I was wondering if this Sony F65 is the rumored 4K Digital Cinema Camcorder that many have been talking and rumoring about recently on this board and others???

Sony VideON | The F65 "The Arrival" Behind the scenes | Most Recent (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/related-recently_added/video-cinealta_f65_the_arrival_behind_scenes/)

Affirmative

This will come off as a stupid question, so forgive me, but could we say that this is like shooting on 65mm film, i.e., 4K? Like I said, I may sound dumb here, because I've stepped away from digital film and video production in the past year, and haven't been keeping up on everything.

Heath

This seems to be intended as a 65mm digital equivalent. Considering Sony have so far been blanketing the market starting from a US$300+ 1080/50p,60p-capable video device that shoots very decent footage in the size of a deck of cards, where else can they go but up, far higher up. 1080p will no longer cut it.

The sensor size is no where near a 65mm frame. It's S35mm, just tiny bit bigger than the 23.6mm x13.3mm, 27.1 diagonal F35, 9000 and F3 at 24.7 mm x 13.1mm, 28 mm diagonal.

Yes, it's a bit confusing to compare this camera to 65mm film. Makes sense on a resolution level but having the sensor remain essentially the same size means focal lengths will deliver effectively the same field of view, unlike 65mm which functioned similar to anamorphic, where a given focal length would deliver twice as wide an image. It's a phenomenon approached by the 5D, which does the same sort of thing. The good news is that existing lenses that cover a S35 sensor will work with the F65, rather than requiring a whole new run of lenses to cover a larger format.

I believe 65mm neg is usually scanned at 8k and to get the best out of 35mm neg 4k (not the same as the Beyer sensor pixel figures). It was always amazing how good the flagship cinema 70mm prints made from 35mm neg were.

Of course, projection is another matter and they'll be aiming this camera at producing product for the 4k theatres.

For me the most interesting is that it can shoot 1,85 without cropping and has the resolution to do 2,35 without anamorphic lenses. Spec wise is very well thought camera. But I couldn't understand the 4:1 compression what kind of file type is?

It appears to be part of their SRMaster product range, which increases the range recording formats up to 4K 16-bit RAW. It seems to be a development of the SR Codec.

Quite impressive camera. Flew to NYC last month, Abelcine had one on display with a rather complete workflow.

At a wildlife film festival two years ago , I led a workshop on cameras and formats. The panel had a wide range of expertise in film and digital. One conclusion was that the higher pixel count was doomed to slow and that the information "behind" the pixel needed to catch up. We are seeing this occur with Sony's new system of color receptors and the technique of sampling light.

Quite an exciting time to be a cinematographer. If I could only afford ALL the toys this Christmas!

Best Wishes to all for a Great 2012,

Tim

The F65 package is not a lot more than Alexa M and not a million miles (or dollars) from Red Epic. The price of the camera is $65k or around $85,000 USD for camera, viewfinder, SR-R4 recorder, one SR memory card and a card reader.

I saw one two days ago in Sydney, looks like an impressive beast.

Looks like it's meeting with some approval:

Sony Steps Up Manufacturing After Pre-Orders Land F65 4K Camera in U.S. Top 200 - The Hollywood Reporter (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/sony-f65-camera-hits-us-top-200-272128?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Compose%20-%20headlines_121111_%20(1)%20(1)&utm_content=)

... One conclusion was that the higher pixel count was doomed to slow and that the information "behind" the pixel needed to catch up. We are seeing this occur with Sony's new system of color receptors and the technique of sampling light.

...

Tim,

Can you explain this a little more. It sounds fascinating, but I have no idea what it means :).

Tim,

Can you explain this a little more. It sounds fascinating, but I have no idea what it means :).
It sounds as if he's referring to improvements in light sensitivity and dynamic range, as well as possibly to the development of practical global shutters.

Looks like it's meeting with some approval:

Sony Steps Up Manufacturing After Pre-Orders Land F65 4K Camera in U.S. Top 200 - The Hollywood Reporter (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/sony-f65-camera-hits-us-top-200-272128?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Compose%20-%20headlines_121111_%20(1)%20(1)&utm_content=)
I'm definitely looking forward to it since I'm one of the people who has it on pre-order (I wish).

Realistically, it's interesting that Rule is getting it. This would give me a chance to rent it one day if I get the right project.

I went to a product demo last week of the F65, and it looks very promising.

Paulo, nice to hear you mention Rule--haven't thought about them in a while. I used to work out of Boston. John actually sold me my first Steadicam in '89! Say hi to him for me next time you see him.

I actually never rented anything from their yet.

It sounds as if he's referring to improvements in light sensitivity and dynamic range, as well as possibly to the development of practical global shutters.

I believe that's referring to more accurate per pixel construction in the output matrix. That probably means cleanly taking at least 6 million measurements at 1080p, and 24 million at 4K.

The F65 is the only CMOS character of its type that has a rotary shutter. Rotary shutters allow the camera operator to control the amount of motion blur. Thanks !

The Alexa Studio has a mirror shutter and has no rolling shutter artifacts according to Arri.

I'm doing some research into various cameras for feature film production at the moment, especially the Sony F65, RED EPIC and Arri Alexa.

Have any of you worked with an F65 using the rotating shutter? Does the rotating shutter really prevent rolling shutter issues entirely? Even with camera movement and/or fast subject motion?

Thanks for reading

Stuart

The only situation I can think of where the Alexa wouldn't suffice in this area, except for really aggressive and atypical camera movement, would be with momentary flashes like from a strobe unit. On an every day use situation, my friends who have had experience with the F65 tell me that it is a "pig" to deal with size-wise and they all prefer the Alexa (my default camera of choice also). If mobility is a part of your feature plans, you'd likely be happiest with the Alexa.

Not sure this is really applicable but having a mechanical shutter may end up having more problems with flicker and screens in shots not just strobes as mentioned before. Thank god CRT's are almost gone. Philips BTS used a mechanical shutter for there early CCD cameras and it was a bit of a pain at the time compared to other manufacturers issues. Sony should probably let you turn it off as needed

Daniel.. they (Grass Valley) actually still use the mechanical shutters.. aside from the fact that they are not as sensitive I've not come across many problems.. (though that is in studio enviroments)

The F65's mechanical shutter does eliminate all rolling shutter issues, but of course you limited to a 180 degree or narrower shutter when using it. You can turn off the mechanical shutter if you need to. The F65 is bulky and power hungry, but the images are incredible. The 13-14 stops of dynamic range and 16 bit linear raw material is amazing to work with in post. Just remember though that despite the 3:1 compression because of the 8k sensor the raw files are huge. Can you wait for the F55 in February, that has a global shutter.

Thank you very much for the replies.

Charles, sounds like the Alexa might be the tool of choice, does the Alexa have algorithms to prevent rolling shutter artefacts? I didn't realise the F65 was so hefty! Do you know how a fully rigged EPIC compares in mobility to the Alexa?

Daniel, do you think that if you're using the rotating shutter on the F65 different frequency lighting might play havoc with the video if it's out of sync?

Sander, probably a silly question but why are cameras with mechanical shutters less sensitive to light?

Alister, the F55 looks very nice indeed. That's another one for the research list :) Does a global shutter eliminate rolling shutter problems entirely? Are there any other cameras you think I should consider on the digital cinema camera shortlist?

My enthusiasm for the F65 'pig' is waning!

Stuart, I couldn't answer that. Does your production have specific aspects that are red flags for rolling shutter, why is it a concern to this degree?

The Alexa is tried and true and is currently the first-choice camera for television and feature digital acquisition. The F65 does have fantastic performance but I wouldn't look at it myself for anything but a super-high stakes/budget project. Not many people on this site are working in that arena, including myself.

The sensor size is no where near a 65mm frame. It's S35mm, just tiny bit bigger than the 23.6mm x13.3mm, 27.1 diagonal F35, 9000 and F3 at 24.7 mm x 13.1mm, 28 mm diagonal.

F65 vs VG900 FOV with 35mm lens :
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8063/8193785861_5f576ae6e7_b.jpg

My VG900 with 35mm F1.4 FF Sony A mount lens:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8343/8194434390_32c4f1073a_b.jpg

Thanks for getting back to me Charles. I'm trying to come up with solutions for a number of different shooting scenarios for future digital feature projects. One of which is for a Bourne Ultimatum or NYPD Blue style of filming - lots of action and camera handheld camera movement, Though it might not be something we'll do I need to figure out what cameras would be needed to tick that box. The F55 or F65 seem like the best candidates (with testing).

Obviously it will depend on your projected shoot dates then Stuart--while some are obsessed with being early adopters of cameras for the 15 seconds of internet fame of being "first", my experience is that it can lead to a lot of heartache on set, unless you have full support of the manufacturer, extra bodies sitting on the truck etc. F55 looks great but I wouldn't want to gamble on it being out there and fully functional for a mission-critical project for quite a while.

Thanks for getting back to me Charles. I'm trying to come up with solutions for a number of different shooting scenarios for future digital feature projects. One of which is for a Bourne Ultimatum or NYPD Blue style of filming - lots of action and camera handheld camera movement, Though it might not be something we'll do I need to figure out what cameras would be needed to tick that box. The F55 or F65 seem like the best candidates (with testing).

One option you might want to consider Stuart is either the F35 (which can be had for a song these days) or the F65 paired with a light-weight external recorder like the Convergent Design Gemini. If the frame-rates and recording options fit within your needs, removing the huge and heavy Sony recorders from the equation really changes the dynamic with the big Sonys by bringing the weight down in line with Alexa. The form factor of the body will never be as nice as the Arri, but once the weight becomes manageable you can do a lot more with the camera (and importantly, for the sort of shooting you're describing, you get a global shutter with both of those cameras).

That's really useful info, thanks guys :)

Charles, good point about the F55 and that it might not be fully de-glitched. I'll put it on the list but only for projects in the distant future!

Mark, that's a great suggestion, thank you very much. I didn't realise the F35 had a CCD sensor (super 35mm as well!). I must look into this camera further. They're cheap on ebay too! :) I guess they're not as popular now because it's not a K resolution. I always thought full 1080 HD looked great on a cinema screen myself but it might be a problem for cinematic distribution unless you upscale to 2K, not sure if that's a good idea or not. But apparently 1080P might be acceptable for digital cinema packages. It would be a great camera for going straight to TV or DVD / Blu-ray anyway if that was the only intended market.

I didn't realise it was the Sony recorder that was the problem in terms of F65 mobility. I wondered why the weight of the camera was similar to the Alexa in the spec but people were complaining about it being a pig to work with.

The form factor of the body will never be as nice as the Arri

I definitely agree - the Alexa has the perfect body :)