Hi,

At the moment I am using a Matrox RTX2 card to preview my CS5.03 HD timeline on a second LCD screen, the quality is outstanding.

I have now downloaded the CS5.5 suite and have read that the Matrox RTX2 card will not support this version. I haven't installed CS5.5 yet as I still have a couple of projects on the go. I rely on the LCD screen for my colour correction work and seeing the detail etc.

My question is, is there any other hardware that will let me preview a full HD timeline on a second LCD screen?

I have a nvidia G470 and Matrox RTX2 cards fitted. I also have a JVC CRT studio monitor, although this doesn't work with a HD timeline.

You can use Blackmagic Decklink Studio or Intensity Pro card, and connect it to your monitor via HDMI/DVI or if your LCD has component inputs, you could use those.

My nvidia G470 has HDMI output too, but this will only output a duplicate of the current screen on my second LCD. The Matrox card actually outputs the HD content without any interface. Does the Blackmagic do the same?

Yes. If you have HDMI input, just use HDMI cable. If not, you will need HDMI to DVI adapter.

If you want to work with 3 screen you will have to place a second (lesser) nvidia card from the same series to get your 3 monitor working.
If you only use 2 the present card is sufficient.

Not sure if have made my point clear.

I can output a second LCD screen from my nvidia G470 card and also use the second LCD as an extended desktop, no problem.The G470 has dual DVi output and a HDMI. I can move a preview window onto the second screen and fill the space if required, although the picture quality is not very good.

With my current RTX2 card I can see the entire 2nd LCD screen (Full HD screen) as a HD preview, no application interface, just pure HD footage straight from the timeline. The quality is excellent, just like watching a BluRay disk.

My problem is that the new version of CS5.5 does not support the RTX2 card and Matrox will not be supplying an update for this card, it is being discontinued. So when I switch to CS5.5 I will not be able to preview my footage on the Full HD screen.

What I would like to know, is there any other card that will output a Full HD display of my timeline, without any Premiere interface bits.

I use an HDTV connected to a HDMI port on my graphic card and set as a secondary display and there's an option in playback settings to use it as a full screen preview. Works as a charm.

I'm currently using only one graphic card in my editing system so I'm limited to one monitor and one HDTV for preview.

Yes, my card has that option too, but the quality from a full screen preview is not the same as viewing the timeline in Full HD. The difference is poles apart.

Vincent, you were quite clear for me. Blackmagic will do for you what you want.

Thanks Bart, I will look into the BlackMagic option

Yes you were quite clear to me either.
Two Nvidia cards will do the same for three monitor.

The Matrox card actually outputs the HD content without any interface. So does Premiere, natively. Just go to Playback settings and tell it to output to your second monitor. Full HD. No interface. You can do this without moving the preview window to the second monitor, which as you noted does not result in very good quality.
With my current RTX2 card I can see the entire 2nd LCD screen (Full HD screen) as a HD preview, no application interface, just pure HD footage straight from the timeline. The quality is excellent, just like watching a BluRay disk.

What I would like to know, is there any other card that will output a Full HD display of my timeline, without any Premiere interface bits.

This is exactly what Premiere does by itself, no hardware required. I must be missing something in your question.

... the quality from a full screen preview is not the same as viewing the timeline in Full HD. The difference is poles apart.

It should be the same. It is for me. Make sure you have Paused Resolution set to Full.

So does Premiere, natively. Just go to Playback settings and tell it to output to your second monitor. Full HD. No interface.

I thought this was the case -- but I don't see how to tell it to use, say, the HDMI output to display the realtime playback -- how does it know? Is PP making assumptions based on the HDMI handshaking that takes place between the display and the Nvidia G470?

But the bottom line is that PP will display all the "working" panels on your first monitor, and the realtime playback on an HDTV, all with no additional hardware, yes? So you'll get WYSIWYG, more or less. IOW, what you edit is what you'll see on a TV once you've exported to a blu-ray disk and played it back on a TV, yes?

That's how it works for me, yes. But if you use a third party preset, all the options may not be available. I haven't used Cineform since CS3, for example, but if you used a Cineform Preset to make a Cineform project, full-screen playback on the second monitor wasn't possible with NVidia cards. Your Playback Settings screen was Cineform's, not Premiere's, and the same options just weren't available.

Use the dropdown on your Program Monitor (or on the General Tab when creating a new project) and choose Playback Settings. You should have an option to play back on an external monitor, and your second monitor should show up on the dropdown list.

Vincent:

Are you looking to run an LCD HD television or an LCD computer monitor as your third screen? I recollect (perhaps incorrectly) that the RTX2 could give monitoring either through a DVI output (for hooking to a computer monitor or, with a converter dongle, to an HDMI port pn a tv or monitor) or via component cables to a high def tv.

Some of the suggestions here are for running a third computer monitor and some are for running a tv signal out to a tv. Assuming you want to use a tv (or a monitor in tv mode), the least expensive options are from Matrox and Black Magic Design

The Intensity Pro card is an older card but is still available from B&H for about $199 ($US). It has some timeline format limitations that got varying responses from DVinfo members. Some hated it, some loved it. A search of forum posts will turn up a number of discussions of it over the last few years. It would be a good thing to search those to find out whether a BMD card will have limitations that will enhance or interfere with the way you work.

BMD seems to be replacing the "Intensity Pro" with the new "Intensity Shuttle." This is also about $199, and can be run from either a USB 3.0 port or from a PCIe card slot. Do note that the Intensity Shuttle is only supported for certain motherboards. Blackmagic Design: Intensity (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/)

Have you looked at Matrox's MXO2-Mini? I have one which has worked very well for me with CS4 and 5. The MXO2 Mini might (or might not) be somewhat familiar to you as an RTX2 user, and also would allow you to continue using component video if that is what you have been doing. (It also does hdmi, which is how I use it.)There might be an upgrade package from Matrox. A good thimg to check.

At $459, the "Mini" is more than twice the price of the Black Magic Design products. The Mini has some screen calibration utilities which make the picture better on an external monitor and which I find very useful for what I do. The Mini probably would not be suitable for high-end color grading. For that, you would want say, a Dreamcolor monitor or an AJA card. That, of course, requires a budget that makes the cost of a "Mini" seem postively paltry.

CS 5.5 should be supported by the "mini." Matrox has announced that software will be available as a free upgrade for supporting CS 5.5. See: Matrox Announces Support for Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 Production Premium Software (http://www.matrox.com/video/en/press/releases/Adobe_Suite5_5/)

I have been holding off on upgrading from PPro CS5 to CS5.5 in part because I do not know when that free upgrade will be available from Matrox.

If memory serves, the RTX2 card is a very large one. The cards for the Black Magic units and the Matrox Mini will seem tiny. A bit mroe flexibiity there.

I am in the same predicament as Vincent and appreciate all the advice. I am planning on building a new computer for Premiere Pro 5.5. I also am spoiled with the my RT.X2 especially when viewing large split screen multi cam editing on my second 1920x1200 monitor.
From all your comments it looks like I will need to purchase a Blackmagic or Matrox MXO2 Mini (Expensive with the MAX for faster H.264 Editing) and hopefully will get the same high quality as Vincent and I are now experiencing with the the RT.X2. I would prefer DVI hookup for my second monitor instead of HDMI.
Sadly the RT.X2 will not support Premiere Pro 5.5.
I'm not interested in a third monitor setup but any other advice is much appreciated.

Remember also that software playback via Premiere playback options will not give you interlaced output - at least last time I checked, which was in CS3, so I might be wrong with the newer versions. Personally I would strongly suggest some kind of dedicated device. We are using Blackmagic cards (one old Decklink SP, and Intensity Pro), and apart from a few glitches with codecs, they seem to work pretty fine.

As for BMD Shuttle, I would strongly advise testing it - I remember reading about quite a lot of problems with this certain device.

I can't comment on new Matrox devices.

If you want real-time effects in Premiere, then also buy a decent nVidia CUDA card like 570GTX. They enormously speed up rendering and give a lot of real-time power.

Personally I would strongly suggest some kind of dedicated device.

But I don't think you have to have one. This article (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/does_premiere_cs5_achieve_the_impossible_dream_for_critical_evaluation_moni/) seems to indicate that PP cs5 et al. do the proper conversions to output the proper signal to, say, an HDMI port, to properly run an HDTV without the need for a dedicated device to create the proper signals.

That said, I've yet to try it. And I've been pretty unsuccessful in finding anyone who has. But I would love to hear from anyone who's done it. I'd like to know how well it works -- how well it gives WYSIWYG performance (compared to rendering to DVD or blu-ray and played back on an HDTV for example).

I am in the same predicament as Vincent and appreciate all the advice. I am planning on building a new computer for Premiere Pro 5.5. I also am spoiled with the my RT.X2 especially when viewing large split screen multi cam editing on my second 1920x1200 monitor.
From all your comments it looks like I will need to purchase a Blackmagic or Matrox MXO2 Mini (Expensive with the MAX for faster H.264 Editing) and hopefully will get the same high quality as Vincent and I are now experiencing with the the RT.X2. I would prefer DVI hookup for my second monitor instead of HDMI.
Sadly the RT.X2 will not support Premiere Pro 5.5.
I'm not interested in a third monitor setup but any other advice is much appreciated.

You do not need or want a BMD or Matrox device for what you want to do.

All YOU need is the nVidia "cuda" card which you should be getting, anyway. All of the suitable cards have the ability to output to two monitors. Almost all of them have two dvi ports. Even my older GTX260 has this. Just hook up second monitor and do a little configuration.

I run PPro CS5 with the timeline screen on my main monitor in front of me and run the four-way split multi-cam screen on an equally large second monitor to my right. My third screen, an hdtv, is to my left and runs a full screen view of whichever track is the selected one, and that display is the one that runs off the MXO2. That is why I have an MXO2 mini. You only want the two computer screens? You are better off without the Mini or a BMD device. You only need to add a device if: (a) you want a third screen run from something other than another video card or (b) you want monitoring on an interlaced tv screen. You are doing neither. So, you do not need another device.

That clear enough?

That said, I've yet to try it. And I've been pretty unsuccessful in finding anyone who has. But I would love to hear from anyone who's done it. I'd like to know how well it works -- how well it gives WYSIWYG performance (compared to rendering to DVD or blu-ray and played back on an HDTV for example).Then I guess you missed my last response to you above. As I said there, it works fine for me. If you just don't believe me, that's cool -- try it for yourself.

It's difficult to prove exactly how well it works unless you have the second monitor also connected directly to a Blu-Ray player and then you could A-B back and forth while playing the same segment direct from the timeline and then rendered to BD. But two different monitors playing back with two different sources at different times are tough to compare.

Jay's right. If you only use two monitors you don't need anything else.

Then I guess you missed my last response to you above. As I said there, it works fine for me. If you just don't believe me, that's cool -- try it for yourself.

No, no, I believe you. You and Jay are now two people who've said it works. That's what I meant when I said "pretty unsuccessful". When I wrote that I had exactly one positive response -- that being you. And a sample size of one is, um, not terribly encouraging, but it's also far, far better than zero. That's what I meant, even if I didn't get that meaning across very well. Sigh...

I totally get what you are saying, no worries. But I think it all depends on how you look at it. Zoran, Jay and I all say we've done this and it works fine. Vincent says he's done it and he isn't happy with it. No one has said it isn't possible. So you have 75% positive responses to the native ability, which I think is pretty good.

I've had threads up for weeks where I didn't get four useful responses, so consider yourself blessed ;-).

Really, just give it a try.

BTW, this forum is rife with stories about not only how unnecessary Matrox is for Premiere for most users, but how many different ways it can break it. Just do a search and all will become clear -- for most users it is a silly waste of money.

OK, problem has now been solved, thank you to all that have given suggestions.

My G470 has two DVi ports, I hooked up the second monitor up to the second port and got an extended desktop. However, as suggested, I changed the Playback settings to output Full HD to the second LCD screen, and hey presto, I have a crystal clear picture, every bit as good as that seen previously from the Matrox card. I do not have any reason to keep the Matrox card, other than for editing previous productions in CS5 or CS4 which used the card for Chroma Key etc.

I have Premiere CS5.5 up and running now, no problem. The Matrox card is still fitted but not active in CS5.5

btw. I installed CS5.5 as a clean install, but it didn't delete the CS5 Production suite, I now have both suites installed. I will leave as is for the time being - just in case I run into problems.

Once again thank you all for taking the time to help me solve the problem and for your patience.

Great News Vincent Jay and Others. Good explanation Jay if I decide to use a third monitor.
Now all I need is to find is an alternative to my Break Out Box (BOB)?

II would prefer DVI hookup for my second monitor instead of HDMI.
Sadly the RT.X2 will not support Premiere Pro 5.5.


Using CS5 or CS5.5 with a Nvidia G470 card fitted, which has Cuda for the Mecury Playback Engine, you do not need the Matrox card or BOB. Just a good second LCD monitor. My whole system now works far better than with the RTX2 card and I can work directly with EX files, no problem.

For those that use CS5, being able to see full HD and have color accurate preview through a secondary port on a graphics card is a huge plus. It eliminates the need for a dedicated output device. The problem with previous versions of Premiere is that the color accuracy of he YUV--RGB conversion was not done correctly. Now it is. This link was posted earlier in the thread but is worth reading if you have not already.

ProVideo Coalition.com: TecnoTur by Allan Tépper (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/does_premiere_cs5_achieve_the_impossible_dream_for_critical_evaluation_moni/)

Now all I need is to find is an alternative to my Break Out Box (BOB)?

An alternative BOB for what purpose(s)?

The Breakout Box (BOB) is still handy for analogue capture, I use it to capture cameras LCD screens via the video out port on a camera (using a Yellow AV plug). Maybe one day I might also digitize my old VHS tapes. Other than that I have no other use for it.

Thanks for the link Brian, it was a useful item.

In a minor technical note, there is some suggestions of a paid upgrade, though Wayne at Matrox says he will hopefully provide more info on X.2 support in the near future.

I personally would think that there can't be too much to the Matrox X.2 drivers supporting CS5.5 as it isn't a complete rewrite of the software and how it interfaces with everything else (such as a 3rd party card). It may be as simple as checking that the current drivers still work and making a minor tweak to the installer.

See Matrox RTX2 User Forum :: View topic - Premiere cs5.5 (http://forum.matrox.com/rtx2/viewtopic.php?t=9290)

Andrew

You're welcome Oliver. I'm glad you were able to get 5.5 up and running.

The BOB for me is useful for VHS tape. I will be keeping my RT.X2 with CS3 so I will use it whenever I need to capture analogue material. Now for the hard part building the new CS5.5 system. Thanks again everyone for all the clarity on the usage of two screens.

At one time the Matrox cards had some great preset filters, i.e. movie effects etc. Most of the filter effects have been dropped and given what Premiere CS5/ CS5.5. can do with a nVidia card, I don't see any point in upgrading the drivers for the Matrox card. RIP RTX2

The BOB for me is useful for VHS tape. I will be keeping my RT.X2 with CS3 so I will use it whenever I need to capture analogue material. Now for the hard part building the new CS5.5 system. Thanks again everyone for all the clarity on the usage of two screens.

The problem I had was that I had always used a Matrox Sequence and never needed to look at the Playback Settings, and of course when you are working with a Matrox sequence then the Matrox driver replaces the Adobe Playback settings, so I never saw the option to select a second monitor. Thanks to all the tips on this forum I have now found the settings and am now using them without any problem.

Greg, I think you will find your workflow much easier using a Nvidia card - at least I am not getting so many crashes now. With the Matrox card I had a problem doing a multi camera edit. All is well now.

"The Breakout Box (BOB) is still handy for analogue capture, I use it to capture cameras LCD screens via the video out port on a camera (using a Yellow AV plug). Maybe one day I might also digitize my old VHS tapes. Other than that I have no other use for it."

Here's another reason that you do not need to consider an MXO2 mini. The "mini" also has a BOB which can be used for both timeline monitoring and analogue/hdmi I/O. Since you still will have your old system running --- tho it might get a bit crowded and warm in the editing room with two systems running --- the RT.X2's BOB supplants the other reason to get an MXO2.

One can get a Mini with Matrox's "MAX" accelerated encoding hardware, which basically doubles the price of the Mini. But if all one wants is the accelerated encoding functions, there is a separate small "Comrpess HD" card that Matrox sells.

Remember to check under Edit - Preferences to select the Player. I have Blackmagic Intensity and Cineform on my machine so 3 different players are available under this setting (Adobe is the third). The Edit-Preferences-Player selection is particularly important for the Preview window as it seems to follow the Edit selection while the Program window follows the Sequence setting. You can have a mismatch between your project settings and the Preview window so automatic switching between Preview and Program does not occur properly on an external monitor connected to the second output on the video card.

Good advice.

And, for those who get an MXO2 Mini to feed monitoring via HDMI to a tv or monitor, you also need to check your audio hardware and playback settings. With HDMI monitoring from a PPro timeline, the Matrox unit defaults to sending audio out throught the hdmi to the tv rather than through the sound card. You go into the playback settings for the source and timeline monitors in PPro, select the audio tab, and check the box for using the system sound card if that is how you want to monitor audio.

one thing you guys are missing is that when you buy a MXO2 mini, you also get the Matrox Mpeg2 Codec ! thats right - you can access your old captured material on a mac or PC... if you have a lot of material in the Mpeg2 codec, the mini becomes a no brainer.

the MAX h264 encoder really flies and produces very high quality output, especially for its low bit rate. it also has noise reduction, hardware scaling... did I say its really fast ?

I believe that the Codec is a free download from Matrox and does not require any Matrox hardware to run.

Matrox Video - Support - Matrox VFW Software Codecs Downloads (http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/version1.0/)

Also, if you want only the MAX H264 encoding functions, Matrox offers the "Compress HD" card which is still available according to this link from DVinfo sponsor, Videoguys:

Videoguys.com - Matrox CompressHD (http://www.videoguys.com/Item/Matrox+CompressHD/448434D4.aspx)

While videoguys lists the card as being for Macs, drivers for PCs are available on the Matrox Website. Note they are specific to CS5 Media Encoder (apparently no support for CS 5.5 yet).

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/compresshd/system/

I suspect CS4 drivers must be somewhere on the Matrox site.

I believe that the Codec is a free download from Matrox and does not require any Matrox hardware to run.
Matrox Video - Support - Matrox VFW Software Codecs Downloads (http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/version1.0/)

PC yes, mac no. the hardware basically acts as a dongle.

Also, if you want only the MAX H264 encoding functions, Matrox offers the "Compress HD" card which still seems to be available ]

the compress HD is $500. a mini max is $859 so its cheaper to get one with it built in. You also can put a PCie card into a laptop where you can use the speed boost the most.

"PC yes, mac no. the hardware basically acts as a dongle."

Oh, joy. What a pain for Mac owners. Missed that because I'm using the Mini on a PC and didn't check the Mac software downloads before posting.

"the compress HD is $500. a mini max is $859 so its cheaper to get one with it built in. You also can put a PCie card into a laptop where you can use the speed boost the most."

All true if you also want the "Mini" for external monitoring display. Note that most of the folks posted in this thread want only to feed a second computer monitor on a PC rather than what the Mini excels at, which is feeding a third monitor or providing a YUV display. I got the Mini for running third screen monitoring from PPro and Avid MC5 timelines on a YUV display which, with the built-in screem calibration utility, allows me to do reasonably good color matching. (I do multi-cam event shoots with up to seven cameras some of which require matching in post). The color matching I do is good enough for my customers but I have no illusions that this would be suitable for the likes of PBS or theatrical releases.

For those who do very much H.264 encoding, the Max functions will be very useful. In my case, the Max functions go largely unused. My customers all still want DVDs. So far, I've only done BluRay versions for myself. I have yet to receive even an inquiry about putting video into the mobile formats that the Max functions offer. The few folks hereabouts who want mobile-device video seem to want only downloadable stuff from commercial sources and others.

I'm generating h264 just about every day. the quality of the h264 encoding is really good, better then the slower software options :)... way better. DVD's have simply almost completely gone away. if I burn a DVD disc, its to put a really large h264 file on it, including stuff like HD TC burns for clients to log their shots. I get modest amounts of mobile, but huge amounts of web including often making 2 or 3 versions of everything. with this sort of volume the MAX encoder has become a critical part of gear for me.

Just to say, thanks for the information on this thread. I have bought a 27 inch Samsung UE27D5000 HDTV as a playback monitor connected via the HDMI output of my graphics card, and have assigned it on the playback settings of my program monitor as recommended. The image quality is excellent, far superior to maximising the monitor window on the second monitor of a dual monitor system. I suspect many graphics cards will allow this. Mine is a ATI Radeon 5800 HD series card.

Editing is really sped up by the ability to see the edited segments in HD in real time.

Neil

Always glad to hear from someone when things have gone well. Too many times (in other threads) you never hear back and wonder if they ever saw your answers.

Andrew

Just to say, thanks for the information on this thread. I have bought a 27 inch Samsung UE27D5000 HDTV as a playback monitor connected via the HDMI output of my graphics card, and have assigned it on the playback settings of my program monitor as recommended. The image quality is excellent, far superior to maximising the monitor window on the second monitor of a dual monitor system. I suspect many graphics cards will allow this. Mine is a ATI Radeon 5800 HD series card.

Editing is really sped up by the ability to see the edited segments in HD in real time.

Neil

Good to hear of your success. A couple of extra suggestions:

First, in Encore, you have playback settings similar to those in PPro. If you enable playback to the other card output, so you can display Encore timelines and disk previews to your HDTV as well. This may depend on your graphics display card, but I am able to do this on my system with an nVidia GTX260 graphics card as well as through my MXO2 mini.

Second, you mentioned "editing is really sped up . . ." If you are using CS 5 or 5.5 and have any money left in the equipment budget, you may want to replace the ATI 5800 card with a "CUDA" based nVidia card in order to get the very significant benefits of the hardware accelerated Mercury Playback Engine (MPE). When I checked a couple of weeks ago, the 1 gig nVidia GTS450 chipset cards (a basic CUDA/MPE card) were running between $110 and $120 ($US @ newegg.com), so not terribly expensive as cards go. I believe the GTS450 cards are roughly the same size as the ATI 5800 series PCIe cards, so they should fit in your case. To make a GTS450 work with CS5 and 5.5, you will have to add the card name to a text file. (This is the so called "hack" which is nothing more than typing an additional name into a plain text list.) Hardware MPE makes a big difference in playback of HD video from PPro timelines. In making this suggestion, I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are running a desktop editing computer and not a laptop with a mobile 5800 graphics card/chipset. Obviously, if you are using a laptop, this suggestion is not relevant to your situation.

I am using CS5 on a desktop system. I had been under the impression that MPE compatible graphics cards were extremely expensive so good news that an affordable alternative is available. For my current projects, I probably don't need the MPE card as editing and scrubbing through the timeline seems very smooth on the current system. That may change depending on the complexity of future projects.

Also helpful to know about Encore previews, thanks for the information.

Neil

Nvidia GTX580 graphics card has 2 x DVIs and 1 x HDMI.

Going from an ATI HD 4890 and CS4 to GTX580 and CS5, and requiring a third monitor the Nvidia card gave me this option rather than to get bogged down in Matrox solutions. I try to avoid add on hardware when it comes to Adobe.

:)

Claire:

I did not know that the 580 could run 3 simultaneous displays. The previous models of nVidia cards would only allow 2 active outputs at a time (i.e., 2 DVI or 1 DVI with the HDMI).

Would you please provide more details. I am curious if this would work for me.

For instance, which 580 card are you using? How have you cabled to the screens and what kinds of screens are you using? (Are you running 2 computer monitors from DVI and an HDTV off an HDMI port? Three computer monitors?)

Are you spanning your computer desktop across the three screens or are you feeding separate displays to each or, maybe, spanning across two screens and using the third as your timeline monitor? I am asking because I do a lot of multi-cam work and find it useful to have my main editing screen in front of me, the 4-way multi-cam window displayed full screen on a second monitor on one side and, on the other side, a full screen timeline playback monitor with an HDTV showing a YUV display of the edit. I have been looking at a video card upgrade and am curious if I can do this without an MXO2 mini.

Do you calibrate the monitors? If so, what do you use for calibration?