Just got an email from Atamos taking pre-orders for the Samurai this summer. The price was only $1495 . Wasn't it originally supposed to be much higher - somewhere around $2500?

I had been planning on a sound devices unit, but that's a big difference in price. Anyone remember what the advantage was for sound devices besides reputation for reliability?

Any experience with the Ninja's reliability out there?

Don't know what features the monitor will have yet.

The Samurai does look attractive, but the Sound Devices Pix 240 does have a multitude of additional features:

*Avid DNxHD support (optional addon)
*Standard BNC Connectors (Samurai uses Mini BNC)
*Dual XLR input with Ultra low-noise (-128 dBu) mic preamps with phantom, limiters, line input (based on 7-Series recorders) Coming fron Sound devices, I would expect excellent audio quality
*XLR Line out
*Time Code & Genlock
*Compact Flash media supported, as well as 2.5" drives
*Has both HD-SDI & HDMI.
*LANC Control
*Keyboard input
*Appears to be a rugged field ready metal chassis.


So, you do get some more features for the money... question is... do you need them?

yeah but theres also an extra $1,000 to the price tag for those extras

Anyone remember what the advantage was for sound devices besides reputation for reliability?

Any experience with the Ninja's reliability out there?


A little over a month ago a producer I work with bought a Ninja to go with his F3. We were a bit rushed getting going and couldn't quite figure out a decent workable configuration for recording to it and having a client monitor (the shoot was at 24p) and I ended up pulling out my NanoFlash and had everything configured and working in a few seconds. The producer sent me an email the next day saying 'Nano Rocks!' and returned his Ninja.

I took a quick look at the Sound Devices recorder at NAB and was impressed with it. It's obviously larger than my NanoFlash (and burns more power), but its biggest selling points (in my mind) besides 10-bit recording are its xlr inputs. I was obviously looking at Beta firmware, bit it seemed pretty easy to use those inputs to add 2 channels (analog audio) or more (using AES-EBU) to your recording, while keeping the two channels from the camera, to give you the option of recording up to 8 tracks of audio with your video. This seems like a great feature, and since I'm a big fan of the Sound Devices mixers (and their preamps) I think their recorder will be a multitrack option I can trust. Obviously it's more expensive, but it really seems like a product I can trust. The one potential limitation is that I'm not sure how you would go about doing extremely long continuous roll recording, given its memory configuration.

Just my personal impressions, and obviously the Sound Devices isn't out there yet...

A little over a month ago a producer I work with bought a Ninja to go with his F3. We were a bit rushed getting going and couldn't quite figure out a decent workable configuration for recording to it and having a client monitor (the shoot was at 24p) and I ended up pulling out my NanoFlash and had everything configured and working in a few seconds..

well, you know this is all about the camera and not the ninja, right?

I think I get your point, but the Samurai is supposedly going to sidestep all that silliness.

How happy are you with Ninjas interface, speed, reliability so far?

No grounds for judging.
As I mentioned, the producer returned it the next day (after spending another day trying to configure it to work for him.) He apparently did spend some time talking to Atomos tech support and he said they were very responsive, but at that point the firmware version couldn't do what he needed. I wasn't personally in on the conversations, so I don't have all the details.

If I had to choose between the 2, I would hands down go for the Sound Devices unit. There are lots of things about the unit that make the Sound Devices appealing. The sound pres and timecode/genlock alone are sufficient. The ergos/functionality of the unit are way better in my view. The company has an unassailable reputation for devices that are meant for and can withstand the rigors of a production environment and I could go on. The feature list is quite impressive when you look at it and you can tell, once employed on a camera, it would a joy to use when in the studio or in the field...

Not sure why some people spend the kind of money they do on an F3, pour thousands into lenses, tripods, matteboxes, rails contraptions and then cheap out on devices that record footage to a company without a track record or a very short one. Maybe some have run out of money or haven't thought it through.

I would also feature track record and company after support into the buying decision matrix. This is what almost everyone here would do if it were a lens or a camera. A solid state recorder should be no different. Again this is your footage that you are talking about. Who of all the companies makes that test?

I would say for recorders under 10K...

Convergent Design (successful units with superb after support)
Sound Devices (untested unit but superb reputation for devices and after support)
AJA (recorders have had issues but fixed and superb after support)

The rest either have a near zero track record or a questionable approach to product delivery and suppport.

Something to think about.

The Sound Devices is clearly going to be a really solid unit.

But it was a lot of stuff I don't need, and it's bigger than I'd like...it's almost a cube which is going to make it awkward for handheld work. I won't stick stuff on rails out the back of the camera because it gets in the way when things get hot and heavy. Handheld tracking shots through doors at hour 16/2am is when those appendages bite the dust. Been there, done that.

So it's a tough call...right size, right price, right features (Samurai) but no track record, vs slightly too big, too many connections/features, slightly too much $$ (Pix).

I'll prob wind up with a Pix anyway, but it's a really tough call.

BTW, I found this out recently and don't think it's common knowledge quite yet, but Atomos is comprised of some former Blackmagic hardware people.

Definitely no track record yet, but so far I've been impressed with what I've seen.

YouTube - NAB 2011: Atomos Ninja and Samurai, 10bit uncompressed field recorder and monitor (http://youtu.be/aFpf2eeQvIA)

My gut feeling is with Nate so far. Sound Devices will be better , but I don't need any of the extra features except unusual situations suitable for renting. Size is most important. Unfortunately its monitor won't have many features I want like zebras, focus in Red etc, so it won't replace my TV logic. Frankly i wish they just made it smaller with a tiny monitor. That would be more valuable.
Re price. Yeah it doesn't seem much to add on to an already expensive unit but I've been tapped out for a while now and still buying accessories. Saving $1300 is a relief especially if its smaller also. Its hard to charge extra for something that an Alexa or red already has.

I'm not sure I will spring for the 4:4:4 option yet as 10 bit 4:2:2 sounds like plenty of quality. Wish that Sony could give us s-log in a free firmware update for the existing 10 bit SDI out. Is there any reason why s-log requires the dual output?

My understanding is that the S-Log update will permit 4:2:2 single link recording, likely out of the SDI port.

As for why they don't release it for free... that's a matter of it being a value added option, and Sony feeling they can charge for that feature. I think it's really quite reasonable.

Is s-log a great deal more complicated than an additional gamma choice?

I wouldn't presume the price to be set relative to the effort involved in the firmware coding for the S-Log curve.

S-Log is a professional workflow, and has never been available, to my knowledge, in a camera under $50k, and really is more the domain of $100k cameras.

So the notion that S-Log can be had on a $16.5k camera is pretty astounding.

"I wouldn't presume the price to be set relative to the effort involved in the firmware coding for the S-Log curve."

I would expect it to be exactly that. They are already giving plenty of stuff never available before nothing new there . I assume the 4:4:4 upgrade represents substantial effort and/or a hardware upgrade.

While Sound Devices have great pro-features ..
I think that an HD-SDI recorder for 1.495$ is a choice !

I don't know about the atomos former's relation with B.M., but atomos are great people, doing great job with all his best effords to go for affordable.

My 0.2 cents for

$1495 gets you the Pix 220 model, which only accepts HDMI pain in the butt inputs. Another thousand for the PIx 240 with BNC's. If one doesn't need Apple ProRes or Avid DN X HD video formats, nor the better sound recording capabilities, what else does the bulky black box with a fan in the back buys me over the more compact proven Nanoflash?

10 bit, which is a big deal in certain circumstances.

Also, a built in Lockit. Multicamera and/or dual system sound jamsynced TC. Running time of day TC, post syncing is a doddle.

Also you get, VTR style control of footage on the unit, industry trumping sound preamps, phantom powered pres and a company known for best in class product design, trusted in the industry at ALL levels.

I'm a very happy nanoFlash owner but to have a dim attitude towards the Sound Devices unit before the unit gets it's due with field testing is premature at best.

10 bit is a very big deal to most of us particularly to those of us that are moving into cinema replacement cameras where 10 bit or better source will become standard fare before we know it.

Would love to hear Nate's views on the quantitative difference between 8 & 10 bits when it comes to color correction and ultimately how the advantages of 10 bits affect our decisions in exposure & lighting contrast.

Brian,

There is a lot of material on DVinfo on that very subject going back at least 1 year probably 2. Have a go with the search engine here. Alister Chapman within the past week or two had an excellent post on the matter.

Thank you Andrew, me d....dumb. I'm in Vancouver most of the summer so if you ever hop the ferry over we can trade stories over coffee. <tiny@netvigator.com>

Wish I can wait a month or two but for a shoot happening next week, is Ninja the only 10 bit option at present since it has already shipped? Am thinking to relegate it to record Canon 5D when Samurai & Pix comes out in the summer. Atomos mentioned <http://vimeo.com/groups/romania/videos/16246480> if you record from the Canon 5D's liveview feed without pressing the record button, then the HDMI signal is uncompressed and you get a clean signal to the Ninja. If this is true the 5D has just gone up a major notch. Can anyone verify this?

I can verify that recording the 5d live view in standby is not a viable option. Regardless of what their website says.

Brian,

Do you know about AJA's Ki Pro Mini? It records in 10 bit 4:2:2 but the files are saved out to the Apple ProRes file format. Availability, last time I checked was pretty good on the Ki Pro Mini.

Below is a comparison chart that Abelcine Tech has put together of all the current outboard recorders:

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Recorder_Comparison_Chart_051611.pdf

here is the webpage it came from:

http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/05/16/camera-mounted-recorders-comparison/

Andrew,

Thanks for the suggestion and a very helpful chart. I did contemplated on the Ki Pro mini when I saw it in Abel before NAB and before hearing about Gemini's capabilities. The standard Ki Pro can be rented locally so I'll just use that next week over haphazardly getting the Ninja which seems like a ver.1.0 product. In a month or so the decision will either be staying with 10 bit 4.2.2. or going for the 4.4.4. upgrade using Gemini. On the other hand, the Blackmagic HyperDeck Shuttle at that price point seems hard to beat, even if it eventually becomes a back up field recorder. How do you feel about this unit?

The gamble is on Sound Devices Pix 240. In the audio world, they are probably the biggest brand in mixers and they have been doing a lot of work with hard disk recorders. They care about sound obviously so if it has a fan on it, it's got to be very quiet. AJA's KI Pro Mini has been having what seems like some issues and yes Atomos is pretty unproven - it's their first product. My money is still on the Sound Devices PIX 240 recorder because of the superior audio recording which I like. Let's see what happens.

What issues is the Ki=Pro mini having.
So far I'm attracted to the Samurai for price and size. Sounds Devices sounds great but the truth is I don't need anything except 10 but recording in Pro Res. Key Pro mini looks large to me.

My biggest gripe with the AJA recorders is they don't switch to the next CF card when one fills up. It stops recording. The convergent design recorders will fill a card and automatically switch to the next card during recording. They do this without dropping a single frame and it works very well.

During recording a long interview or a live event, it's a real pain to stop recording and switch cards.

HI Brian,

BlackMagic's HyperDeck Shuffle isn't out yet, as you know. If I was buying a recorder right now I would take a wait and see approach with it, It only has one drive slot so it has very limited application in a production environment, even less than the Ki Pro Mini which, like the HyperDeck has to be stopped to either switch to another memory device or to swap out.

If I had the money right now, I would do exactly as you just suggested... rent and wait for the dust to settle on a few of these new units.

If I were to hedge my bets, I would say for the under 3 grand unit I would say Sound Devices for over 6 I would be looking at the Gemini, Cinedeck and the Sony unit. All have their pluses and minuses and above all most of them have no field reports. Many have in fact settled on the Gemini but I am curious about the other units even though the price for the others is presently stated as higher than the Gemini. I am not going to rush into getting another recorder, it will be based on real need which is not only the quality of footage but also workflow considerations. The faster you work, the more money you generally make.

And I have to say this... Of the existing units, from a practical perspective the nanoFlash is by far the best recorder in existence. It doesn't crash, it doesn't overheat, it doesn't make any noise, it's super light, injest is very fast and it just works. It can be attached to anything with a strip of velcro, an HD-SDI cable and 6 watts of power. Most broadcast outlets will take footage from cameras recording to this unit. It's 8 bit but blessed by major large media outlets because it far exceeds the 8 bit, 422, 50 Mbit minimum that most require. So it shouldn't be written off just because it doesn't have the attractive specs that some of the other units have.

In any event, renting is the best option in my view. I personally wouldn't get a HyperDeck Shuffle except as a second unit and treat it as a novelty item for banging off short clips in uncompressed form. I can see something like this working if you were shooting a commercial in a studio but even then I try to eliminate as many things as possible that draw my attention away from making shots regardless of the shooting environment. Every piece of gear or bit you add to your rig is a potential distraction and a thing to go wrong.

"Set it and forget it" would be one of the main criteria I would have for a outboard recorder, so hot-swap would be a baseline requirement, Also featuring highly would be easy to configure (and confirm), easy to wire, power and mount and good after sales service record and a brand name that would instill confidence from a production company hiring me.

I agree with everything Andrew just said. The nanoFlash really is a great recorder.

Something I have seen quite often lately is so many people thinking 10bit is the holy grail for acquisition. Haven't most of us been getting by just fine with 8bit acquisition for many years? Also, how many here really push their images during grading so much that:
1) 8bit breaks
2) current NLEs with 32 bpc floating point cannot handle it

I have pushed 35Mb XDCAM EX in Premiere Pro and exported with 32bpc processing with amazing results. In addition, I normally grade in 8bit in Premiere and After Effects which handles most just fine. For heavier grading, I either remove noise and export to Cineform and import into AE or just use a 32bpc comp in AE.

Hey Nate, can you answer this please: with 10bit material, should you use a 10bit monitor or is an 8bit monitor good enough? Thanks.

Also, how many here really push their images during grading so much that:
1) 8bit breaks
2) current NLEs with 32 bpc floating point cannot handle it



Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.

I have pushed 35Mb XDCAM EX in Premiere Pro and exported with 32bpc processing with amazing results. In addition, I normally grade in 8bit in Premiere and After Effects which handles most just fine. For heavier grading, I either remove noise and export to Cineform and import into AE or just use a 32bpc comp in AE.

Hey Nate, can you answer this please: with 10bit material, should you use a 10bit monitor or is an 8bit monitor good enough? Thanks.

It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.

Andrew,

Thanks for the detail analysis. I've been a fan of the Nano for all the reasons you stated. The math improvements in 10 bits is certainly compelling and I'll shoot some over and underexposure tests with the standard Ki Pro (hopefully not running into the problem Philipp Eierund did with his 8 bit vs.10bit posting) and see what real world grading with a FilmMaster tells me regarding breakdown points and color shifts on 8 vs.10, hopefully worth posting.

Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.



It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.

couldn't have said it better myself. The people who are "fine" with 8bit just dont realize what they are missing because their requirements dont need it. But when you're clients only demand the very best, 10bit is minimum for whats needed. The color information for post manipulation is paramount.

Just to be clear I am not stating people should be going 8-bit. I am stating that the decision to go with a 10 bit or better recorder should be based on need. Complicating matters is the state of the recorder market is very much in transition. The prudent thing to do would be to rent. A camera operator could end up saving themselves thousands of dollars by waiting a few months in order to make an informed decision based on field use and get a recorder that makes sense for their client base and workflow requirements. People who work largely on ENG/EFP/corporate jobs have an entirely different workflow than people working on drama or commercial work.

I don't question Nate's statement as I know he is right. Just issuing caution so people don't have buyer's remorse 8 weeks down the road.

Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.



It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.

Would you agree that the raw nature of R3D has the most impact on ability to manipulate in post?

Look at your last statement about 'colorists need 10bit monitors" - grading/CC is exactly why people say they 'need' or 'want' 10bit acquisition. For editing, 8bit vs 10bit doesn't make much of a difference because all major NLEs can process at 32bpc.

excellent video that addresses the fan issue with the Sound Devices PIX 240 recorder and if Sound Devices is ready to transition into video. YouTube - &#x202a;Sound Devices at NAB 2011 : PIX 240&#x202c;&rlm; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVYB69uMmo)

Would you agree that the raw nature of R3D has the most impact on ability to manipulate in post?


It's the 12 bit nature of RAW that allows it. BTW, Red's definition of raw and DSLR manus definition of raw is a bit different, so I guess I want to point that out if we are talking about what it's advantages/disadvantages are.

The other properties of Red raw (compression) work against that flexibility. The post-debayering aspect is probably a wash...helps sometimes, hinders other times. To get the best 'flexibility' out of R3Ds, you have to do a full debayer (as opposed to half or quarter), and that's either expensive time-wise or $$-wise, take your pick.

I can verify that recording the 5d live view in standby is not a viable option. Regardless of what their website says.

We confirm that none of the Canon cameras we've tried give a clean HDMI output.

Virtually every "traditional" video camera we've tried, does.

Dave Shapton
Atomos