"...what advantages would you expect to see following this method?"

Rather than (further) hijack this thread, I've posted my reply here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-happens-vegas/503355-hd-guide-vimeo-youtube-web.html#post1702011

...Jerry

I've found the AF so good on this camera, that my attempts at "improving it" with manual focus have been unimpressive. I will use manual for static shots, especially on the occasions when the subject is off center and the AF want's to focus on the background. I haven't found the manual ring very easy to achieve a "feel" for focusing like higher end cameras I've used, and the excellent fringing assist is difficult to follow when things get moving.

Have others been able to master manual focus on this cam for difficult scenes?

Thanks Jerry,

I have found more examples of what can be done with Mercalli V2. It looks very promising.

Roger,

For me motorising the control ring was a huge step forward particularly when used with the blue focus assist.
The remote control eliminates the risk of bumping the camera and I do not have to remember which way to turn the ring.
It also makes it possible to focus remotely. I have a boom that I sometimes use to when recording birds at their nests. Under these conditions I can decide the focus point rather than leaving the camera to decide.
I often use close-up lenses and the control ring is almost essential as the depth of field is only a few millimetres. Again the the focus assist is incredibly helpful.
The next step will be to add a speed control and play with follow focus but only at close range.

Does this camera have a built-in ND which engages when bright conditions require it? Is anyone having a problem with keeping a full sunlight day under control? I used to own a SD100 which was very similar to this cam and it had the built-in ND.

Brian,

No ND. You either have to use a screw on ND or stop the iris/shutter down.

Roger,

Sorry, the TM900 does have a built-in auto ND filter (maybe more than one). This is Tom Hardwick's explanation:

"So what happens when you shoot movies? Well the camera shoots at maximum aperture and if it gets brighter more and more ND is applied. Its the same in manual or auto - you think you're shooting at f/4.5 (say) but you're not - you're shooting at whatever the maximum aperture is for the focal length you've set. That's f/1.5 at wide stopping smoothly (ramping) down to f/2.8 at full tele.

So the lens 'stops down' (using ND) to f/5.6 and only if it gets brighter still do the aperture blades start to close. You can see that scenes shot at an indicated f/8 are actually shot at f/4, bringing with it the dof that comes with f/4."

This is common in small-sensor cameras to avoid diffraction at very small apertures.

Mark,

You lost me there. ND is an optical device to restrict the amount of light allowed into the lens without shifting colors. What you are describing is a combination of gain, aperture, and perhaps shutter speed, which doesnt seem to qualify as ND. Usually ND filters are used to allow a wider aperture and/or slower shutter speed that otherwise possible with fast optics. Here's a good Wiki discussion on the topic: Neutral density filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_density_filter)

So, are you saying you understand the TM900 to employ an optical ND to the camera, or just some unexpected manipulation of shutter speed, gain, and aperture? If the latter, that doesn't seem to qualify as ND.

Thanks, I know what an ND filter is. Yes, an optical ND filter is used. Did you understand Tom's explanation about dof (need a Wikipedia reference to that? :)) and how the ND filter works in combination with aperture blades and shutter speed? It is why dof does not change when the effective aperture changes due to simply light dimming by the *optical* ND filter.

Are you now willing to concede that your answer about the ND filter in the TM900 was not correct? There was a discussion of this already. I only care about this so that others are not misled by your incorrect response, and I appreciate your trying to get it right.

Thanks for the responses. Mark you seemed to confirm what I was guessing. That an internal ND engages automatically to try and keep the f-stop at a somewhat open position. This confirms my memory of the SD100 which I used to own. On a day which contained full sun, the iris would read f8 or f11 for example. Whereas my DSLR would be reading f22 for the same scene.

Mark,

Looks like you are correct and I am wrong. The TM900 seems to employ an automatic ND of some kind. Thanks for the gracious manner in which you exposed my error.


Hopefully in this exchange we don't loose the fact that there are situations where using screw-on ND filters with the TM900 to achieve a specific look beyond what the build in ND filters deliver. Agreed?

Agree completely. In fact in all the video I shoot in bright conditions I use a screw-on optical ND filter with the TM900.

For this TM900 video, I used a screw-on ND filter for all scenes but the final dusk scenes.

Ducks, geese, joggers, quidditch playoff (Harry Potter game), birds, graffiti. Cold, windy and sunny.

Shot 108060p. Edited in Vegas Pro, to 108030p.

Panasonic TM900 HD Video: Fall Around the The Charles River on Vimeo

And here is a frame grab from the video:

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/markr041/004661.jpg

if you shot in 60p edited in 30p, why isn't it slow motion?

The 60p video was converted, not slowed down, to 30p, which is exactly what Vimeo always does.

The 900 controls its (movie) exposure by varying the amount of ND that it slides into the optical path alongside the iris blades. As I say, it will shoot at maximum aperture for as long as possible and only start to close the aperture blades when all the ND is in place.

Of course shooting at max aperture is always asking for trouble, even though this camera uses Panasonic's tightly-toleranced zoom lens production lines. All lenses vignette at maximum aperture, they flare more and miss-centering of elements causes unavoidable softness. The vignetting can be digitally compensated for, though on a camera costing so little I doubt whether it is being done (I've done no tests on this yet).

Adding external ND is always an option (though you'll need a new hood and you'll have to keep the ND spotless when shooting at these tiny focal lengths). But remember that adding ND will keep the camera shooting at maximum aperture for longer - i.e. it will take even brighter conditions to effect the first actual iris blade stop-down. Think on this Mark.

This is no bad thing in a camera that uses smaller than ¼'' chips, as you shouldn't really shoot at apertures smaller than f/4 anyway.

That Vimeo-shown Mercalli salvation is impressive, though the CMOS jello becomes more obvious. Bet they're working on that.

tom.

Mark,

Are you using a fixed ND (what value) or variable (what brand)?

I am using a .6 ND (Tiffen). In the bright conditions I use the filter, at 1/60th shutter the nominal f never goes below f4. The camera is never shooting wide open.

You say you never shoot at apertures smaller than f/4 Mark? That's an on-screen indicated f/4, right? Remember that for most of the zoom's range f/4 is a combination of wide open iris+internal ND. Or in your case wide open + internal and external ND.

At full tele the camera's still shooting wide open when the read-out says f/5.6. Easy enough to see this as you peer down the lens.

tom.

Tom, I am sure we all appreciate the information you are providing. However, let's not get carried away with this: "All lenses vignette at maximum aperture, they flare more and miss-centering of elements causes unavoidable softness."

I would bet that Pansonic has chosen the ND-blades algorithm to miminmize the problems you raise. In any case, I have not noticed any of these issues on my calibrated big-screenHDTV in the videos I shoot. The key reason I use the ND filter is I find that the TM900 overexposes less badly in auto aperture mode with the filter on in bright sun. All of the videos I have posted have employed the ND filter, and no one among the thousands viewing them has complained about softness!

Getting exposure right is of first-order importance in video; substantially more important than the fear of vignetting, unclean filter, mis-centering, etc. with a camera of the quality of the TM900.

It is very useful to know, however, that the internal ND filter means that one need not worry about shooting at tiny apertures in bright sun and thus diffraction.

Quite so Mark - I didn't mean to infer that the 900's picture quality was sub-standard in any way - in fact I find it amazingly good and can be made to look even better with the hyped electronic sharpening turned way down. I also turn down the exposure because of burnt out highlights.

I just wish Panasonic hadn't moved away from their previous incarnation of internal ND, where the lens physically stopped down to f/4.5 and only at that point was the internal ND gradually brought into play. Using this ROM programming means the camera is often used a couple of stops down - no bad thing for cameras that use such cheap lenses.

I find it odd that adding external ND controls your 900's over-exposure because an ND only absorbs light, the exposure of the chips will be the same with or without ND (in iA, say).

tom.

I have found the degree of overexposure is non-linearly related to the amount of light coming through the lens.

Actually, before your posts I thought the algorithm was the old one they typically employed. Maybe the lens is different and so the new rules are more appropriate.

Great replies . Thanks for the input. I plan on picking one of these cameras up soon. I've seen some footage on YouTube and the 60p is fantastic for a consumer cam. One other question. Is the 24p mode native or is the 24p in a 60i container with pulldown applied?

Mark,

How are you maintaining the MTS file type when you upload to Vimeo? When you edit together your clips, what program are you using to keep the bitrate and file the same as original?

Hi, this is my first post!

I have a SD 900 and have been following this thread for a while now picking up some very useful tips. I have a question on when and when not to use the IS on the camera. Should I use it when panning either slow or fast pans? I know not to use it with a stabiliser, just not sure on panning.

Thanks
Mark

The problem is that the OIS is so effective at removing the vibrations of hand-holding that it comes with its own side-effects. Easiest way to see this is to put your 900 on a good tripod with OIS turned on. Zoom to a middling focal length and pan from something center frame to something else 45 degrees away or so, and stop panning when that 2nd object is centre frame.

See what happens? The image overshoots and then gently slides back to centre frame, and this happens after your camera has come to a complete stop. Not good. Even worse with the hybrid stabilisation turned on, and independent of panning speed.

So in answer to your question, have the OIS turned off for pans and tilts. Not a very practical solution if you're out and about without a tripod, but as I say - a side-effect of powerful OIS. My Sony NX5 doesn't do this with its OIS turned on BTW.

tom.

TM900s are going for only $599, because of a rebate. But you gotta buy before Dec. 24, 2011. Pretty good price!

Now at 62,000 views so I guess this is currently one of the more popular threads on DVinfo! I've not been that active on here due to a very busy corporate video work load the last few months but I reckon it's time for another very brief summary of what we've all covered - before the Xmas holidays and to help those researching "what camera to buy" (in the New Year sales).

Don't forget you can use the "Seach this Thread" function too as I've only skimmed the latest pages to pick out a few highlights. Many thanks to everyone for making this such a useful and informative thread about the TM900 (and SD900, HS900 etc.).

Page 1 - TM900 specs, first impressions, link to Panasonic information, new battery type needed, suggested camera settings, No "Bondi Blue", remote control.

Page 2 - Filters and chances of vignetting, editing 1080p50/60.

Page 3 - 1080p50 as slow motion in post, hybrid optical image stabilisation and iZoom test video.

Page 4 - No Bondi Blue (again...), tendency to overexpose in bright sunlight, low light test video.

Page 5 - TM900 and Steadicam Merlin test video, larger battery pics/comments, battery charger.

Page 6 - More TM900 and Steadicam Merlin tests, Rode Videomic Pro/Nikon ME-1 discussion, my accessory shoe modification.

Page 7 - Polarising filters, ND filters, more test films.

Page 8 - Wide angle adapters, TM900 and Canon 7D comparison test video.

Page 9 - More on wide angle adapters, manual settings.

Page 10 - More on manual settings, menus, shutter speed selection, relay recording clarified.

Page 11 - Rode Vidoemic Pro and deadcat information (link to audio section), editing 1080p50 (again), iZoom and polarising filters clarification.

Page 12 - Fan noise (or lack of in some cases), wide angle adapters (again), recording specs - still unanswered - anyone?

Page 13 - Some discussion on Intelligent Contrast Mode.

Page 14 - Discussion on AVCHD, editing, wide angles for the TM900 etc. series and ultra close up (i.e. macro ideas and lens tips). Discussion on F stops.

Page 15 - F-stops discussion continued. Pics of the Rode VMP (with Deadcat on) on a Rycote bar with my TM900.

Page 16 - Shutter speed discussion. Tendency to blow out highlights and exposure compensation settings discussed again.

Page 17 - More thoughts and demos on shutter speed. Good new user summary.

Page 18 - SD card choice/suggestions.

Page 19 - Filters and backlight compensation discussion.

Page 20 - Backlight compensation discussion (cont.) and batteries/battery life.

Page 21 - Asthetics of the TM900 image along with neutral density/other filters discussion/image issues with small sensor cams.

Page 22 - Canon 60D versus TM900 image/asthetics comments. Discussion on slow shutter speeds.

Page 23 - TM900 for an African safari? - comments and advice. Serious audio accessories (with excellent pics).

Page 24 - More African safari TM900 accessory kit advice plus Nikon ME1 microphone comments.

Page 25 - TM900 and NLE workflow discussion/suggestions.

Page 26 - Ultra close-ups, Iris discussion, mic AGC and more about HD Writer.

Page 27 - File management during media editing and archiving discussion. Battery charger link and power options for long field trips.

Page 28 - HD Writer discussion continued. Suggestions about best Sharpness settings in cam and remotely controlling the TM900 on a boom pole etc.

Page 29 - Not possible to dual media record, more interesting discussions on remote controlling the TM900.

Page 30 - Some suggestions about tripods [for the record I use a Libec TH650DV], more discussion about remote control plus some excellent pics/accessories! Use of iA or Manual discussed again. Effectiveness of Image Stabilisation (I.S.) also discussed.

Page 31 - Auto Focus (AF) accuracy, built in ND discussion and screw on ND example film.

Page 32 - More on ND filters/F-stop discussion. IS discussion (in-camera and in post). TM900's at an amazing price - see post above! I expect a new model will be announced/appear soon.

[NOTE: I seem to remember it was very early in 2011 that the TM900 got announced - I got mine in mid-Feb 2011 just a few weeks afterwards, and along with buying Adobe CS 5.5 Production Premium for my Mac Pro - to superceed Final Cut - the TM900 has truly been one of the best purchases I made in this last year!]

Happy Holidays!

The OIS on the TM900 is amazing, especially when used at full telephoto (420mm) and using iZoom to get 700mm. These are frame grabs from handheld 108060p video at 420mm and 700mm, respectively. Shutter speed was 1/60th, so any camera movement would have significantly reduced sharpness (blur).

The included editing software enables one to trim and merge 108060p clips without re-encoding and without glitches. There is even an array of pre-set transitions for use.

This video was made using the software (my first use of the software), so the downloadable file is pristine, sharp TM900 all the way.

Panasonic TM900 HD Video: Hong Kong Lake on Vimeo


Birds, turtles, a fish frenzy, graduates, a model, soccer, lily pads, flowers.

Intelligent telephoto mode used (700mm) for some shots.

108060p, manual mode except WB, ND filter.

Razor sharp indeed Mark. Thanks for sharing.

I just picked up a TM900 from B&H because I couldn't resist the $599 price. What a great camera, and thank you all for your painfully extensive discussion about this.

I've been mainly testing it out in low light, and it's killing my HMC40 in that department.

I'm looking to post some clips soon, as the snow is finally falling here and I'd like to see how the camera handles it.

Enjoy your new cam. At that price it was a steal!

I just picked up a TM900 from B&H because I couldn't resist the $599 price. What a great camera, and thank you all for your painfully extensive discussion about this.

I've been mainly testing it out in low light, and it's killing my HMC40 in that department.

I'm looking to post some clips soon, as the snow is finally falling here and I'd like to see how the camera handles it.

That's interesting that you say it's better than the HMC-40 in low light considering they both have 1/4" chips.

It's gotta be the way the circuitry in each camera processes the signal and adds gain. The noise on the 900 is much less pronounced than the 40 up to 18dB.

On another note, I'm looking to buy some batteries for the 900. I'm tired of paying Panasonic's bloated battery prices, and have found some Chinese knockoffs on ebay that I'm considering.

Does anyone have any experience with these?

These pirate batteries were a long time coming to market, and for such a popular camera I'm wondering why. And why did Panasonic change from the TM700's battery? What's going on here?

These pirate batteries were a long time coming to market, and for such a popular camera I'm wondering why. And why did Panasonic change from the TM700's battery? What's going on here?

A lot of people are fired up about Panasonic changing batteries between the 700 and 900. To me, it just looks like they're trying to get more money out of us.

And I believe that this is the very reason that the knockoffs were later coming to market -- the battery construction is different and had to be "figured out" by third-party manufacturers. I read somewhere that the same was true when the 700 first came out -- it was a good 6 months before knockoff batteries were available.

I think I'll take a chance on these, and let you know how it goes.

Is it these ones? I'll have one too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-VW-VBN...em256a0 99d8e

This is what I just ordered:

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices (http://www.ebay.com/itm/320806793605?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)

I used HD Writer AE 3.0 to make a new video from original TM900 clips, this time inserting transitions and adding a title and music track to see how fast the process is and how quality is affected.

The 3:51 minute video took 24 minutes to render. This is very fast, and means there was smart rendering - only those parts needing re-rendering were re-rendered (transitions, titles, fades, adding music).

I normallly do not add music, as I am interested in the natural sounds, and it is hard work to coordinate music and video for the music to be effective. Here I kept the music low as an experiment, leaving the natural sounds (bird songs) prominent. The music was recorded by me (original instrument ensemble).

The 108060p video (which makes use of the iZoom feature a lot) is at

Panasonic TM900 HD Video: Hong Kong Lake 2 on Vimeo

Sometimes really bad ideas and really good ones are hard to distinguish. Anybody tried this before using the TM900 or other lightweight camcorder with a DSLR? Posted originally on 7D forum. Stop laughing! : )

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eos-7d-hd/503918-dslr-tm-900-fusion.html#post1706202

Interesting idea Roger - I never thought of doing that! (and I have all the items in your picture).

On a different tack, almost exactly a year ago I was deliberating whether or not to get a discounted TM700 or wait and see if Panasonic announced an improved model. Well, you all know that I did the later and I've been delighted with the TM900's performance.

However, no cam (I currently have 5 HD Cams) is perfect... so I bet there are people out there wondering the same about the TM900. Buy now or wait, especially since its price seems to have come down gradually over the last few months (and no doubt one or two outlets are offereing them at sale prices).

So, for those that want to know, here are a few things that Panasonic could do well to improve on if and when a new model gets announced in January. This assumes they follow the same product refresh pattern as previously - I fully accept this may not be the case (because of the tragic events in Japan earlier this year).

TM900 Weaknesses - My Suggested Improvements

In no particular order:

1. Needs to go wider than 35mm. Personally I'd be prepared to trade a little off the (amazing) telephoto end in order to make this possible. 30mm or even less (as long as barrel distortion does not get out of hand) would be most welcome - indoors especially.

2. The on-board mic seems particularly prone to picking up even the slightest breeze. If I ever use it I just use it as a stereo mic anyway. Personally, I'd like them to completely re-design the mic unit so that it can at least give "acceptable results" in what people would otherwise call pleasant outdoor weather - i.e. just a light breeze! Sure, I know no on-board mic is going to produce stella results but of all the cams I own this one craps out on the audio well before any of the others...

3. Some menu changes/improvements. There are some terrific features and the cam has a good deal of manual control but certain menu options get cancelled/become unavailable as soon as the cam is turned off and then back on again (i.e. need re-setting etc.). A flexible "Custom" area in the menu structure would be terrific. I'm sure others might detail the suggested menu improvements required!

4. Panasonic did a couple of naughty tricks regarding the battery and charging arrangements when they moved up to the TM900 and all its sisters from the previous year's models. We're stuck with the newer battery design now (and I must say the 1 large and the, supplied, 1 small Panasonic batteries I have have given stella performance) but I think they really should go back to providing an off-camera battery charging option (i.e. on the "cable block"). Using the camera as a battery charger is impractical for obvious reasons (as it must be off to charge for those that don't know). Sure you can go out and buy a separate charger...so it's an irritation rather than a deal breaker, as they are not expensive.... but I think the TM700 arrangement was better.

5. Everyone would want me to add "better in low light". This is the thing we all want improved on every camera we own, is it not! However, in truth, it performs remarkably well considering the size of the sensors in that 3MOS imaging block (I put up a quick low light test on YouTube some time ago if anyone is interested). If you want a true low light king then get a different camera - but the TM900 is not what I'd call bad in low light. Comparison with my elderly Sony HC1 soon shows me how far small sensor camera performance has come in just a handfull of years!!! It wipes the floor with the Sony V1 too! Sure my EX3 and 7D are well above it - but so they should be. Use the right tool for the right job, horses for courses and all that.

Don't get me wrong, it's a stunning performer for the price and size and I still love it!

Please feel free to add/refine suggested improvements or point out other weaknesses for those considering buying, especially if I missed anything obvious.

Good Start Andy. I'd like to add to your list if the price isn't driven up significantly:

6. Fix auto exposure levels for outdoor shooting and be able to offset iA exposure levels to match manual exposure if you need to jump between manual and iA.

7. Provide spot focus via touch screen. Sony uses this on some of their cameras and its a very handy feature.

8. More rounded bokeh (more blades on iris)

9. Add LANC control.

Its a great camera and worth every penny. With a few of these mods, it would be even better!

9. Add LANC control.

This is my number 1

Wow - that was quick!

In particular, how could I have missed the tendency to overexpose in bright conditions in iAuto - silly me. (This cold I'm recovering from must have been even worse than I thought - I got it as an unwelcome Xmas present...)

Good additions!

I've been waiting for a TM900 replacement myself as an upgrade for my HV20. So i'm waiting for the "next" round of things as p50/60 is on my Must Have List and i'm hopeing the Canon will have it this round. If they do it better than Pana's next TM900 i'll go with them. But at this stage they seem to be way behind the ball in many areas but i'll have to wait and see. One thing is for sure though... with the success of the 700 and now the 900... if the next one follows suit and the Canon drops the ball i'll have no hesitation in grabbing a Pana!

Firstly, I would like to see Panasonic Australia support this model, my only only way of purchasing one is as a “grey import” - fortunately I have not required service. With this lack of interest I sometimes wonder if there will be a new model. Locally I can still buy a TM 700 at about double the price of a “grey” TM 900.

Andy, I have found charging the battery on camera to be very useful as it is possible connect a 9.3 volts supply to the camera and so avoid using the camera battery. If not actually using the camera the on-board battery is recharged by the external supply. All that is needed is a 12 or more volt battery and a few dollars worth of readily available components.
I miss LANC, but a lot can be done with a motorised control ring and the Infrared remote.

My improvement list - in addition to those already mentioned by others: -
A prerecord that can be left on permanently rather than be reset after every shot.
The ability to connect an HDMI cable without opening the finder to facilitate use in a compact under-water housing or when using the camera remotely.
An infrared remote sensor on the rear of the camera as well as on the front.
A removable infrared cut filter to enable the use of infrared illumination.
A couple of ideas from my nikon D300. It has a large and complicated menu system, however it is possible to set up a small customised menu with one’s most used items arranged in an order of one's choice.
Also in the Nikon it is possible to have consecutive picture numbers i.e. numbering can continually increment and not return to zero with each formatting. A similar unique and permanent number displayed on the TM 900 would be useful.

showing off the TM900, in good and dim light.

A Short Trip to Philadelphia using the Panasonic TM900 on Vimeo

A day in a famous city: A hall, a bell, a horse winny, flags, street music, holiday decorations, Amish, food, memorials, holiday light show.

108060p, manual shutter, aperture and sometimes focus.

I just noticed that if no one beats me to it this will be the 500th post in this thread. I would just like like to say that I have and continue to learn more about my SD900 from this thread and to hope that all the posters here have a prosperous and productive new year!

All the best

Mark