I've been reading about the FS100, watching the first videos, considering all pros and cons - and even though I do know what mattebox is for and that screw-on filters exist - I still would like to articulate this once again:

- Dear Sony,

Before you start actual production of this little marvel, please redesign the front barrel of the camera (leaving the rear boxy body intact), and incorporate the proper ND filtering for us. If the filter wheel fits between the S35 imager and the lens mount flange on the F3, it will certainly fit into the FS100 as well - the space is just 2 mm shorter! All that is needed is some more place around this areas for the wheel mechanism itself, so making the front barrel would certainty suffice.

If you do that, you will show that you are really listening to your customers, and will make us very happy. The FS100 is all about controllable DOF, but also about compactness and ability to go places no fully-blown rig would be allowed. It's all about changing fast prime lenses frequently, while keeping the aperture wide open.

While using alternative ways of ND filtering is certainly viable - no matter how we look at it, it partially denies all the above features and virtues. Also, controlling the light by increasing shutter speed is not practical, as the FS100 is a movie camera, and movies cannot be filmed with varying shutter speeds...

Please, give us internal ND filter! Please allow us to be creative without so much hassle!

With due respect,

Piotr Wozniacki

PS. Dear fellow users of this great forum, please add your comments to this thread so it grows and hopefully gets through to Sony. At the same time, if some of you are of opposite opinion - please refrain from teaching us how to use our mattebixes, cross-polarizing variable ND filters, etc; not in this thread - please :)

I agree - but, no chance of this happening.

After the earthquake, I think Sony is doing all it can just to gear back up for regular production, much less delay a new product over a costly re-design.

I also agree.
Just as the EX1 was updated to the EX1R, I think Sony may update the FS100 . . . in about 12 to 18 months. They will listen. They move slowly.

I really don't want to be locked into using a Matte Box or screw in filters on every shoot. As much as the FS100 has advantages over the AF100 I have to seriously consider the additional time and cost on the lower budget client shoots I do.

Piotr,

I know this won't be a popular response but.. Sony already has that camera available. Its just much more expensive than the FS100.

I know exactly how much more expensive. There is an F3 sitting still in its box next to me as I type this response.

I would be surprised if changes like that are implemented any time soon. It would cut into the sales of the F3. Once the details of the FS100 came out I had to rethink my decision to buy one. In the end I decided to pony up more cash and get the camera that offered the complete package. I wasn't happy about spending double but thats what I had to do.

I'm sure Sony made the choices they did regarding the features on the FS100 deliberately.

Chris Medico

Just because they won't fix it doesn't mean it won't suffer the same fate as the VG10... a dud. Don't buy the FS100 if it's DOA for you. Go buy from a camera maker who delivers the camera you need.

I agree. ND filters is a make it or break it feature for me. And no, I
don't want to add screw in filters or a mattbox. So, I won't buy it,
and I'll continue to hang on to my money until a camera comes along that
actually does everything I want (the FS 100 would have been it with built
in ND filters.) I know, the F3 is there, but it is a little out of my price range....it's close, but not quite there for me. Not saying it isn't worth it's price, just a little much for me.

The AF100 has ND filters. And HD/SDI. It's a very good option.

You're right. The AF100 DOES have ND filters which is a big plus for it
in my book. However, there are other reasons I don't want to spend my
money on the AF100.....not to bash it either, it's a fine camera. If I
could combine some of the features of the FS 100 with the AF 100, I'd be
set :-) Of course that is the way it usually works I guess. Not a huge
deal, I bet before too long, someone will make the camera I want to spend
money on, and until then, I'll just keep getting by like I have been
for the last few years.

Piotr,

It is very simple. If you don't like what a manufacturer offers then don't buy that product. I own cameras by Sony (several), Canon, Panasonic and Nikon. Each are (or were) best in class for my specific needs at the time I bought them. Don't like the FS100 then buy the AF100 if you need that functionality etc...

As already stated. Sony has made a commercial decision with regard to the market placement of the FS100 relative to its F3, the Panasonic AF100 (and everything else that's out there/they think might soon appear from their competitors).

They also have much work to do, no doubt, to recover from the terrible events in Japan.

It's a free market and customers like us will decide the commercial success of the FS100 at its current price point, not a petition, and that's all that matters to Sony, how well it sells.

Alas, we ALL HOPE manufacturers would actually listen a lot more to their potential customers.... BEFORE they design their next camera, not afterwards! Big Sigh....

Well I'll reply as to "Sign" the petition.

As it is, I'm either going to wait for something a bit better or just get the AF100.

F3 is a bit out of my price range at the moment.

That said, if Sony do put in some ND filter system, I will buy the FS100... just not holding my breath on that one. ;)

The F3 is quite another league, and differs from the FS100 with many more advanced features than ND filters. Sony's marketing decision is wrong - and not just for us, but to Sony themselves. They will be losing sales not to their own F3, but to the Panasonic's AF100. Especially if it turns out that what BBC is saying about the actual pixel count on the S35 chip is true...

Piotr

*burk signs

I agree their Marketing guys got this one very wrong (I spent 25 years working in R&D closely with Marketing guys, for global companies, so I know exactly how these things go).

It's very frustrating but life goes on. We've all been here before, the false dawn, another wasted opportunity by company that really should have the capability to deliver exactly what's needed... Someone sooner or later will get the mix of price/technical capability/functionality/build quality and that "oh ahh" image we all want just right - and I'll be first in line to buy it!

As I posted in a different thread, Sony knows exactly the customer to which it is pitching the NEX FAMILY. Just Apple knew exactly for whom the iPad was aimed at. In both cases the key was what to leave off. This is how a company creates a new niche. A new set of buyers! This is how a company grows faster than the replacement market. The NEX is in the top 3 cameras sold in Japan, from nothing, in one year. I suspect the iPad has done the same for Apple.

In both cases a customer has two alternatives: buy a more expensive model from the same company or a buy another brand.

The point of having a marketing program is to convince you that you really really do not want to buy from another company. Marketing works on your emotions. Good marketing begins with creating a design upon which it can create emotion. Style, not functionality, is today about 75% of the job. Today, the remaining 25% is affiliation (Avid really uses this) and aspirational (FCP uses this) messages. IF Sony marketing does it job well, very few will switch sides.

There are, in the end, very few who will look at technology and refuse to buy an FS100 because it doesn't have the ND filter wheel needed to get a shallow DOF and to avoid diffraction from the aperture being too small. Trust me, NEX buyers do not have any understanding of these concepts! I read their posts every day. When I try to solve their video problems using such concepts they blank out. They have no understanding of photography. Sony took great pains to be sure the NEX cameras had only TWO buttons.

The VG10 has more buttons, but I'm willing to bet the average buyer never presses any.

And, the average FS100 buyer will treat the camera as a camcorder. They may be puzzled why they don't get a shallow DOF in bright light. But, this will not matter because in most all situations they will get better color and lower noise images than they do with any other camcorder. And, they have the coolest looking camcorder ever, man.

For everyone on this list, there will be a 1000 or 10000 who will fall in love the FS100 and buy it.

Lastly, the biggest problems buyers will find are that they will not be able to smoothly zoom while shooting and the camera will not AF on anything moving rapidly. (Sometimes it won't find focus at all.) Try explaining this is because the NEX uses Contrast AF and not Phase AF as does their camcorder. I'll bet there are several here who do not know the NEX use C-AF and if they do -- have no idea how either works. And, have no idea why I might recommend never using C-AF when shooting a tree.

PS: those who buy an adaptor and A-mount lenses will quickly find that if they use AF -- and they will try to use AF even if they will never admit to it -- it takes 5 to 10 seconds to obtain focus on a STATIC object.

You buy the camera that does what you want. The lack of internal NDs is well down my list of needs; so no petition signature from me. Being able to use my Zeiss primes is very attractive, and they are fully manual. Good AF is about last; a capability I think unreliable in all cameras and never use (yes, really). But if you rely on AF, then of course it is important for your work. Why the anxious hassle? You're not forced to buy this camera.

If Sony asked me what I want as an indie film maker then I would ask for.

A box with the new S35 chip 10 bit sdi out with HDMI out for a monitor. Full resolution 10 stop camera with gamma curves peaking zebras ect.. Don't want any clever gimics that cut down resolution but show a nice pic.

Even though it would be nice I don't need an LCD just a socket to plug one in or ND filters even a crappy mic will do.

But I'm not going to get that am I.

After years of manufacturers holding technology back, new companies have sprung up to fill in the gaps already the camera manufacturers are losing market share to entreprenuers making cameras recording devices monitors film adapters and all kinds of add ons that fill in the gap But manufacturers are determined to keep the markets separate for the professionals who are happy to pay a premium to keep the masses out and the status quo goes on. Rocky waters ahead for them then. Specially if Jim Jannard really fulfills his objectives.

Wonder how soon it will be before you can build your own from off the shelf parts anyway. China?.

Once Sony and its XBR built-in Japan TVs were king. Then Sony image quality fell and Toshiba got the great reviews. Once folks realized that others could build great TVs -- the magic of the Sony name was gone. When HDTVs started to be sold, things got worse for Sony as Samsung began outselling them with a "as good as Sony" picture. Then from nowhere Vizeo started outselling both of them. That's not to say their image quality was better, but to say that the Chinese went from a silent builder of products for the Japanese to active designers. Same with HTC.

I see Japan becoming irrelevant in the world of electronics. American companies like Apple and RED will design products that are better than what Japan will design. (That's not say the govt. backed research labs in Japan will not look further into the future than will American companies.) And then the products will be built just as cheaply as the Japanese can in China.

At the same time, the Chinese will begin designing their own products. Sometimes only for domestic consumption, sometimes for third-world countries, and the best of them designing for the USA and Europe. Right now Sony has a great semiconductor facility. It can build a sensor chip no one else can and keep it to itself -- or sell it to Nikon and/or JVC. But, there is no reason to believe that Chinese companies will not develop their own labs. Once CMOS imaging chips become no more special than CPU or GPU chips -- which is the reason CMOS is so attractive -- then any "camera" company will have access to sensors. At that point, it's design and marketing that create winners.

RED has shown that it is possible to design products that match what shooters want. Nothing is "held back." It has also shown it is very good at free marketing. And, slowly it is working-out how to implement on its goals.

There is another problem facing the "old" electronics companies. What happens if the things they are good at become irrelevant. The obvious is downloading and streaming video. If that kills BD, there goes a business that started with magnetic tape. Innovations that are game changers continue to come from the USA. (The F65 is a very expensive response to RED.)

Innovations that are game changers continue to come from the USA. (The F65 is a very expensive response to RED.)

The F65 is a lot more than a response to RED. It uses an almost opposite philosophy to RED. RED have very cleverly taken off the shelf sensors designed for other imaging applications and adapted them to create a high quality camera(s) that they market as 4k, but in reality produces an image that is sub 4k resolution. RED are to be congratulated for their clever marketing and for producing an outstanding camera system at a never before seen price, but it's not without it's issues which is why IMHO the market is very often still using alternatives that often cost a lot more.

The F65 uses a sensor that is capable of producing an 8k image, a sensor designed from the ground up for cinematography applications. The 12bit raw sensor data is recorded and from that a 4k resolution (or 2k or HD) image is produced. The images contain an incredible level of detail without the need for any enhancement such as detail correction. There is also minimal noise and grain and dynamic range is said to be as good as film. It is a true 4k system without any compromises. The F65 is a game changer as it has the potential to offer image quality that is superior to 35mm film.

Of course at this level the big issue will be lenses as most PL glass does not have high enough resolution for a full 4k system let alone 8k.

Game changers continue to come from the Far East. The Canon 5D is a game changer, The EX1 was another, as will be the FS-100 IMHO. It's easy to forget that while the designers at Apple etc might well create amazing devices with innovative form or function, the building blocks inside those devices, the semiconductors etc are still more often than not designed elsewhere.

RED may argue about using the off the shelf sensors bit, although I gather their latest sensors are made in Israel.

As I understand it the RED sensors were developed for Israeli military applications which is one of the reasons why there is so much secrecy around the supplier of the sensors, but that could be incorrect information, I have no way of verifying it. I doubt very much that a company such as RED could afford to develop their own unique sensor. Sensor development is hugely expensive compared to most other electronics these days, where the common practice is to take off the shelf FPGA's and similar and simply program them to do what you need. If you are making something in very large numbers then the development costs are more bearable, but for the kinds of numbers that RED ships I just don't believe it would make financial sense. The sensor in the Arri Alexa is a customised Cypress sensor. The use of off the shelf sensors is not necessarily a bad thing but is quite different to a ground up, application specific design.

I doubt very much that a company such as RED could afford to develop their own unique sensor.

I have to to disagree. With a self-made billionaire at the helm, RED
brings nearly limitless financial resources to bear. The company is
not publicly traded and isn't monetarily beholden to anyone except
the whim of its owner, who has a proven track record of financial
success. Money is the *least* of RED's problems.

If you are making something in very large numbers then the development costs are more bearable, but for the kinds of numbers that RED ships I just don't believe it would make financial sense.

And yet RED has already shipped more UHD cameras than all other
manufacturers combined (something like 7,000+ units), and is poised
to do that again with their next model. Perhaps those aren't very large
numbers, but clearly they are making, selling and shipping in quantities
that far exceed the output of similar products by other manufacturers.

Very sorry I missed seeing you at NAB, by the way -- one of my very
few regrets about this year's show.

As I understand it the RED sensors were developed for Israeli military applications which is one of the reasons why there is so much secrecy around the supplier of the sensors, but that could be incorrect information, I have no way of verifying it.

I imagine there was collaboration with a sensor manufacturer, whether or not it was/is stand alone or customised based on military technology eg photo reconnaissance applications, high speed photography who knows.

Hi Chris, yes missed hooking up at NAB, it was a very busy show for me.

You have a very good point about RED's unusual financial situation, so I guess all bets may be off.

The F65 is a lot more than a response to RED.

Game changers continue to come from the Far East. The Canon 5D is a game changer.


Nevertheless, the F65 follows by several years the RED ONE. In that amount of time, Sony had to come up something more than could be done inside the RED ONE. They called on the semiconductor division to give them an edge by creating "true" 4K. Despite everyone else, according to Sony, offering "not true" 4K the F65 may have little impact because it is like the jet packs we all thought we would have when we saw them demoed decades ago. Think of the F65 as an "image" product created to show the world Sony "still can."

I think of the F65 as I do GM's Volt. Clearly the best, yet not going save GM -- whose stock -- even with the Japanese worried about building cars -- is much lower than when they went public.


I think Juan showed quite well that the 5D is a terrible example of a video shooting device. In my iBook on DSLRs I talked about how row skipping is a horrible way to create video. Allan Roberts, after looking at the 5D aliasing concluded it should not be used for video. The introduction of the VW bug was gamechanger in the same way. It opened an option, but was a poor car.

A "true" gamechanger not only opens doors it is also a great product. The first iPad is a perfect example. And, when you look for these kinds of great products/services you look at Apple, Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Google, Intel, Netflix, and all the bio-tek companies. None of these come Japan. Sony has failed at everything related to phones and the Internet. I've bought my last VAIO laptop years ago.

If you have teenagers -- see if they use anything from Japan beyond the PS and Wii. But, Apple is working on this issue too. SEE BELOW:

Earlier today 9to5Mac reported ... that iPhone 4s outfitted with Apple's A5 chips have been seeded with developers at certain "high-level gaming outfits."

The graphics capabilities of the A5 are outstanding, with a graphics processing unit touted as nine times as powerful as the one in the original iPad.

Apparently, Apple's reasoning for seeding the developers with the high-powered hardware is that the company wishes to make speedy game performance a selling point for the next-generation device. What better way to do that than to take a few best-selling, graphics-intensive games and supercharge them prior to the launch of the iPhone 5?

With regard to the comparison of Sony and RED as camera makers, I think one of the biggest obstacles to innovation is the weight of the business itself. RED is no longer a fledgling company - it has created enough business gravity that it now has to deal with the beginnings of the same bureaucracy that Sony, Panasonic, Canon, and JVC struggle with. Not that it has nearly an equal load, but the success of the RED One is as much a challenge to overcome as it is a benefit.

Money is a challenge for all of these companies, and even if they claim that obsolescence is not a factor - I would disagree. Technology is a slippery thing, and anyone who claims to have "bottled" innovation is probably selling some snake oil as well.

Its one thing to sell and support 7,000 cameras. It is something entirely different to sell and support 70,000 or more. Scarlet has the potential to break RED's back if the business end is not rev'd up to handle the mechanics involved with those numbers. And with no help from a dealer network...

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services (http://www.omegabroadcast.com)

I believe the world will prove to be big enough to support Sony, Red and Arri just fine. Each company has its strengths and weaknesses. It has become clear to me that no one manufacturer is going to walk away with the high end market.