I'm rendering 720 60p video to AVC codec, but DVDA wants to recompress it, even though I have matched the project settings,

This is about to be my first attempt at BR, and I wondered is there any reason to render to mainconcept m2t? I've tried that as well but DVDA wants to recompress that as well (and I did change settings in DVDA of course)

Any thoughts?

Come on, someone please. I have rendered this video at least 20 times in the last hour and reset DVDA and I'm getting same thing, DVDA wants to recompress. I've use AVC, mainconcept m2t, used the 720p template, and it all comes to the same end. I match DVDA by setting avc and the correct frame size, frame rate, everything, and use templates also. This is starting to get very old.

hi jeff,

can't help directly - skipped blu ray completely and went directly to media players, as have all my clients (thankfully).

the following thread 'might' help you out....

Sony Creative Software - Forums - Vegas Pro - Video Messages (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=746293)

good luck

Leslie, very interesting thread, and it doesn't help me now, but the information about avc vs mpeg was very good to know!

After 9 hours of messing with this and rendering dozens of times to every imaginable configuration, I settled on avc and let DVDA render a second time, which took 4x longer than the Vegas render.

This is absolutely the stupidest crap I can imagine. I have found other threads but there is no answer to this stupidity. Mpeg 2 should, ideally work fine, but doesn't, and neither does avc.

My final disc looks fine, but this was a short 3 minute video project. I will need to burn 90 minute projects soon and I simply cannot tie up my computer for 12-14 hours while DVDA re-renders my work.

I am looking at other authoring software but so I haven't found much.

Jeff unless the time is over 2 1/2 hours I use MPEG2. I export from the Vegas timeline using Main Concepts MPEG with Bluray preset ( in my case its always 1920x1080i) Source is usually Canopus HQ from my Edius edit and encode is about real time. I set my chapter points in Vegas and all is then input to DVDA with no re rendering that I have experienced. For this length data rate is about 18000 VBR with max set at 32000 if using WAV audio or 18500 for AC3. DVD will show a RED total at about 23G for the disc. If time is longer I will use TMPGenc with Spurs plugin and encode to AVC. Souce again is Canopus HQ from Edius and I have the Firecoder Blu Canopus card for the Spurs engine. Encode time is again about realtime. File designation needs to be changed to avc for DVD to recognise but will then use without re-encoding.

Anything less than 2 hours and would use MPEG2.

Ron Evans

Ron, thanks for your post.

I clearly dont have a grasp of frame rates and what they mean. Allow me to explain.

Instead of rendering to 720 60p as I have been doing, I just now rendered video to mpeg 2 at 720 30p.

Then in DVDA I selected 720 59.940p and it doesn't want to re-render.

Can someone explain to me why this would be so? I didn't think 30p was supported for bluray, at least it's not listed in the specs on wikepedia. Why would DVDA not need to recompres 30p footage when the settings I've chosen in DVDA are 59fps?

Jeff,

30p is not a frame rate in the BR spec. Only 60i or 24p. If you take your 30p footage and render to 729 - 60i it will play as the exact same as 30p. Basically a PsF situation. Not sure why they didn't include 30p in the BR spec but it's not.

If you feed DVDA a 60i it shouldn't rerender the file.

-Garrett

Thanks Garrett. But 720 60p IS a bluray spec, isn't it?

What is nuts is I just burned a DVD using the prior settings, and I went to burn another after creating a new DVDA project, and now it wants to recompress again.

I'll try your suggestion.

There is a 720 60p preset in DVDA, but not a 720 60i preset.

Jeff could you detail exactly what you are doing. I am assuming that your source is a 1280x720 60P HD source. You edit on the same 1280x720P60 timeline in Vegas then render to a Bluray preset 1280x720P60 ( last on the list in Vegas encode box). Project in DVD is the same spec. 1280x720 progressive.

Ron

Your correct Jeff, 60p is supported up to 720. sorry, I was looking at your 30p. Have you tried using Sony's AVC coded options in Vegas? I've never had much luck with the MC ones going to BR. What bitrate are you rendering at? under 40Mbps. Also you might try a small sample creating an mpg2 file and seeing if DVDA still rerenders. I'm not sure if there is a switch in DVDA that forces rerenders.

-Garrett

Yes, Ron, you have it. I have 720 60p footage on timeline (with some photos mixed in) and project properties are set to match the video, I don't even set the project properties manually, I let Vegas see the footage and choose the correct properties, and the frame rate is seen as 59.940.

However there is no 720 60p template in Vegas, so I choose the 720 30p template and change the frame rate to 59.940, which is as listed in my project properties, and set it to that in DVDA, 1280x720 of course.

I have also chosen (just now) for the first time a few minutes ago, 60 fps in Vegas and rendered to that, but it makes no difference.

I have included screen shots. It you need more information or if Ihaven't told you enough, please tell me.

the disc I just made where it didn't recompress doesn't play, so something was wrong there anyway.

Garrett, yes I've tried the avc route, that is what I was using initially, and same thing, which is what caused me to try mpeg2. My bitrate is around 18mbps.

Jeff,

First, I was under the impression bluray is always interlaced, so no matter what you are in, if it is progressive it will surely rerender it.

I am not sure I understand what you are actually wanting to do here.

Dale, Mpeg 2 720 60p is listed as a compliant format for bluray in Vegas help, and is listed in the Wikepedia entry for Blu-ray as supported.

For supported media, go here: Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc) and scroll down to Media Format and you can see the formats supported. Interlaced and progressive are both supported.

What I am trying to do, Dale, is render my media (using Vegas) for DVDA so that it is compliant and does not need to be re-compressed by DVDA.

Re-compression should be unnecessary, and worse it takes a huge amount of time, and while the quality hit may not be that bad, I'm shooting in 720 60p, and it should be a breeze to render and burn, but instead DVDA wants to recompress my footage a second time before burning the disc, and that is no good. Much too time consuming.

I am currently rendering a 2.5 minute video project for this purpose, so render time is short in Vegas, but in DVDA it takes 15 minutes or so when it recompresses.

When I start turning out Blu-ray weddings here in a week or so, what will I do then? If I let DVDA recompress my files a 90 minute video will take at least 10 hours to recompress, if my estimation is right.

Ron, I am rendering the video separately. for test purposes I'm not even using audio, just to eliminate any possible extraneous issue.

I just tried avc codec again same thing. I've been at this since 3:45 yesterday, with 4 hours break for sleep.

I have now lost a night's sleep, and one and a half day's work, and am still no closer to a solution. I could likely spend the rest of the day, but this is going nowhere.

I would just quit, but I HAVE to figure this out. I have weekly weddings, sometimes two a week, and I am going to be burning bluray discs to try and upsell clients.

I don't see living my life around the time it takes DVDA to recompress my videos.

I would give up the whole idea of blu-ray, but it is part of my current business plan. media players are not big here in Cincinnati, but bluray is relatively popular.

Hi Jeff,
It seems you are not alone with this problem, you could maybe follow the last post on this
forum thread.
720p & Bluray burning? (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140226.0)

Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm PAL and interlaced.

Regards
RichardG

Jeff,
Can't you render out of vegas at 1080p mpeg2, (upscale).
and then see what dvda makes of that.

Just a desperate thought, not sure if it will affect your quality or not.

Regards
RichardG

I normally shoot 1920x1080 so the only 1280x720P60 stuff I have is from my ContourHD headcam and this is mov. I just did a short 6:30min clip in Vegas 10.0D build 669. I have a Bluray 1280x720P60 preset for export which I used. It is at the bottom of the list of presets for MainConcept MPEG. This took about 8 mins to render. Took into DVD Architect 5.2 which recognized it as a 1280x720P60 file. However it still wanted to render this file !!!! This took 12min to render for Bluray. When I have time i will try and find out why. See if it is a mismatch between bit rates etc. I always have the same problem with AC3 files from TMPGenc.

Ron Evans

Richard, that was an excellent thread to point me to, and most kind of you to find it and send me there. At the end the last post, guiy claimed he found a way. Now why he didn't post the solution is beyond me, but I messaged him and hopefully he will share his answer.

Thanks again.

Ron, I have to quit this for now, but I'll try some more things later. Deeply appreciate your efforts, muchas gracias.

I found the problem. The preset for Bluray 1280x720 does not set the output to be progressive !!!! The bit rate is also too high for a burned disc.The preset default has max at 30000, average at 25000 and min 20000. I think DVDA requires max bit rate to be below 28000 for a burned disc.

I have now re done the export modifying the preset to be progressive and setting max bit rate to 25mbps and average 18Mbps. Render from Vegas is now realtime. In DVD Architect file is accepted as before, still have to confirm settings but now makes disc in 1:16 mins.

So for a 6:59 min file Vegas 10.0 d Build 669 render was 7:05, and DVDA made disc in 1:16min

You may want to play around to get bit rates and the quality you need.

Ron Evans

Ron, I am on the way to the airport, but am excited to try your settings, though I feel certain I was outputting progressive, so I'm a bit worried about that, and my bitrate was quite low, but I'll try it as soon as I return!

Ron, no joy in Cincinnati Our presets seem different. Mine 720 30p is progressive, but there is no 60p, only 30p, so I change the frame rate. Bit rate is by default around 18000, so that should be good.

Do you have a 720 60p preset?

I don't have a Blu-ray preset for 720, only a HD preset.

wait, you are talking about the preset in DVDA, not Vegas, aren't you? I've checked that and double checked it...and my bit rate is at 18000, same as my video, and I'm sure mine is progressive, but I'll try it again.

Same thing, my settings in DVDA are perfect, or at the least I'm sure they match my rendered footage:

Here is a screen shot of the clip properties

I have Vegas on two machines and on one of them it has the preset and on the other it doesn't !!! Not sure how that happened unless I made the preset myself. So I just created the preset on the other machine too. Took the 1920x1080 60i preset and changed it to 1280x720 59.94fps, with the changes to bit rate etc and called 1280x720P60 and saved. It all works

Ron Evans

I see, I'll try changing my 1080i and see what happens, thanks Ron.

Tried it, won't render, I get an error message. I just undid my overclocking to make sure that wasn't the issue, is isn't. Whoopee, now I can go redo that later, as my computer feels like it's at half speed now.

I feel like I'm at the end of ideas, not sure what else to do. Other 1080 setttings won't render when changed to 720p, I get an error that the media could not be created.

If anyone has anything, I'm all ears.

When you create the preset make sure that as well as setting 1280x720 59.94 you also make sure that the field order is also set to progressive and check all these before you render. I have found that although the project looks to be progressive 59.94 that is not enough without checking that the field order everywhere also says progressive. If not then DVDA will want to re-render.

Ron Evans

I'll double check that Ron.

Ron, I've tried what you've recommended, and I've also gotten similar tips from a fellow in another forum, and all to no avail.

I've used two versions of Vegas, and two versions of DVDA as well.

I actually have to give up, I'm done for now. I've spent two days on this, and it's not working out. I have a shoot out of town tomorrow, and I may reinstall windows, etc after cleaning off my hard drive, which I've not done in two years.

I just rendered yet another version and will try it one last time here in a minute, and try this thing again in a day or two.

I started from a Bluray 1920x1080 preset then changed parameters and saved a new preset as pictured below. The DVDA settings are also shown. Critical are the field order as well as frame rate and the bit rate MUST be below 28000. Hope you get it working you can change the parameters to match as this is just the base I used for the test. Setting ave will automatically set the min which could of course be less than the average !!!!

Ron

Ron, just returned from shoot to find your post. This evening I will duplicate your settings.

On the DVDA end, I had that for sure. I just discovered last night that in Vegas template the Level needs to be "High", not the default High 1440, which I did try, but that setting alone didn't alleviate problem.

Really appreciate the time you've taken, and for the screenshots especially.

I'll let you know what happens!

Ron, just tried your setttings, and noticed your aspect ratio is set at 16:9 instead of square pixels...and wait....it works! I was using square pixel setting.

It is NOT wanting to recompress! Halleleujia!

Hi Jeff,
hehe! A kind of an anti-climax after all that heartache.

Pleased you got it sorted.

Regards
Richard

Ron, you deserve an award for Samaritan of the year, or something. You stuck with this from beginning to end, alone, and for that I'm grateful. I am putting you in for a raise effective immediately. It should show up in your next check.

This was the last major hurdle (I hope) in the HD process, and it's a pretty good feeling.

Thanks Richard, yes it's a bit weird after days of this playing around.

Ron, I can't beleive the PAR was the issue. 720p is made up of square pixels (right?), so I wondier why this adjustment is necessary. Not that I'm complaining.

I went straight away to read up on pixels aspect ratio, etc, and it left me more confused than ever.

The quality of the disc is really nice. I put this on a regular DVD and it is stunning.

Ron, I feel like I should be yelling at Sony, or someone, but the energy I expended from this struggle has left me exhausted.

Yes it's worth it when it all works but can be very frustrating when it doesn't. Just one little setting can throw everything off.
Glad you are now happy.

Ron Evans

Just Hi-Jacking the thread Jeff, sorry!
Wonder if Leslie (if your're still about) could enlighten me/us as to which media player he uses.
Sounds an interesting concept.
Might have to start a new thread on this. :-)

Regards
Richard

The WD media player is very popular. You should start a thread, would be interesting, I don't know of any other media player, but of course there are probably many out there.

VLC is a popular open source cross-platform multimedia player.
VideoLAN - Official page for VLC media player, the Open Source video framework! (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/)

but more importantly to me, THX to Jeff/Ron/etc...

i had problems a while back trying to create a 1280x720 23.976 BD that didn't recompress in DVD-A or just BSOD... finally gave up, figured i'd wait til next version; then read this topic, so went back, tried again.

built a menu-driven BD with 30+ video's and playlist, transcoded/burned/tested in two hours. SWEET

thanks again, it's good to have that off the things-to-do list

Jeff,

I spent some time last night trying to accomplish what you were trying to do and did accomp;ish much. Before I sat down today I checked this thread out and how nice to see that it has been worked out!!

I was trying to build a preset from scratch and was not successful, did not occur to me to start with the already given preset and just change it about!!

Yes, ron derserves the good guy of the year award!!

I am going to go give his fix a try right now.


I use VLC media player a lot.

Dale, I might be mistaken, but I suspect Richard was asking about hardware for playing HD content.

On the original thing, I find it unfathomable that Vegas doesn't have a 720 60p preset effective for rendering DVDA compliant footage.

Jeff,

I misunderstood the player thing obviously.

I just built the 720 preset, rendered a short piece and it works fine!!

How hard would that have been to put in place, especially sence it is compliant!!! AND, why does square pixel not work??? That borders on retarded.

Sometimes sony really ticks me off!!! Like my edius avi wont play in 10 but will in 8.

However I am so fond of the work flow I can't bring myself to let go of it and always find myself using Vegas.

Curiously, are you shooting in native 60P? which camera are you using for that??

I'm using the GH2, and three GH1s for weddings, and I'm shooting in 720 60p. If the cameras had 1080 60p, I would use it, but they don't.

720p is ideal for me anyway. It converts from the Vegas timeline perfectly for SD, and I can simply render which ever format I want, 16:9 widescreen or HD for Blu-ray.

If I want to convert the footage in HD link to SD for a client, I use the 1280x720p avi preset, and it converts quickly because there is no resizing involved. A whole wedding converts in less than an hour or two.

The raw footage works well on the timeline, and it's a bit tough with four cameras, but I'm going back to a 4 disc Raid 0 setup this weekend to deal with that.

Dale , Edius HQ will work fine in Vegas 10, 32 bit if you are using Edius 5.5 or if you are using Edius V6 then HQ should /will work in Vegas 10, 32 or 64 bit version. I do all my video editing in Edius and just use Vegas for audio editing and preparing for Bluray.

Ron Evans