I am still looking around for what initial lenses to pair up with the F3. I came across the RED PRO 18-85mm T2.9 battle tested for $6000. This seems like quite a deal.

My question is; who has any experience with this lens and would you all recommend it as an all around first lens (quality, sharpness, breathing, etc), given that any other lenses needed can be rented and such.

Thanks in advance.

As I ponder whether I can - or should- buy the F3, the Red Pro BT zoom is also a consideration.

I cannot speak from shooting with the lens. What I think is worth considering is that it is a very heavy lens-- about 10 pounds-- and would require support. Optitek makes support ring for it for $345 and you will also need a heavy-duty bridge plate for your rails, which could run $500. The Duclos support is $325 and they sell a heavy duty bridge for $525. I do not know whether their $275 bridge plate would support the lens. So that $6K lens is now closer to $7K. That's still a considerable savings over a new lens.

You certainly can't beat the value in a PL-mount zoom lens.

Ned Soltz

As I ponder whether I can - or should- buy the F3, the Red Pro BT zoom is also a consideration.

I cannot speak from shooting with the lens. What I think is worth considering is that it is a very heavy lens-- about 10 pounds-- and would require support.


It's a lens for studio days, or when you have an AC. I wouldn't recommend this lens if you are one-man-banding it.

You'd need:

-15mm studio or 19mm Arri style baseplate ($600-$800)
-a way to spacer that above baseplate down, which would likely be a 15mm lightweight baseplate ($300-$500)
-12" Arri dovetail to put that Arri baseplate on. ($500)

-bridge support to go on rods ($450)
-custom support that goes from above bridge support to the lens (the Duclos piece mentioned by Ned above)

and then a head and sticks heavy enough for your now 25lb camera. Wouldn't recommend anything less than a Sachtler Video 18 or equivalent.

Other than the commitment to working studio style (or having ACs), it's a great lens for the price.

I pondered it for a while but abandoned the idea for the reasons Nate has issued. The lens weighs 10 pounds. Still a fantastic deal/option given the right circumstances.

Angenieux is releasing a 4lb full range fast zoom but it is going to cost 50 grand. They had a prototype of it at NAB. Spectacular.

If it's the one I've seen, it's a limited range 45 to 120 T2.8, which would work in well with their Optimo 16-42. They also have a 30-80 zoom

Actually the 45-120 is in the original Optimo family (15-40 and 28-76) compatible with 35mm film and digital cameras, while the two you listed are in the Optimo DP (formerly Rouge) series of less expensive lenses made solely for digital cameras. I considered investing in the original short and medium zooms four years ago but while I deliberated, the dollar lost enough ground that the lenses shot up 25% in price and I gave up on them. If I owned them now and they were paid off...well, what can you do.

Love those baby Optimos.

They must be doing a new version of the lens,

http://www.angenieux.com/file/PRESS_RELEASES/angenieux_sony_camera_45_120mm_lens_test_release_final.pdf

Approx 3 to 1 zoom range at f2.8 seems to be a sweet spot before the glassware starts getting large and heavy.

I have been tempted by that same lens but sadly it is a huge beast to deal with and they are all right, you're going to be spending around 800+ dollars just to be able to mount that thing properly.

I want the lens pretty bad, specially at that price, but I dont believe its a good lens to start with, specially if you cant do a simple hand held shot (which would be hell with that lens).

The concept of an "affordable" Super35 sensor camera came about so quickly that it's created quite a pricing gap between body and lenses. I imagine there are more than a few F3 early adopters who are sitting around scratching their heads, wondering what they are going to do about zoom lenses. I'm sure we are going to see a slew of cut-price entries emerging from around the globe, and it will be interesting to see how the folks who carry their performance expectations of still camera lenses learn to compromise at the price points they desire.

I love my compact RED 18-50 and its perfect for run and gun situations when you really need a zoom, but for me Primes are much more of a stable investment anyway. I hope in the next few years more lenses will be made. I honestly see a horrible void in the lens department all over the world. There are really expenses glass and then cheap crap.. There really isnt a middle ground for lenses for the "new wave" of s35mm cameras. The prices are still up there for zooms or prime sets. I'm hope some new lens companies emerge or old lens companies figure out just what Sony did when they made the F3... If theres a spot in the market thats bare and empty, if you build it they will buy.

A full set of 5 prime PL lenses 18,25,35,50,85 with tstop of 2.1 with made for the budget friendly with a price range of $8,000 for the set would be the ultimate midway point. If a lens company figured that out and actually made them they would be backordered for months with everyone trying to buy them (thats a good thing).

I know zeiss wont do it, because they are protecting their higher end, but a new company or possibly photo Still lens company like Canon or Nikon making PL mount rehoused versions of their already amazing glass with those much lower price ranges would KILL the market. It would be the best of both worlds for middle of the road glass... which right now there really isnt. The cheapest you'll find a new set of primes is around 17,000 and up for a set of 5.

Well, if you buy the F3 with Sony PL lenses, you get 3 PLs for 6K, not too far off the 8K for 5 lenses you are thinking off. Although, there is certainly a void in affordable PL lenses, there is plenty of offerings of high quality glass in the non-PL world. For people who do not need the PL form factor, I challenge anyone to point out differences in picture quality between Zeiss CP.2 or ZF.2 series and most PL lenses. Following that blunt statement, I am ducking down for flying bullets...

Thierry.

It's not so much the optical quality as the mechanics (for the larger focus scale) and how much breathing you get when pulling focus.

Given Alan Roberts' comments on the subject during his test I suspect the the F3 wouldn't really get everything the really high end cine lenses have to give anyway, A sort of law of diminishing returns.

I've chosen for now to go the SLR lens route. No doubt there are compromises BUT what I'm thinking is I have those cost effective lenses to use for projects where the budget doesn't support having $20k+ in glass on set. If I get a job of that caliber I have a local source to rent good cinema lenses from.

Its the best of both worlds in my opinion.

Image wise I am finding my Canon FD 85mm f/1.2L to be absolutely gorgeous on the F3. The color and contrast is excellent and if you need to go razor thin DOF its just a twist of the iris away.

Wow. Thank you all for your input. It seems as if the lens will be a bit much seeing as I tend to be a one or two man crew. Perhaps the 17-50mm which is still $6000 could suit my needs better and I could add in an 85mm (CP.2) for the longer lengths. Any recommendations?

Also, I am considering the Zeiss ZF lenses along with the MTF nikon mount. 25,35,50,85 for around $5000 isn't a bad start. I hear these lenses focus in the opposite direction (atleast the 100mm makro and 25mm from the pictures ive seen on zeiss) Can anyone confirm?

I would never go the stills rout for many issues:

Mechanics, if you really want to work on actual productions, you will need to pull focus and have accurate and repeatable focus with a long throw.

Breathing, even if the CP.2's are the same exact optics as the ZF lenses, they arent the same quality when it comes to breathing, the CP's have been rehoused to eliminated the breathing.

Longevity, if you want to make an investment that will still be worth the price you paid for it, PL lenses will always retain their value. Not to mention they can work on any camera you might grow into later down the road. You may pay 5k for a bunch of nikon mount lenses, but they will only work on lower end cameras. There is no way to use those on higher end cameras (except RED) and then again if you ever wanna sell them they are worth much less already.

Being taken serious, well lets face it, clients who are looking for higher end production will not want to hire out nikons, you just wont find anyone looking for that. Sure its ok to have a super telly lens like a nikon 300 or 500 with an adapter for the F3, heck even film guys like using PL mounted Nikon 300's. But for any productions down the line that are bigger you'll wish you spent that money on higher end glass that can be up to par with other professional PL glass.

You can see the difference between the mechanics of still and cine lenses here:

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/zeiss_eye_candy/)

I haven't seen breathing in my ZE's, at least that I've noticed. I believe they deliver the same performance as the CP2's on that level (I've shot with both).

The main difference between the Z series and the CP's is the mechanical rehousing which absolutely makes a difference if one is pulling focus by hand. However, if one uses a remote lens control system, it will remap however short the barrel throw is to the full rotation of the knob, giving all lenses exactly the same feel. The system I use goes so far as to extrapolate the markings on the lens so that I can turn the knob to 5'3" or 5'6" and both will be accurate. It's the same with the Z lenses, CP2's, Cookes, whatever. Now, that is a very expensive system and I happen to own it from my Steadicam days, but this concept is contained within some of the lower cost systems in development (Redrock) so when and if those emerge, it will be available to a much wider range of users

As far as value is concerned and the application of still lenses to other cameras; I think it's apparent that there will be a great push to make these lenses attach physically to the large sensor cameras emerging simply because there are not inexpensive alternatives. A universal Nikon or EF to PL mount is not a particularly exotic concept.

As far as using these lenses on higher end productions--the productions themselves don't care what you use for lenses as long as they deliver the goods without issues. I have shot network television pilots, high-end commercials and major label music videos with my ZE's. Again, I am using them in conjunction with technology that significantly improves the AC's workflow and that makes a big difference. Optically however--no concerns there.

Return on investment? Remains to be seen but the still community is still much larger than the filmmaking community, and they know the value of good lenses. Return investment on inexpensive PL lenses remains to be seen. As that market expands, there will be many more options down the road and if a cheaper and better lens emerges, the early adopters may find themselves with a substantial loss in investment. Historically resale has been good, but that's because everyone wants them and there aren't enough choices. That will change and very soon.

That all said: I would rather work with a PL mount, cine-style lens (the EF mount is rather "soft" and does allow the lens to shift in the mount, which can be seen during focus racks--that can be managed via a lens brace, which I am designing). I considered both the CP2's and the ZE's and ultimately decided not to invest 3x the money into them and have not regretted that decision. I am expecting to see competitive PL primes emerge that may be faster or less expensive or both and may make a plunge then. The market is demanding it...

giuseppe that makes complete sense but Alister Chapman made a valid point some time ago that PL mount lenses are a dime a dozen and are very accessible from rental houses. If I can access these lenses for the bigger productions and simply use my ZF's for smaller productions I feel this might be the better option.

Also, will the Chorsziel DV studio rig with a reverse gear( Chrosziel AC-206-40S hdSLR Follow Focus AC-206-40S B&H Photo) make the follow focus act the same as it would with traditional cine lenses? If so, focus pulling shouldn't be very different with these Nikon lenses.

Thanks again for all the input everyone!

I should have my Chrosziel reversing gear here tomorrow. Although I didn't use the FF much before I got the F3 (I have Contax lenses which focus the "right" way), I just couldn't get my head around reverse focussing with the Nikons. I'll post how I go.

PL mount lenses are a dime a dozen and are very accessible from rental houses.

Accessible, yes. To those with money and insurance. Or long contacts in the biz to borrow.

Dime a dozen? Hahahaha. Last dozen I saw was a full set of Cooke S4s, and was worth about $250K :-/

Yes, the rental PL lenses are the up market glassware and aren't that cheap unless your production has the budget and insurance to cover the cover it. One well known rental house has a set of Arri Master Primes going at $1500 per day and the Cooke S4 at $1000 per day. Another has a set of Zeiss Super Speeds at $300 and a set (slightly smaller range) of Cookes S4 at $595. Although I imagine you can do a deal and there'll be a weekly rate.

Although I imagine you can do a deal and there'll be a weekly rate.

Week rate is typically 3 day rates, although when business is bad or they otherwise need to swing a deal, some places will do 2 day weeks.

Yes, that's the same as the UK 35mm weekly rate.

However, if one uses a remote lens control system, it will remap however short the barrel throw is to the full rotation of the knob, giving all lenses exactly the same feel. The system I use goes so far as to extrapolate the markings on the lens so that I can turn the knob to 5'3" or 5'6" and both will be accurate. It's the same with the Z lenses, CP2's, Cookes, whatever. Now, that is a very expensive system and I happen to own it from my Steadicam days, but this concept is contained within some of the lower cost systems in development (Redrock) so when and if those emerge, it will be available to a much wider range of users


Hello Charles,
I'm wondering about your opinion of the precision of the focus on the shorter focus throw lenses when using a focus remote. Because I haven't been doing much dramatic stuff lately, I don't have much experience with the most recent remote focus designs, but back when I was working on jobs where we used them, we typically would create a 'double set' of distance markings on the remote's marker ring. This was to accomodate any play between the different gears of the mechanism and any flexing within the system. Hence, for each distance setting we created two marks, one if you were moving the focus ring in one direction, the second for moving in the other direction. Thus on the remote's ring, each distance was indicated by a little bracket drawing.
Hence my accuracy question... If using a stills lens where the barrel rotation is significantly reduced compared to a cine lens, have you found the 'slop' between the gears of the focus system to be more of a problem, or have the remote systems become more intelligent (accurate) to account for the play between gears? Or does it add sufficient accuracy to mount a large gear ring on stills lens (hence have more 'gear teeth' per degree of rotation on the lens)?
Thanks,
Dave S

Hi Dave:

Sounds like you are describing the Seitz, or the WRC-4...yes, I remember the double-mark days too. And messing around with Hedens, trying to keep them from getting bounced off stiff lenses (remember slaving two of them together with a bracket and reversing motor?) Ugh.

That all ended with the Preston system with its digital motors. I'm not technical enough to go into detail into how it achieves that accuracy but I know that there is two-way communication between the motor and brain so backlash are accounted for, and the resolution is much higher. Repeatability is absolute. The short throw of still lenses is not a problem. No need for larger gears for accuracy.

It's a very different game than the analog days, for sure.

Thanks Charles,
Exactly what I was hoping to hear!
Best,
Dave S

I should have my Chrosziel reversing gear here tomorrow. Although I didn't use the FF much before I got the F3 (I have Contax lenses which focus the "right" way), I just couldn't get my head around reverse focussing with the Nikons. I'll post how I go.

Do you by any chance have an update? Thanks!

It got delayed William. Hopefully here tomorrow!

Renting is a great option because you get pretty much any lens you need whenever you need it.

My Zeiss CP1's 6 lenses goes out for $275, and my 6 lens set of Panchro's for $425. and my Cooke 18-100 T3 goes out for $225.

These arent outlandish numbers. The CP1's are a GREAT deal. the Cooke zoom is a phenominal deal. For narritive, and studio work the Zoom is a great choice if its a hand held light day.

You can see the difference between the mechanics of still and cine lenses here:

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/zeiss_eye_candy/)

I would love to see the comparison of the SAME lens both from the ZF series and the CP.2 cut in half, to see how big of a difference their layout internally are. Say the 50mm CP.2 vs the 50mm ZF nikon mount.

Do you by any chance have an update? Thanks!

Yes the Nikon reverse gear works fine, but the extra gear is very very close to some of my largers lenses like the 80-200 and 80-400. I'm going to use it because I don't want to relearn focus direction if I get some PL's down the track. If I'm using a FP, it doesn't matter, but for my own stuff, I don't want to be switching directions. I'll probably look around for a more dedicated reverses follow focus.

As I ponder whether I can - or should- buy the F3, the Red Pro BT zoom is also a consideration.

I cannot speak from shooting with the lens. What I think is worth considering is that it is a very heavy lens-- about 10 pounds-- and would require support. Optitek makes support ring for it for $345 and you will also need a heavy-duty bridge plate for your rails, which could run $500. The Duclos support is $325 and they sell a heavy duty bridge for $525. I do not know whether their $275 bridge plate would support the lens. So that $6K lens is now closer to $7K. That's still a considerable savings over a new lens.

You certainly can't beat the value in a PL-mount zoom lens.

Ned Soltz


This lens follows no industry standards however. Most follow focuses dont work with it, because the focus ring is ALLLLLLL the way at the nose, and its so wide that the basic industry standard follow focus( ARRI FF4) does not fit under it. You would have to use an Oconnor.

Its VERY quirky ergonomically, but optically quite nice.

Yes the Nikon reverse gear works fine, but the extra gear is very very close to some of my largers lenses like the 80-200 and 80-400. I'm going to use it because I don't want to relearn focus direction if I get some PL's down the track. If I'm using a FP, it doesn't matter, but for my own stuff, I don't want to be switching directions. I'll probably look around for a more dedicated reverses follow focus.

Peter, Thank you for the update. Are you using Zeiss ZF's with the FF now? If so which ones? and is it necessary to use the reverse gear with them? Just trying to clarify. Thanks again!

No I'm just using Nikons. I have the Tokina 11-16, Nikon 28mm, 50mm 1.4, 28-70mm 2.8, 105mm 2.5, 80-200mm, and 80-400mm.

Thanks!

A conversation has started on CML comparing Leica R's to Zeiss ZF's any thoughts on this?

Also, is there any adapter yet for the leica to f3 pl mount? besides the leics r ->nikon -> pl mount route.
Edit*- Does anyone know when this will come out and how much it will cost? http://www.pstechnik.de/downloads/110516_PR_IMS-F3_en.pdf

Seems like the only place to purchase Leica R's is on ebay any other spots?