Hi Andy,

I own an HV40 and have access to the TM900. The image on the HV40 is excellent and I don't think the TM900 is 'better' in that respect but is also excellent.

I also own a Sony HC3 and that is definitely inferior in image quality to both by some distance (though still a great cam!).

I have the XH-A1 too and in good light the HV40 can look almost as good but in poor light, well it falls apart, comparatively.

So if you are looking for a significant improvement in image quality on the HV30 (pretty similar as far as I know to the HV40) you won't get it.

But if you are interested in progressive (50p) shooting and are drawn by the TM900s amazing image stabilisation and want to go tapeless then clearly the TM900 won't disappoint - it is a fantastic all round cam for the price. But as everyone has commented AVCHD is much more tricky codec to deal with than HDV due to its ultra-compressed nature.

Thanks Geoffrey. I am just going to stay with my HV30 for now. I have already somewhat solved the "low light" issue at least in my home by using 6,500k florescent bulbs. For example, I have two "chandelier -type lights in my den that have 7 light sockets each. I have used 150 watt equivalent bulbs so I have 14 times 150 watts in that room. Needless to say it looks like a few dozen football stadium lights are on when I "light up" the room. I have done something similar in most rooms in the house (to a lesser extent) and it was for the express purpose of increasing photo and video performance. Sounds crazy but it was a cheap solution and I really like the 6,500k temperature. I also have 4,200K lighting for a warmer (more normal) lighting scheme. As a result of this experience, I now only use 6,500k bulbs in my commercial buildings as well.

I recently purchased the Panasonic VW-4607 .7X wide angle lens and the Cavision LH77 lens hood to use with my TM900. Here are some initial reactions based upon some pictures that I took of a TV resolution chart:
1) The lens is relatively sharp edge to edge. There is some softness as you get near the edges, but does not appear to be significant if you stay at the wide angle end of the zoom range. I actually can't tell from my measurements if the softness is due to the lens or due the fact that the edges of the frame are at a slightly greater distance from the camera and consequently aren't as accurately focused as the center of the chart.
2) You can zoom through the entire range and retain focus.
3) There is no vignetting, even when starting a pan with full IS enabled.
4) There is considerable barrel distortion when shooting at maximum wide angle. You will definitely notice that straight edges (doorway openings, building edges, ... ) are curved if they are anywhere near the edge of the frame. This does go away fairly quickly as you zoom. Note that the stock TM900 has some barrel distortion when at maximum wide angle. However, it is relatively minor and is not nearly as noticeable as what you get with the wide angle lens at maximum wide angle.
5) At maximum wide angle, purple/magenta fringing is significant as you approach the edges of the frame. This goes away fairly quickly as you zoom. However, if you zoom a lot the crispness of the image, particularly around the edges, does suffer a bit. I haven't done enough investigation to figure out if this reduction in image quality is due to the reduction in available light or due to lens-related factors. BTW, the stock TM900 has considerable purple fringing at maximum wide angle. The wide angle lens at 1.4x zoom (making it equivalent to the stock 35mm lens at 1x zoom) has a lot less purple fringing than the stock lens.
6) The weight and position of the lens seriously unbalance the camera. Because the strap is centered along the side of the camera without the wide angle lens, the strap is positioned well behind center when the wide angle lens is added. This makes it difficult to keep the front end of the camera from jiggling when attempting to shoot with one hand. Even though the IS is fantastic on this camera, I can't hold the camera steady enough (one-handed) for decent video without rotating my hand forward and under the camera. This makes it difficult for me to get on the zoom and start/stop buttons. Using both hands to support the camera does allow me to shoot steady video.
7) Although the Cavision LH77 lens hood appears to be the only candidate for this lens, the inside diameter of the hood is 3mm larger than the outside diameter of the lens. The only way to use the lens hood with this lens is to build up the outside diameter of the lens with tape. Once this is done the thumb screw on the side of the hood allows it to be securely locked in position. The other problem with using the lens hood is that it makes it very difficult to get the lens cap off. The lens cap is a simple press on plastic lens cap. Because the cap is relatively tight when pressed on, the easiest way to get the cap off is to catch the back edge of the cap with your fingernail and pull it off. With the hood on, you can't get to the back edge of the cap. With a lot of finger strength and dry (not slippery) fingers you can get the cap off by squeezing around the perimeter and pulling. However, it is a lot of work and can't be done quickly and easily. It might be possible to file down the bumps on the inside edge of the lens cap to cause it to fit less snugly. This should make it easier to pull off the cap, but if overdone might cause the cap to fall off when you don't want it to. Another solution, (probably better), would be to glue some sort of strap on the front of the lens cap that you could use to pull the lens cap off.

My overall conclusion with respect to the lens is that it will work OK for my application. I will use the lens for outdoor sports videography where the extra wide angle will come in handy. Because I'll normally shoot with a tripod, the balance issue won't be a problem for me.

The lens hood isn't ideal out of the box but can be made to work with some tape and with some modifications to the lens cap.

Hi,

With all the upgrade from Canon HV* talk... you's have got me to ask a question thats been niggling me. :)

I have a HV20 and i'm wanting to upgrade to get rid of the old tape capturing and to go 50/60p (i'm 50p here unfort!! or is the TM900 region selectable? dont answer that.. i know its a no!).

The one burning question i have is how the HV20 can do ultra close ups! Its always amazing me that no matter how close i jam the camera to my target... it'll just focus keep capturing that stunning detail! So my big question is... how close can the TM900 get? Will i have this same functionality if i bought it...?

Hi Daymon.
Just conducted a very quick, non technical test with the TM900.
By engaging Macro Zoom and i.Zoom 20x I can get perfect focus with an area of about 2 square inches filling the screen, ie a small apple. In this mode the camera is about 4 feet from the subject.

Hi Daymon, as someone who uses the TM900 a fair bit for ultra close ups I thought you might be interested in my findings. Firstly I think the TM900 would work just the same as your HV20 for what you describe.

The minimum focus distance on wide for the TM900 is 4 cm assuming focus does not lock on to something else in the frame in which case I would just use manual focus. If the subject is small and you wanted it to fill the screen then as with your Canon HV20 you would need to step back and zoom in to your desired magnification. The minimum focus distance at full zoom for the TM900 is 1.2 mtrs, a little less if you engage tele macro but I believe this mode is cancelled once you zoom back a little from full optical zoom (X12).

All in all I think you would be happy, but if you wanted to do lots of close up work I suggest the addition of a close up lens. I have a set of these and for instance with my +1 diopter minimum focus distance on full zoom drops from 1.2 mtrs to 21 inches so the subject is greatly enlarged. With my +4 diopter at full zoom at 8 inches from subject a 1/2" diameter flower head more than fills the screen.

Here are the minimum/max focus distances I found for my TM900 with close up lenses,

+1 diopter = 21" to 42"
+2 diopter = 13" to 22"
+4 diopter = 8" to 10.5"

The +1 diopter is the one I find myself using mostly as it allows more depth of field. I used it recently when I found a spiders nest with about 1000 tiny brightly coloured spiders in it, made an interesting shot viewed on a 42" plasma with the remarkable detail this camera is capable of recording!

edit: oops, see Colin now replied... Hi Colin!

Hi Daymon.
Just conducted a very quick, non technical test with the TM900.
In normal mode, almost touching the front of the lens, ie an AA battery filling the width of the screen

Quick edit on my above post.
Hi Claire, Have you tried the Windgag material yet ?
Have a quick question, if you have the time, could you PM me the output settings you use for 1080p to Mpeg 2 in Edius. I have started to use Edius more since getting the TM900. I think I have it sorted.
Programme stream gives me a single file with sound that plays back fine on my WDTV, but as you use Edius a lot more than me, confirmation of settings would be nice.
Thanks.

Thank you very much Colin and Claire!

I honestly didn't think the camera would do good close up work given no one has mentioned it! I really like how i can do it with the ol' HV20 so its pleasing to hear it does have it to some degree. Looks like i have no excuse to hold back now. :)

Thanks again for the excellent responses! :)

I have had my TM900 for a few weeks now and I really like it. It is a great camera and a huge step forward from my HV30. I am still amazed by how good the PQ and IS are.

There are lots of things that I love about this little cam but there are a couple of things that I don't like as well. These rarely get mentioned so I thought I'd mention a few of the things that Panasonic might want to work on for their next camera. It may also be possible that as a newbie I am ignorant of features that overcome the shortcoming.
1. Although there is a true shutter priority mode, there isn't an aperature priority mode. The "iris" setting is really an absolute luminance control. There are occasions where having a large depth of field is important and where one would also like to take advantage of the camera's autoexposure system due to changing light conditions. It would be nice to be able to set the f stop at 3.4 and have the shutter speed varied automatically to compensate for changes in lighting conditions. This feature exists on my HV30 so it seems a step backward to not have it on the TM900
2. The manual "iris" control is limited to a set of pre-defined combinations of f stop and gain. The settings are f4.0, f3.4, f2.8, f2.4, f2.0, f1.7, open, open w/ 3db gain, open w/ 6db gain, ... all the way up to 18db gain. Notice that no gain is ever applied until the iris is completely open (f1.5). This means, for example, that you can't select f2.8 with 12db gain to increase depth of field at the cost of noise. You are stuck with the lower f-stop equivalent of f1.5 with 0 gain.
3. There are half-stops between each luminance setting above. The added granularity is nice but there is no visual indication to allow one to tell if they are on f2.8 or on the half stop next to it as the display just says f2.8 for both settings. This is probably only important when doing tests or in situations where you absolutely have to know the exact f-stop while shooting. However, with the flexibility of an LCD display to provide the information on the intermediate f-stops, it seems like they could have easily made these settings less ambiguous. I have yet to determine if these settings are distinguished in the recorded EXIF info.
4. The "iris" gain setting doesn't seem to get recorded in the EXIF information even though it does show up when setting the iris. The f-stop value, focal length, and shutter speed all show up but not the gain setting. (This might be a problem with the program that I'm using to read the information.)
5. Full access to all the menu functions is only possible when using the LCD. I need reading glasses when using the LCD but can see clearly without glasses through the viewfinder (assuming the diopter adjustment is set correctly). A few of the most important adjustments can be made while using the viewfinder (shutter, iris, focus, WB) which is nice but it would have better for me if full viewfinder access to the menu were available.
Feel free to add a few of your own or make suggestions for workarounds to the issues I have observed.

Hi

The manual "iris" control is limited to a set of pre-defined combinations of f stop and gain. The settings are f4.0, f3.4, f2.8, f2.4, f2.0, f1.7, open, open w/ 3db gain, open w/ 6db gain, ... all the way up to 18db gain. Notice that no gain is ever applied until the iris is completely open (f1.5). This means, for example, that you can't select f2.8 with 12db gain to increase depth of field at the cost of noise. You are stuck with the lower f-stop equivalent of f1.5 with 0 gain.

You should be able to go from f16 all the way to open.

The gain setting only available after the iris is fully open is never going to change if history is anything to go by as it's been like that on consumer aimed Panasonic camcorders for years and years, the same regarding no aperture priority. While it would take nothing to add these features (just software changes) I suspect they don't simply to distinguish their consumer and pro-consumer camcorders.

Regards

Phil

Time for a TM900 Magic Lantern Hack!

Thanks to Phil for the clarification on TM900 f-stops. I was confused on this because of what I had observed when taking pictures of a TV resolution chart for my lens tests. I had the camera in picture mode (rather than video mode). I would turn on the camera, switch off IA, then vary the shutter between 1/750 of a second and 1/15 of a second. I really wanted to see the effects of f-stop on lens resolution, but decided that the easiest way was to simply vary the shutter speed thereby forcing the camera to use progressively higher f-stops to keep the chart properly exposed. I knew that I could pull the f-stop and shutter speed info out from the EXIF info later when analyzing the pictures.

However, I quickly noticed that the camera would never pick an f-stop greater than 4.0, even when the picture started overexposing badly. The f-stop would slowly increase as I decreased the shutter speed, but the f-stop would never progress past 4.0. I incorrectly assumed that the camera did not have f-stops above this figure.

Since seeing Phil's post I went back and did some more experiments. As Phil pointed out the camera has f-stops all the way up to f16. In video mode the camera will use all the available f-stops when in shutter priority mode. However, in picture mode the f-stop will never go above f4 unless you force it there manually by using the iris adjustment. I suppose the Panasonic engineers decided that no one would ever knowingly want to do this in automatic exposure mode, so they enforced this limitation. It is kind of nice as you do notice the picture suddenly overexpose as you ratchet down the shutter speed. This warning makes you realize that you should probably pick a faster shutter to get a good picture. For some rare situation where you might actually want to take a picture of a bright scene at f8 1/15sec, you can get there by setting the shutter first, then using the iris control to manually adjust the iris to f8.

Alan, I use a TM700, but what you describe is familiar to me... these cameras appear to be designed to avoid using small apertures in auto mode even though " f16 " is available in manual mode. I think this f4 limit is probably to avoid the diffraction degradation (softening) that small apertures can cause, and this is worst on cameras with small sensors with their correspondingly shorter focal length lenses. (Excessively large depth of field can sometimes be problematic as well I believe.)

While the f number conventionally refers to the lens aperture alone, this is not the case for these cameras. The lens has an iris (well, a diamond shaped variable aperture to be more accurate) but it also has some automatic ND filters which are introduced gradually to control exposure without letting the aperture become too small. When the camera is telling you it is at f 2 it probably means it. When it tells you it is at f 8 it probably means it is at something like f 4 but with ND filters in the light path. (...I don't have precise details so cannot say at what stop these filters start to swing in, and it may change with zoom angle as well...) The f number displayed on the camera seems to be more a representation of how much light the lens is letting through rather than purely the size of the aperture. (Both Claire an I have observed this on our cameras, and a highly regarded camera expert on another forum has explained to us how and why Panasonic use this system.)

I am of the opinion that these cameras, in fully auto mode, resort to controlling exposure with shorter shutter speeds when the "f number" gets in the f 4 - f 5.6 range. If you force the shutter to 1/50 or 1/60 but leave the "iris" in auto the camera will still not stop down below that f 4 - f 5.6 range.... unless you go to full manual. I think this is what is causing the over exposure you describe.

On the TM700 this happens in video mode, maybe a bit different on the 900 series.....

dave

Hi

A lot of video cameras tend to work this way with ND filters. I think as well using an ND filter in the sweet spot must help avoid visible varying depths of field as the camera auto exposes using the iris, which might look like focus problems on playback or be distracting.

It seems the ND filter trick is quick common on consumer cams.

Regards

Phil

Hello TM900 users,

this is a great thread, as is this little camera whose ownership I took a few weeks ago :)
Due to my big hands I've accessorized it with a pistol grip. I also use Audio-Technica PRO 24-CM camcorder mic. The red rubber band on the lens ring is there to improve the ring control.

PRO 24-CM Stereo Condenser Microphone (http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/97a500a93cd279a8/index.html)

Pistol grip (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33381574@N07/5786869978/in/photostream/lightbox/)


Cheers, Adrian

Got to use the TM900 on real subjects for the first time last week in the Moab desert region of Utah. Here's the result with some 7D stills thrown in:

20110601 Utah and Moab Trip on Vimeo

Nice little cam.

Thanks Roger, watching that made a lovely start to the day. What spectacular scenery. I was thinking of going to Dartmoor to take some shots. You have inspired me to do so ( when this damn rain stops). "Flaming June" I dont think so.

Colin,

I hope you do go to Dartmoor and share the results. Hiking with a 1 pound camera that takes quality footage is a very nice thing compared to lugging a full sized camera!

Still raining, and getting worse over the weekend !!!!!!!!!!!! I agree, the benefit of having such a small camera, that takes amazing footage is so handy. I am getting far more shots of family events, grand children and such. The EX1 stays in its case now, only comes out for work

Hi all,

After a bit of playing around I've found another solution for using the Rode Videomic Pro on the TM900 which enables it to wear its freebie Rode Deadcat and not appear in shot when on full wide on the Panny. This is an alternative way of keeping the deadcat out of shot to mounting the VMP body in the spare Invision Video mount that I have.

It's a 10cm Rycote Hot Shoe Extension (Code 037303). See the Rycote website for full details.

I actually bought this Hot Shoe Extension thinking I'd fit it at 90 degrees to the direction the camera is pointing in (i.e. with it extending out in the opposite direction to the LCD) and then mount the Rode VMP on the end of it in order to get an increased distance from the lens.

However, I found that since the Rode's metal shoe is rectangular, not square, I'd need to remove a few mm off the front and back of it to be able to do this...as there is no point having a shotgun pointing at 90 degrees to the direction that the camera is !!!! I may well get the file out again and do it to give me much greater flexibility in how I mount it... but will ponder it for a while before I do anything too destructive to the VMP's shoe in case I think of a better way.

Certainly, with the Rycote rail in the longways direction it's easy to mount the Rode VMP further back and out of sight of the lens, yet you can still get your fingers around the TM900's body and use it hand held - just - as long as your fingers are not too fat that is! (mine squeeze through nice and snugly!) Snaps below.

By the way Colin, I'm same as you. TM900 comes out to play a lot but the EX3 gets used mainly just for work stuff now!

By the way, I used a linear polarizer on the TM900 and it worked great, no interference with metering that I could tell.

Hi all,
It's a 10cm Rycote Hot Shoe Extension (Code 037303). See the Rycote website for full details.


Andy, great minds think alike :) I've done the same exact thing with the hotshoe mount, the VideoMic Pro with freebee softie and the Rycote extension. It works well and the frame is clear. The mic adds quite a bit of volume (space not audio) to the whole TM900, of which it's charms are that it is so small and high quality, but it's all still very light weight with the mic and Rycote rig.

Did you ever mention your picture settings for getting the best high latitude images with the TM900? I've been using the intelligent contrast and then color correcting but since it has to be in auto exposure mode I'm noticing a bit of flickering during some shots shots while the TM900 is adjusting auto so I'm going to go to full manual when I can help it. I was liking the intelligent contrast though because I could really get a range of maybe 13 stops in a scene without blowing out or crushing, with the picture control down to -1 or -2.

I've done a bit of experimenting with manual exposure and the blacks do get a bit crushed but there isn't a lot of noise down there. I wish the color matrix was a bit more tunable though.

I have the TM700 as well and I think the TM900 has greater range and less noise. Thanks to you for starting this thread and for everybody else for sharing.

-Keith

The Rycote rail is rather expensive for what it is and there are now a lot of much cheaper choices on Ebay now that lots of people are looking for solutions to equiping their dSLRs for video.

In particular search on c shaped flash bracket as these will enable you to add a microphone and a video light at the same time should you wish.

Don't use the c bracket "as is", just use the "c" bit. And attach it direct to the hotshoe using the same type of double screw adapter shown in Andy's photos (which are also readily available. You could of course attach it to the camcorder's tripod screw but you would then loose the ability to attach the whole thing to a tripod plate or ballhead unless also using a further suitable male/female screw; that would however relieve weight stress on the cam's hotshoe.

Pete

Yes, Peter, you're quite right. In fact I wound up not using the Rycote hotshoe extension for much else, it was just lying around and that's why I'm using it on the TM900 . There are items very much like this that come with light sets, like the Sima LED lights, and these SIMA lights are sometimes like $10, you could get 4 lights with brackets for the cost of the way overpriced Rycote product. I have several Rycote items, they are well made and sometimes a good deal for the quality, in this case it's an accessory that's in many less expensive forms elsewhere.

When I lock the shutterspeed to 1/50th and let the iris float, I still see that in bright light (sunshine, or sun with reflectingclouds) white parts (windowpains, clouds) have zebrastripes; this means still overexposure in those particular parts …

I do have a feeling that I have to use the combination of iris and shutterspeed to get a correct exposure, because this way the range of exposure-possibilities is bigger. But in this setting I loose the shutterlock, because the shutter is now floating too.
In what circumstances will this become really a problem, not using a locked shutterspeed (1/50th) outdoors?

What I normally do is this:
From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough.

Hi Anthony,

I do much the same as you in how I set up and operate my TM900's Picture Adjust except I rarely seem to need to go down to -3 on exposure, most of the time it's on -2 when I'm out and about in bright sunny conditions (it really just depends on the scene and what the zebras are showing you - they seem to be pretty accurate). Sure, the TM900 does tend to blow out those things (white window frames etc.) more than I'd like, sometimes.

For the record, I also tend to have my Colour setting at -1, sometimes -2, and Sharpness at -1, but a lot of that is personal preference stuff.

I've found that setting the shutter speed at 1/100th (I'm also using a 1080p50 cam like you of course) is fine for lots of stuff - and may actually be preferable to 1/50th, depending on what I'll do with it in post (e.g. slow motion) and of course a faster shutter speed helps a little when trying to keep the F stop a bit more reasonable. The other thing that comes in handy with cutting the light a little more/helping with glass window pains is my circular polariser (we've established that a linear one will work just fine on this cam too, just a little bit earlier in this thread).

But, bottom line is that getting the exposure spot on with the TM900 can be difficult to get right in strong sunlight/high contrast outdoor lighting conditions, even with the zebras, histogram etc., because it does tend to clip whites a little too easily. No cam is perfect.

It was very interesting to read Keith's comments that his TM900 has a greater colour range and less noise than his TM700. So it looks like some of those marketing claims by Panasonic were true after all. I was initially skeptical when I started this thread - but you can't beat a direct comparison from someone who actually owns both.

Was shooting with my TM900 on the beach in Wells-Next-The-Sea in North Norfolk today (mostly family stuff of the kids). Got some stunning images until the rain arrived....(we need it very badly here in the east of England though!)

I've had this cam a few months now but I'm still amazed at the incredible images such a tiny, lightweight cam can deliver, especially when you've learn't how to get the best out of it.

When I lock the shutterspeed to 1/50th and let the iris float, I still see that in bright light (sunshine, or sun with reflectingclouds) white parts (windowpains, clouds) have zebrastripes; this means still overexposure in those particular parts …

Guys, this is going to happen with any camera, its the same with my EX1, and many more, far more professional cameras. You will never get perfect exposure across your scene. You can only expose on the majority of the scene, or in most cases, the subject matter.
With strong sunlight behind you, taking a wide shot that includes a fair proportion of sky, everything can be exposed to a reasonable level. There is no way on earth that you can expose for your subject and not have blown out whites somewhere in the scene If you expose correctely for the whites, the rest of the scene will be under exposed. Check out a football match or similar on your TV. The game/event is taking place on a very sunny afternoon, the wide shot will show half the pitch correctly exposed, the other half shaded by the stand and underexposed. Cameras simply dont see things the way we do.
Still loving the TM900

Andy and Colin

Thanks for your answers. I asked this because maybe I oversee a setting, but now I think I don't.

You are right, you cannot have all the right exposures in one scene. I have to try a few combinations of settings to get the best out off this camera. A wonderfull camera ...

I too have found that whites are blown out by the TM900 in auto mode, even with picture exposure adjust way down to -2 or even -3 in very high contrast scenes. The way I've gotten around that is to use the intelligent contrast and even use a -1 or -2 settings there, and also reduce the color saturation and sharpness (turning down sharpness improves the image quite a bit for me to match other more expensive camcorders) but I think this works only in full auto mode. There are also problems with Intelligent Contrast Mode, as I've found a bit from grading some scenes where I had used it. Jury is still out with this though, I'll keep everybody posted. I have a feeling that with careful RGB curve application it might be usable. Also, I think the auto exposure is not necessarily that smooth, so you have that to contend with flickering for shots where the brightness may vary over time. The flickering I'm seeing might have been shutter speed changes though, not sure.

As Colin suggests, this is how cameras have worked forever. In high contrast scenes something has to give, Usually you expose for the subject, what is most important. You might be able to bring other details out in post with color grading, the TM900 seems to preserve a fair amount of detail in the shadows, so keeping exposure low might work out. The highlights clip like other small chip camcorders, not too gracefully so when you clip it's really apparent and not that 'filmic.' High end camcorders like the Red Epic are now shooting a type of 'HDR' where there is one normal exposure made per frame, then another at the same time at a much lower exposure level. If the highlights are blown out, you can bring back highlight details in post with special RED software. Someday consumer camcorders in the TM900 price range will be able to do this, I'm positive. For now though there are compromises.

Anthony, have you tried setting the exposure adjust way down, like to -5 and see if the auto mode keeps the highlights from being clipped? I think this would work. The downside is that you'd possible have a lot of 'crushed' blacks, where there is just no detail to raise. However if you're going for a high contrast look this might work. Has anybody done any color / luminosity tests with this camcorder in the various modes of picture adjust, intelligent contrast? If I get time I'm planning too, but if there's one out there that shows the latitude range already, please post a link here.

Thanks for the great conversations about this amazing little camcorder.

Keith

I saw the clipping clearly in my histogram, one nice small band to right of the diagram.
I will try to lower the exposure setting more than I did, and see what happens with the clipping and the rest of the picture.

"What I normally do is this:
From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough."

I find in bright light it is necessary to go full manual. EV compensation is NOT enough when the shutter is fixed at a relatively slow speed.

I do what you do except you omit the last step: set iris. You must do this after shutter. If you try to set shutter after iris, it will default iris to auto.

So, you can set shutter (to 1/50th or 1/60th) and iris (in that order) to eliminate zebra stripes.

This video was done in full manual mode because of the bright light (midday sun). No blown spots because I eliminated zebras using the technique above (shot at 1/60th fixed).

A Short Trip to NYC using the Panasonic TM900 on Vimeo

I have mine set with exposure -2 in manual and if I'm in a hurry and indoors, I flip it to iA; if I'm outdoors and its bright I flip it to manual (-2) and adjust as needed. I'd rather slightly underexpose than overexpose.

Mark

Thank you for your information, I will use your settings.

But if you use your camera as a "moving eye" how do you cope with the changing light situations in the landscape/scene, if you fix your iris too (and not let it float)?

I have mine set with exposure -2 in manual and if I'm in a hurry and indoors, I flip it to iA; if I'm outdoors and its bright I flip it to manual (-2) and adjust as needed. I'd rather slightly underexpose than overexpose.
Roger. The exposure compensation is only active when the iris is left floating in manual mode, as Mark describes above. Or at least that is how I see it. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Colin and Roger

In the iA mode, you can not even select, in the menu, the Exposure compensation setting.
So iA is a completely automatic mode (idiots mode ...).

You can set the Exposure compensation in the manual mode, but it has no influence on the iA mode as far as I can see.

Mark

With Exposure compensation -3 and "sharp" light (clouded sky) in a garden, I can use the whole range of iris settings from Open till F16. This range is enough for all the light circumstances outdoors, as far as I can see. I rely fully on the histogram (clipping) and the zebra stripes. I start to measure the brightest part in the planned pan and set shutterspeed to 1/50 and set the iris so that the histogram shows no clipping and zebra stripes do not appear.
Than, with this full manual settings, I make a slow planned pan in the choosen scenes.

Anthony,

I use manual mode 90% of the time. When I switch to iA mode I am intentionally switching to "idiot mode" to catch something spontaneous or way out of wack with the manual settings. Better to get a good exposure with shutter speed faster than ideal than miss the moment while you fight the menu's.

iA is the "video hyperspace" button you try not to use, but it sometimes can save your tail in a tight spot.

Roger

An alternative for the "idiot mode" is to set the shutterspeed and iris on auto. Compared to the iA mode you have the advantage of a manual Focus, White balance and Exposure compensation.
The disadvantage is that the shutterspeed may get high, but in which situation is that a real disadvantage (by the way that was my original question)?

Anthony, fast shutter speeds can look great with fairly static shots - really sharp - but when you get movement in the frame it takes on an unnatural stuttery look (I've made this mistake trying to compensate for very bright conditions) like the opening of Saving Private Ryan. This can be good for sport for instance as the camera can capture the detail of rapid movement but in most other situations it looks bad and can be quite difficult to watch - even the swing of an arm looks weird. 50th or perhaps 100th is about as high as I'd go with moving scenes but for static scenes the skies the limit really.

Andy and Geoffrey suggested a 1/100th sec shutter to help with exposure in bright light... good advice in my opinion, since shooting at 50 fps (or 60) this gives us a 180 degree shutter angle. One is supposed to NEVER film with a greater than 180 degree shutter. 1/50th second shutter speed at 50 fps frame rate gives a shutter angle of 360 degrees, open all the time! This can cause smearing on fast moving objects, you would hardly ever want to use 1/25th shutter at 25fps would you? That would also be 360 degrees, only when pushed by lack of light might it be considered.

Conversely you can have a faster shutter than 1/100th but except for static scenes without much movement then as Geoffrey said, with an unnatural stuttery look.

You can of course break the 180 degree shutter rule but it helps to understand it before you do and I found these two articles with videos demonstrating the effect very good at demonstrating the various results.

180 Degree Shutter - Learn It, Live It, Love It (http://blog.tylerginter.com/?p=385)

The 180s of Filmmaking: Part 2 – The Most Commonly Broken Rule The Art & Business of Filmmaking & Photography (http://bladeronner.com/2010/11/07/the-180s-of-filmmaking-part-2-the-most-commonly-broken-rule/)

I'm afraid I can't really agree with you about this Claire..... ( that's the the "NEVER film with a greater than 180 degree shutter" bit I mean)

What you say is true for 25P and 24P shooting, but at the higher "images per second" rates of 50i or 50P I don't think blur is the same problem than it would be with a 1/25th shutter in 25P.

A conventional 50 field per second interlaced video camera would always (historically) have used an exposure of 1/50th sec per field, which is essentially a 360 degree shutter. It was certainly the norm for the old standard definition TV tube cameras. ( 59.94 fields per sec. and approx. 1/60th sec per field shutter in U.S.A. of course)

I always try to shoot in 50P with a 1/50th shutter which will give traditional video motion analysis for 50P and when converted to 50i or, by losing every other frame, traditional film style motion analysis for 25P.

Having said that, I would agree that a 1/100th shutter is not too damaging to the motion, and will give actually the best matching "film" style motion for half speeding to 25P..... but other than that, I think 1/50th is best.

dave

Geoffrey and Claire

Thank you for this explanation, I was looking for such usefull information.
So a maximum of 1/100 s for the shutterspeed is recommended, when you film with 50 frames/second.
That means that you have to go fully manual with this camera and don't let the iris float.

It also means that you have to be carefull with a (long) panning shot, because the settings of your fixed shutterspeed and your fixed iris allow only a limited range of lightconditions.

I love the footage I can capture with my TM900, but, after a couple of months with it, one thing is annoying me. Getting a decent representation of what I am shooting on the LCD. I am spoilt I guess by using a Sony EX1 every day, amazing LCD, which displays, exposure, colour and focus extremely accurately. I appreciate that the LCD on the TM900 is not particularly high res, but I do like to set LCDs up fairly tightly. I have tried many settings, and checked via HDMI on my two HD TVs. Still cant get it as close as I would like. The VF on the TM900 is way oversaturated, with an almost pastel shade to it. There is of course only brightness adjustment on the VF. Its fine for framing shots, but not a lot else. Also I find the two indoor mode white balance presets virtually useless, both produce a bit of a murky, turquise cast. I have tried to tweak all settings, still cant get it just so. Manual white balance is fine in daylight, but under decent artificial light it tends to produce oversaturated blues/ deep colours and undersaturated yellows and other light colours. Has anyone found a group of settings that they they are happy with ?
Feedback appreciated.

Hi

Geoffrey and Claire

Thank you for this explanation, I was looking for such usefull information.
So a maximum of 1/100 s for the shutterspeed is recommended, when you film with 50 frames/second.
That means that you have to go fully manual with this camera and don't let the iris float.

It also means that you have to be carefull with a (long) panning shot, because the settings of your fixed shutterspeed and your fixed iris allow only a limited range of lightconditions.

I'm not sure the 180 degree rule fully follows through to 1080/50p on modern HD video cameras. The idea of the rule is really for film where mechanics are involved (hence the degrees bit as that was to do with the shape of mechanical shutter wheels) and with modern cameras we talk about shutter speeds.

With modern film cameras using shutters rather than rotating discs the 180 degree rule was a nice nostalgic way of saying keep the shutter speed at twice the frame rate, a good rule with 24fps as using a fast shutter speed with such low frame rates causes us to stop perceiving motion and we start perceiving a series of static images shown one after the other, that is where the judder comes from. Using a slow shutter speed allows anything moving to blur in each frame which is essential with slow frame rates in order for us to be fooled into perceiving motion. The 180 degree rule is simply to help work around a limitation of film.

With 50 (or 60) progressive frames per second, it doesn't matter if each frame is frozen in time, as there are enough frames to flick past our eyes to allow us to still see motion. Factor in 100Hz TVs which interpolate extra frames, then they will do a much better job at that if each frame isn't blurred.

The only time you might need to worry about shutter speeds on modern 1080/50p cameras is where you know you are going to deliver at slow frame rates later, perhaps to the net at 30p, or you will convert down to 25p for the 'film effect', which ironically the film industry is trying to leave behind. Even then you could do that in post.

Fixing the shutter speed in bright conditions will mean the camera has to close the iris further than it otherwise might which means it is operating out of the sweet spot of the optics.

Personally I've seen no issues at all with high shutter rates on 50p, movement is still fluid and perfectly natural. Why shoot in HD at 50 or 60 progressive frames a second than allow each frame to blur using the 180 degree rule that was for mechanical film cameras running at 24fps? The big benefit of 50p is the ability to capture movement without that movement becoming blur and dropping in resolution due to interlacing, so it seems pointless to me imposing an outdated 180 degree rule just to re-introduce a drop in resolution when anything moves!

I think we need to embrace HD video and work to it's strengths, not shackle it with old rules that personally I can't see how they apply now.

Regards

Phil

As far as I understand, the shutter speed in a digital videocamera is managed electronically, there is no mechanical shutter.
A compilation:
The difference is that, rather than using a mechanical device, the shutter speed is adjusted by electronically varying the amount of time the CCD/CMOS is allowed to build a charge. The shutter speed does not affect the frame rate, which is completely separate and always stays according to your framerate-setting.
The main effect of higher shutter speeds is that individual frames appear sharper, due to the minimisation of motion blur. Motion blur occurs when the subject moves within the frame while the "shutter" is open. The less time the shutter is open (i.e. the faster the shutter speed), the less movement will take place.
The side-effect of higher shutter speeds is that movement appears more jerky. This is because motion blur tends to smooth consecutive frames together.

An example, the framerate is 50p, film time is 1 second, only a part of the frames are shown:

---------- stands for the time one frame exists, in this case 1/50 second.
x stands for the exposure time due to the shutter (opening) speed.
The gap between the frames is the time needed for the unloading of the image-sensor.

Shutter is closed:
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- etcetera untill 50 frames.

If we use a shutterspeed of 1/500 second, then each frame will get light during 1/10 of it's existence.
x--------- x--------- x--------- x--------- x--------- x--------- x--------- x--------- etcetera untill 50 frames.

If we use a shutterspeed of 1/100 second, then each frame will get light during 1/2 of it's existence.
xxxxx----- xxxxx----- xxxxx----- xxxxx----- xxxxx----- xxxxx----- xxxxx----- etcetera untill 50 frames.

If we use a shutterspeed of 1/50 second, then each frame will get light during 1/1 of it's existence.
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx etcetera untill 50 frames.

That means, in principal, that de slowest shutterspeed, for a framerate setting of 50p, is 1/50 second, because you can not expose a frame longer than the existence of the frame itself.
In some camera's it is possible for the "shutter" to be open for multiple frames, the shutter speed can be set as low as 1/5 second; accumulating light across 10 frames (at a frame rate of 50 frames per second).

I don't have any great TM900 footage of fast shutter speeds on fast moving objects, but I did dig up a brief clip shot with an XHA1 of running water using I believe 1/250 or 1/500 shutter speed. Other than compression artifacts due to HDV compression, what I see is droplets suspended in time as one would expect from a fast shutter speed.

http://vimeo.com/25326954

For this piece, this is the exact effect I wanted, so I used fast shutter for artistic reasons. I wish would have had 60fps HD, but you use what you have (or had in 2008).

Decided to attempt similar footage with the TM-900, the best my kitchen sink and two high powered LED flashlights could afford! Here's water at 1/30; 1/60; 1/100; 1/250; and 1/500 on the TM-900. I kept the iris constant on all shots and varied gain to try and achieve correct exposure, with varying success.:

http://vimeo.com/25328992

So, as I look at these two very different digital camera examples, the faster shutter increasingly freezes the action in each frame and breaks down the blurred stream of water in the slower frames into individual droplets in the faster shutter speeds. I don't see anything unexpected or the image otherwise marred by the faster shutter. A "strobing" effect may be desirable in some situations if you're going for a certain look.

@Roger

Thank you for your "practical" clips.
Your demonstration corresponds with the theory ...

I love it when theory and reality mesh!

Here's a great piece on how cinema is adapting to the capabilities of the digital medium and the lack of mechanical shutters (someone else posted this on DVinfo a while back):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkWLZy7gbLg