Hi. I record/write songs as a hobby and have done some animated short films as less of a hobby. Both of these require vocals to be recorded, and I've used first an SM57, then a 58 for both of these types of recording. These mics sound okay, but I'm wondering if the grass is greener and curious about large diaphragm condenser mics.

I'm looking for something in the lower price range, say under $300 (that could be new or used).

Now, if I search for "cheap condenser mic", well, holy crap, you get 10,000 opinions on 10,000 mics. A few seem to pop again and again, like the Rode nt1a, that is both affordable and generally well reviewed, though there are some that say it's harsh/brittle/has too much high end/sizzle. There's a modded version available from Octavamod.com that's supposed to fix this issue, but they charge almost $400 for the modded mic (it's around $200 new).

Saw the thread on here about the shootout between four lower-cost mics (rode nt2000, at 4050, and several others). Only one of those was in my range and was described as being too "bright."

I realize it's generally said that the "best" mic depends on a) the voice being miked, b) the preamp (in my case, an Apogee duet), c) other stuff.

I would be using this for my crappy singing, different actors, and maybe, if possible mic'ing an acoustic guitar now and again (though they say small diaphragm condensers are generally better for this), so it needs to be more general purpose than just fitting my voice or any one voice, inasmuch as this is possible.

Recommendations?

Thanks.

We're NOT the right forum for this one - whenever we talk about this the most odd stuff surfaces. I would use a forum specifically for those involved in recording - here in the UK, the most popular one is www.soundonsound,com - but the content will really help you - there's a forum and plenty of reviews of microphones that won't break the bank, but sound really good. The recording magazines and forums for sound people have very good advice. The niceties of the recording world are quite different from the video world, where cost is King - All Hail the Dollar/Pound.

Brand snobbery is rife in the video world, where it's what you have that proves how good it is - and people slag off products they've never used, have very closed minds to anything new, and are not willing to even consider products that deviate from the established norm. The audio world are far less polarised, and nobody worries too much about products. Over here, we had a new artiste - a female singer - Rumour. Sold bucket loads of CDs and everyone praised her silky smooth voice and the quality of the recordings. Turned out it was recorded on an SM58!

The first time you hear ANY of the large diaphragm microphones you'll hear a big difference. You'll either like what you hear, or not. The small microphones all have a brighter, more technically accurate sound - large ones all sound different - good different/bad different. Some flatter one voice and don't work on another - some do most voices averagely. You never know until you try them. A $1000 dollar is not necessarily 'better' than a $100 one - it will be different. Only your ears will tell you if the $900 was money well spent.

Many people have the common mics for recording - up to a few years ago, certain mics were very popular, now others have taken over - it's just the way things are.

Go to a real store if you can, and try a few - the music stores often have these in stock. Use a pair of headphones and keep the same ones on so you can hear the differences.

I know this is generally a video forum, but it has so many members that a few are pros/specialists in this area, so I was hoping they'd chime in.

As for the going to the store and trying out different mics, I'm all for it, but here's the problem--as I said, it wouldn't just be for my voice, so unless I bring everyone with me, I'm only going to know how these mics sound on me. Kinda hoping I find something that, while it may not make everyone sound GREAT, it would at least be "safe" for a range/variety of voice types and still better than the sm58.

Hi Josh. I've got a good bit of experience recording music and VO for animation as well. A few suggestions, in the $300 range, which I've used pretty regularly would be the Audio-Technica AT-4040 ( LDC, $300 with shockmouont), Electro-Voice RE-20 (a dynamic mic, but awesome, new about $430, but you could go used), and another dynamic, the Sennheiser MD-421 ($380 new, but again, plenty of used ones out there).

I love the AT-4040 for voice recording, but you need to have a well treated room, as it will pick up more room ambiance than the dynamic mics I mentioned. The RE-20 is pretty much the standard broadcast mic for voice, and also great on kick drums and saxes, guitar amps, etc. The MD-421 is not used as much for voice as it is for instrument micing, but I've always thought it sounded good on my crappy voice, and I like it for voice-overs as well. Hope this helps!

I'm so sorry gents. I should have mentioned I don't have a studio or anything, just my small crappy apartment. I've had good results (in my opinion) with recording in my poor man's sound booth made of furniture blankets/moving blankets hanging off c-stand arms to form a v shape/90 degree angle (mic goes in the apex of the v), but the room is certainly not treated. . .hard walls, carpeted floor.

So, I understand some of the LDCs are switchable between polar patterns, and some are omni, and some are cardioid. Pretty sure I'm looking for either something switchable to cardioid or fixed cardioid. Don't really see a need for an omni pattern for the stuff I'm doing, and we definitely don't want anything picked up that doesn't need to be, so a more directional pattern is probably the way to go.

No worries! My "studio" is a bedroom and closet, but I have treated it for acoustics to a degree. First, you definitely want a cardioid pattern. I wouldn't worry about switchable patterns. It would add to the cost, and you'd rarely use other patterns, probably.

Your moving blanket/ c-stand vocal booth should work pretty well, as long as you (or whoever is singing or speaking) is standing inside the "booth" at the apex of the "V". Put the mic in front of them, facing into the "V". This way, reflections from the walls will hit the back of the cardioid pattern where rejection is higher, and any reflections that go into the "V" get tamed by the blankets and not bounced back into the front of the mic. Also think about positioning the mic so it is above the mouth and angled down instead of straight at the mouth. This can help reject any ceiling reflections.

I thought about getting two 4x8 foamcore pieces and gluing real acoustic foam to them, and making the right angle/v out of that, but the cost of that much tile is pretty expensive for no budget setup.

As for mic placement, it sounds like you're recommending the exact opposite of the way I have it now?

The mic is in the V, but pointed OUT toward the open air, so the actor faces INTO the v. You're saying it should be the opposite? Wouldn't that mean that the voice is projecting out toward a bunch of hard surfaces instead of into the blankets?

Opposite, yes! Put the talent in the "V", put the mic in front of them, then you can hang another blanket behind the mic. The way you're doing it, the mic is facing all those hard surfaces and collecting reflections from them. The person in front of the mic will block some of them, I suppose. Try it both ways and see which works better in your particular room.

Another "no budget" voice recording method I've used in the past. If you have a tall bookshelf, put the mic in front of it, facing out. Pull some books out more than others to create a random pattern which will scatter the sound. Have the talent singing into the bookshelf, and again, best to hang something behind them.

Something like an AT4033 would be a good low cost Mic.

That being said, I have been doing professional voice work for over 30 years now and have used everything from a 635a on a coat hanger to a re-capsuled U47. In all honesty nobody is going to know what microphone you used to record a VO with once it hits the air.

All the Best!

Dave

The NT-1A is my recommendation. Yes, it can be a bit brittle, but so can a budget preamp that's driven too hard. Keep the gain on the low side into a good 24-bit soundcard and the NT-1A will do the trick. Pops? They aren't a problem. Use a pop shield. Angle the mic so it doesn't point right at the mouth. (I usually put it about eight inches from the forehead, angled at the nose. If the voice is harsh, I angle it down toward the chest.) The pop problem people are claiming for this mic is a problem with technique, not hardware.

Regarding the high end, if it's too hot, that's what EQ is for. :) Looking for a mic that delivers the perfect sound without EQ is like looking for the perfect camera or lens that looks delivers a Hollywood film without grading.

The NT-1A is solid and has as low a noise footprint as you will find. It's a great foley mic for subtle sounds.

Regarding the EV RE20 - this thing sounds amazing for voiceover. I wouldn't use it for signing though. It's too aggressive. There is also the new, less expensive RE320. It has two contours - one for the RE20 sound (which is darn close) and the other for music recording. I tried both back to back at NAB. One could slightly EQ down the high end above 5kHz, balance the 2-300 Hz range to taste and get a total RE20 sound. If one of your goals is the big announcer voice, and the other is music, and you have a limited budget, you are precisely the target market customer for the RE320. With both the RE20 and RE320, pops are not a problem. They're made for speaking directly into the end-address, built-in pop shield. They also have little proximity effect. Technique-wise, using an RE20 or RE320 is nearly foolproof - that's part of what makes the RE20 the perfect radio announcer mic. ;)

I also recommend the rode NT-1A although if you can go for a little more cash the NT2000 will give you more flexibility and enable multi polar patterns as omni can be quite useful for close up work with voice over or singing. It's what I now use as my stock mic for V/O and singing in my music studio.

Yep. Moving up the scale on the Rode mics brings higher quality and more flexibility. Although, I wouldn't recommend going for a tube mic (NTK, K2) as your first purchase. Not that I have anything against tube mics, but they're often purchased for a warmer, more colored tone. I'd go with the more neutral solid state sound for a baseline purchase and not spend the extra cash for a tube, especially based on your use case. That said, if your main goal was to record violas, clarinets, and steamy female jazz vocals, a tube mic could be the right choice.

Thanks guys. . . regarding preamps. . .I already have an apogee duet, which is supposedly top end gear, which can provide phantom power. You're all saying this isn't good enough?

Thinking maybe I'll just wander down to guitar center and see if I can hook up and record samples from different mics into my Tascam audio recorder for later examination.

with mic placement, I guess my thinking was that if the reflections were absorbed by the apex of the V in the first place (the way I've been setting up), then there wouldn't be anything to hit the mic. I have done it with a four walled booth built the same way (blankets hung off c stands, and even a piece of egg crate/mattress topper laying over the top as a "ceiling"), so maybe I'll just go back to that. I thought maybe it was overkill since I really can't tell the difference between the two when I listen to the recorded audio.

My large "workhorse" mics are AT-2020's, used for bar-band shoots and for dialog and singing. They might not be the most glamorous or technically-advanced mics around, but they give a solid, reliable recording that's fairly flat across the board. I bought a pair of them and have never even considered replacing them for something better. They currently go for $99 USD at most suppliers. Even without the reasonable price, I consider them a bargain.

Martin

+1 on the AT-2020's for good and cheap! They were my first pair of mics for stereo stuff (drums overheads mainly), but I also like them on some voices as well. I ended up selling the other three pairs of mics (1 pair LDC's, 1 pair SDC's, and a pair of ribbons) I had bought since then and keeping the 2020's.

Get over to advanced audio in vancouver and check out Dave Thomas' condenser mics. they are very good.
Advanced Audio Microphones (http://www.aamicrophones.com/)

When you say get over. . .I assume you mean a road trip. I'm in Houston. See you at 8am. :-)

I just meant visit the site and considering these mics. I have a AA cm47 fet USB2 16 bit mic that goes directly into the USB port on my MacBookPro. It is very good. Less that $300.

I was just. . .JOSHING you.

Those are a bit out of my price range. . .I'm thinking the way to go is either cheap new or something used that goes for around $450-500 new.

And is USB the way to go? Folks emphasize preamp quality so much. I have this beautiful Apogee Duet (the one that generates phantom power, not to be confused with the pocket model) just sitting here. . .don't I want it preamping my mic (unless I got an even fancier preamp, which I'm not really looking into right now)?

No sweat mate. You've got choices ... USB serves me well on the go ... but to each his own. He makes tubes designed on the U47 & U87 ... also, fets ... and they are very reasonable. Top quality stuff. I mentioned these because you said inexpensive.

Here are some decent budget LDC's I did a shootout of. My Faves are the NT2000, and the AT4050. But you can get an NT2a for 400.00 with a cable and pop filter. It's the same as the NT2000, but with switchable polar patterns rather than variable, which isn't a big deal at all.

Large Diaphragm Condenser Shootout: AT4050, NT2000, AT4033a, Sputnik on Vimeo

Oh and I see AT4050s used for 350.00 often. Also check the B&H used section under mics. They often have some nice ones for a good price.

I'm a big fan of the M-Audio Nova. Looking much like the Neuman U87, this mic sounds really good for an entry level studio mic. Street price under $100usd.

Thanks. Lot of good suggestions here. I did a quick search and it looks like there are some disadvantages to USB mics, cost aside--


-most, if not all, record in 16 bit (or so I read). I have Logic and the Apogee Duet which, both of which allow for 24 bit recording

-if I ever did get a fancy preamp, I'd have to get yet another mic since the USB couldn't work with it

-usb apparently stops being effective at a certain cable length, not so with XLR

there are more, but those are the ones that really struck me. I think I'll keep searching for a non-USB condenser.

Pretty sure a simple cardioid pattern will do for me, likely won't need other pattern shapes. And able to handle high SPL levels.

As much as I don't want to, I may just have to go down to Guitar Center and do a quick shootout. . .maybe bring my Tascam recorder and record into that with a bunch of mics, read the back of a box or something. There are just too many choices, overwhelmingly so. Much worse than the "which camera do I buy" problem, in my opinion.

To me, a USB mic makes sense for podcasts and such where you work tethered to a computer and deliver on the web. An XLR mic can offer better sound and more flexibility. For instance, you might want to hook the mic to a field recorder for foley recording or remote work. You can bring a laptop, but then you have to deal with fan noise.

Chad has some great recommendations. The NT2-A is a definite upgrade from the NT1-A, giving you selectable patterns as well as higher-end condensers. Some time ago I had the chance to demo the Audio Technica line of large condensers, and each model up was a definite step up in sound quality, IMHO. By the time we worked up from the lower mics, the AT4050 delivered everything the lower mics were lacking.

Having switchable patterns is really nice. I'm borrowing a friend's Soundelux U97 (serial number 1!) for a corporate interview. Yesterday, I tested the available mics and the Soundelux in super-cardioid mode was the clear winner. Frankly, it's more of a singer's mic with a strong bass and smooth top end, but its lack of distortion and it's ability to tame reflections naturally put it on top. Regarding the response, with EQ I can make it sound boomy or thin, so the bassy, scooped frequency response won't be a problem. It will be mounted on a stand, so it doesn't matter that it's heavy for video use.

Unfortunately, neither the NT2-A or AT4050 have switchable super cardioid modes. Omni is only useful with an LD condenser if you have a good room, and figure-8 is only helpful is you do mid-side recording with two mics. Having these patterns won't hurt, but they might not get used much.

I wonder if you dial the NT2000 mid way between cardioid and figure-8 if you get a super or hyper cardioid? If so, the NT2000 might be the most flexible. Go between omni and cardioid for VO and put it on a stand between cardioid and 8 for sit down interviews - or on a boom if your audio guy is from muscle beach.

Again, you can EQ a response, but it's tough to remove distortion, and even tougher to remove natural echo in post.

When you say "distortion" do you simply mean from overmodulated recording, or something inherent in a mic's sound, regardless of levels/gain structure, etc.? Are there mics that distort no matter what?

There's hard clipping due to overdriving a preamp. You can also overdrive the mechanical element in the mic itself. And then there's THD or total harmonic distortion. That's just a way of saying that the electrical signal doesn't track the sound pressure signal exactly. A crummy system will sound like a bad telephone. A good one will sound like you're there. Typically, a mic with some distortion will sound a bit harsh, brittle, or even raspy. The NT1-A is guilty of some harshness, for instance, though it's really not too bad. It doesn't match the creaminess of a top mic though.

To me, the sound of a special microphone will be creamy smooth, but have a bit of bite to it as well. If you think of a baked potato, a clinical mic will be just the potato. A distorted mic will have too much pepper - if not sand! A smooth mic will have butter. A special mic will have butter and salt with only a hint of pepper - and no sand!

I should make a video of that analogy. :)

I don't think you'd make it through the video. You'd eat the talent.


But all these issues are either gain issues (overdriving preamp) or other operator errors, (overdriving mic element itself). . .as opposed to "this is just the way this mic sounds no matter what?", right?

Some good advice throughout this thread.

I remember spending hours perfecting a voice over track for a client (Rode NT1a mike). Superb sound, it sounded great on my system. Gave the job to my client who promptly placed the DVD in his player and watched the production through the TV with its in-built speakers. The sound was $#i'T ? to say the least.

The moral of this, is that you are never going to be in control of how the final production is heard. Get the best you can afford and optimize the sound quality, you can't do more than that.

Some good advice throughout this thread.

I remember spending hours perfecting a voice over track for a client (Rode NT1a mike). Superb sound, it sounded great on my system. Gave the job to my client who promptly placed the DVD in his player and watched the production through the TV with its in-built speakers. The sound was $#i'T ? to say the least.

The moral of this, is that you are never going to be in control of how the final production is heard. Get the best you can afford and optimize the sound quality, you can't do more than that.

Yup all the dubbing I did on ITV The Bill was viewed and judged this way, the producers and room of secretaries made the appraisal and never ever came into the dubbing suite in the five years I was there.

It used to be done on VHS but at least DVD gives you a half decent audio track these days!

My thoughts... Many audio novices seem to think throwing money into a new microphone or preamp is a magic bullet to better sound. When in reality they should be spending their money on the room.
A properly treated recording and monitoring environment goes a whole lot farther on return on investment than any microphone or preamp. A $10k microphone in a bad sounding room is just going to give you a very good recording of a bad sounding room.

All the Best!

Dave

Yup all the dubbing I did on ITV The Bill was viewed and judged this way,

It's a small world, I did the stills on many episodes of the Bill (I worked for TV Times). Gave up stills photography a few years back and am now enjoying producing DVDs and other promotional videos.

Nobody has mentioned Chas' test. I was quite surprised to discover my preference was for the Rode, and not the 4033 which I thought I could spot easily!

Regarding bad sound on cheap speakers, I recommend listening to your mix on as many crummy systems as you can before releasing the final mix. One final tweak can make a big difference.

For instance, due to background noise, those fine details might now be invisible. The voice might be harder to understand than expected. The deep bass of your monitors sounded great, but the mid bass was weak so it sounds thin on cheap speakers.

After listening, I'll be thinking, "six dB more on that sound effect; duck the music a bit more during the dialog, boost the mid bass by six dB - and mix down that trumpet. It stomped on everything!" With those guidelines, you make the adjustments, but ensure it still sounds nice on the studio system. In the end, your audio will sound as good as it can almost anywhere.

And no. You don't need an expensive mic or preamp to do any of that. Just access to crummy audio gear!

The reason I think I like the NT2a over the NT1a is not the switchable polar patterns, but the fact that the NT2a has a very nice capsule Rode spent 1,000.000.00 developing. I own an NT1, which is very similar to the NT1a, and for me I hear lots of "essss" in the recording. Every mic can accentuate the esss sound depending on how the speaker/singer pronounces their "S". So for me I prefer the capsule in the NT2a / NT2000 (the same capsule). And the 400.00 NT2a is the better bargain, as the variable pattern adjustment isn't really a factor for vocal recording of one person.

If your room isn't treated, you should do something about that, BUT short of that there are solutions that help. 160.00 Vocal Booth, The Portable Vocal Booth Home Edition at Editorskeys.com (http://www.editorskeys.com/portable-vocal-booth-home-version-soundbooth.html)

Or this portable booth: The Original Porta-Booth Portable Sound Booth (http://voiceoveressentials.com/content/porta-booth-original.htm)

You need a beefy mic stand for that, but it kills the reflections coming from around the back/sides of the mic.

Like I said, check out used mics. I've seen Rode NT2000s for 400.00 and NT2as for 300.00 at B&H. The AT4050 is a staple in studios for a lot of things, and it is nice on VO & singing. I was actually surprised that I liked the NT2000 better, but man they were very close. Mics last for years and years, so there is no shame in buying a used one. They are all used after your first session...

IMO USB mics are for kids and old men who want to play DJ on their computer. No offense to anyone, I just think you can get a decent interface for cheap. Or better yet, drop some cash and get the Sound Devices MixPre-D and you can use it as an interface, or a field preamp for video work.

Hey Josh.

I live in Houston as well, and own a rode NT2a as well as an NT1, if you want to listen to them Id be glad to help you out. shoot me a PM and we can make arrangements for you to try both of them NOT in the noisy environment of GC. might even be talked into selling one of them...lol

Gerry G

Oooh. . .I am intrigued. Let me get back to you.

Late to this thread, but the new Sennheiser MK 4 (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/professional_wired-microphones_studio-recording-mics_504298) is being extremely well reviewed and is right in there on the budget.

Well worth a look, I think.

Josh. hey I sent you a reply.

I recommended an AT-2020 to a friend who does book narration and voice-over work. She (and her clients) are very pleased with the performance. And it is now available with USB interface, making it that much easier for simple setup and operation.

Chad,
I liked mic 4 the best for all tests. Much less sibilance and most natural balanced sound. Is #4 the sputnik?

back up the topic somebody mentioned figure 8 only being good for m/s, but they're brilliant when you need to record two people talking to each other - stick the mic in the middle and balance them up by shifting the mic slightly towards one or the other.

The Key is at the very end of the video.

Mic 1: NT2000
Mic 2: Sputnik
Mic 3: AT4050
Mic 4: AT4033a