Hello,

I am looking at purchasing a portable recording device to be used with DSLRs as well as other video cameras.

I wanted to ask DR-100 users about how much audio drift they have seen with the Tascam DR-100 units?

My search has led me to the Tascam HD-P2 unit as well because it has the ability to sync to a video output from a camera. But this unit is larger and more than twice the price.

If the DR-100 unit does not have that much drift (only 12 min of record time with DSLRs) I was thinking buying it with the Oade mod to improve the preamps.

If the DR-100 does have a lot of drift then after purchasing Plural Eyes & the Oade mod I am around the price of the HD-P2 unit.

How much better, same or worse with the DR-100 with the Oade mod be than:

- In camera (EX-1 class of camera)
- Tascam HD-P2
- DR-100 without the Oade mod

Thanks for your input!

I havent seen any drift using my DR-100 with a Canon 7d and a GH2. My longest interview segments are about 10 mins - but still fine.

Hello,

I am looking at purchasing a portable recording device to be used with DSLRs as well as other video cameras.

I wanted to ask DR-100 users about how much audio drift they have seen with the Tascam DR-100 units?

My search has led me to the Tascam HD-P2 unit as well because it has the ability to sync to a video output from a camera. But this unit is larger and more than twice the price.

If the DR-100 unit does not have that much drift (only 12 min of record time with DSLRs) I was thinking buying it with the Oade mod to improve the preamps.

If the DR-100 does have a lot of drift then after purchasing Plural Eyes & the Oade mod I am around the price of the HD-P2 unit.

How much better, same or worse with the DR-100 with the Oade mod be than:

- In camera (EX-1 class of camera)
- Tascam HD-P2
- DR-100 without the Oade mod

Thanks for your input!

Tim,

I have experience with the EX1 and the DR-100, though not with the mod you are talking about. I have not had any drift with the DR-100. I have with the Zoom H4n though.

I really like the audio on the DR-100, much better than the EX1. The DR-100 also has an internal backup battery for extended field recording times.

What does the mod that you referred to add to the DR-100 and how much does it cost?

Daniel Weber

The Oade Brothers do a few different mods you can pick from that upgrade and replace inputs and/or circuitry in the recorder. You can go to oade.com to see what they do.

Tim,
It sounds like you're wanting to record separate audio and sync it with your video track, right? With short segments like yours the drift will probably be extremely little, if any. If you record segments of 20-30 minutes or higher you'll experience a bit more drift. Typically I get about 1/2 second of drift for an hour or more segment. I have recorded with different brands of camera and different recorders and that seems to be pretty consistent. For a 12 minute segment the drift will probably only be few frames which wouldn't even be noticeable to most people. The good thing is that with any digital device the drift will be constant and easily corrected. I use Vegas and it's a breeze to sync sources and adjust for any drift.

Thanks for your replies.

Sounds like I will be fine for DSLR work. Glad to hear your impression is better than the internal EX-1 recording which fine for a lot of uses.

I was thinking Plural Eyes for any drift correction. Does Vegas has the same type of correction built in?

I am not aware of any sync plug-in that are normally included with Vegas.
I don't think 'Plural Eyes' will constantly adjust for drift, unless the file(s) were split-up into multible events.

I am not aware of any sync plug-ins that are normally included with Vegas.
I don't think 'Plural Eyes' will constantly adjust for drift, unless the file(s) were split-up into multiple events.

I don't think 'Plural Eyes' will constantly adjust for drift, unless the file(s) were split-up into multiple events.
Can anyone confirm this? I was thinking of getting PE.

The new Final Cut Pro will have a plural eyes type thing built in!

If you have an EX1 class camera, and only need 2 channels, then that's all you need. The EX1 has the best audio I've ever heard out of a camera. Drift won't be an issue unless you are trying to record music, and blend recordings from 2 different sources. Visually it won't be an issue, but almost immediately you'll hear phase issues. So always record all the audio used on one recorder (for music). I don't know if Oade would do a DR-100. If he doesn't, try Busman Audio. They do mods too, and better.

I am not aware of any sync plug-ins that are normally included with Vegas.
I don't think 'Plural Eyes' will constantly adjust for drift, unless the file(s) were split-up into multiple events.

I thought this was the purpose of Plural Eyes. Give it a reference track and it will adjust the main track to match the reference track.

I don't < think > Plural Eyes' will constantly adjust for drift, unless the file(s) were split-up into multiple events.
I could be wrong on this, but I was told by a reliable source it won't time stretch, + or -, to compensate for drift. maybe someone with experience with PEs can clarify this or correct my misconception.

Pluraleyes won't adjust for drift, it just syncs the tracks at the start. I've been using it for several years now, at various times with an H4n, DR-100, or both, syncing with 5D source material and haven't had any drift problems with either that were the fault of the recorders. Early on there were some issues with the 5D's 30p frame rate vs. FCP's interpretation of audio files at 29.97, but the problem was specific to FCP's default project configuration and could be corrected easily - and it's largely irrelevant now that the DSLRs are all shooting at 29.97/23.976, also not relevant to the EX1.

I thought this was the purpose of Plural Eyes. Give it a reference track and it will adjust the main track to match the reference track.


You are thinking of VocALign. Check it out:

VocALign Demo - ADR made simple! on Vimeo

Thanks for the video Chad. Looks like a nice plugin.

I went to the Pural Eyes website and watched a how to video for Dual Eyes and "correct for drift" is a menu choice so it is made to fix drifting audio. Syncing is easy, drift correction is not. BTW, drifitng audio is not so related to framerate but moreso related to recording crystals and two different machines running at slightly different timings.

...Typically I get about 1/2 second of drift for an hour or more segment. I have recorded with different brands of camera and different recorders and that seems to be pretty consistent. For a 12 minute segment the drift will probably only be few frames which wouldn't even be noticeable to most people. ...

Careful with using "most people" as your standards. For broadcast work +/- 0.5 frame (no more than 1/2 frame off for sound to either lead or lag picture) is a common limit. "A few frames", even a single full frame, is completely out-of-spec and unacceptable.

I went to the Pural Eyes website and watched a how to video for Dual Eyes and "correct for drift" is a menu choice so it is made to fix drifting audio. Syncing is easy, drift correction is not. BTW, drifitng audio is not so related to framerate but moreso related to recording crystals and two different machines running at slightly different timings.

Interesting to know, I've never seen that option in Pluraleyes, looks like it's only available in DualEyes.

I know when discussing drift the usual culprit is the timing of different hardware, but for a while there was a significant drift problem with 5D footage that was specifically related to frame rates and the way FCP interpreted imported audio files based on the project frame rate. It seemed like a lot of people assumed it was a problem with the audio hardware at the time. Now that it's solved though I've done tests with both the H4n and DR100 where I recorded music to the clip length limit on the camera and then synced the audio and there's not even any sign of phasing by the end of the clip, let alone a frame or more of drift - so I'd say drift isn't a problem within that specific time limit. I'm only shooting on the 5D now though, so I haven't had a chance to do tests beyond the 12 minute limit of the camera.

That is interesting. One would think Dual eyes and Plural Eyes would offer the same features.

It is good to know the DR-100 has be created with a mind towards recording timings of video cameras. I would not be interested in Plural Eyes if it does not drift correction. It is easy to sync audio in an audio program (I use Sonar) which has sample level adjustments.

When fixing drift you are taking one of the files and stretching/compressing one audio file to match another. The act of doing this alters the sound quality. I would not recommend trying to fix drift for the purpose of matching music recorded to multiple recorders. Really, if one is just exchanging good audio for scratch audio recorded on a camera, drift is rarely enough to see a difference as it relates to hearing the voice and seeing the mouth move. If drift gets too bad you make a cut and nudge the file. But to time stretch an audio file introduces artifacts, and in the case of music will cause phase issues, especially if you are blending files from different recorders.

I'm just saying to be careful with any drift correction process. And if recording music make sure all tracks are recorded on the same machine.

I agree and what you say is true Chad but I thought this was the magic of the Pluraleyes program and why everybody seems to be so excited about it. I thought it did correct for drift without issues.

I need to contact the company to see what the software is designed for because I just don't see $150 to only line clips up.

The new Final Cut Pro will have a plural eyes type thing built in!

If you have an EX1 class camera, and only need 2 channels, then that's all you need. The EX1 has the best audio I've ever heard out of a camera. Drift won't be an issue unless you are trying to record music, and blend recordings from 2 different sources. Visually it won't be an issue, but almost immediately you'll hear phase issues. So always record all the audio used on one recorder (for music). I don't know if Oade would do a DR-100. If he doesn't, try Busman Audio. They do mods too, and better.

I agree and what you say is true Chad but I thought this was the magic of the Pluraleyes program and why everybody seems to be so excited about it. I thought it did correct for drift without issues.

I need to contact the company to see what the software is designed for because I just don't see $150 to only line clips up.

This is a big deal to me, I record musicians on occassion and if all PE does is line up clips, that's limiting. My problem is that I cannot tell when instruments, certain instruments, fall slightly out of sync. When I show it to the violinist, SHE can tell, I can't. Singing or dialogue is easy, but instruments are difficult. Please let us know you results Tim.

The question has been answered Brian. Plural Eyes is for lining up clips, not for fixing drift. Like I said, drift isn't an issue unless you mix audio recorded on more than one recorder. If you record music, do it on one recorder with enough tracks to cover what you need. The drift isn't an issue visually. You can always just cut the audio clip and nudge it a couple frames if need be.

Here's a guy talking about Dual Eyes and fixing drift: Review: Singular Software DualEyes | AusCam Online - Write | Light | Shoot | Edit | Distribute (http://auscamonline.com/issue/october-2010/article/review-singular-software-dualeyes)

I need to contact the company to see what the software is designed for because I just don't see $150 to only line clips up.

It's not 'only' lining clips up, but that's the primary thing it is designed for - and I suppose the value depends on what kind of shooting you do. If you're doing something like long take concert shoots where you basically need to line up a single audio track with one or two video clips then it's probably not worth it. But if you end up with 50-100 clips from a day's shoot and they all need to be synced to audio or one another it'll pay for itself on the first job you use it for.

Good point Even. I see the value for that situation.

...For broadcast work +/- 0.5 frame (no more than 1/2 frame off for sound to either lead or lag picture) is a common limit. "A few frames", even a single full frame, is completely out-of-spec and unacceptable.

Those are the standards, but if I remember well, at Berklee, in audio postproduction class, they teach kids that, for motion picture dialogue, audio lag of 2-3 frames is still acceptable (but never the other way round). This makes some sense, when one thinks about it. Sound always travels much slower than light. At 14m distance (about 40ft), sound is already delayed by the equivalent of one frame. Our brains are ready to accept sound that arrives a bit later than image because of our lifetime experience with this. Keep in mind, though, this refers fairly specifically to dialogue. Other types of sounds are less forgiving.

And with drift, it's easy to fix when we are just lining up audio with video. You just cut the audio on the timeline, then slide it 1 or 2 frames in the direction it needs to go, then drag the edge of the audio clip (not the whole clip) to fill those frames. Sometimes I'll put a cross-fade where the edges meet if there is a click sound at the cut point.

But if you have audio of music recorded on 2 different recorders, the drift will be heard as phasing, and simply can't be corrected enough for the audio to sound unaffected. I have made the mistake if recording a stereo mic with the camera, then trying to blend that with a board feed recorded into a DR-680, or Sony D-50, but it just doesn't work for long record times. You must record all the used tracks on one recorder, then use the camera audio only for lining up files. After that you mute the camera audio.