I purchased the Sony NX5U for three primary reasons, being able to record for longer periods without changing tape, to get away from tape, and for a streamline work flow. I shoot in ( SD) 4X3 and record to the 128 gig Sony drive. The work flow is great it takes only minutes to download hours of video to my computer and I am able to immediately start editing. Ever thing looks great but I discovered a problem with the sound getting out of sinc. To make things worse the sound is not out of sync when playing the video back in the editor, only when I make the DVD and play it back it shows up. Seems to get worse the longer the program. I edit with Avid Liquid pro and yes that software is discontinued and no longer supported. Can anyone help with a fix for this or a suggestion. Thanks

It has been quite a while since I last worked with Liquid, but there may be several things to check. You are using Liquid Pro ver. 7.2?

Here are some questions to try to figure out where the problem is occurring.

Are you feeding AVCHD from your NX5 or are you working with the MPEG/SD format? (I do not remember Liquid being able to read AVCHD files.)

When you play back your DVD, are you playing a physical DVD on a stand-alone player or are you running a test on your computer?

What is your workflow from Liquid to your DVD. Are you doing a DVD directly from within Liquid (my recollection is that Liquid Pro 7.2 had that capability but it was buggy). Are you exporting an AVI file and then encoding to to DVD-MPEG2 in another application? Have you tried exporting a rendered timeline to an avi file and then running that exported file in , say, Windows Media Player, to see if you have sound synchronization issues?

Are you making your DVD with a muxed file (*. mp2?) or you exporting mpegs as separate video (*.m2v) and audio (*.wav) files for your DVD? If you are exporting as separate audio and video files, have you verified that each pair of audio and video files are the same length. (I vaguely recall having had a problem when exporting m2v/wav from Liquid 7.2 that some of the pairs would have different lengths with the video being a couple of seconds shorter or longer than the corresponding audio files.

Alos, have you checked your Liquid timeline to be sure that your video segments are the same length as the corresponding audio? I recall a problem with an innitial segement having audio a few rames shorter than the corresponding video. When I built a timeline for the DVD authoriting program, all the audio wound up being that many frames off.

Audio sync is usually a result of the audio clock being different than the timeline properties ( ie 441.1k input and 48k properties) or the audio being variable bit rate ( like mp3) and the software expecting CBR. I do not know Liquid but will it edit Dolby AC3 which may be your problem as the SD output from the NX5U is Dolby. If you have access to Vegas, Sound Forge TMPGenc etc you may want to recode the Dolby AC3 audio to a wav file.

Ron Evans

Thanks for your suggestions Jay and Ron. I use Liquid Pro 7.2 and from the NX5U camera the file is MPEG/SD.
I create my DVD's from the Liquid time line and have for three years and up to now using Sony VX2100. Had no issues until using my NX5U. I make stand alone DVD's to play in any player. I set up all my projects in the Liquid time line as MPEG-2 MP@HL (M2V) Auto 4:2:0 IPB. The audio format 16bit PCM.

Your audio properties format has to be Dolby AC3 or you will have to do a conversion of the NX5U audio to PCM audio. I do not know Liquid so cannot tell you how it will deal with an AC3 audio file but I suspect this is your problem.

The VX2100 that you were using recorded PCM audio so you had no problems but the NX5U records DVD ready MPEG2 with Dolby AC3 audio. You will either need an editor that works with Dolby AC3 or convert the file to PCM ( which will of course need an editor to do the conversion).

I also have an NX5U and can say you will get much, much better quality by recording in high definition and then transcoding to SD. Recoding an already compressed format like MPEG seems not to give as good a result as AVCHD downscaled to SD if you use TMPGenc T5 for instance. If you shoot 16x9 HD you will have a HD master for the future when people will demand 16x9. Croppingto 4x3 is fairly easy in most NLE`s. I shoot in HD and deliver SD DVD. I use Edius and Vegas as editors. Everything I do now is 16x9 I had gone to 16x9 when I got my FX1 several years ago.

Ron Evans

I agree with everything that Ron said except that my recollection is that Liquid 7.2 will not ingest the 28 Mbps AVCHD that is the HD format used by the NX5. Maybe Cineform would help but my recollection is that Pinnacle/Liquid has incompatabilities with Cineform avi files. (I might be thinking of the "Studio" products, however.)

I recall that forum member Philip Howells still has Liquid 7.2. I suggest you try a PM to him and see if he can help.

The NX5U is only 24Mbps max and that is for AVCHD. Anthony is using 4x3 SD MPEG2 which is 9Mbps MPEG2 with Dolby AC3 audio. The NX5U has several recording options either HD, SD or HD AND SD if one has both the FMU128 and SD cards. The newer 60P camcorders like my CX700 are 28Mbps for 60P recording but are still 24Mbps max for 1080i. I have no knowledge of Liquid and the real issue is if it will correctly manage Dolby AC3 audio which is what has been put on the timeline. Lots of NLE`s of a few year back would not handle Dolby AC3 audio and certainly not mp3 audio ( still true for a lot of NLE`s)

The timeline Anthony set was for 16bit PCM an incompatibility with the audio from the NX5U. It may have dealt with it reasonably on the timeline ( playback) but when rendered for DVD production did not do this correctly and hence the DVD playback problems.

Simplest solution is to convert this Dolby AC3 to LPCM but this of course has to be done in a program that will demux the audio from the MPEG2 file from the NX5U and extract the file correctly. I do not know what other programs Anthony has but TMPGenc T4 or T5 will do this or of course any of the modern NLE`s like Vegas which could just as well do the edit.

Ron Evans

I do love the Liquid editing but I may need to move to Vegas. Will the latest Vegas editing software run on Windows XP?
Thanks for all of the support.

The NX5U is only 24Mbps max and that is for AVCHD. Anthony is using 4x3 SD MPEG2 which is 9Mbps MPEG2 with Dolby AC3 audio. The NX5U has several recording options either HD, SD or HD AND SD if one has both the FMU128 and SD cards. The newer 60P camcorders like my CX700 are 28Mbps for 60P recording but are still 24Mbps max for 1080i. I have no knowledge of Liquid and the real issue is if it will correctly manage Dolby AC3 audio which is what has been put on the timeline. Lots of NLE`s of a few year back would not handle Dolby AC3 audio and certainly not mp3 audio ( still true for a lot of NLE`s)

The timeline Anthony set was for 16bit PCM an incompatibility with the audio from the NX5U. It may have dealt with it reasonably on the timeline ( playback) but when rendered for DVD production did not do this correctly and hence the DVD playback problems.

Simplest solution is to convert this Dolby AC3 to LPCM but this of course has to be done in a program that will demux the audio from the MPEG2 file from the NX5U and extract the file correctly. I do not know what other programs Anthony has but TMPGenc T4 or T5 will do this or of course any of the modern NLE`s like Vegas which could just as well do the edit.

Ron Evans

Ooops. Sorry about the "28" typo. I really did mean to type 24 mbps. I was only mentioning AVCHD per Ron's comments about editing in HD being the preferable workflow.

I do love the Liquid editing but I may need to move to Vegas. Will the latest Vegas editing software run on Windows XP?
Thanks for all of the support.



Yes if you have Win XP SP3. See this link for system requirements for Vegas 10.:

Vegas Pro 10 Overview (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro)

My guess is that your computer can't decode mpeg2 fast enough in the timeline so its falling out of sync with the audio. Try converting it to DV format before importing into your video editing software.

Anthony if you don't have anything other than Liquid try a lot of the trials before deciding. Vegas, Edius and I think Adobe have trials as well as TMPGenc. They will not all edit HDV or AVCHD in the trial.

Ron Evans

Anthony, I am doing the same thing you are doing except I output to avi. I use premiere elements for DVD creations with no problems. I would export to avi then edit then burn to see if that fixes it. When I finally move on to MC5 I will truely miss Liquid.

Dan

Thanks Dan, I will try that.

For Dan and Pete. The NX5U records to flash memory either a SDHC/Memorystick or a FMU128G flash memory unit. There is no tape. The files are transferred from the flash memory directly to the PC. Files can be either AVCHD in various bit rates or SD which is DVD ready MPEG2 with Dolby AC3 audio. To get an avi file it must be rendered from a NLE that is able to decode MPEG2 WITH Dolby AC3 audio. I think the problem is that Liquid is not managing this task correctly. I do not know this to be true because I do not know Liquid. I do know that lots of earlier NLE's could not edit AC3 correctly much like some of the present NLE's will not deal with mp3 correctly. If I am correct any output from Liquid will have this problem.

Any of the lower cost NLE's like Adobe Premiere Elements, Vegas Studio etc will deal with AC3 because they are set up for the current consumer cameras that mostly shoot with AC3 audio.

Ron Evans

Anthony:

My memory is that the manual for Liquid Pro 7.2 listed AC-3 as an audio format that could be imported along with Mpeg2.video. Also, I used Liquid to extract audio and video from DVDs on which I know that the audio was written as ac-3. Since your audio plays in sync from the timeline (where you have designated PCM as the format), I am inclined to discount (but not rule out) ac-3 audio being the culprit.

There are some things you can do to try to isolate where the problem is occurring. After I describe these steps, you might think it easier to just get Vegas 10 and be done with it. (I believe Edius 6 will run under XP if you have at least a dual core processor. As Ron suggested, you might want to check out demo versions to see how difficult it will be for you to switch from Liquid's idiosyncracies to those of the other programs).

Step 1 in troubleshooting, is with "fusing" which is what Liquid called linking or locking audio with video, With the audio being in sync when played from the timeline but being not in sync on the DVD, I am wondering if you fused the project before rendering to DVD? If not, try that and see if it fixes the problem.

Step 2 comes my starting to remember having had a problem with AC-3 audio going out of sync when coded for DVDs. This might have been under Liguid 7.1, and it was at least five years ago, so my memory is not very clear. What I recall is there was an issue with Liquid seeing or treating the audio as surround ac-3 rather than two-track stereo. The issue had something to do with the surround audio file sizes having to be divisible by some specific number such as 1536. If the AC-3 audio files did not exactly match that specification, the audio would get progressively further out of sync with the video when written to DVD. .I recall that I had to do something to be sure that I was getting standard stereo tracks. I think I might have exported all of the the audio tracks to Sound Forge, rendered it down to a two track stereo file which I saved as "wav" file that was then imported brought back into Liquid.

If you do not have an audio editor, try exporting all of your audio tracks together as a 48 kHz wave file. Bring that audio into your project and use it in place of all of your other audio tracks. If this stays in synch on your DVD, you have a work-around and can defer getting a new editing program.

Step 3: If that step does not fix the problem, try this which expands on what Dan suggested. Fuse your audio and video and export the whole timeline as an avi. Better yet, export each segment as an avi. (Maybe the problem is occurring in one particular segment.). Also export as DVD compliant mpeg2 files. Import the files into a new Liquid project. If the avi files still have the audio in synch but the mpeg files (on a different timeline) do not stay in synch, you've isolated the problem to Liquid's transcoding functions. If both are in synch, then your problem lies in Liquid's DVD authoring functions and it is time to get at least a new authoring program..

In my experience most editors aren't going like the mpeg format that the NX5 program records SD in. You'll need a Mpeg utility and codec to transcode to a more friendly editing format.

I have to say that i edit with Liquid 7.2 and have had hardly no problems editing with the file from my NX5 SD files. It some time won't play multiple streams of the Mpeg files though. I do know it won't play the PCM audio format. But my point was instead of buying a new program, import the files on the time line and go to file/export/AVI. Then reimporting the AVI file and edit away. Liquid doesn't like Mpeg format as well as AVI but it does edit it.

Edit; I just saw Jay # 3

Dan

Anthony---
with two of us recommending testing an avi export/import, it would be good to know if this works.

Dan ---
I am not sure I understood your point about Liquid not playing the PCM audio format but it may shed some light on the glitch Anthony has run into. For the sake of clarity, let me preface this by saying that I know we are not talking about the LPCM option with the NX5 -- LPCM is only available for HD video and we are talking SD streams which only allow "dolby digital" (ac-3) audio.

My recollection is that Liquid internally converted everything to PCM for audio editing and playback. Your comment makes me wonder if Anthony's Liquid might not be confusing itself with the AC3 on the timeline when it comes time to transcode for DVD.. Exporting to avi would convert all the audio to an actual PCM-wav format. When re-imported, Liquid would no longer have to do any internal conversions and then, maybe, Liquid would be able to transcode Anthony's new timeline to DVD with the audio in sync.

Jay you are right my bad. I was thinking LPCM.

Dan

I exported a one hour program from my Liquid time line to an AVI file, the video quality of the picture was noticably less. The sound looked close to sync, may actually be, I didn't have enough close up footage to be sure. But the reduced picture quality is not going to be exceptable. I have discovered that the sync seems to go out progressivly more and more about two frames every twenty minutes. So I started adding two black frames every twenty minutes. Then i decided instead of adding black picture frames I should take out two audio frames every twenty minutes at a point of no audio or very low audio, it doesn't have to be at exactly twenty minutes. I am going to test this some more if it works it is a relatively easy fix and I keep the picture quality. Thanks to all the pros in this field for your help. I am not the computer whiz and some of this I am struggling with.

Anthony ---

Just to be sure I understood this correctly: there is no problem with sync on the original timeline but, when you export to avi, there is a loss of sync in the new avi file at the rate roughly 2 frames per 20 minutes?

That you would be getting a loss of synch on export to AVI pretty strongly suggests to me that that your installation of Liquid is having issues with either the MPEG/SD or the AC3 that the NX records. (You did not mention this, but I am assuming that you did a "fuse" in Liquid before running your test. If you did not do that, render everything and do a fuse before running the test again.)

The degradation in image quality on export to AVI is probably a settings issue. I haven't used Lquid for four years or so, and do not remember the export option. Maybe Dan can help you there?

The audio issue remains and there may not be a convenient work-around. Liquid came out 5 or 6 years ago, long before the NX5 was released. There might be some slight variation in Sony's implementation of the MPEG or AC/3 recording codecs that is causing the glitch in Liquid. I suspect that it is time to consider a new NLE. Both Vegas 10 and Edius 6 seem likely to run on your existing XP machine, and both have fully functional trial versions that you can test out.

If you want to do some further testing under Liquid, I suggest the following.

First, the problem might be having ac-3 audio on the timeline when you create a DVD within Liquid. Here's how I would confirm or rule that out. First, export your mixed audio as a *.wav file rather than exporting the whole timeline to avi. Import the new wav file and put it on an audio track below your existing audio. Expand the timeline resolution/view to maximum zoom so you are basically able to see the frame markers. Go to the end of the timeline and see if your newly re-imported audio is the same length as the original timeline audio and video.

If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio is longer or shorter than than the original video and audio, you have an incompatibility and it is time to get a new NLE (which should allow you to shoot HD with your NX).

If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio still matches the video in length, make a DVD using only the new audio tracks with the video. (You might want to make a new sequence, copy your edited video to it without the audio, and drop in the newly imported audio as the only audio.) If the DVD audio is in sync, you have found a work around. If it is not in sync, you have confirmed that it is time to get a new NLE.

Anthony one quick question. When you add your footage to the time line, is the audio separate from video?
if your audio is separate from you video, I would try to bring them as one. On the left of the time line there is a arrow, right click and add as grouped. I out put to AVI all the time with no bad effect. Hope this helps. When export what is your settings?

Dan

I am just now making new DVD. I found out how to set the DVD audio out to- 48kHz. stereo 16 Bit Dolby Digital 224kBits/second. I forgot how to do this I have had the same settings for a couple of years now! I'm going to bed and let this render. Time now 11PM Eastern Standard Daylight time.