Greetings all:

I need a stabilizer for my wedding video business (GL2, of course). The best two options in my price range seem to be the Glidecam 2000 and Steadicam JR (w/o monitor). Could any of you give me a (detailed) opinion on this decision?

I'm looking to hear from highly satisfied customers in both camps, and especially anyone who's tried both.

Also anyone who's had very good results from another product in the same price range (sub-$400).

I'd like to buy in the next few days (no later than Aug 22nd).

My forum search has not turned up a lot on the subject, though I did learn that using the JR without a monitor (in other words, with the LCD screen flipped out as your monitor) can cause problems due to the rudder-like effect of the opened panel.

What do you guys think?

Thanks for reading

LD

hey man, don't move my post. It's a GL-2 question more than anything else, considering how these small stabilizers react to slight differences in camera style, weight, etc. Maybe I should've been explicit on that point. Well, I hope GL-2 users don't write me off as a "support" issue while support people ignore me as too narrowly GL-2 related. I'd still like an answer or two.

Luke,

I have used both the JR and the Glidecam 1000, 2000, and 4000 as well as many other stabilizers.

If you are planning on doing very long shots and are only considering handheld vs body supported units then I would go with the JR as the weight is held directly over the hand whereas with the Glidecam the weight is concentrated more on the wrist.

I just did a wedding where I was using a unit similar to a Glidecam 4000. After a few songs (groom and mother, and bride and groom) I was really straining which translates to instability. Not a good thing. I normally use a vest and dual arm but since I was the bride's father I didn't have that option. My son did the bride and father dance and he was dead at the end of the song (about 3 minutes). I believe the JR would have been easier to handle for this length of time.

The JR has a real frictionless gimbal whereas the Glidecam will have more weight making it more resistant to "footsteps" etc. I really depends on the user and his or her ability to handle the stabilizer.

Each unit has it's own +'s and -'s.

Good luck,

Tery

thanks for the info, Terry.

Would it be fair to say that you would prefer the Glidecam over the JR if you had the optional forearm brace?

A couple of things..

The "LCD screen as a Sail" issue applies to all rigs, not just the JR. - Allthough the JR with the monitor of course eliminates this.

Terry is right what he say's about the weight, the JR has the CG over your hand so you are holding it, not out to the side where it is twisting your wrist the whole time.

I'd definatly go for the JR.. not the copycat. - The JR was designed form scratch to work handheld, the Glidecam was just copied from full rigs and scaled down.. but it works in the wrong way for handheld.

And yes, this is deffinatly a support issue, and we don't care too much which camera you are supporting.. the same information is for everyone. Thoguh yes cameras do vary, so that's why we tailour our answers to your paticular situation.


- Mikko

Alright Mikko, no need to get sassy. :) I should've known it was a support issue, but I didn't even know this forum existed. My bad. Thanks for your input. It sounds as though you need more skill to operate the JR, but the Glidecam will wear you out faster.

Now I'm wondering if anyone knows where I can find some sample videos shot by a Steadicam JR. Glidecam has some on their site, and I've seen some shot by a wedding videographer with GL-2's (the footage simply amazing), but I can't seem to locate those JR samples.

Any idears?

I went through the same pain and ended up buying a Steadicam JR (with monitor) for my PD150 with W/A lens and large battery. Balancing was a challenge (I needed the optional weight kit) but once done, it only needs fine adjustment. The plus for me is that the PD150 is dedicated to the Steadicam and with the optional case, the whole lot is set up and ready to go. I now take it on every shoot as a backup to my main cameras, and it's available whenever I need a "steadicam" type shot. I also added a spare tripod plate which not only helped balance, but also means it can be quickly mounted on a tripod if necessary. The comments about usage above are right - you wouldn't want to use it all day!

I've not tried the Glidecam, but for me, I think as it's more cumbersome, I probably wouldn't use it and it would gather dust somewhere!

The only concern I have is that the Steadicam JR is plastic, so I'm not sure how robust it's going to be... that said, so far, so good!

Graham
www.mediainventions.com

D'you hear that guys? I'm sassy! :-)

Luke,
As you mention it.. I do happen to have a couple of shots from the JR...on my website: http://mikko.n3.net in the 'Video Gallery', there is a clip called "Grand Prix Soundtrack" - It's a 1min peice I put together of my (definatly newbie) exceution of the final test shot at a Steadicam workshop last fall.
The shots in 16:9 are shot with a big rig by me, but the 4:3 shots are shot with a JR. - They arn't very long, but they are rock solid and smooth as glass.

...And for 10 extra points and a chance to advance to the bonus round, who can identify the JR operator?

- Mikko

Hi Miikko
Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like the great Garrett Brown on the JR at about 30 seconds into the clip. That's pressure using a full Steadicam with the master on a JR watching you!!
Have you got any more of the JR footage?
Graham

Definetly Garrett. I recognize his voice.

Hey Mikko,
Stand up straight, will ya? Thanks for the clip. Good stuff.

Now what exercises (and how to do them) do you guys recommend for strenthening that stabilizing arm (besides curls, of course)?

That's pressure using a full Steadicam with the master on a JR watching you!!
Graham

Oh that's just the Fun of the workshop! - Though the real fun is reviewing it all together later!
..Though I must admit, there was definatly adrenaline flowing for some reason or other :-)


Have you got any more of the JR footage?
Graham

Not really anything worth sharing.


Now what exercises (and how to do them) do you guys recommend for strenthening that stabilizing arm (besides curls, of course)?

Practicing using the rig of course! :-)


- Mikko

Hi Mikko

Took a closer look - was the wobble at about 54s shot by GB as well - if so, it's great he has the odd wayward moment - I've been trying hard to eliminate this sort of movement...(!)

Many thanks for the insight into the Steadicam course!

Graham

Garrett has always been amazing with the JR, which is its own special skill outside of the big rigs. He is somehow able to operate and perform a comedy act at the same time, wielding the JR like a mute, high tech ventriloquist puppet. It's lots of fun to watch.

In defense of GB, teaching workshops involves a mind-numbing amount of repitition (his momentary wobble with the JR may well have come while he was simultaneously receiving a cell phone call or mentally balancing his checkbook) --Mikko's soundtrack is actually quite apt. You got tired of hearing "stand up straight"? Imaging having to be the one to adominsh it to virtually every operator all through the workshop--and then multiply by how ever many years one has been teaching (in GB's case, over 25 years). I only taught for about 5 years and I'll admit to not having nearly as much patience as the Big Guy!

By the way, do I get extra credit for ID'ing Jerry Holway's voice at the start of the Grand Prix?

Looks like you had fun at the workshop Mikko, keep on flyin'!

Oh I had a blast...
Hell, I'd do the workshop again, even if I wasn't going to become and operator!

5 more points to CP for ID:ing Jerry, who's voice actually apeard a lot throught the video.. He was my grip during the shot (See the end)

Yes the 'wobble' at the end was GB... He was actually making space for another 'voice' to come in with more (of the same) adivce.
- Another 5 points up for grabs here: Who's the female voice at the end?


Hmm, another thread off on a tangent...

- Mikko

yeah, thanks guys. So, what kinds of exercises are especially useful in training the arm to remain stable during long shoots? Any tricks of the trade I should know about? (besides the simple curl)

Mikko: Laurie Hayball?

Bicep curls are good, Tricep pull-downs helped me a lot too. Flying the rig daily is a better exercise though, and it most certainly will teach you to be a much better op.

Sorry Luke, I was one of those guilty in hijacking your thread...

The first thing that usually sees the fatigue with a handheld stabilizer is the forearm, so make sure to focus on those--wrist curls are the ticket, I think. Popeye would have made a great JR operator.

That's ok Charles,
Community is a good thing. I look forward to the day when I too can pick out a video professional by the sound of his/her voice on a demo clip. Love this forum. Thanks to all for your answers.

thanks for the info, Terry.

Would it be fair to say that you would prefer the Glidecam over the JR if you had the optional forearm brace?

Luke,

Sorry for the late answer. I'm switching around computers and getting a gimbal manufactured as well as school for the kids and all.

The forearm brace does help the wrist but the weight moves to the shoulder area. Having my own system which hooks onto the body is the only really way to handle Glidecam style systems for extended shoots.

How to bulk up for just handheld...When using it that way I feel a strain in my forearm and elbow area. Maybe it would help to get one of those braces used in case of tendonitis. It would help keep the muscles for going wacky I think.

Tery

Mikko: Laurie Hayball?
Yup.

- Mikko

Hope this is still relevant, but I used the GlideCam on a short film shoot recently and found it very cumbersome, and unpredictable, maybe I'm just a crap operator, but I ended up simply using the monopod bit without the arm and vest and that produced much better results.

When I returned it to the hire place I told them about it, and the guy there showed me a new piece of kit he's got called the SteadyTracker Pro, no vest, no arm, simply the monopod part and DAMN is it steady, the shots I got within 5 minutes were amazing. Unfortunately it costs more than I can afford to buy, but still less than the GlideCam.

Andrew: sounds like the Glidecam was not set up properly for you at the very least. The Steadytracker is probably more intuitive a device, and requires virtually no practice, but with the right guidance and plenty of time in the rig, the Glidecam should be capable of better stabilization and control than one can achieve with a Steadytracker.

Terry-
The elbow brace is a good idea. I'll look into that. This thread has turned up some great info. Thanks all.

I've had my Glidecam 2K Pro for a couple of months and am very satisfied with it (I'm using my old Vx1000). Once it's balanced, and with practice, the unit is great, and I can run like hell and still get an incredibly smooth shot! I was amazed, quite frankly. It will take practice, and lord knows I need it, but once you get the basics, it's awesome. I recently attached a Marshall 4" LCD w/battery pack to the base and rebalanced it perfectly, but boy is it heavy now! The optional forearm brace does help redistribute the weight to your biceps and shoulder muscles, but I still fatigue. I think when I can afford it, I'll pick up a smooth shooter for longer tracking shots. Here's a short sample "home" video that has some G2K footage of my son.

For dialup users or those in a hurry (5MB), decent low-resolution, small
size:

http://rapidshare.de/files/6011716/Nathan_2005_5mb.mov


For the bold hi-speed users (25MB), better resolution and size:

http://srtred.com/FamilyVidz/NATHAN_2005.mov

-thanks for sharing, Armin-
That looks great. I went with the 2K myself and have been very pleased with it; great results so far. The tripod quick-release mounting plate and arm brace are necessary for use in a wedding situation.

-thanks for sharing, Armin-
That looks great. I went with the 2K myself and have been very pleased with it; great results so far. The tripod quick-release mounting plate and arm brace are necessary for use in a wedding situation.

Thanks Luke - I agree, I bought a Bogen 3273 QR plate:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home;jsessionid=DNdyM8mdbn!1926598357?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=5566&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Works like a charm.

Terry you say:

"The JR has a real frictionless gimbal whereas the Glidecam will have more weight making it more resistant to "footsteps" etc. I really depends on the user and his or her ability to handle the stabilizer.
"

I have used the JR 2-3 month in Croatia with GL2, when i filmed the waterfalls.
I'm happy with the result, but not 100%, because i can see my footstep
on the footage. And i think with the GC2000 this footstep eliminates, because of another gimbal design. If i change my arm higher, the camera moves higher with the JR, but maybe NOT with the Glidecam. (because the gimbal rotates)
Am i wrong?
My friend has a GC4000 with Z1, and produce amazing footage after 4-5 days learning.

thx,
Marton

Both gimbals rotate. I'm not a GC expert but based on what I know, it would be helpful to maintain the same angle of the handle to the rig as you boom up and down. A rotation of the wrist to the right or left would seem to me as being more influential on the GC because you are displacing the rig to the side and vertically as you do so, whereas on the JR or Merlin the rig stays in essentially the same position.

In general I would agree that a heavier rig dampens the vertical movement (i.e. footsteps) more but even with a light setup you can get great results with practice, some of which involves your actual walk.

"Both gimbals rotate."

Imho this is false.
JR gimbals doesn't rotate when you boom your arm.
But GC does rotate a little.
Just look the design of both gimbals.

OK, please enlighten me--I don't see any mechanical reason why the GC gimbal would rotate with elevation, unless you are factoring in erratic hand movement. By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right?

Looking back, I think I see a confusion--I thought perhaps you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general.

My contention here is not that both rotate on booming--but I would still maintain that NEITHER should rotate if the boom is properly executed. By "properly", I mean that the elbow rises with the hand, so that the angle of the wrist is maintained.

"By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right?"
No, rotating around all 3 axis.

"you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general."
JR also rotate of course, but the footsteps are more visible than in GC.

Beacuse of the design of the GC gimble it is possible to move ("rotate") the handle up around the CG to take out 'bounce'. This is done by twisting the wrist - definatly not the proper operating as described by Charles. This is the same twist that is one of the fundemental problems with the Glidecam type rigs in handheld mode.

If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect, again by sacreficing comfort (and risking injuring your wrist)

Held properly, no gimble will dempen any displacement, horizontally or vertically. The idea of the gimble is to isolate angluar motion, so the camera doesn't rotate when you do.

- Mikko

"If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect"

I dont want to test it, because of the cheap plastic gimbal design.
What if i broke it? My GL2 wasn't so cheap...

There's my Steadicam JR for sale in the classifieds thread if anyone wants it.

"If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect"

I dont want to test it, because of the cheap plastic gimbal design.
What if i broke it? My GL2 wasn't so cheap...

..my wrist isn't cheap either. My point was that though you *can* do this with a Glidecam, you arn't supposed to beacuse it's bad for your hand. - That's why the JR doesn't facilitate for it with as much (wasted) clearance.


- Mikko

Thanks Mikko for getting to the heart of the matter. As he noted, the gimbal is there to provide isolation in the three angular axes: pan, tilt and roll. The three spatial axes (forward/back, side to side and up and down) are less critical to the stable effect of the photography and are controlled by the operator's arm. In theory, booming up and down should have no effect on the angular axes (if there is stiction present in the gimbal, some movement may occur--this is likely the case with these relatively inexpensive gimbals). And again, it is the sheer weight of the Glidecam vs the JR that would render the footsteps less noticeable.

Prech,

You know I was working on a real good explanation of the whole thing and then my power went out. Gone, gone, gone. I guess it's better to save the post and then edit it rather than loose it altogether.

Anyway, from what I have learned, the gimbal handle on a GC won't take much of the "footsteps" out of a shot since your wrist isn't doing much bending. It usualy keeps a constant angle just like when using an articulated arm.

Here are the three biggest contributing factors to getting rid of the blasted footsteps that I have found:

1. Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one. Charles P. mentioned this.

2. Practice developing a smooth control arm (sometimes called muscle memory). You do this by filling a glass with "Alien" blood. You know, the kind that eats through metal and everything else so you don't want to spill any. If you can't find Alien blood then water or any other liquid will do. Now go for a walk while holding the full glass in the same way you would hold the GC sled. Try to keep from spilling. The more you practice the better you'll get. Now do the same while walking backwards. Next try a combination such as forward, hold for 10 seconds, then backwards. From there do other moves that cause instability such as accelerating and changing directions. Remember to accelerate and decelerate gradually just like when using the stabilization system (most of the time).

Once that is completed move to the sled itself and see how much you have improved.

3. Walk the walk. Charles mentioned this as well. Keep your legs a bit bent and try to walk as smoothly as possible. If you do this without a rig you should get some funny looks from others. Don't take long steps.

When I find I have some "footsteps" in a shot it's usually from having my legs to straight. It's seems funny to have to practice walking smoothly with a stabilizer. After all, what's the stabilizer for? Actually the pros have learned the "walk" and it's second nature to them. The rest of us just have to learn from them.

Now that we've practiced and are much better we'll try the sled thing again with the camera zoomed about half way in. After shooting some footage and watching it we'll see where we need more practice.

Conclusion: There's a lot more to becoming a good steadicam operator than buying a good rig. It takes time but the shots are worth it.

Tery
Indicam

Terry,

"Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one."
Oops, in the near future i'm thinking to replace my xm2 to sony hc1.
Maybe a bad idea, when we talk about steady shots :(

Sorry, my english is not so good, what is Alien blood?

Finally, do you mean, when i observe this 3 advice and practice, i can make better result with JR other than GC?

Marton

Prech,

"Alien" blood is from the movie "Alien" where they cut into the dead alien's body during an examination and the blood (acid) dropped onto the floor and burned through it and about 4 more floors below it. It was a joke meaning that you don't want to spill any liquid as you walk.

------------

If you do any one of the three previously mentioned points you should get better results with any stabilizer. The fact that the GC is heavier than the JR is in point #1. #1. normally wouldn't apply to you as you don't want any more weight to carry around but if you did have a heavier camera on the JR, the shot would be more stable.

The biggest helps for you will be the things you can change. Since you have a JR and don't really want it heavier then you should concentrate on numbers 2 and 3.

An example...Charles P. tried out my rig a while back and he got some very good shots even though he's used to a much heavier system (point #1). He has perfected the 2nd and 3rd principles so the shot looked very good. I'll try and find it so it can be posted on my website.

In conclusion, if you work on the 2nd and 3rd principles then you can take better shots with any system that you use.


Tery
Indicam

Finally, i have my glidecam 2000 pro!
Here in Hungary i cannot buy a JR.
But i like this GC too.
It wasnt cheap (2 weddings here)
I make relaxation dvds, and i hope i can use it also for my movies.
Walking in the forest, etc.

Prech,

Congratulations on getting your 2000 Pro. You will be able to get some very good shots with it. There are loads of posts on this forum that will help you get the most out of your investment.

Just from a point of interest, what did the 2000 Pro cost you over in Hungry? If you can let me know, we can convert it to USD. We would like to know because we have a friend from Hungry and we hope to be doing business there soon.

Tery
Indicam

P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that.

So, i have my glidecam 2000, i enjoy it.
But i need a quick release mount.
My friend has a manfrotto 501 head, and he has a mount.
But my head is only 128RC, and i dont find a quick release mount for
this type. Is there any? What can i do?
There isn't much time to get my xm2 from the glidecam in wedding situation.

thx,
Marton

Terry:

the 2000 pro cost in hungary 106.000 HUF incl. every tax, etc.
about 450-500 usd.

"P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that."

HOW?

But my head is only 128RC, and i dont find a quick release mount for this type. Is there any? What can i do?

I believe a Bogen 128RC is a 3130 in the U.S. Does it look like this?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=5385&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

If so, then all you need is the Bogen 3299 quick release system. This uses the same QR plates as the one on the 3130.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=149686&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

Yes, my head looks exactly like this.
And 3299 is what i need!
Can i contact it to my gc2000, right?

thank you very much,
Marton

Yes, you should be able to screw it to your Glidecam. The bottom of the 3299 accepts a 1/4"-20 screw so just use the screw that you are using now to screw your camera to the Glidecam.