hi all
just subscribed to dvi, cause im looking for some advice from people who use these machines. im wanting to buy a mac so that i can start cutting a documentary ive been shooting (im more a director than an editor, but these days, we've got to do it all, right??), was thinking of getting the new g4 powerbook (superdrive 1.67ghz) until i met a computer person who said i should rather get the new ibook (1.42ghz, think its also a superdrive) which has all the same functions/ capabilities, its just marginally slower. the price difference is considerable, as you probably already know.
what do you think? is this good advice?
of course im wanting the machine to last as long as possible. would the powerbook have a longer working life span?
why is the powerbook really that much more expensive than the ibook? (surely its not because of the metallic vs plastic casing?)
also, i would need to get a big external hard drive, any suggestions as to what to buy?
is there anything else i would need, in terms of cables or other gadgets that one never thinks of, until something doesnt work without one?
for the moment, i will be importing the footage via a sony pd150. so obviously a firewire cable. and ive got FCP3. What else would I need to get?
Hope you more experienced and informed mac/ fcp users might be able to guide me a bit. Id really appreciate it.
Thanks and look forward to hearing from you
Jeanette

Welcome Jeanette - I look forward to hearing more from you!

This topic was kicked around recently; see the following thread for starters, then maybe you'll have some specific questions we can help with:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=48506

But the truth is, unless you really need a laptop it's not a very good choice for FCP. The G4's are getting really long in the tooth. Basically you're dealing with 3 year old technology. This is the main reason Apple is making the switch to Intel - IBM just couldn't provide state of the art chips for laptops. An G5 is a much, much better choice. Best would be one of the towers (Power Mac dual processor) but an iMac is still almost twice the speed of a Powerbook.

Regarding FCP 3, that will also really limit you. I was one of the real holdouts with FCP 3, I didn't upgrade to FCP 4.5 until last winter. But the problem is, FCP 3 is really a MacOS 9 application which doesn't take full advantage of OS X. Sure, it runs under OSX 10.3 just fine. But FCP 4.5 literally runs circles around it, especially in its realtime capability (applying transitions and filters to clips without needing to render in order to view) and also rendering speed.

But the real bummer for you is that people say FCP won't run under Mac OS X 10.4 ("Tiger") and that will be installed on any new Mac you buy. If you go to Apple's own FCP forum this has been discussed a lot recently. There are some hacks to help with this, but you're going to be forcing a square peg into a round hole. I think you should budget another $400 to upgrade to FCP 5 which will give you full Tiger compatability and also a much more responsive system. If you want your system to "last as long as possible" then you should start out with the latest software.

Regarding the iBooks, they have a lot of bang for the buck and if money is really tight you could go that way. But the Powerbooks are much, much nicer. For starters, the screens are way better and give you more room to work (1280x854 vs 1024x768 on the 15" model). They also support dual monitors and have a PC card slot which is nice for a 2nd firewire card. But like I said, the desktop machines are considerably faster and also much more bang for the buck. You pay a big premium for a laptop unfortunately.

Oh also - unfortunately - before buying a 15" powerbook you should read the following:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45834

Don't let this scare you away though, they are great machines. But you really need to buy Applecare. Hopefully Apple will soon acknowledge these problems and come up with a fix. A class action lawsuit is already in the making and that ought to provide a little incentive...

hi boyd
thanks a lot for the feedback. ill check the links youve attached.
i need to make a decision about whether a portable system is that important. im travelling a lot at the moment, so it makes sense for now.
a question about buying a powerbook in the usa (a friend will be there in a few weeks and could buy one for me)- does it come with a worldwide gaurantee? im based mostly in south africa and someone there said that goods not purchased in sa would not be covered there. ive contacted mac about it but have heard nothing yet. maybe you know.
so, if i do decide to go portable (thank you for pointing out the imac, seems like a great machine. i know nothing about the operating systems, yet..), is the ibook an option in your opinion?
thanks a lot again
best wishes
jeanette

Regarding warranty, I think you'll find the answers on Apple's website; use their search function. There's a lot of legalese to read through, but a quick look turned this up:

http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/hardware.html

If the product is portable, meaning that it can operate independently without a power cord, you may obtain warranty service worldwide. However, service will be limited to the options available in the country where service is requested. If the product is not portable, warranty service may be restricted to the country where the product is purchased. Service options, parts availability and response times will vary according to country. You may be responsible for shipping and handling charges if the product cannot be serviced in the country it is in. In accordance with applicable law, Apple may require that you furnish proof of purchase details and/or comply with registration requirements before receiving warranty service.

The operating system is the same on every Macintosh. They work the same so that isn't and issue in choosing a model.

The G4 iBooks certainly give you the most power for the price, IF you want a portable. I bought one for my daughter last year and she loves it. But her boyfriend liked it so much she had to keep taking it away from him, so he ended up getting rid of his Windows laptop and getting an iBook also!

Off the top of my head these are the disadvantages compared to the Powerbook. These assume the 15" 1.67ghz Powerbook (list $2,300) vs the 14" 1.42ghz iBook (list $1,300):

--Plastic case feels kind of cheap

--Low resolution screen 1024x768. The 14" model has the same resolution as the 12"; the dots are just bigger

--Slower processor (1.42ghz vs 1.67ghz)

--Slower internal bus (142mhz vs 167mhz)

--Less RAM capacity (1.5gb vs 2gb)

--Slower, smaller hard drive (4200RPM vs 5400 RPM)

--Slower ethernet (100mb vs 1gb)

--Slower graphics card with less VRAM (32MB vs 64MB)

--Slower firewire (400 vs 800)

--Doesn't support a second independent screen, however there is a hack to do this although Apple does not support it.

--No PC card slot.

I pretty much agree with Boyd.

I've got an iBook 12" and my wife has a PowerBook 15"...there's no question that the PowerBook is more appropriate for editing. The extra screen space alone is enough to make it worth it, you can setup the viewer and the canvas sizes at or near 100% and still have plenty of room for the timeline and browser windows; you just can't do that with the iBook.

Now about the portability...like Boyd said, if you don't NEED portability, then get a desktop. You'll end up with MUCH more machine for the same (or less!) money.

I use a 20" iMac G5 as my main editing computer and it is WAY more powerful than the PowerBook G4...it's an entirely different class of computer. Plus with the widescreen 16:9 monitor (1680x1050) on the iMac G5, I have all the room I need for editing. And the whole shebang was only $1800 bucks...less than a 15" PowerBook. And of course, you could setp down to the 17" iMac; it'll still be more powerful than the PowerBook and the screen is still plenty big.

Now granted, a Dual G5 PowerMac would be best, but that's going to cost more than a PowerBook.

thank you both for your valuable feedback. i will do some more homework and then decide. i really appreciate your input, thanks for a great website
ill be back soon
best wishes and good weekend
jeanette

For comparison, I use a iMac G5, with 250GB intrenal harddrive, and a La Cie 500GB firewire 400 hard drive. This is much faster than a G4 laptop, and about half the price of an equivalent Power Mac. I use the DV Studio Pro bundle (includes fcp) on the mac which works well together.

I strongly recomend partitioning the on board drive so as to have two separate installations of OS X Tiger. This will enable you to use the second partition to recover if you have a system crash (has happened to me twice seriously in 6 months).

Keep all your data on the external drive. Back up the external hard drive on another external hard drive. This way you won't risk loosing your work.

Buy a copy of Disk Warrior and reuild your directories every weeks or two. This will reduce the chance of time. When you step away from the machine, log out. All the crashes I've experienced happened when I left applications open. This will cost a bit of time when you re-open applications, but it will save massive time wasting caused by crashes.

Oh, and make sure you have a competent tech suport guy available, so you can concentrate on shooting & editing.

I strongly recomend partitioning the on board drive so as to have two separate installations of OS X Tiger.

I used to do this with MacOS 9, but haven't under OS X. I really haven't followed the debate on this issue, but the last time I checked it seemed the consensus opinion was against partitioning your startup drive, or at least that was the case for laptops.

I wonder if it's the iMac, your mix of applications, or Tiger? I don't think I've ever experienced a crash that serious under OS X in the 2 years that I've used it (currently using Panther). Of course I can't disagree with the idea of having a backup disk, but not sure that partitioning the system drive is the way to go...

Jeanette, I use a 12" iBook G4 (1.25 Ghz) with 512MB of RAM and an external firewire disk (80GB western digital in a cheap firewire case). I run Final Cut Express HD and I have to say I'm pretty happy with the setup so far.

I've used it to edit numerous short films as well as a feature-length documentary and I can't really complain about the performance. The rendering times seem long on occasion but I don't really have anything to compare them to other than my old Windows editing box (a 1.xGhz Athalon running Vegas Video) and it seems to be just slightly faster.

I wanted something portable because I use the iBook for recording audio (at least I used to, I may use the audio inputs on my new camera) as well as for scopes, etc. The iBook is tough, the plastic case takes more abuse than you would expect, especially compared to the powerbooks.

I'd like to throw more RAM at it as well as a faster internal hard disk (the one they come with is notoriously slow) but honestly at this point I'm not feeling a "need" to, and I have other priorities...

Another system I would recommend is the eMac. My co-hort just picked one of these up and for about $1000.00 you get the whole kit, monitor and all. It's a little bit faster than the iBook's processor, it has a much faster disk, slightly more pixels on the screen and better connectivity (two firewire ports instead of one, etc.). It also comes with a dual-layer DVD burner which is nice...

There are several firmware-induced limitations on these machines, like limited ability to drive dual-monitors, but these can be worked around as well...

If you don't need to be portable, I recommend the eMac, you can jam more RAM in it, it's got a faster CPU and you can even build a RAID in it if you really want to get your hands dirty. It has a faster disk subsystem then even the iMac G5 and I find that disk I/O is more important than CPU speed. You can even get one for $799 if you can go without the dvd burner...

Every dollar you save behind the lens is another dollar you can put in front of it, you know?

(Feel free to contact me off-list if you have more specific questions about my setup, etc.)

hi there. i have both a dual 1.8 g5 powermac and a 1.67 g4 15" powerbook. i've done projects on both, but of course i prefer the g5.

the powerbook is good, but i use it more for photoshop and editing photomontages (ken burns type stuff) and animatics (animated storyboards). the rendering time irks me, specially when i know that i have a faster machine at home. then again, i can't take the g5 with me.

that said, if you don't need to be portable, i highly recommend the g5. i put a second video card in mine so i can pump out to 3 monitors. i'm so used to it that it makes editing on my 15" powerbook a bit of a cramp.

also, my powerbook came with 80 gigs, and i'm down to 20 (less than 6 months of use, but then again there are a lot of old projects on it).

with the g5, i slap a new 250gig sata drive for each project and i don't ever feel that i'm running out of disk space.

But the real bummer for you is that people say FCP won't run under Mac OS X 10.4 ("Tiger") and that will be installed on any new Mac you buy.

Just reading some more about this on Apple's website. It seems the issue is that you cannot install FCP3 under Tiger. However, if you upgrade an existing machine which already has FCP3 on it, then you can get it to work (possibly requires some tinkering though).

But if you're buying a new Mac with Tiger pre-installed then that could be problematic.

hi all
thanks once again for all the feedback. im understanding most of what youre talking about, im really pre-novice in the field. as ive said before, im not an editor but am about to embark on a new learning curve in both editing as well as mac sytems.
Jason, thanks for your reply.Your set up sounds interesting to me, mainly because of its simplicity (and at the moment budget is a real consideration for me as well). Because I’m a beginner, I’m really not sure that I need the high-end stuff. And I’m still not convinced that it is worth spending that much more money on a powerbook. I also wouldn’t have anything to compare the speed of the ibook with, unlike most of you “guys” who work on more than one machine. At this point, I want to get a portable system so that I can start cutting a feature documentary on it, and still be able to shoot more up here in Europe before I return to South Africa. SO portable is the way to go for me now. I guess a question would be would the powerbook last longer than the ibook – of course all of these machines or systems need to be replaced after a few years? So, I’m thinking maybe to get a cheaper machine initially for my learning, and maybe get a desktop down the line, when I know what I’m doing.
If I get the new ibook 14” 1.42ghz, would this come with a tiger system and so mean that I couldn’t use FC version 3?
Boyd, could you explain more about the port options (which as you say the ibook doesn’t have).. what does this mean? What is a pc card slot and why is it a disadvantage not to have one? Why would I need a 2nd firewire card?
Pardon my ignorance.. but we all have to start at the beginning..
Thanks again
And look forward to hearing from you
Best
jeanette

As you describe your situation, I think the iBook will suit you fine. I don't think there's any reason to think a Powerbook will last longer than an iBook. However, to protect your investment you really should consider purchasing the AppleCare warranty. This will extend your initial 12 month warranty to 3 years. Check with Apple, but I think you can actually get the warranty anytime within the first 12 months, however if you don't buy it at purchase time then I believe Apple needs to look at your computer and certify it. Unless money is really tight, I'd get Applecare when you make your computer purchase.

PC card slot: not a necissity, just nice to have. You're going to need an external firewire drive to store and edit your projects - you really can't use the internal drive for that. You will also need to plug your camera into a firewire port to capture video to the external drive. Many people can do this without problems, but depending on your exact hardware, you *may* have difficulties using both devices at the same time. It seems most of the time when people have these problems they're using a Canon camcorder. The firewire PC card gives you a second completely independent firewire port which avoids overtaxing the builtin port. That's just a bit of a concern on the iBooks, since they only have one firewire 400 port.

Yes, all Macs now have MacOS X 10.4 "Tiger" preinstalled on them. I suppose you could downgrade it to 10.3 "Panther" if you can still find a copy somewhere. I have no way to know personally, but I'm reading that the FCP 3 installer disks won't work properly under Tiger. But if you downgrade your system to Panther, then you could install FCP3, then upgrade to Tiger. The only concern there is that you might have to buy a copy of both Panther and Tiger. I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect the version that will come with a new iBook may not work as an upgrade, but only as a clean install. You would need to try all this out.

But honestly - I think it's a big mistake to use FCP 3. It's much less responsive than the newer versions and you will spend hours and hours more rendering everything just to see a preview. I'd really suggest you budget $400 and upgrade your copy of FCP 3 to FCP 5. You will need your original FCP 3 disks for the FCP 5 upgrade to work, and an academic copy of FCP 3 won't be upgradeable. But since this is your first experience on the Mac and you're new to editing, you would be handicapping yourself to start out with 4 year old software. Get the current version and you'll have a much better experience.

Good luck... let us know how everything works out!

I just purchased a new ibook with superdrive, and I installed FCE 1.0.1 on it....and it has purred like a kitten. I've had no problems editing....

The only downside I've noticed is the one firewire port....

Plus if your a college student you get a free ipod mini.... :) I took advantage of that!

BTW....the ibook came with idvd 5 and it has been really ease to use. I made a pretty cool menu for my dvd by dragging and dropping some stills from a short I made...It took all of 5 minutes to put it together and it looks good.

:)

Good to see you're getting some good feedback Jeanette,

A few things I wanted to mention if you're budget shopping:

First, seriously consider the 12" ibook over the 14", it's a few hundred dollars cheaper and from a "functional" perspective they are almost identical. They both have the same resolution (1024x768) on the screen, even though the 14" is larger. The 12" is of course smaller and lighter, so if portability is key then it might be worth taking a second look. The 12" is slightly slower from a CPU perpsective but I'm not sure that you'd notice a .1Gzh speed difference in this application...it's only a three hundred dollar difference, but that can get you alot of RAM or a much bigger external drive...

Boyd mentioned having trouble with the one firewire port on the iBook when using a camera and an external firewire disk at the same time and I've heard that as well. I haven't experienced it yet, although I recently bought a Canon camera so we'll see what happens :) At least with my previous camera I was able to daisy-chain the external disk and my camera and capture an hour long tape without dropping any frames. I've also used an external USB disk for capture without trouble if you can believe that, but I wouldn't recommend it. If all else fails you can capture to the internal drive and then move it to the external drive later if you have trouble using both at the same time.

I didn't notice why you needed to stick with Final Cut 3. If you go with the 12" ibook you could spend the $300 you save on Final Cut Express HD. I'm not sure exactly what you're working on but the differences between Express and Pro are subtle while the price difference is substantial. I was able to get my FCE HD by buying an older copy (legit) off Ebay and then upgrading it for $99.00.

If you're just starting I can definately recommend this setup. The nice thing is that if you outgrow it the iBooks retain their value well and are durable enough that you can haul it around without worrying about cosmetic damage. If you need more horsepower down the road you can buy a big desktop system and you still have the iBook to take on the plane and write your next script on :)

hi boyd thanks for your feedback once again
and everyone else's too.
i will indeed get the applecare warranty, thanks for the tip.


PC card slot: not a necissity, just nice to have. You're going to need an external firewire drive to store and edit your projects - you really can't use the internal drive for that. You will also need to plug your camera into a firewire port to capture video to the external drive. Many people can do this without problems, but depending on your exact hardware, you *may* have difficulties using both devices at the same time.

how is it possible to use both, do they not both fit into the firewire plug?
i will import footage using a sony pd150. how then to plug both the external hard drive and the camera in at the same time?
would i need to buy the pc card as an extra, is this possible?


But honestly - I think it's a big mistake to use FCP 3. It's much less responsive than the newer versions and you will spend hours and hours more rendering everything just to see a preview. I'd really suggest you budget $400 and upgrade your copy of FCP 3 to FCP 5. You will need your original FCP 3 disks for the FCP 5 upgrade to work, and an academic copy of FCP 3 won't be upgradeable.

what is an academic copy??


But since this is your first experience on the Mac and you're new to editing, you would be handicapping yourself to start out with 4 year old software. Get the current version and you'll have a much better experience.

Good luck... let us know how everything works out![/QUOTE]

youre probably right. if i buy the ibook, then i could spend the difference on newer software. makes sense.
thanks so much again
best
jeanette

hi jason
thanks a lot for your mail.
it seems the more i ask the more i need to ask.. great stuff.
this is all seeming very expensive, so i think the ibook will make the most sense, especially considering id need to get an external drive and probably new software.
ive seen the 12" powerbook and it feels very small to me for editing. not sure if the 12" ibook is any bigger, probably not. but i think i can manage the 14" budget wise.

Boyd mentioned having trouble with the one firewire port on the iBook when using a camera and an external firewire disk at the same time and I've heard that as well.

how is this possible, if there is one firewire port? how do you connect the 3 bits of machinery?

I didn't notice why you needed to stick with Final Cut 3.

because ive got it already.

If you go with the 12" ibook you could spend the $300 you save on Final Cut Express HD. I'm not sure exactly what you're working on but the differences between Express and Pro are subtle while the price difference is substantial. I was able to get my FCE HD by buying an older copy (legit) off Ebay and then upgrading it for $99.00.

yes, just saw a new posting today from a chap whose working on fce, and i wanted to ask about this. are the differences that major between fcp and fce?
im not working on anything at the moment, waiting to make up my mind and get a machine so i can start**
if fce hd is ok for my purposes.. and at the moment i want to start sorting and cutting a 90 minute documentary, nothing fancy really. just working with loads of tapes. i dont need all the fancy tricks.
what do you mean, did you upgrade your fce hd to fcp hd for 99dollars?
(this really is not my terrain.) how do you do this?

yes, it seems to make more sense to go with an ibook.
but im a bit uneasy about it, because im getting such opposite opinions. for instance, a mac service guy in south africa mailed me this morning to say theres no way an ibook can handle fcp, that a powerbook is the way to go.
i think actually either would work.
but maybe better to start out with something simpler.
so im glad you find this set up works for you.
thanks again and i wish you many good hours of cutting and creativity
jeanette

If your budget allows, get the best power book G4 that you can comfortably afford for short and long term happiness. Just my opinion.

Jeanette, there are several ways to handle more than one firewire device through a single port. Almost all firewire drives have two ports. Plug one into the computer, then plug your camera into the disk drive.

The other solution is a firewire hub which lets you plug maybe 4 devices into one port. These can be more problematic from what I've read. As I said, many of the trouble reports about multiple firewire devices have been related to Canon camcorders.

FCE is a great value, and may be all you need. But there are a couple things you might also miss. Off the top of my head, the 3-way color corrector is one thing and a bigger issue might be the lack of batch capturing (this lets you mark the beginning and end of each clip you want, then turn the computer loose to locate and capture them automatically). With FCE you either need to capture the whole tape or to manually start, stop and fast forward between them. May not sound like a big deal, but it's a real timesaver. I'm sure there are other differences (I don't think FCE works with 24p, does it?). If you want to work with HDV then I've heard that FCE is much slower and doesn't do this natively like FCP 5 - you have to convert to edit it which reduces the quality somewhat and will also be very slow on a G4.

Since the FCP upgrade is $400 and FCE costs $300, I think it's a no-brainer. You would be getting MUCH more powerful software for the extra $100 with the FCP upgrade.

I bought my firewire PC card for $30 at Best Buy, so cost for that really isn't an issue. You might try using USB for a hard drive - I never have. On paper it would appear that USB2 is as fast or even faster than firewire, but the reality is very different. The "wisdom" I've read on Apple's site is not to use USB for video. Your mileage may vary....

Sorry, I meant to answer your question about Academic versions. These are sold to full time students and faculty members at a big discount and are completely functional versions of FCP and the other pro applications.

They cannot be upgraded to the newer version however; if you buy the upgrade version of FCP it will not accept an Academic serial number as valid. So if you bought an Academic version it gives you the full capabilites as the regular one, but it's a dead end when a new version comes out. If you're still a student you can buy a new Academic version for about the same price as an upgrade to the regular version. But if you've graduated from school and want to upgrade then you need to buy the full version of the software.

This is something which students in their final year should consider when purchasing FCP. If you plan to upgrade it may be more cost effective to buy the full version instead of the academic one.

hi boyd
thanks again..
is it possible to get an academic version of fcp 5??
the batch capturing function is a bit deal.. mmm. need to think about this.
otherwise, do you reckon that an ibook would handle fcp5 alright.. of course along with an external hard drive. would this be all i would need for a complete kit?
thanks all for your insight and support

Are you a full time student/faculty/staff member? If so then someone at your school should be able to tell you how to purchase. If not then you won't be eligible. I don't know very much about these programs since I'm no longer any of the above, and I don't know if they are even available outside the US. See the following for starters:

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/routingpage.html

I think the bare minimum would be the computer, a current version of FCP or FCE, a fast (7200RPM) firewire 400 drive and a 6-pin to 4-pin firewire cable to connect to your PD-150. There are plenty of other things which would be nice to have, but that would get you started and you could always add them later. You might also want a 3rd party book about FCP if you haven't used it.

There's a lot of information in this thread already, so why not take a few minutes to read through it again? Then you're gonna just have to give it your best shot. Good luck, and let us know what you get!

ive seen the 12" powerbook and it feels very small to me for editing. not sure if the 12" ibook is any bigger, probably not. but i think i can manage the 14" budget wise.

When you say it "feels small", are you talking about the amount of screen space (meaning the amount of things that fit on the screen), or are you talking about the physical size of the laptop itself (meaning working with the keyboard, trackpad, screen, etc)??? If you mean the first (amount of screen space) then you might as well get the 12" version instead of the 14" because, unlike PowerBooks, both iBook models share the EXACT SAME screen resolution....meaning the EXACT SAME amount of things will fit on the screen, regardless of the physical SIZE of the screen.

In other words, don't assume the 14" screen shows more stuff than the 12", because it absolutely DOES NOT.


yes, it seems to make more sense to go with an ibook.
but im a bit uneasy about it, because im getting such opposite opinions. for instance, a mac service guy in south africa mailed me this morning to say theres no way an ibook can handle fcp, that a powerbook is the way to go.

In case you haven't figured it out already, the "Mac service guy" you spoke to doesn't know he's talking about. Either that, or he isn't telling you the truth (perhaps in order to upsell you to a more profitable sale?).

The iBook will technically operate FCP just fine. It won't be anywhere near as expandable and/or flexiable to work with as a PowerBook, and working in the tiny 1024x768 resolution is going to be painful to say the least. But there's no reason an iBook can't "handle" FCP.

Good luck with your endeavors!

Good points Duane - absolutely true, the 12" and 14" powerbooks have the same number of dots on the screen; they're just bigger dots on the 14". The 12" is a better value.

Also have another look at my earlier post:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=345075&postcount=5

Aside from the CPU speed, just about everything on the iBook is "dumbed down" just a little from the powerbooks which results in a less performance. Agreed however, it all falls within Apple's specs for running FCP.

Good morning Jeanette, I'll try to be more concise this time :)

I just spent about 30 minutes writing a HUGE response to you and after reading it realized that what you need to know is what system is appropriate for you, based on what you've told us so far. Here's my suggestions, if you want a detailed explanation please feel free to contact me off-list.

If it is at all possible to go with a desktop system, buy an eMac. For $999 you'll have almost all the hardware you will need (I would recommend upgrading the RAM from 512MB to 2GB, but that's not a requirement, and add an external firewire hard disk, again not required unless you have allot of footage).

If you REQUIRE a portable system, then the 12" iBook is the way to go. It's the least expensive and the only functional difference between the 12" and the 14" is a slight difference in CPU speed. The 14" is physically larger, but I'm not sure what advantage that provides. The only significant quantifiable difference between the 12" iBook and the 12" PowerBooks is hard disk speed, which is more-or-less moot if you are editing on an external firewire disk.

As you can see you get more bang-for-the-buck with the desktop system, but if you need to be portable then you have to make that trade-off. I can tell you from personal experience that I went with the portable option and I should have went the other way.

As far as software goes, I have to agree with the other posters that for your project it might be worth the premium price to go with Final Cut Pro over Final Cut Express. The ability to batch-log tapes will probably save you allot of time. Other than that I think the differences, especially for your sort of work are negligible, but the logging facility would be a great time-saver (it's the only thing I miss). There are numerous ways to save money on Apple software, especially if you are a student, and if you want to know more about that feel free to drop me a line (it's a long, boring conversation :).

Hopefully this is useful to you. Having an technology background, I know how easy it is to get caught up into techno-lust when researching this type of gear, and also how nerve-wracking it can be gathering opinions on a major purchase. Remember that Apple does have a return policy :)

One other point I wanted to mention, if you are really trying to save money, be sure to check out the "recertified" merchandise on Apple's site. They give a decent discount on these items and they have a warranty as well.

Jason, you make some good points, but I have to quibble with a few of them. There are some other significant differences between the iBook and Powerbooks. They may not matter a lot depending on what you're doing, but they do exist. Compared to an iBook, the powerbooks have:

* faster disk drives (as you note)
* gigabit ethernet
* PC card slots
* builtin support for extended desktop on an external screen
* greater RAM capacity (2 gb vs 1.5gb)
* better graphics cards
* firewire 800

No argument that the 12" iBook is a lot of bang for the buck however. We have an eMac at work and it's really a great value. I wouldn't buy one today personally though unless every last penny is a big issue. It's big and very heavy. If you want a desktop spend a few hundred bucks more and get the G5 iMac which will run circles around both the iBook and eMac as well as a powerbook. But I think we've already established that Jeanette needs a laptop...

One important point needs to be made regarding the following statement however "Remember that Apple does have a return policy". Caveat Emptor. Be sure to READ and UNDERSTAND Apple's return policy before you assume anything. I've seen some pretty upset people both here and also in Apple's own forums. If you order anything customized on your Mac (let's say you add some RAM, or an airport card) then the computer is not returnable. Generally speaking, it's very foolish to buy any expensive thing casually on the assumption you can return it if you don't like it. A lot of things can bite you this way. As soon as you enter your credit card number you should assume that the computer is yours, and they have your money. Realize that a credit card is like holding a loaded gun in your hands. The Apple Store sales and return policy is here. Please read it very carefully before making a purchase:

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html

If you buy your mac from another vendor then you need to read their return policy very carefully.

Jason, you make some good points, but I have to quibble with a few of them. There are some other significant differences between the iBook and Powerbooks. They may not matter a lot depending on what you're doing, but they do exist. Compared to an iBook, the powerbooks have:

* faster disk drives (as you note)
* gigabit ethernet
* PC card slots
* builtin support for extended desktop on an external screen
* greater RAM capacity (2 gb vs 1.5gb)
* better graphics cards
* firewire 800


I know what you're getting at, however I was comparing the 12" models, which the 12" PowerBook does not have Gigabit, PC card slot, FW800, etc. It may have a faster disk and better graphics card, but I'm questioning if these items are worth the $500.00 premium, for an editing system. To be fair, the systems that contain the above features are $1000.00 more than the 12" iBook.

Thanks for pointing out the details of the return policy. I meant it more as a joke but I probably should have been more illustrative of that.

As far as the weight of the eMac, like the size of the 14" iBook, I'm not sure what bearing that has on editing capabilities. One could argue that the weight is an advantage as it is added theft-protection (yes I am kidding :).

On a serious note I would recommend AGAINST spending a few hundred more on the iMac because there have been tests that demonstrate it to perform WORSE than the eMac for video editing (largely due to it's shared IDE bus).

My point overall is that quantitative analysis should prevail over guesswork or media hype when every penny counts.

Any thouights on one of the iMacs with a superdrive. I am working out of a new G-4 power book and may not wait for the payday to buy a G-5. I like what I see in the iMac. What do you guys and gals think?

btw: so if FCP is incompatable with Tiger -- what now?

I wonder if it's the iMac, your mix of applications, or Tiger? I don't think I've ever experienced a crash that serious under OS X in the 2 years that I've used it (currently using Panther). Of course I can't disagree with the idea of having a backup disk, but not sure that partitioning the system drive is the way to go...

I kept the iMac clear of anything not being used for editing from the start to reduce the risks.

I think the cause is my work pattern. I work nights as an emergency vet, and edit when there's a gap between cases. This resulted in walking away from the machine at short notice, leaving lots of things open....then it "going to sleep" before I got back.

I guess there is some conflict between FCP and the "go to sleep" function, maybe FCP takes too long putting its toys away and gets cut off. I haven't had a problem since getting into the habbit of closing everything myself.

I guess there is some conflict between FCP and the "go to sleep" function, maybe FCP takes too long putting its toys away and gets cut off. I haven't had a problem since getting into the habbit of closing everything myself.
Apple recommends disabling any sort of "energy saving" modes when using Final Cut, including sleep and cpu-cycling modes. I can't remember if it's in the manual or an article in Apple's online knowledge base, but there is a document describing a bunch of things you should do to set your system up for editing, including this.

Any thouights on one of the iMacs with a superdrive. I am working out of a new G-4 power book and may not wait for the payday to buy a G-5. I like what I see in the iMac. What do you guys and gals think?

btw: so if FCP is incompatable with Tiger -- what now?

FCP is fine with Tiger afaik.

I use an iMac (but w/ external Lightscribe drive instead of the Superdrive) and it's perfect. DV, HDV, all just works as it should and is quite fast. I also ran a dual G5 2ghz for about a year - the only appreciable difference between the iMac and the dual was 2nd CPU. I can't really work on anything else when the iMac is rendering (1 CPU is completely taxed) - for me, that's actually a plus. Forces me to leave my desk and do something else.

FCP (4.5) didn't seem to have any major multithread advantage with two CPUs when i was using it. Might have improved with FCP 5, but don't expect a 2x improvement.

I've also done a lot of DV work on a Powerbook 17 (that was my main workstation before I my old job got me a dual g5 (mentioned above)). It was slower than a G5, but completely suited for the work I was doing (corporate and edu TV editing).

This thread is full of all kinds of great info....I'd like to throw in some more info. Sorry if allready discussed.

A big difference between the new ibooks is that the 14" ibook comes with a superdrive so you can burn your own dvds. The 12" doesn't.

A side by side comparison:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71208/wo/Yh2EvamxDvlO2Yd5g2TYPtspyrp/0.0.11.1.0.6.23.1.1.1.0.0.0.1.0

I have read what every one is saying about the 12" & 14" ibooks having the same size screen, but in the link above and seeing both side by side in person. I thought I could see a slight difference in the 14" being larger....

Also,

I bought an emac from the online apple store a few years ago and used the student discount. Apple never asked for me to send in a copy of my student id. I did have to click what school I am attending, so I'm not sure if they have a database of names....I'd bet they don't though. It seems we'd hear something about that if they did.

Apple most definitely asked to see my id when I went to their store amd bought my ipod.....

:)

hi all
thanks for the feedback.. i have to reread through it all again (starting from the last point of comprehension) and process it a bit for myself.
really appreciate your points, jason and boyd, thank you again, for your time and generosity.. but i suppose thats what this community is all about.
best and ill be back soon, probably with more questions...
jeanette

Good luck Jeanette. Don't worry, hardware choices are just the beginning :)