Hi,

I recently bought my first camera, an Sony HDR-HC1. It's not very good in real low light but it works great in daylight and if it's lit up. I understand basically how shallow DOF-adapters out there work but I have read something about that the camera must be good in low light. Is this true? I will only use the adapter for stuff where I have sufficient light.

I have also looked at the adapter at http://www.adapterplace.com/ so I might go for that and also buy a step up ring to 58 mm.

Any ideas? Or is it gonna be a waste of time/money?

Regards, Fredrik.

You don't necessarily need a camera that is good in low light. It's just better because with most adapters you will lose light. You should be fine making an adapte though.

I heard great things about the HD HC1, I would love to see the shots with it after you get an adapter going.

Thanks for posting that link. I hadn't heard about that one yet, I guess this brings to at three the number lowcost, commercial-production 35mm adapters out there, with the others being the Guerrilla 35 and the M2 (formerly called the Micro35.

Are you reffering to the Letus35?
Will that fit the HC1 out of the box?
I've been looking for something like this.

Yes I am. I have it on order an it will take a couple of weeks to get it. I am gonna use a 37 mm to 58 mm step up ring. It might work. I am not sure but I have ordered it and will see. When it works fine I will send out some pics and I think the owner will publish some stuff to. I promise I will let you know as soon as I have tested it.

OK, let me get this straight.

Buy one of these
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=114823
and one of these
http://www.adapterplace.com/

Attach the 37 to 58 step up ring to my 37mm HC1.

Attach the Letus35 adaptor to the step up ring.

Buy an SLR 35mm lens that fits an FD mount and attach it to the Letus.

Is that it?

I have also looked at the adapter at http://www.adapterplace.com/Isn't that site owned by Quyen Le? If so, he is a member here, and you can open a dialog with him directly on this board.

Kevin,

To be honest, the Letus35 has not been tested on the HC1 yet. Fredrik-Larsson will be the first one to test the Letus35 on HC1. I think it's still too early to say anything at this time. I will work with Fredrik-Larsson to bring you a result in about a week or two. Thank you.

Quyen

I am looking forward to it. Thank you.

Fredrik-Larsson

How the Letus35 works on HC1? any image? Thanks.

Quyen

It's been messy over here. I have been sick, had lots of work and then I had to finish the DVC3-challenge so I didn't have any time to learn and use the Letus. But I am well now and finding time over to do the "fun stuff". I did a couple of simple tests and as you will notice I haven't really "learned" everything yet.

On http://www.apollologic.com/movies/004/letus35hc1test.wmv you have a 19 MB download. I intend to put up a better one as soon as I have been out and shooting more. I will also send you a tape and DVD as we discussed per e-mail.

What you will notice is that the HC1 needs a lot of light to give good pictures. I played with it near a railway yard. I got a nice clip of the fence. I am going back there at daytime to get better pictures. I am also looking for nice spots to try it on and I hope to get some people to be able to test the depth on.

I had vinegretting on one of the corners. This was due to that I didn't see it. There is a icon there so it's not very obvious. I thougth I fixed on the railway yard but there were still a small piece of it. So I need to zoom more. But I am aware of it now so next time I will look closer in that corner.

The lense is Canon FD 1.8 50 mm. I have taken some pictures of them together so I will provide them as well. The vibrating sound is heard since the mics are just behind it. Some kind of "silencing" would be nice. The mics on the camera aren't the best so I will get a Beachtek-adapter and that will probably solve that the mics are so close.

It would be nice to be able to rotate the interior rectangle cause then there would be more space/lesser chance of vinegretting. I think you can see from the opening picture how it looks when it's screwed on tight.

The pictures are shaky since I am mainly goofing around. There is also one shot where I forgot to turn on the vibrating glass. But I speak all through the tape and try to tell what I am doing. And yeah, I figure out that it's upside down the hard way. I knew it but I was wondering why it was upside down... I don't think you can flip the LCD-screen using a magnet. I tried but it seems like it's a switch.

Okay, that's all for now. If anyone want to see some specific shot I will try to fix it. I am going to try to test on some people and probably some naturepictures. Expect more in a few days.

/Fredrik.

You can align the adapter by one of the screws. Unscrew it a little bit then pull the macro lens off the adapter then put it on the right way and push it in. Tight the screw and it's done. Let me know if you still have problem with aligning the adapter, thanks.

Quyen

Brilliant! I kept the ring attached to my camera and then released the screw and putted it back on perfectly. I knew that there were something like that. And thanks for the prompt reply. I think it would be nice for future users if you put up some pictures of how to do it. Even though it's a simple task it's not very obvious.

Fredrik.

How's your setup going? Any new footage or reports?

I was out recording a bit yesterday but I found a lot of the pictures have a black line on the upper side of the picture. I hadn't zoomed in enough so I got that effect. It's way passed bedtime here now but I will upload some movie tomorrow and post it here.

Here is a new video (12 mb):

http://www.apollologic.com/movies/004/letus35hc1test2.wmv

I am using a tripod but these pictures are quite shaky when i zoom. I think it's because I rest my hand's weight on the lense and the connector between the Letus and the HC1 is like a thin point so it wiggles a little bit. Since it's zoomed in it's more sensitive for movements. The HC1 zoom is zoomed to more than 50 % to get rid of the black edges.

Anyway I need a lot of more playtime to get better results. Also note that this was recorded around 4 pm in good weather condition but it looses a lot of light...

I take it it's Autumn in the northern hemisphere. We are just about to get summer here in Australia but that diffused light you have looks nice.

Apart from the encoding quality it looked alright. Did you get much detail loss? I suspect zooming in that much with the HC1 you would lose more and more of the original picture thus less detail [?].

I ordered the Letus for an HC1 that I have access to. Looks like I need 2 step up rings to get to 58mm. do you think it will pose a problem?

Fredrik-Larsson

Where do you see the black edge? top/ bottom/ left/ right? You can align it to the center by the screw and the macro lens. Please let me know if you can fix it or not. The video looks nice. What lens do you use? Thanks.

Quyen

I take it it's Autumn in the northern hemisphere. We are just about to get summer here in Australia but that diffused light you have looks nice.

Apart from the encoding quality it looked alright. Did you get much detail loss? I suspect zooming in that much with the HC1 you would lose more and more of the original picture thus less detail [?].

I ordered the Letus for an HC1 that I have access to. Looks like I need 2 step up rings to get to 58mm. do you think it will pose a problem?

Yes, it's getting autumn over here. Though it was a very nice sunday when I took the pictures. I had a slight hangover though.

I haven't really though of any loss. I think it looks okay and that the shallow DOF effect is there.

I don't think that will be a problem and that was the route I was going to take.

Where do you see the black edge? top/ bottom/ left/ right? You can align it to the center by the screw and the macro lens. Please let me know if you can fix it or not. The video looks nice. What lens do you use? Thanks.

I only took the best clips. You might see something on the top of the clip. I think I wasn't zooming in enough. I think that the viewfinder crops the edges of what it actually records a bit so next time I will zoom more.

I use a Canon FD lense, 50 mm 1.8.

WOW Fredrik,thaz some nice R&D here.. can some put some pictures of the rig? I cant imagine HC1 with the setup. The Letus35 likes one mean looking device! Btw,I noticed this seems to be a little distortion on the outer edges of the video,is that very apparent in high res?

Besides that, what kinda settings do u need to do on the HC1?

Check out

http://www.apollologic.com/movies/004/hc1letus1.jpg
http://www.apollologic.com/movies/004/hc1letus2.jpg

Yes, there is some distortion. That's due to me not zooming in properly. I need to zoom in slightly more than 50 % to get rid of all the black edges. Unfortunately it's a bit hard to notice it in the viewfinder since you have an awkward lookingposition and I think that the viewfinder doesn't show everything it records.

So far I have needed a step up ring to 58 mm. Aligned so that the rectangle inside (dunno what it's called) is fine. I think I needed to zoom in more first. Basically that's it.

I am currently trying different stuff out so I will come with more updates as I go along.

Quyen, feel free to use these pictures if you like.

Thanks for the picts!Wow the rig is really cool (intimating to certain extend!) Ha ha looks like a sub machine gun.Well, what u have mention seems pretty straight forward.Get the 58 to 35mm adapter+Letus35+35mm lenses and wah lah!

The only prob I see is when u r focusing on the 35mm lenses,it would be difficult to do it without any vibration as the camera would be tilted to the front.Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

The only prob I see is when u r focusing on the 35mm lenses,it would be difficult to do it without any vibration as the camera would be tilted to the front.Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Well, it's not tilted but I think it's certainly sensitive to any movements. If you have a lot of muscles (or have big clumsy hands, take your pick ;) ) it sways a little bit. I can imagine a smaller camera and with HD as well is a lot sensitive to any little movement. I have an idea on a simple stabilisationrod that I will build to see what it can do. If it works out I will take pictures of that to.

Thanks for that last post. I was wondering if the unsupported design was ridgid enough, and you implies that it is not.

This means that the 250 USD extra for the Micro35 is probably a good investment, as this device has rails.

De bedste fra den anden side af sundet

Well, for the HC1 it sways a little but I think that for bigger cameras it might be better since this is probably caused by the step-upring. Having a 58 mm camera would probably fit perfect. But I am going to investigate this further to verify that this is the case.

I think that Quyen is working on some support-rail for the Letus35 so if you are not in a hurry you might want to wait.

Jos, if you want to see it in real life you can drop by Malmö anytime or if I take a trip to copenhagen. I am also looking to get to know other filmmakers in the Malmö-Copenhagen region to work with or just exchange ideas.

Frederik.

I'll give you a signal next time I'm in Malmø. My wife is swedish (Östersund), so we have to get supplies of Kalles Caviar from time to time.

My HC1 should be in tomorrow. I'll be pimping it up, and was sort of considering a device like Letus35. But I am a little worried about putting too much strain on the filter thead, and the whole contraption has to be stable.

I will wait until Letus 35.1 with support is out. Especially if it stays in the same pricerange.

Keep up the good work.

Fredrik- do you get alot of vignetting around the edges of the GG when zoomed all the way out? Because I do, I have to zoom in quite a bit to avoid it, but even then, the center of the image is brighter than the edges.

Yes I do. I think I need a little more than 50 % of zoom to get it real good. Is that similar to yours?

Just an aesthetics design note Quyen,

Try to put that adjustment screw somewhere else on the perimeter of the adapter. GL1/2 users can't access the screwhole when it's at the top because the microphone hangs over the lens there, and I'm sure there are other model cameras that do the same thing.

And also, add some extra wire onto the battery pack. I'd love to take some weight off the adapter and put the batteries on my tripod or palm strap. Regardless of the design of these adapters, anything involving plastic or malleable metal will bend and there is shake, however minimal. Putting the batteries somewhere else would help balance out the camera.

Yes thats similar to mine, but even when I zoom in as far as it goes (without getting blurry) the edges are still noticeably darker. Is there any way to fix this? Also, does the footage still look like HD to you? To me it looks like SD which kind of makes the extra money I spent on the HC1 worthless if I want to use this adapter.

Kevin, Fredrik

Base on your discussions, I guess my adapter doesn't work good with HC1 then? Can you 2 send me a full frame capture so I can suggest of any necessary change to make the design works better for you? Thanks.

Quyen

Queyen, I'll fix some samples tomorrow. I will do a set where I remove the lense during recording so the quality without the adapter is also visible.

I kind of expected to loose some degree of quality so I am quite happy with the look. I am mainly working with DV-workflow so I haven't taken a look at the HDV-pictures yet. I figure that it must be the groundglass that takes down the quality a bit. Actually it can be the lense and macroadapter to. From what I've found out the HD-lenses is of a lot higher quality than SD-lenses since they are covering like 3 times more area than a normal SD-lense does on the same.

I have sent Queyen a sample to look at. Maybe he has some opinion on how to fix it.

Since I am no expert on this I am wondering if the vinegretting is caused by the distance to the GG? So for cameras with smaller optics, like the HC1, they would have to be closer to the GG? I have a couple of macro-filters that I can try to put on to see how they work out.

It might be that, since we have to zoom in so much, the grain of the GG is getting very large and ruining what would be a sharper picture. If the vignetting can be fixed then we wouldn't have to zoom in all the way, this might fix the picture quality issue.
Ill try to get you a full frame capture sometime today.

Fredrik

Got your footage. I doubt very much from the beginning that HC1 will work good with Letus35 without vignetting because of small front glass element. Zoom in could get you some good footage but we don't call it works if you don't get full 24x36 frame without vignetting. An extension tube about 50-55mm will improve vignetting. Please try and let me know if it works for you, thanks.

Quyen

Sent this to Quyen by e-mail:
I had a tube that I tried a few minits ago. I figure that using a tube the macro-lense should be closer to the camera and not to the GG? What happens then is that it gets even smaller. I also felt that image turned worse since I need to zoom in more. I did test by just adding a tube and kept the macro where it was but that wasn't good either.

I almost got the complete frame when I used 3 37mm macro filters (+4, +2, +1) attached. If I had another +2 or something it would probably be perfect. With them on I only need to zoom about 25 %.

Can it be that my camera need to be closer to the GG? I mean this is optimized for 58 mm. Cameras with bigger lensewidth might need that PVC tube and smaller cameras need to be closer? Or is my mind just playing tricks on me? I tried to get the macro on the adapter closer but of course there is a stop that keeps it from sliding in closer.

I will take some pictures when I play with the tube and macros again. It's better to check them out to have "scientific" material to refer to.

BTW! What macro is in there?

Have you had any progress, Fredrik?

Sorry, it's gonna be some busy days ahead. Hopefully I will find some time on saturday.

I did a little shoot last night with better lighting.
I zoomed in as far as could while still being able to get a focus.
I don't see any real vignetting, however the lighting is uneven and may compensate for it.
The image looks sharper than my previous tests.
Conclusion: Adequate lighting is a must for the Letus35+HC1 combination.
But I'd still like to see the vignetting reduced when not zoomed in all the way.

How do the macro filters work? Is it the increased distance from the GG or do they even out the light?

The HC1 does suffer from low light challenges so maybe that is it. If anyone wants a +7 +10 macro lens 43mm , I am selling mine, so let me know.

Thanks for that last post. I was wondering if the unsupported design was ridgid enough, and you implies that it is not.

This means that the 250 USD extra for the Micro35 is probably a good investment, as this device has rails.

De bedste fra den anden side af sundet

It's a mistake to say that all unsupported designs aren't rigid enough. I have a small plastic camcorder with a 37mm thread and another prosumer camcorder with a 72mm thread, and the big camera is very solid while the little one is pretty flexible, when comparing the same 35mm adapter on both cams.

This means that the 250 USD extra for the Micro35 is probably a good investment, as this device has rails.

Hmm..the Letus35 is $300...add $250 you get $550. You wont be getting any rail support for the Micro35 at that price, only the adapter.

Adapter and rails together sell for $850

I can tell you this much, you get no ghosting with the Letus35. The same can't be said for the Micro35

Hi Tony.

You are right - just checked.

And just made a quick search on BH. Rods can be found around 100 $, but my issue is that in HDV things just have to be more stable. And why use 350 $ on a product that is not as mechanical stable as can be? Of course you can use some time tinkering with it in order to get it more ridgid, but I prefer that designed into the product from the start.

This is early days, and hopefully the Letus35 gets a rod-system.

I am absolutely positive about the project, and I sincerly hope that the product will be a sucess. I am just more inclined to version 1.5.

I have had no problems with rigidness on my very small HC1.

Hmm..the Letus35 is $300...add $250 you get $550. You wont be getting any rail support for the Micro35 at that price, only the adapter.

Adapter and rails together sell for $850

I can tell you this much, you get no ghosting with the Letus35. The same can't be said for the Micro35


actually tony, the M2 comes with 2 different GG so you can swap them out when needed. for example, if you wanted to shoot outside put in the M2G element, but if you want to shoot indoors, put in the M2 element. the reason for this, is the M2G element loses some light, so its better for outdoors because you dont have to light it up, etc... using the M2 element indoors is good because it loses little to no light, so that works great for indoor shots. you get alot more options with the M2 than other adapters that i've noticed.

but, there are other adapters out there for those trying to hit a certain price point with lenses, adapter, achromat, rails, mattebox, follow focus, LCD monitor, camera, tripod, etc... its good that theres other price ranges and competition out there, it makes every company strive to make their very best product and keep improving. there is no miracle adapter out there... not even the P+S technik; i've seen better footage on this message board with homemade adapters than i have with the P+S... but then again, image quality and the "look" that the adapter gives the image is VERY subjective.

actually tony, the M2 comes with 2 different GG so you can swap them out when needed.

I didn't mean to bash the M2 it seems like a solid adapter. Although I have seen examples with ghosting on both GG elements, maybe it was a user error.

Although it does seem to be an issue with this specific adapter, but in defense of the M2 I have seen footage that has no ghosting whatsoever.

On the flip side of that the Letus35 and Guerilla35 have no ghosting issues.

Jos,

For the budget conscious the Letus35 is a great choice. The vibrating focusing screen is actually a better idea than a rotating GG IMHO.

Do I think the Letus35 is perfect? No, not at all. I think the focusing screen could be a little bigger. They could use a better achromat (Which I hear will be updated in the newer versions) But the design is so simplistically brilliant that refinement over time will make this one of the best adapters on the market.

For $300 dollars give it a shot, buy a rod support system if you don't like it sell it and by the M2. The risk you take with the Letus35 is minimal.

I didn't mean to bash the M2 it seems like a solid adapter. Although I have seen examples with ghosting on both GG elements, maybe it was a user error.


comments, feedback, etc..., all help, so im sure redrock and quyen both appreiciate it.

you have seen ghosting with both imaging elements on the micro35? do you have a link to some footage i can view where you see it on the M2G element?

I forget exactly where, but I believe it may have been on the M2 boards. they were pics that claimed no ghosting, but if you look in the highlights its there. Not as noticeable,but there.

But as I said in my previous post I have seen M2 stuff with no ghosting.

I believe certain lighting conditions effect each GG differently.

It could be the shooters, but The other adapters don't need secondary ground glass to avoid ghosting ...period. That's my original point.

Properly used I think the M2 gets great footage most of the time.

Who knows, maybe I'm biased. I'm a big fan of Quyens design. The adapter you get is definitely worth more than you pay for it. Even though (to my understanding) it is not a finalized design.

One of these days I'll post a pic of my homemade "Rod System" (i.e. stabilizer). You guys willl get a good chuckle out of it ...but it works!!!