a go at it!

Since I now have a Blu-ray burner in addition to my DVD burner, I am hoping to be able to burn 2 discs simultaneously, but I haven't researched yet to see how feasible that is. My thoughts are that I can have the source files for disc1 on one hard drive and the source files for disc2 on another hard drive and burn both discs simultaneously on separate burners. Anyone have any experience with this?

I would strongly recommend a DVD Sharpie

Sharpie | Sharpie CD/DVD Permanent Marker (http://www.sharpie.com/enUS/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=SharpieCD/DVDPermanentMarker%28Sharpie%20Catalog%29)

instead of the sticky labels. Any label can warp the disk and cheap labels are much more likely to do this than expensive ones. Then concentrate on artwork for the dvd box.

Most burning software like Nero will burn multiple discs at the same time from the files on the PC. It is however best to have two of the same burner for max performance. Don't do anything else on the PC while the discs are burning and make sure verify is turned on to ensure discs are verified after burn.
I would still recommend against using labels. At best they have to be put on with a jig to ensure they are in the absolute center of the disc or they will not play on most players. For that number of discs a local reproduction house will make and print on them a lot quicker than you could do them and at higher quality.

Ron Evans

If it takes 20 minutes to write a DVD, apply the sticky label and verify it, then it will take 46 hours to write 140 of them. At minimum wage this is 340 dollars of work. Since duplication costs a dollar a disk, you could make an extra 200 dollars by sending the disks to a duplication house.

I apologize for not posting back in this thread to let you all know the outcome of the recital video. I had posted an upate in my other thread in the "Wedding / Event Videography Techniques" section but failed to realize that not evryone here had subscribed to that thread (thanks Eric for the reminder). Here's the post from the other thread....

"I just wanted to check back in here to thank my team (all of you) for the support and advice that you provided for this recital video production. If I hadn't come to this forum seeking advice, I would have failed miserably as I wouldn't have had adequate equipment from the start.

My DVD set is complete - captured, edited, resized, authored, packaged, and ready for delivery! I sold a total of 65 copies. In the beginning of this thread I mentioned that (as an amateur with NO experience) I wanted to be able to produce a video that was at least as good as those of prior years' recitals. After finishing my product and reviewing it along side the last 5 years of DVDs, I feel very confident that I have met (and exceded) my goal! You all helped make it happen!

I now have a wedding that I am doing this Friday! Some friends are having a simple outdoor wedding ceremony and reception and weren't planning to hire a videographer, so I volunteered to do a video for them. I had so much fun with the recital video, I just couldn't wait for another project!

Thanks again for all the support and confidence that you have given me! I'll look forward to more on future projects!"

Since that post on June 29th, I have received good feedback from a few customers, so I am pretty pleased with the outcome! Thanks to everyone who helped out in this Vegas thread too!