I know most of us have probably thought about it but didn't want to sound crazy and actually verbalize the thoughts. But I am going to say it....

I'm thinking about buying some Epic's and Scarlets for wedding video production (maybe mainly the epic-s and the scarlet fixed).... not only for weddings but if I own them, I'll use them for weddings. Anybody else thinking about bringing the red, and 3k and 4k to the wedding world. I know that we can't deliver at that high of resolutions but it'd be great to reframe parts later, and stabilize footage with our resolution.

I thought about that, as I do other forms of video production; not just weddings. If I do own one in the future, I might be tempted to bring it to a wedding.

Thread title changed from "Ok I'll say it..." to "RED for wedding video production."

Please avoid ambiguous thread titles on this site. Thanks in advance,

I've been thinking hard even using a F3 for my quinceanera events which is over kill itself for that type of work. If I had a Epic-S or X I'd use it for my event job cause it's just sitting there.

Nope, actually went the other way after assessing my market and competition. IMO, most of the customer base out there doesn't know/doesn't care about the things we often are so concerned with. If you have a market segment that demands the RED, by all means go for it !!! Here in my market I can match or surpass the quality of imagery my competition is providing, and do that with a GH1.

I have the attitude that I don't really care if the client is going to notice the higher quality camera or that extra few days I spend touching up edits and color grading, I know, and one day I might have a client who actually notices the difference between different cameras and they might appreciate it...

however... I think the red is more than just if the client is going to notice the extra quality. I think the extra resolution might help us reframe and fix some mistakes that happen live due to the fact that there is so much extra resolution for us to play with... thus making our lives easier... Thats why I'm thinking about using the red.. not so much because the clients will really notice that its 4k and not 1080p. if that make sense...

Louis I have seen your work, it's gorgeous !!! I am sure if you end up with a RED, you will make it just sing !!!

Your thoughts on your upgrade are similar to what I just did, a major change-up for each of us. The only thing we would have in common about our upgrades though, could be the decision process we use.

I had X dollars to work with and went down the checklist comparing the camera I wanted, to the one I bought. The one I wanted blew away the one I got in potential quality, but the quality was going to be lost in my delivery method and/or on those who would view it and not know the difference. So FOR ME, the one I wanted was going to be "overkill" which I equated to "wasted money". I took the difference in costs and invested that instead into other gear that WILL help ME in producing things MY audience will see.

Your decision has a number of intangibles connected to it. Before you get to those you really should go down the business aspect of the decision and find out your real cost to own and use a RED will be.

Figure out the depreciation you expect the cam to have during it's life with you. Add to that the cost of any financing and additional cards, gear, software etc the RED will require that you don't already have. If having a RED will bring in extra work because the work REQUIRES a RED, estimate what you think that amount is, take that projected profit (not value of your time) and subtract it from the earlier total. Now total that all up and divide it by the number of "non required RED" shoots you expect to have during the RED's life with you. That should give you a realistic "per shoot equipment cost".

You mentioned additional post time, you have to estimate that now and add a per shoot estimate of the value of that time to the averaged out "per shoot equipment cost". Now you should have an honest "cost per shoot" of what having and using a RED is going to be.

Whatever that number turns out to be, you can sit there then and ask yourself "is it worth this much TO ME to be able to save some shots, reframe and put out weddings in 4K quality ???"

I went down that same basic "decision tree" and when I got to the bottom, for the camera I wanted MY answer was no. You know yourself and your situation better than we do. You might get to the bottom and scream "HECK YES !!!!" Honestly I hope that would be the answer you come up with, would be neat to see some 4K weddings. :-)

First thank for the compliment on my work :)

Depreciation is definitely a plus to RED though as I was looking at RED Ones before I was looking at an Epic. I couldn't find a used one for less than 24k... for a camera that retails for 25k. So the way RED holds their value because of the upgrade paths really does help me to think the depreciation model of the RED is a rather shallow curve.

On the profit basis, I think that I will be able to get a good amount of jobs that will require me to use the RED for other productions that are not weddings, this is another one of the reasons why I'm thinking about going with the RED for my next camera, but we'll have to see if corporate work picks up a bit before the Epic-S starts shipping.

If I do get the Epic-S to shoot with, then I'll probably do weddings with 1 Epic S, and 2 Scarlet Fixed cameras, and be able to deliver top quality wedding work... I also like the fact that I can use all my nice glass on the Epic, AND be able to have auto focus, which is definitely something I miss when shooting with DSLR's at weddings... at other projects I shoot manual anyway.

I'm not worried about the extra post time... I put that in anyway, and I enjoy it... and I have the extra equipment to edit RED anyway.. so I'm just excited by the prospect of being able to shoot weddings with really professional gear now that the new RED cameras are really small. I'm going to need to get into the RED game anyway for my main job so we'll have to see!!!

I have to say, for weddings, I think this is overkill.

If you have other work that you could make money off the RED with then by all means buy one, but even if I had one I still wouldn't use it for weddings.

It's only a wedding film after all. We're talking the lowest common denominator here. Lower than music videos or indy short films on the scale of production. It's just not worth the extra hassle/resources/time/effort/expense/risk/liabilty over using a camcorder or DSLR (unless you have magically found a market where you are regularly charging $50,000 per wedding!) when the end result is not going to be all that different to the viewer.

That's not to say that RED cameras don't make me drool, and that you'll no doubt produce amazing imagery with it in whatver other project you use it for.

John | I think it's a bit offensive to say that weddings are the 'lowest common denominator'. I think a well-done wedding film carries far more value over time than a well-done music video. Those of us dedicated to capturing the most important day in a couple's life and creating a story from it don't see it as the 'lowest common denominator' ... and neither do the couples. Just sayin'.

Louis | I will say I agree with John that using RED gear at a wedding seems like overkill, just not for the reason he stated. 4k is beautiful, but you can't deliver in 4k to the couple so they will never see the benefit of the technology. Given the sizable investment required to upgrade all my current gear to RED gear, and given that I have no way to realistically deliver the extra quality, it's not worth it to me. Sure it would be nice to maybe reframe or zoom a shot now and then, but that alone can't justify the cost for me.

I don't think John intends to be offensive -- instead he simply might not realize just how high-end the wedding video market can get! It is by no means at all "the lowest common denominator," not by a long shot.

I wonder what it'd cost for a properly outfitted RED for shooting weddings? I'm thinking you could easily show up to a gig with over $100,000 worth of gear. Get a little distracted and next thing you know your camera has grown legs.


Mark

Well Louis I am probably way more a "numbers guy" than I am creative. It appears FOR YOU the numbers for owning a RED work out though. Now all you have left is the "emotional" side of the decision process. Guys have brought up good reasons not to such as, overkill and potential loss if gear this valuable is stolen.

But what no one has brought up is what impact on YOU will having a RED as your camera bring to the table. The pride of ownership is a definite possibility. That pride could be translated into an actual desire to present an even more improved product to YOUR clients. If YOU are shooting with tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear, YOU are going to want to deliver something that let's the client know that YOU did. IMO, I see that as both a conscious as well as subconscious motivator that could take your work even further.

For YOU, because the numbers appear to work out and the ownership need will be there anyways soon, and you like the additional editing time portion of your projects, I don't see any reason YOU shouldn't do it.

I don't think it's overkill at all. I fully intend to buy a Scarlet 8X fixed the moment it's released and use it on all my shoots, weddings included.

Many of us here already shoot hi def and deliver in SD all the time, and nobody thinks that's nuts. Shooting in 4K and delivering in hidef (or still SD) is just looking forward. And you'll have the equipment necessary to use on more hi-end shoots.

If this works in your business model, then who's to say you're crazy to do it?

Just out of curiosity, what do red owners realistically charge for a full day of wedding shooting and editing? $2K? $5K? $10K? $20K?

I don't think John intends to be offensive -- instead he simply might not realize just how high-end the wedding video market can get! It is by no means at all "the lowest common denominator," not by a long shot.

No offence was intended and in no way was I trying to devalue the work done by wedding videographers. They provide a special service which preserves precious memories for decades to come.

I'm fully aware of just how high end the wedding video market can be, but statement was not concerning the quality of work, I'm talking about the average clients and the average budget.

Other forms of video's have a market with a much higher dollar value - music videos, commercials, even corporate video have a much higher dollar value attached to them, purely because the client has much more money available and is willing to spend it.

Until my brides are willing to pay me $1000 per minute of the final product, then I think my statement is fair. It's a service aimed at the masses, not at big industries - it is aimed at the average person - the lowest common denominator.

Sure, every now and then somebody will land a job shooting a Royal Wedding. But for every Royal Wedding there are 15 Beyonce music videos, 50 Hollywood blockbusters and 500 Coca-Cola Commercials.

I wonder what it'd cost for a properly outfitted RED for shooting weddings? I'm thinking you could easily show up to a gig with over $100,000 worth of gear. Get a little distracted and next thing you know your camera has grown legs.


Mark

If the camera was going to be in the 100k range I wouldn't even be thinking about it... right now.. purely guessing that is this is how much I think it will cost:

The Epic-M cost right now 58k and I have no intention on purchasing that... the Epic-X will be the same camera but made in a factory and therefore will be cheaper.. I assume in the 30's with out all the extras... I would like the Epic-S so I assume in the 20's for the body, and maybe 5k or so in enough media to last me a while and still be able to do hdrx if I feel the need, or shoot a higher frame rate for part of the day.

Then, I hope to get the canon mount and be able to use all my L series lenses with autofocus. Additionally, I would then hope to get a scarlet fixed and hang on to my 5d as a full wedding kit... totaling (not including lenses) no more than 30k new investment, with the option to shoot other things as well as I do corporate work and work for other firms as well.

So I'm thinking the numbers work out for me, and creatively, I think it adds a lot to work with when you're in post that the DSLR's do not offer.

Aside from shooting 4K video there are other unique features of the RED that appeal including shooting R3D RAW, enormous dynamic range (even more so with HDRx) & recording at high frame rates (up to 120fps).

totaling (not including lenses) no more than 30k new investment, with the option to shoot other things as well as I do corporate work and work for other firms as well.


I don't really know if you'd be able to pull the whole kit together for 30k. Have you seen the pricing on the accessories? Batteries, monitors, media?

I wouldn't be as concerned if the camera were an over kill or not but whether the work flow required would be worth it. The RED shoots some incredible video but the real plus for it is the fact that is shoots raw and therefore can be heavily graded in post. If that's something that you can live with and you can afford it, then go for it. I don't think you will ever be able to justify it by thinking that it will pay for it because you shooting someones wedding with a RED and they will therefore be willing to pay more. But I could be wrong.

Is a RED a "run and gun" camera? Don't have any experience with it but from what I've seen it looks like a camera that needs more set-up time compared to a eng type of camera and at weddings you often need to get it right in a blink of an eye.
I would never think of taking such expensive equipment to a wedding to have drunken uncle bob spill beer over it :)

If the camera was going to be in the 100k range I wouldn't even be thinking about it... right now.. purely guessing that is this is how much I think it will cost:

The Epic-M cost right now 58k and I have no intention on purchasing that... the Epic-X will be the same camera but made in a factory and therefore will be cheaper.. I assume in the 30's with out all the extras... I would like the Epic-S so I assume in the 20's for the body, and maybe 5k or so in enough media to last me a while and still be able to do hdrx if I feel the need, or shoot a higher frame rate for part of the day.

Then, I hope to get the canon mount and be able to use all my L series lenses with autofocus. Additionally, I would then hope to get a scarlet fixed and hang on to my 5d as a full wedding kit... totaling (not including lenses) no more than 30k new investment, with the option to shoot other things as well as I do corporate work and work for other firms as well.

So I'm thinking the numbers work out for me, and creatively, I think it adds a lot to work with when you're in post that the DSLR's do not offer.

Ah, missed that... Epic-S not Epic-M. That's great you have lenses already and I read somewhere that the RED camera's Canon adapter makes full use of all the electrical controls of the lenses. I found where Steve Kalle posted a list of gear with prices for what would be a minimum to get started. Says $12,000 for the body and then about another $13,000 in accessories.... So nowhere near the $100,000 I was guessing. Apparently the Epic-S was going into production in May, and then the Japan earthquake caused another setback.

Referenced link:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-f3-cinealta/492705-ready-shoot-red-epic-vs-f3-cost.html

I did a wedding in Feb. and left my main camera plus wireless receiver and two portable sound recorders in the main room after the ceremony. I went to catch some other footage on a pre-positioned camera and when I returned I came up behind three guests who were discussing what they could steal from the place and one said, "that video equipment looks pretty nice." Would hate to have to shoot someone at a wedding, could put a damper on the festivities :)

W

Is a RED a "run and gun" camera? It is designed for, and primarily optimized for digital cinematography. That said, you can use it for whatever you want, just like any other camera.

There's no reason why you couldn't use a RED with suitable lenses.

However, bear in mind that the RED One is very power hungry and it's best have a few batteries ready to keep you going through the day. plus the 1 minute plus reboot time needs to be factored in and planned for during the event.

The new Epics should be easier, although you'll need to wait for the final production versions to come out.

People seem to be mixing up the original RED and the new Epic and Scarlets. The new ones are much smaller, though as Chris mentions, the Epic is designed for cinematography.

The Scarlet 8X fixed would be pretty much ideal for doc, run and gun work and would be perfect at a wedding as far as I can tell, and is supposed to cost about the same as an EX1. We'll have to wait a bit more to see, though.

Check here to see a working Scarlet 8X in action. Very small and easy to use:

Red Scarlet 2/3" Fixed Camera Coming To CES 2011 - preview video w/ Ted Schilowitz on Vimeo

I would never bring the original Red to a wedding unless it was a giant very high end job with a crew! Not that I have the option. I could only dream of owning one...

It is designed for, and primarily optimized for digital cinematography. That said, you can use it for whatever you want, just like any other camera.

In the video that is shown above of the scarlett, you can see he is making iris and iso adjustments on the touchscreen lcd, that is not "run and gun" for me. It's like a dslr; a lot of hassle to get right if you need to be quick. That's why I was asking, with a eng camera you can adjust iris and other important settings directly on the camera without taking your eye from the viewfinder, a red body looks completely different in layout of the controlls to make the necessary adjustments, if you are doing a controlled shoot, then you have all the time but an uncontrolled shoot (like a wedding) where you need to make adjustments in realtime sometimes I just wonder how a Red functions then and when looking at that red scarlet it looks to me that its allmost like a dslr but perhaps I"m wrong.

It really depends on when you want to go out and buy this camera. If you want to buy now the only choice is the RED One, later in the year the Epic (at least the X) and the 2/3" Scarlet fixed should be available.

The Scarlet does look like a neat documentary camera. There appears to be a number of options on how you control the lens functions on the fixed.Scarlet and I suspect you'll need to play with one to see how best to operate it.

The interchangeable lens Scarlet seems to be taking longer (plus rumours of it not coming out), you can fit a V/F instead of a LCD screen and if fitted with traditional lenses you could make those adjustments directly on the lens.

I wouldn't start making too many hard plans until these cameras are actaully available and you know the delivery times. I expect there'll be a waiting time before delivery.

To add to your comments, I wonder if it has an ND filter? Or image stabilizer? What about power consumption? Lastly, I wanted to see them demo the unit with a transition from dark room to bright sunlight. Can you adjust the white balance quickly, or on the fly? Or apply ND filter? Is the image on the exterior monitor even visible in sunlight?? If not, would you have to whip out a hood to cover it while shooting? From what I've seen so far, it looks like a rough camera to wrestle with for run and gun.

The Epic doesn't have built in ND, it's a digital cinema camera, I understand that the Scarlet fixed does.

Shooting a wedding with RED is exactly like buying a Lamborghini, then driving it in rush-hour traffic.

Shooting a wedding with RED is exactly like buying a Lamborghini, then driving it in rush-hour traffic.

In L.A. that's not exactly an uncommon sight.

Around here every once in awhile you'll see a
Ferrari in a Wal-Mart parking lot. Doesn't happen
very often but it's certainly not unheard of.

To add to your comments, I wonder if it has an ND filter? Or image stabilizer? What about power consumption? Lastly, I wanted to see them demo the unit with a transition from dark room to bright sunlight. Can you adjust the white balance quickly, or on the fly? Or apply ND filter? Is the image on the exterior monitor even visible in sunlight?? If not, would you have to whip out a hood to cover it while shooting? From what I've seen so far, it looks like a rough camera to wrestle with for run and gun.

Your wish is my command:

HDRx Tunnel and Sea Pool Footage – Royal Galactic Cinema (http://camerarentalz.com/hdrx-tunnel-epic-footage/)

There have been a lot of other great points here that I'd love to comment on, however, I just got back from a commercial shoot for a drug company, and now I'm insanely tired so I'm going to turn on some tv and relax before bed, but I have off tomorrow so I'll be back on then.

Aside from shooting 4K video there are other unique features of the RED that appeal including shooting R3D RAW, enormous dynamic range (even more so with HDRx) & recording at high frame rates (up to 120fps).Apparently Scarlet is 3K (3072x1728 pixels) & Epic is 5K (5120x2700 pixels) which means that you could be shooting 120 decent resolution still photographs per second along with your video.

Well, it's been done already. Here's probably the first wedding shot on Epic. And two of them, no less. Shot at 5K. Apparently each frame can be pulled as a 14 megapixel frame:

Red Epic Wedding Trailer for Jen & Paul on Vimeo

To be honest, if you wouldn't have told me it was shot on red, I"d never know. There's no question that what comes out of this camera is superior to any dslr or "mid range" camera's most weddingvideographers use and certainly it has more advantages, like pulling this hugh still frames out but for me the equipment cost heavily outweighs what I could get in return for making wedding "movies".
Using dslr's is still the most costeffective solution today with a resulting quality that 99% of any bride would be very happy with. To me a Red is serious overkill for a wedding.

I read in the article they shot mostly handheld and "run and gun" with 2 red epic's, That's like using a Sony cx115 for a budweiser commercial.

A pair of Epic-Ms at $60K each as must have been used here would never be cost effective for a wedding shoot but a pair of Scarlets at a projected $6K could be especially as you can also deliver high quality stills.

A scarlet? Isn't that this "coming soon" camera since a few years now? :D

Ofcourse you are right that a scarlet will be more costeffective since it will be a lot cheaper then these high end epics, but $6K I believe when I see it, Red has changed their minds that often you can't take them serious anymore, I also think to have a fully production ready scarlet you probably get closer to $10K but we"ll have to wait and see. In Europe that would mean a scarlet would be almost half cheaper then a canon xf300 (listed over $10K in these parts)...I don't think so.

If you read about that wedding video, you will see that the 2 Epic cameras were there for 'fun'. So, you shouldn't think that you can capture an entire wedding as good as most of you do with other cameras.

You should also realize that these Epics use 60 watts, thus, requiring many very large batteries. Its small size is not so small when you need such large batteries for long events. And since you need a mattebox, the small size of the Epic is completely negated.

Add in far more SSDs than what I originally quoted for such a long event because I was taking into consideration a data wrangler and video village on set to offload and backup - not possible at a wedding. Thus, add at least $10k more just for SSDs.

I will add to prior comments about the extra work in post with Red cameras. There is a lot of extra work and serious computer horsepower is needed for efficient editing on a daily basis.

Please stop referring to 5k PIXELS as resolution. The number of pixels on a sensor is different from the recorded resolution. Because it is a bayer sensor, the resolution is much lower than the number of pixels.

Steve,

I do not think the batteries are that much larger than normal sized anton baur batteries so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Additionally, it would be possible to dump footage from the onto external drives so I do not think that would be too much of an issue either but I do not know for sure. IF I do buy a RED it would be for other purposes other than weddings, but I might bring an epic to a high end wedding to give it a shot and just have my other camera on standby incase its not working out.

Louis