Has anyone had problems with tape drop out on any Z5 E purchased in Britian or Europe in the last 3 months? I am recording in 1080i 25P and I have been using new Sony tapes (DVC Premium and HDM-63G) purchased at different times so I think it unlikely to be a tape issue. I also ran at least 15 tapes following the theory of new heads needing time to get 'used being heads' but still had problems. Sony has now replaced the camera with another new one. I have only run 2 tapes and the same problem seems to be happening. Is this just me being unlucky or could there be a bad batch of cameras?? Thanks for any feedback

be aware:

there's a bad batch of sony tapes -

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/services/files/servicesprograms/prodnoticehdvminidvtaperepprogram.pdf

i doubt very much it's a bad 'batch' of cameras.

are you mixing tapes? isn't dvc panny? if so by mixing tapes (old?) it could well be dirty heads.

Hi thanks for your reply. I am just trying to eliminate all possiblities hence the bad batch of cameras question It doesn't look like my type of tape is in the 'bad batch' Sorry but I am not familiar with the term 'panny'. Sony didn't seem to think using a premium tape and a HDV tape was mixing tape. Also on the newest camera I have used 2 similar tapes but the same problem occurs. They also cleaned and looked at the heads on the first camera and sent it back saying they couldn't find the problem which then persisted.. Is there any way this is software related rather than tape or head related. Thanks

panny = panasonic.

so, if you've had 2 cameras with the same problem then i think you might well have found a camera problem - though i haven't read of any other people posting similar problems....

do the dropouts also appear on playback in the camera?

do they fall at the same spot every time or are they random?

Hi again Thanks for the clarification on 'Panny'. All the tapes I used were Sony. I can't be 100% sure but I think the problem is mainly but not entirely on playback as I replayed one of the drop out tapes on the 'latest' camera and drop outs are in different places. I have been capturing entire tapes and I am getting 4 to 8 drop outs per tape and the drop outs seem to be in different places as well as the original places and of varying lengths... Any ideas??

Just out of curiosity, do you see the dropouts though the LCD on your camera or is it once it's ingested?

Hi. I have seen the drop outs on the LCD (but that I don't always catch them) and these drop outs are confirmed when capturing to FCP. A long take gets split into separate clips with anywhere between 2 and 10 frames missing between clips and if recaptured it can happen in new places. A few tapes have one or two drop outs the worst 8 to 10. I still need to test the newest camera to see if it's worse or better. I would really like to trouble shoot this issue as I have heard so many good things about the Z5 which is why I bought it. Thanks for any insights. Robb

I had a huge problem out of the blue with my Z5. I was using consumer Sony DV tapes, which I'd used without problems for two years (more like 10 years if you include using them with the PD150/170). The time code kept disappearing, along with the video, on playback. But when I fast forwarded, I could see the image, though.

I took the camera in for service. Sony could find nothing wrong with it after days and days of testing.

We then used the same batch of tapes in a brand new Z5. Within five minutes it indicated the heads were dirty. I shifted to more expensive HDV tapes and haven't had any problems since.

Thankfully, we also record everything to CF card on the MRC1 otherwise it would have been a disaster.

Hi. Thanks for your post which sadly confirms but doesn't explain what the core problem is here. I also had a PD150 for 8 years with barely a hiccough and one of the reasons I bought a Z5 is that I am going on location in the Himalayas and won't be able to down load CF cards as I will be away from power sources for some time. 20/30 hours of CF cards is going to stretch my budget. After reading your post and the hearing how your problem occured out of the blue is quite disturbing as I don't know how I can trust this type camera to be reliable when I really need it because the cause of the problem is still unclear. I was on a shoot filming (with the first camera) using HDV tapes last week and I got just a many drop outs as with the premium tapes.

panny = panasonic.

so, if you've had 2 cameras with the same problem then i think you might well have found a camera problem - though i haven't read of any other people posting similar problems....

do the dropouts also appear on playback in the camera?

do they fall at the same spot every time or are they random?
Hi again
So if this is a camera problem. Do you think it's hardware or software? I tried testing again today and I captured the same new tape 3 times to see what happened. I was able to see the 'freezes' in the LCD and it dropped out in the one place 3 times a 3 others completely randomly. I have to talk to Sony tomorrow and would like to be as clear as I can about the issue. Thanks for any feedback Robb

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear of your plight and thanks to Leslie for posting the notice from Sony.

Most drops in relation to backing and oxide cohesion are caused by extreme changes in temperature and/or humidity. Those conditions of operation and extremes will be specified and published somewhere..

If you are storing tapes, either prior to use or after use, try to store them in an environment which is cool and of average humidity - but possibly more important one which is constant as large and sudden swings in the environmental conditions will be a catalyst to some types of tape. So if you are going up mountains, to the beach or into the tropics, I would consider the way in which you store your tapes for the journey and the shoot.

Before use I pre wind all tapes by spooling them to the end and back again, this way the tape is retensioned to the camera. I then apply an air duster to the camera's tape mechanism once I'm ready to go.

An old VT method, but it's served me pretty well over the last couple of years I've been using the Z5 with DV Premium tapes.

I've had the occasional drop - one tape in ten I would estimate with a loss of a frame or two in one section only - nothing more. The scene was often recovered on recapture possibly suggesting it was a particle of dust on the tape replay rather than an oxide issue at recording - although it has happened, but rarely.

As for the HDV63s I've not seen any noticable difference in reproduced quality to begin using this type, but this is only subjective opinion without any objective assessment.

The convenience of tape for archiving is without comparison, but I guess if you are shooting in extreme environments then personally I would leave my tapes behind and use solid state.

:)

"Women don't hit harder, they just hit lower! "

and bang on target! completely overlooked 'environmental' factor - storage, shooting, etc., which can prove fraught with problems if not taken into account, especially humidity.

i too shoot exclusively with sony dv premium - and in many years can count the dropouts on one hand. (i never use the camera as a deck, and never playback tape in the field). this has been true for my last 4 cameras (150/170/v1p/z5p)

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear of your plight and thanks to Leslie for posting the notice from Sony.

Most drops in relation to backing and oxide cohesion are caused by extreme changes in temperature and/or humidity. Those conditions of operation and extremes will be specified and published somewhere..

If you are storing tapes, either prior to use or after use, try to store them in an environment which is cool and of average humidity - but possibly more important one which is constant as large and sudden swings in the environmental conditions will be a catalyst to some types of tape. So if you are going up mountains, to the beach or into the tropics, I would consider the way in which you store your tapes for the journey and the shoot.

Before use I pre wind all tapes by spooling them to the end and back again, this way the tape is retensioned to the camera. I then apply an air duster to the camera's tape mechanism once I'm ready to go.

An old VT method, but it's served me pretty well over the last couple of years I've been using the Z5 with DV Premium tapes.

I've had the occasional drop - one tape in ten I would estimate with a loss of a frame or two in one section only - nothing more. The scene was often recovered on recapture possibly suggesting it was a particle of dust on the tape replay rather than an oxide issue at recording - although it has happened, but rarely.

As for the HDV63s I've not seen any noticable difference in reproduced quality to begin using this type, but this is only subjective opinion without any objective assessment.

The convenience of tape for archiving is without comparison, but I guess if you are shooting in extreme environments then personally I would leave my tapes behind and use solid state.

:)

I don't think my current problem can be environmental as I just bought a batch of Premium and HVD tapes less than 6 weeks ago. My question is this. Is the 1080i 25P mode the real problem. I shot hours of footage on Sony Excellence tape in the dv cam mode on my PD 150 in India at high altitude, in dusty environments. I replayed the tapes on camera, replayed them to log them then captured clips and sometimes did it again . I have stored these at least 150 tapes in a moderately damp house in moist Ireland. I wanted to recapture something I shot 5 years ago a a month or so ago. Not a problem . No spooling, no deck. Just my PD 150. Now I buy this lovely new Z5. Set it to 1080i 25P and every single tape ( Around 20 to date) has a minimum of 4 major drop outs. A concert project toally blown as a huge gap in the middle of two songs ! A irrepalceable visit to Ireland by the Dalai Lama with gaps when he's saying amazing stuff gone. It looks like I got a 'lemon' camera but not only that I just got a replacement camera from Sony that's doing almost exactly the same thing. Apologies for the emotional rant but you can't fix a problem if you can't identify it. I really appreciate the posts and comments. Perhaps I have asked a question that can't really be answered.. Thanks again

I have never seen a dropout on the LCD even when I get the very rare dropout. I use Panasonic tapes and never have issues but the tape is now just a backup. Robb, this is not an answer to your problem, but stretch your budget and get the cards. The cards really are reliable, download in 5 minutes and give you piece of mind. I would contact Sony and see what they say. There is obviously a big problem. I heard someone mention that Sony is able to recover some bad tapes, maybe you can give that a shot if you have irreplaceable footage. Trust me, get the MRC-1 unit and cards. Good luck and keep us up to date on how this plays out for you.

Hi Thanks for your reply. Yes cards seem inevitable but it would be nice if the tapes really were back up too. Sony is taking another look at my camera in the next few days and hopefully they can find what the problem is. I'll keep in touch about it. My son was using a 60D as a 2nd camera so it looks like the worst losses may have been covered..

please get back to us with the results.....

Hey Robb; I'm based in Galway myself and got a Z5 three months ago. Ordered it from England and haven't had a problem with it yet.

I'd agree with getting the MRC1-k and a few CF cards. I do a lot of weddings and online commercials and always shoot on both tape and card at the same time; can never be too safe!

Let us know how you get on, it's strange that the same problem cropped up on both cameras.

Thanks for getting in touch. So glad to hear your camera is ok. Sony have the second camera now and I hope they are going to find the problem. I'll post an update if and when I get some info from them. Robb
(Irish and Tibetan Documentary Films: Six Degree Productions: (http://www.sixdegreeproductions.com))

Hi This is just to let you all know that I have been contacted by several people who have been experiencing exactly the same problems with drop out. so I think we talking about a bad batch of cameras now. Sony is now replacing the MD board, heads and deck on my brand new camera. It is now over three months since I bought the original camera and as you can imagine I am not happy about the unbelievable way I have been treated. I will update again when I get the camera back.

any news?

curious

Hi. Unbelievable delays but after almost 4 month the replacement camera is supposed to be on its way back to me at the moment. I am hoping it is fixed. I will test it and report back. I have lost faith in so called Prime Support and think Sony should have had the decency to admit to this probelm and recall all the cameras with this issue and not try to avoid responsibilty but I guess big business doesn't think people like us count. I have contacted consumer advocacy agencies to see if the can help in any way. I haven't heard recently from the other poeple who have similar problems about their progress..

I also have a lot of dropouts on my Z5... And also only use Sony DV Premiums (DVM60ME)
I have not reported the problem tho and i already have this camera for more that 2 years now.

Just would like to add to report a specific finding with Adobe and HDV Split:

I was using HDV Split and recently found it reporting (and looking) as though I was getting the odd drop (once in every 4 or 5 tapes) using HDVS via Adobe CS4.

Subsequent re capturing the same tapes via Adobe CS5.5 (they now have the scene detect section working), I am seeing no drops with the same tapes.

In my experience the M2T file created by HDV Split causes some issues with the 64 bit workings of Adobe CS5.5 (Runtime Errors) and you are advised to recapture via the CS5.5 capture screen.

Not saying this is your problem, but some might like to be aware of this if they are using HDV Split and Adobe CS4.

:)

Thanks for the info.

Hi This is just to let you Sony is sending me yet another camera after the same problem of multiple drop outs happened on second "repaired one". Another person contacted me with the same issue on a camera bought in New York in the last few months. Could I be third time lucky!? I will let you know............

Jeez, this is really taking the piss at this stage.

robb sent me a picture of his timeline.... with this explanation:

Below is a view of the timeline on 3 different captures of part the same tape. This was done from the same problem camera using a different firewire cable and different computer. As you can see there are blocks not recorded and the drops outs occur in 2 places that a similar and the rest are different on each capture. I still want to try and use tape for the reasons I stated on the forum. Any thoughts ideas would be most welcome.

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee432/horizontal-hold/View1.jpg

obviously it isn't simple drop-outs we're looking at here.

has me completely baffled.....

I'm not seeing anything that convinces me that anything is "not recorded." The dropouts seems to be in different places each time. Even when they are close they don't line up exactly -- there is a slight shift. There are no gaps that actually are in the same place, as they would be if anything were missing on the recording.

So the signal seems to be recorded fine, which leads me to believe it isn't a camera problem -- at least in the recording phase.

I'm still thinking some grit that's moving around on the tape.

He's using FCP, no? Maybe he should try using a PC with something like Premiere.