I'm holding my breath and ready to receive the blows. Aside from my focusing issues please help me get better by telling me what you might do differently, and lo and behold if there's anything that is likable, let me know that too! : )

Note: everyone was about an hour late so the sun was much lower than I would have preferred, and I forgot I had an ND filter on my Glidecam. I'm ordering a loupe today, if only I can decide which one will work best for weddings...I don't want to glue anything to my cam, and I don't want to spend as much as the Zacuto runs for.

password: SR2011

This is a password protected video on Vimeo

password isn't working

Ok, took password off...don't know why it didn't work?

Did you frame the speakers that way for a reason, the framing is way off. The overexposed shots are pretty bad. The mirror shot is salvagleable I suppose, but you need to do what you can with it, it's lacking in contrast and just doesn't look too good, IMO.

It may be possible the grass shot was overexposed on purpose, but I would lose it...overall look of the indoor shots was weak.

What I'm thinking is: If you cannot see these things, you could be in trouble. If you're planning on shooting weddings for pay with two Canon 60Ds, you should definitely keep your prices very low for the next year.

OK, tell me how to frame better. I'm with you. I know this isn't a million dollar piece here. This is why I need your help. I do see these things. As do you. Keep your help flowing please.

I used a vintage lens and it gave me improper exposure readings. We ran out of time, and it can clearly be seen.

I thought you had the material to make a fun save the date video BUT I think the main problem is somewhat more technical. You already pointed it out that you had focussing issues and that I think is your priority nr one, a dslr with a fast prime wide open does not forgive, you have to get that right or it will stick out like a sore thumb. I got my zacuto look a like loupe from ebay ( a polish supplier) for about 50 dollar which attaches with a magnet and works really well. Especially in sunlight it's a must have.

There were also some outside shots where the white balance seemed totally off, did you apply a manual preset for WB? Auto-wb on dslr's is not very reliable.

Framing: Now I thought you did really well on the interviews, wel lit, nice natural color but the framing was odd, it works better if you do it like this: Shortcuts: Framing a TV interview - the mantelpiece - mark waddington blog (http://markwaddington.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/08/shortcuts-framing-a-tv-interview.html) I think there it's explained as short and simple as necessary. This mainly applies for the shots where they don't look towards the camera.

Also you need to see that your tripod is horizontal as some shots in that field it was standing quite crooked.

Sound; on my headphones I got the voices more on the left and music more on on the right, that you should avoid, to me it feels like I'm not hearing right out of my right ear when they speak, you definitely should spread out the voice and music more equally over both channels.

Like I said, I think you have the material there to make a fun save the date story but it is all the above I mentioned that is distracting to much.

Noa,

Now THAT'S something I can work with! THANK YOU! I am looking at your link next. I did color correct as it was underexposed. I will go back and readjust. I will also add right and left audio channels.

Can you provide a link to your loupe? I am researching right now which one to get. Might just spend the extra cash and get the Hoodman Cinema Kit. All this money, and so much needed training! Yikes!

Hey Lisa...

It's a constant learning process. I like to always pick one thing that I thought I did a good job or improved on. Then critique the rest.

I would do a little work on the text in the beginning. To me "simple" is in. Sometimes I spend hours messing around in motion playing with all the functions and options. In the end simple white text over a black background still looks the best.

I think as an editor, you could have done something a little more with the footage from the park. Possibly try giving it that Super 8 look...

Some might disagree... But I've learned to trust my LCD screen. At first I was having issues with my footage being a little bit darker on my computer, so i bumped down the brightness 2 notches. Now I'm completely satisfied with my shots. I only meter my shots here and there.

Steve

Hey Lisa...

It's a constant learning process. I like to always pick one thing that I thought I did a good job or improved on. Then critique the rest.

I would do a little work on the text in the beginning. To me "simple" is in. Sometimes I spend hours messing around in motion playing with all the functions and options. In the end simple white text over a black background still looks the best.

I think as an editor, you could have done something a little more with the footage from the park. Possibly try giving it that Super 8 look...

Some might disagree... But I've learned to trust my LCD screen. At first I was having issues with my footage being a little bit darker on my computer, so i bumped down the brightness 2 notches. Now I'm completely satisfied with my shots. I only meter my shots here and there.

Steve

Hey! That's a good idea to use a super 8 look. Yes, Motion sucked me in, I admit.

Funny thing is my LCD/cam meter said it was exposed properly and it wasn't. I trusted it to my detriment.

my LCD/cam meter said it was exposed properly and it wasn't

Which meter is that? On a dslr?

I always expose based on what I see and experience, if you film enough after a while you know when you have it right. I also use a gradual nd fader filter which goes from nd2 to nd400, those I use only on my fast primes, I do this to set the f-stop at f1.4 or f2.0 to get nice shallow dof and use the nd filter to expose right.

Once I"m one a steadicam I use a wide angle and set my f-stop to get a bit more dof, since you move around with this it's easier to knock out focus so I don't prefer a shallow dof here.

About the loupe, there are plenty on ebay, just type in loupe dslr and you get a whole list. You possibly are better of ordering in the usa as otherwise you get higher transportcost and customduties.

Lisa, you should start with learning the basics of filmmaking by going to the library. I am not able to give you a sentence or two to explain framing.

It's called the rule of thirds, and it's a general method for framing ALL shots. It is not always followed, but ANY movie or TV show or documentary follows this general rule for framing for virutally every shot you see everywhere. It is used by photographers, everyone. There are different ways of implenting it for different shots.

But most glaring in your video were the overexposed shots, you really need to learn how to use your camera fast if you have weddings coming up.

You have an LCD, so you really cannot blame the lens for overexposure. I use FD lenses on my cameras also. Focus is an issue with the small screen, but not exposure. If it looks overexposed it probably is.

Try practicing in the park shooting trees, waterfalls, grass, etc. and taking the footage home and playing it right away. This way you can learn how your LCD looks in relation to how the final product looks.

Hey i cant view the peice, is it being worked on just a white screen??

just click on the title of the video

Using all wide shots really made it hard to see the emotion and intimacy between the couple. Except fro an establishing shot, you should really have closer framed shots, ESPECIALLY for something as emotionally driven as this.

Noa cheers...
I wouldnt be to hard on yourself Lisa, the story and flow wasnt bad at all!! What iso was you working at as it looks high instead of looking at your exposure faults! The loupe will definatly help and also what level do you have your lcd screen light on, that will give you a false reading on your eyes.... steve

ISO 160

It was cuz I had iris wide open. So many "duhs" for me.

But honestly, the one telling me to "go to the library" seems quite rude. There are many of us out here who aren't super heroes. When things like that are said, it just discourages others to show their work and to improve.

Listen if you get everything right! you will not learn! you have to make mistakes to move on! so you said yourself you know whats wrong so move aside any fear of doubt! get out there and film. Passion comes in many ways and i filmed today for a wedding saturday and still got something wrong after 5 years of filming. Now i made a note it wont happen again.. or will it... go get em Lisa

I warned you in a previous post that a DSLR is not an easy tool to work with, it's actually much harder to get right then with a "real" videocamera. It does not forgive and your clients will not forget if you get it wrong, it's that simple.

It's like Jeff said, it's the basic filmmaker rules that make it all come together, right focus, exposure, whitebalance, sound and good framing are the most important ones. Once you can master all these with your camera, then you can start doing the fancy stuff. A story is ofcourse equally or sometimes even more important but you need to get the basics right to support that story.

First off all: focus, that you MUST get right, pratcise, practise, practise. Don't even think about focus pulling in the beginning, just set the focus right and start filming, use the camera zoom function to see if you have it right.

If you are on a tripod, always check if it's level.

Exposure: like Stephen said, film in a lot in different circumstances (dark or light places) and compare right after that on your lcd screen to see how your exposure looks like, after a while you will know when you are right. A dslr doesn't have the right tools to verify your exposure like a real videocamera so you need to learn by experience.

Whitebalance: use the presets from the camera, I use those presets when there is no time for a real white balance and i use a expodisc now which gives me good results but on a rear occasion I get a totally off whitebalance with very green images and I"m sure i"m doing something wrong which I haven't figured out yet, but all the other times I get accurate color. So if everybody looks like the hulk I use the presets :)

Framing; only thing i can say about this, look at a lot of videos from known videographers, that's the best learningschool. But even there you sometimes find guys bending the rules and applying weird framing on purpose; f.i. showing people from the shoulders up in the right lower corner with a lot of "air" in the rest of the frame. That can work if you do very creative stuff and forces you to look at the image in another way, just look at the latest work from still-motion and you know what I mean. that's something you only can think of after you managed to get all basics right. Fancy stuff comes last :)

And most important, don't give up, even if these comments don't sound very positive, eventually you get there, (we all had to crawl first before we could walk, even guys like still-motion :)

the story and flow wasnt bad at all

I never said that the story was bad Steve, I said that all the material was there to make a fun story. In that part I don't have to tell Lisa what to do better because I"m sure she can teach me more then I her.

Noa that comment was not for you!!! It meant cheers for the link to view the video demo!!! steve

But honestly, the one telling me to "go to the library" seems quite rude. There are many of us out here who aren't super heroes. When things like that are said, it just discourages others to show their work and to improve.

I"m sure Jeff doesn't mean to be rude but I can understand what he means. I can see you have passion for your work and that's all you need to get started in this business, showing your work to a larger community always requires a lot of courage and is the first step to succes, (you also know what they say about opinions, their like ***, everyone has got one. :)) but it is you who has to take with you what you find important.

Noa that comment was not for you!!! It meant cheers for the link to view the video demo!!! steve

oops, sorry :)

No worries pal....

"The one" who mentioned the library? My name is Jeff.

Lisa, you can't learn everything you need to know about video in this forum. In another thread it was suggested, albeit a bit less direct, that you should start doing more of your own legwork, and I second that.

Posting videos is fine, and asking for feedback is great, we all do it, but why were you holding your breath if you didn't expect direct responses?

Steve, she needs honesty at this point. Otherwise she'll go nowhere.

Hey Lisa,

Can't see the video somehow (it's set to private).. so I can't comment :)

A lot of useful feedbacks in this forum. I learn a lot myself from this forum. And I agree you can get a lot more from other places too.. consider workshops around the area or shoot a film with a friend who understands basic of DSLR. Or even watch some DSLR movie basic that you can get (eg. Don Bloom's).

Hope you dont get discouraged. We all learn from mistakes. Everyone has and always will make mistakes.. its all part of the hard learning process. And DSLR its not an easy tool to work with anyway.

But its not something impossible. All the comments here are something you can definitely work on. And if you find DSLR is too difficult for your style of shooting.. its not the end of the world.. you can still use standard video camera like many in this forum do. And you can still produce a great movie.

I'm sure your next one will be better! :)

Jeff, it seems to me that you always criticize on this board pretty harshly. The rule I try to go by is to point out one positive element of someone's work for every two negatives. You out and out slammed Lisa's work and all but suggested that she think about a different career path. There's a place for criticism and it can be helpful, but its also helpful to encourage others.

Jeff's right. The thread title asks for a critique. Lisa says she's ready to take the blows. Not knowing something as basic as framing is fine if you're in sixth grade but not if you are charging money. Imagine if you are going in for plastic surgery and the surgeon picks up the scalpel and says, "What's this?" No matter how much enthusiasm the surgeon has or how much she just knows how you should look when she's done, you're outta there.

Going to the library doesn't mean you're a superhero. It means you're an adult and a professional.

If you ask for criticism you should be able to take it. It is not rude when people give you what you ask for. And they are not required to "encourage" you to deliver bad work. This forum is not a basic film making course. And smiley faces and exclamation points do not substitute for knowledge and thought.

And none of this means we do not wish you well. We do. This is not something you learn overnight. Keep working at it, learn the tools of your craft, keep trying and posting and develop a thick skin like everyone else. Passion is a requirement but it's not the only requirement -- it is most assuredly not "all you need." You must learn the tools and skills and basics. It's fun to just jump in a buy a lot of cool gear -- we've all been there. But it's not the most productive way to master your craft.

People used to do apprenticeships for years before they went out on their own. Maybe there is something to be said for that.

Adam, I'm glad you showed up.

Chris, if you did not notice her video was not a personal video. It was a save the date trailer. You realize this will be shown to possibly hundreds of people and likely many potential clients, right? Do we lie to her? Did you see the video? A save the date trailer has huge potential to hurt or help her future prospects. This is crunch time for her, more than she may know.

When I started out in the business, I took my first wedding to the best, highest priced studio in the area (at the time) and asked them to critique it. They did, and I was devastated. But I got over it.

When people ask for feedback, it's usually praise they want, and that is how it has always been. I listened, applied what I was told, and then I read everything I could get my hands on about filmmaking. This is how I learned to frame shots for example. I am not a high-end or even an exceptional videographer, I shoot average, decent videos, that is all. And I have made more than my share of mistakes.

If the original poster is being paid for this work, what should we tell her? What does she tell her clients someday when things go wrong and footage of the vows is bad? That they hurt her feelings? Have you never had an unhappy customer? I have. They can be downright nasty.

I sent a film school graduate out to do a wedding last year and he screwed it up so badly that it has cost me multiple bookings and the friendship of two photographers. Has that happened to you? This is the idea behind my comments. If Lisa were sharing a cute video sample of ducks at the lake, asking for feedback, my response would have been markedly different, if I had even bothered to comment at all.

Lisa will be fine. She has a huge desire and persistence. She may be offended if I was a bit direct, but she will get over it. She will start reading up, hopefully, on some basics, she will watch movies and televison with a more critical eye, and start to understand those things we all need to do to make a watchable wedding video.

Thumbs up Jeff. Well said. :)

Not all judges are nice in Masterchef, US Idol, Britain Got Talent (Okay I watch too many reality shows). But the key is not to take it personally and take what you think will benefit you.

Back to topic.... Lisa, you're there? :)

Lisa,

Don't get discouraged if you hear comments that you feel are harsh. Just remember that the opinions that really count are those of your clients. That's not saying that there aren't good comments that you're getting. Just don't take anything too personally.

On that, here's a couple of things to think about. Keep in mind that I do not shoot weddings so I'm coming from more of a movie perspective but a lot of what I've been seeing from wedding videos is that they are going toward more of a movie direction at least of late.

So of course the basics of focus and exposure are the first things to get down. Those are a function of a couple of things. Understanding the operation and limits of your camera, and understanding basic physics of light. Basically remember that it's better to underexpose than over expose. Once a picture is blown out there's no going back. Set up your camera so that it doesn't crush the blacks in the camera. I know it's always fun and impressive to shoot something then plug your cam into your TV and see those dark over saturated colors. But for what you're doing, which is creating an overall viewing experience, you want to retain as much information as possible so that you can create the look you want in post. If you are doing a Same Day Edit then you need to adjust to minimize your workflow, but for most situations you'll want to shoot to give you the most latitude. And here's the harsh reality part, if you can't figure out how to focus and set exposure correctly in about a month you're not practicing enough. Yes I did say practicing. You should be shooting everything at this point to get all the practice you can get.

Framing basics - The rule of thirds is a good starting point. Generally you want your talent's eyes or any other main feature to be in one of the intersections of the lines created by the thirds. For beginners, don't leave too much head space or negative space above the subject's head. Also, leave more room in front of the subject or the direction they are looking or moving. If you watch movies you'll notice that this is how most scenes are framed and almost every scene that is happy or light (in feel) is framed this way. Leaving less room in front of the person gives an anxious feeling and is usually used to build suspense. Watch a thriller or scary movie. On those tight close ups it's better to cut off the top of the head than the chin. Just an industry standard. Also, try to watch for strange frame lines. Cutting off women at their breasts is usually not done unless you're making an adult movie, and it usually feels odd when you cut a subject right at their crotch. There are a bunch of other strange frame line that you'll pickup as you go along.

Once you get that, there is a lot more to framing than just the rule of thirds. The main thing is to always frame your shots to portray the subtext that you want to present. Use angles, placement of the main subject(s), and the background features to tell your story. An example would be your shots of the two outside when they were blowing bubbles. What message did you want the bubbles to to tell. Are they to give the impression that the couple are very playful? Rather than just shoot them wide playing in the bubbles, maybe have them framed to show the features of their faces as he blows the bubbles, Showing her smile as he blows the bubbles might portray him blowing kisses to her and the bubbles represent each of his kisses. I know it may sound funny but those are the things that separate a good story told from just a bunch of pictures stuck together.

Your editing could also be tightened up. There are a lot of times where you cut to them getting ready to move, then they start moving after you see them. It creates a break in the flow and feels off. You can see this in the first scene outside when the are walking toward each other. They're standing for a split second before they start walking towards each other. Try cutting to the scene after they've started walking and see how much difference that makes. Believe it or not, moving your cut 1 or 2 frames makes a huge difference. Read In the Blink of An Eye for a good primer to editing theory.

That's just a couple of things to look at. As has been mentioned already learning this takes time and if you tackle a couple of things every time you shoot, you'll get around to all of it in about 20 years. Like others have suggested, go read some books, start with the basics of cinematography and lighting. Then move on to editing and more artistic theory. Watch a ton of movies. And not the crap that's usually put out by Hollywood that you see in the theaters. Watch Citizen Kane, 8 1/2, City of God, those are just some movies with great camera work and there's a lot of shots you can steal from and use in your projects.

And, IMHO the best way to learn is to shadow someone who has the skills you want. Work as their assistant, then go out and practice what you're trying to learn. Don't wait until the day of the shoot to try to achieve a shot you've never done before.

So there's no magic formula, only a lot of studying, hard work, and fun as you perfect your craft. Most importantly, make sure you keep having fun. There are a lot of easier ways to make money so if your not having fun go find another thing to do. For every person who thinks you've created a master piece, there will be two who think you've just created the worst thing since Plan 9 from Outer Space (if you don't know that one don't watch it!).

-Garrett

Do you do weddings full time? I do. It can be brutal.

Try making movies. Not only are they brutally honest, In a lot of cases, people are trying to deflate your ego to thin out the herd.

Everyone has a different way to say what they have to say so I never take things personally. Also, I agree that you guys are in a very difficult business and you definitely want to make sure that if someone is calling themselves a professional that they represent the industry well.

just my buck fifty's worth.

-Garrett

Garrett, your post is thoughtful and well written.

BTW, I am all over the book you recommend, my library has it and I'm picking up tomorrow, if I can get over there. I do love the concept tht the title is based on, of cutting when you blink, really cool, cant wait to read it.

Anyway, my statement regarding "Do you do weddings full time?" etc was actually trying to ascertain if Chris realized what the original poster faces as a wedding videographer. In retrospect, I did come across in that comment as sounding a bit arrogant, which was not what I was trying to convey. I think I'll go back and rephrase that. This whole deal just got exasperating for a minute.

Wedding videography is not particularly hard, unless things go wrong. It is a fun business, with some really great folks, and our working conditions are excellent.

My god, at my wedding Saturday I was offered a meal of filet mignon and salmon, all I wanted to drink, and was encouraged to have a good time. Of course I did not eat or drink, and I was working non-stop running four cameras, but it is a nice enviornment to be in. I've often wondered how I got so lucky to be paid for what I do. On the other hand I'm a lower end vendor, and I'm not well off, but I do like what I do, at least on a good day. But I digress.

Garrett, I probably know 10% of what you do about the variety of ways to frame a shot. Great storytelling is certainly more involved than just blindly following the rule of thirds and composing shots to fit that spec.

But for general weddinig videography, a beginner obviously needs a grasp of these things. I remember the Eureka! moment when I read my first book about how to shoot video, when I learned there even was such a thing as the rule of thirds! I was ecstatic! Now I knew what to do to make things look somewhat decent when I aimed at a subject, and how to follow them!

It is when these basic concepts come together we can then start to produce work that looks somewhat professional, as has been pointed out in better ways than I have phrased it.

Jeff, I completely agree that you have to first master the basics. I don't shoot weddings but I do admire how good some of the projects I have seen are. I should have also mentioned, from my observations, that another essential skill in making a good wedding video seems to be an ability to follow and anticipate what is going to happen in an unscripted situation. One of the things I truly admire with your industry is the ability of the really good people in it to be part sports camera op. I'm sure a lot of it comes from experience in knowing what to look for but it's a skill I still admire.

You'll really like Murch's book. There's some really good concepts in there. If you haven't already read it, the 5 C's of Cinematography is another good read for camera techniques. I'd be interested to hear how much you find either or both of those books applicable to the work you do. It would be really interesting to see if you could shoot an unscripted event like a wedding and create a movie from it. You'd need a lot of cameras and the poor camera ops would be killing themselves to keep out of each others shots, heck, we have a hard enough time doing that when we control everything. It would be interesting to see how a project like that would turn out. I feel another experimental project coming up. If I can find a bride and groom who would be willing to let me do it.. LOL

-Garett

That would be cool, Garrett. The possiblities would be interesting!

Garrett, the 5 C's title looks excellent, but my library only has it as a reference title :( which means of course that it cant' be checked out!

I'll have to order it from amazon, but what a great recommendation, thanks a million.

Of course it's right to observe the niceties of politeness on forums, but we owe it to the poster and ourselves to be honest also.

Observe, this work, which lacks so much in so many ways, isn't presented by a rank amateur but by someone who boasts on their website that they sell "stunning video you can be proud to share".

If only for the sake of the good folk of Menomonie, WI, we should have the courage and honesty to say, sorry but this isn't good enough to sell under any description.

Lisa asked for criticism; I'm afraid mine is until you learn your craft you are doing yourself and the the whole industry a disservice.

I'm afraid mine is until you learn your craft you are doing yourself and the the whole industry a disservice.


Ouch ! that's a tad harsh..i think she gets the drift and admits that she needs to work a lot on her shooting technique and skill... we were all there at one point...When people say they want critical feedback im pretty sure they are looking for technical tips and not putdowns like this one..

Kren
Vertical Video Works* Winnipeg Wedding Videography (http://www.verticalvideoworks.ca)

Phillip, you did jump in a bit late, and it would appear that the poster has been given plenty to think about already.

She has been beaten up pretty badly already, and to continue on at this point is just rubbing salt.

It is doubtful that she is following this thread any longer. nevertheless, Garrett, Noa, and others have offered some very sound solutions/advice, and at this point it is important we back off and allow the poster to take it in and build from this point.

In other words, we need to back off and allow her to find her footing again.

I am not judging your post one way or the other, but instead I'm suggesting we move on and let her alone. Just my two cents.

It would be great if we could leave this post to rest, i have had harsh comments 4/5 years ago from another site, it kills your confidence and dampens your spirit so..................Lisa knows her story she will bounce good in the future, thats what happens you always perfect and get it right, as i said to move forward you need a step back so good luck Lisa

Jeff and Kren, I accept what you've both said and I think you're right that Lisa's been given a lot of positive guidance, not just in this thread but in others which have asked very basic questions. If those had been posted by an amateur who was just finding their way around new equipment or thinking about coming into this as career, I would have done as indeed I have until now and written nothing.

But that isn't the case. According to her website this is someone who's been taking clients' money since 2009. If that's so what we have here are all the elements for one of those press stories we all abhor when a client refuses to pay for the job. And she doesn't appear to be budget either - $1000 for a single angle profile talking head and 20 cutaways to stills.

I make no comment about the level of questions helpful colleagues here are prepared to answer; I do think it's unfair to the clients if someone's taking money when they're still learning. If anyone thinks this is harsh, may I suggest you'd not think so if the next service to your car was done by someone at the same stage of their career in motor mechanics and who still charged you full whack.

Phillip, I feel you have gone a bit off topic. This thread has nothing to do with the OPs website, IMO.

The topic is her original video posting, which you have not commented on. Her website is absolutely irrelevent here, again just my 2 cents.

It's not off-topic; it has evolved, as most threads do, from the specific to the general and continues, I hope, to be of some use to other readers. Philip is absolutely right and his analogy is completely valid; it is exactly the same one I was about to use. The reference to her website is appropriate too, as it is linked in her profile and she is, however indirectly, using this forum to promote it. I generally follow Philip's policy of never, ever, commenting on requests for "criticism" like these because they always end badly; I only jumped in this time because Jeff was being unfairly attacked for very appropriately suggesting that the OP get some basic training in her craft.

This whole pattern is oft-repeated, and it seems to be unique to our business. Just a few months ago we had the jaw dropping assertion that "I know what brides want because I was one." It therefore seems to follow that you know how to make TV because you saw a show once. Doctors and mechanics proudly display their diplomas and training certifications on their workplace walls yet those aspiring to be in the video business get all hurt and offended if someone suggests they read a book, which the effort of doing so apparently requires super hero powers.

With all due respect, Jeff, you were the one who opened the door by suggesting she keep her prices low and head to the library. Both very good and appropriate suggestions, but not right to now chastise Philip. What's more helpful in the long run, making you feel good in the moment or getting genuine advice? Would you rather have feedback from Paula or Simon? We are under no obligation to encourage the lazy or incompetent; I'm not saying the OP was either, but someone who is not only not willing to read a book but is offended at the suggestion and at the same time purports to be a professional in a field where they have not had a modicum of training and possess not much knowledge of the basics, and asks for criticism but is not willing to receive it... boggles the mind.

Adam, I've softened my wording of my criticism of Phillip's post to reflect that I'm offering an opinion, and nothing more.

I still feel that to discuss her website here is off topic, but you may feel differently, and I respect your opinion, and I will respect Phillip's.

On the other hand, I have no problem with her website, and I'll tell you why. She has videos posted that are her own, and likely represent her product accurately, and that is all she can do.

Is her work stunning? Do I like what I see posted on her site? It would be easy to lambast her videos all day long, of course.

But in the end, she asked for a critique of her video, which we have done, and I agree with Steve this has gone on long enough. You may feel differently, and so might Phillip, but I think the thread is devolving, not evolving, by going down this road. Where does it end, anyway? Do we keep digging even further? Beyond the website, we can run background checks, and more, because she has offered her name, so wouldn't it all be fair game? No I think not.

The scenario of going even further may seem ridiculous, but it would be in line with the concept that it's all fair game.

Jeff, thank you for your courteous agreement to disagree, though you are incorrect in your assertion that I didn't comment on her posted work; I did in #36.

And it was Lisa who invited criticism of that work. That's why the evaluation she got, good, bad and indifferent was valid. She did not invite us to critique her other work, and quite properly, no-one did. The website was only relevant because what wasn't originally clear was that we were being asked to comment on a professional's work for which the client had evidently paid money. That was what made it different.

I agree that this thread has probably run its course but equally I hope it won't deter people, amateur or professional, from seeking criticism if they wish. Unless the same circumstances apply regarding the poster's standing, I will, as usual, refrain from comment.

I stand corrected, I did not remember or see your post about her video, sorry.

Don't misunderstand, I absolutely understand how you can think the website is relevant, from a big picture point of view. But as Adam points out, the thread "evolved". Evolved means change, of course. And my issue was with the change of focus.

As Adam points out, I opened a door by discussing her skill level and her need for study, which technically had nothing to do with the topic either. To have stayed perfectly on topic I would have pointed out specifics regarding the video, and left it at that. I did not, I strayed off into a discussion about other matters. I felt they were relevant, but in the context of her request for a crtique of her single video, were my comments relevant? Not really.

On the other hand, she did ask how to frame a shot, and at that point I became exasperated and recommended further study, which opened a whole other can of worms.

So for me to criticize your post, might be a bit of the the pot calling the kettle black, I suppose.

I actually do have a wedding today, so I better be off. I love the late starting ones, so much easier on my old body.

Jeff, I don't think you should beat yourself up about the way things developed.

Ironically, I too had become exasperated with Lisa's questions - and rather than express that exasperation in the forum, I'd written privately to a number of people here who share some of my views about the forum and commented that for someone who appeared to be active in the business, ie a professional in the precise use of the term, Lisa was asking some very basic questions eg How to focus her 60D, the use of ISO settings etc etc.

Having neither the patience which some others enjoy nor the intimate familiarity with the camera, I didn't reply but privately expressed the wish that people needing that basic level of help should read the camera manual, books on the subject - pretty much what you wrote later in this thread and (I believe) wrongly got censured for saying so.

It's one of the themes which to my mind recur far too often these days; first that people prefer to ask questions in forums rather than learn about their equipment either by reading the specific manuals or by trial and error; second that skills are a matter of getting a list of things to do from "experts", and repeating them in sequence.

In my view the reality is a bit like playing a musical instrument. Many people can follow the sequence, study the lessons then practice day and night and in so doing acquire a degree of ability on that instrument. However, without an intangible extra which I'd call talent, they will never become great players. In the same manner, I study the work of the great practitioners of our art, to try and discover what makes them great and to try and apply it to my work, not by mere copying or plagiarism, but as inspiration.

Unfortunately all event programme making and weddings place constraints on the degree of creativty we can use, and thus don't especially lend themselves to that methodology in a major way, but I do try and include something of myself, my soul if you want to get very deep, in my re-telling of the story of the wedding day.

We've now for certain come a long way from the critiquing of Lisa Maxwell's programme but I hope we've taken along a number of our fellow posters and not a few of those who only read the threads. I hope most have found some parts if not all of it useful and that everybody making wedding video production a business, has regard to the innate value in what they take money for doing and that it is more than just recording and editing sound and pictures.

Hi Lisa, I wanted to send you a message via the forums but you have turned off that ability. Do you have another way to contact you?

You can tap someone on the shoulder or you can kick them against the legs, both way's have the same meaning; to get the person's attention. I think some have kicked to hard, my guess is Lisa is not active anymore on this forum.
As for her contact details; you might ask Philip Howells as he seems to have been studying Lisa's website and I"m sure he knows how to contact her.

Think you're right Noa. I was going to suggest he contact her via her website, but her website is no longer listed in her profile. Danny if you do a web search for her you'll find her site I'm sure.

Guys honestly, Lisa had the chance to learn something in this forum but she chose not to.

Many people here tried to help her out and provide some constructive critique.

The samples of her work so far showed that she doesn't have it. Maybe she better start a different career path.
It may be better for both her and her unaware clients.

Let's move on.