Hi Guys

I'm running two HMC72's (PAL version of the 70) and they have been absolutely flawless and totally reliable too. Great image and great audio. I shoot a wedding almost every weekend and do around 6 Realty shoots during the week so they work pretty hard!!!!

Our tax year here ends on 30th June so if I'm upgrading I need to do it before then to get maximum offset!!

Overall is the HMC80 a significant improvement over the 70???? Anyone done the upgrade from 70 to 80 and are really happy?????

Your thoughts would be much appreciated

Chris

Hi Chris,

I am interested to hear the responses too. I am currently shooting with a HMC40 as my main camera, highlights and reception complimented with a Pentax DLSR and an old DVC60 as the second ceremony cam that needs to be upgraded to HD.
Not to get off topic but how are your HMC72s in low light? We have to run lighting with the HMC40 otherwise the quality suffers.

Thanks
Adam

Hi Adam

The 70 has pretty good low light even with 1/4" CCD's ..however at the reception I always pop an LED light on the B-Cam and shoot speeches with a softbox (with 4 x50w CFL bulbs) behind me.

Doing bridal prep inside homes I never have an issue with low light..the cams perform very well inside a normal house ...it's not off topic at all cos the change from CCD's to 3MOS is my only concern!! Will it be better or worse???? The rest of the camera is almost identical!!

Chris

Thanks Chris. Of course the HMC40 pales in comparison to the DVC60 in low light but with our LED lighting it does pretty good. Brightening up the footage and smoothing out the grain with Neatvideo has been necessary a couple times. Unfortunately the color saturation is what really suffers and can't be fixed in post. I don't mind some grain, thats an easy fix. I kinda figured the HMC70 to be the replacement to the DVC60, the DVC60 is great low light.

Hi Adam

I'm toying with the idea of moving to either the HMC80 or the HMC150. I would think that the 150 would be a lot better in low light than the 80 for starters but I was brought up on shoulder mount cameras so I would also need some sort of rig to make it a quasi-shoulder mount unit.

I do Realty shoots during the week as well so a lighter camera would reduce the aches and pains of lugging an 8lb camera around for 4 hours a day!! The 150 is half that weight!! My stedicam use would be easier too!!!

However my Realty shoots only need to be SD so the new SD feature also would save me heaps of time as I wouldn't need to transcode the AVCHD footage (Does the 80 still write SD to the card??? is it in AVI format????)

It's hard to decide actually!!!

Chris

Hi Chris,

I made the switch to the Sony NXCAM, but still keep up with Panasonic HMC line. The HMC80 uses the AVI file format for SD footage. Editing should be a breeze!

We shoot everything with the 40 in HD and transcode using cineform. That makes it really easy to edit. The 80 should still write to SD card. I've read it is essentially a shoulder mount version of the 40.

Hey Adam

I do have one factor also that is a concern and that is weight...I'm 65 next birthday and the HMC72's are getting heavy..on average I'm shooting every weekend PLUS doing at least 6 hours of Realty shoots a week and the arms and muscles start to ache so a lighter camera just might be the answer.

At present the HMC150 is only about $700 more than the 80 and I would benefit from the bigger lens and bigger chips too with low light weddings.

The only other issue with the 150 would be getting a shoulder rig for it!! I wonder if you can get an offset rig for the 150 so you can have it on your shoulder and use the EVF???? or do you have to use the LCD instead???

Decisions, decisions!!!!

Chris

When I bought my HMC40 the guy threw in a shoulder mount. The 40 on the mount is way heavier than my DVC60. The mount he gave me has a counter weight on the back, even with the foam padding I can only use it for about 30min until it starts making my shoulder sore.

I will post a pic of it so you can avoid it.

Chris, I'm not going to speak to the benefits of one camera vs. another as I'm not realy familiar with the cams you are looking at however as one who is also going to be the same number as you on the next b-day and one who has not only used full sized cameras most of his career but also one who has tried many of the shoulder rigs out there, my take is this. Not only the weight of the unit but the balance of the unit. The only shoulder rig I have ever found and used that, while not the lightest of units, relieves the weight of the unit and mounted camera, is the DVMultirig. that is due to the spring rod that is attached to the unit. I, like you I'm sure, have used some very heavy camera rigs over the years but for me the balance of the rig was always more important. Yes a 26 or 28 pound rig got heavy no matter how well balanced but even an HMC150 on a should mount bracket without the spring rod to carry some of the weight is IMO worse simply because the balance is off and all the weight is carried by your arms only.
What I'm saying here is the smaller camera maynot be the end all, be all for you. I know you've been using the shoulder cams for a long time but the ones you use are fairly light. You might find you'd be better off sticking with that type of camera and perhaps invest in something like the ENG rig (made by Danny at DVTec-same as Multirig) to relieve the weight issue. I have one that I used on my JVC5000 with wireless receiver and Hytron 120 battery which made for a very heavy unit and the ENGrig made it quite reasonable to carry on my shoulder for hours on end. Also used it on my Sony DSR cameras and the unit made a world of difference.
I'm only mentioning this because were both old coots that are looking for ways to lighten our loads.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
O|O
\--/

Personally I am thinking of selling one if not both of my AG-HMC 150s and get the 80s even though the 80s are not as good in low light as the 150 I have not found a shoulder rig that really does the job for me plus I have too much anton/bauer stuff. now that Anton/bauer has a solution fot he AG-HMC 80 I may just switch. After shooting as long as I have with shoulder mount pro cameras I need something on the shoulder.

Thanks Don and Randy!!

Don, as we get older we must get wiser!! I think I would truely struggle with a handheld.A spring loaded brace just might be the answer.. I started with the Panasonic M-Series (Standard VHS) and have been a shoulder mount fan from that day onwards so staying with the format makes sense. I think I would miss the really nice features where I can do almost everything on the outside of the camera without having to delve into menus, sub-menus and touch screens!!!

I must admit, I made myself a waist strap with a simple tripod leg in the pouch attached to the camera front and it's amazing how grossly front heavy the camera is!!! Of course a simple strut doesn't allow you any sort of flexibility if you move the cam vertically although side to side is brilliant. A rig like that might just ease my aching elbows as it's obvious that I'm taking a lot of camera weight on them.

Randy..your comment is food for thought!!! You are going in the opposite direction so maybe I really do need to stick with the cameras I know best and upgrade to 80's (they are heaps cheaper too) However I do think that Don is on the right track with providing some weight relief at the lens end!!!

Chris

Chris, the Multirigs spring rod has a connection to the multirig that will aloow movement such as dutch angle, the rig of course allows side to side and the rod if kept loose will allow up and down movement.

The ENGrig for fullsize cameras has rods which attach to the camera where the front tripod foot would be. The plate has a foot moulded in so it still works on a Sony or JVC plate so the camera can still mount to that. The rod of course allows side to side and up and down movement.

However I just noticed that the setup is made for Sony and JVC cameras so I don't know that it would work on the Panny models. You'd need to check it out on Dannys site DVTEC - Home (http://www.dvtec.tv)

While the Multirig isn't cheap, it works. You can mount a wireless receiver to the back of it for balance, the mounting for the camera can adjust back and forth (I use the Manfrotto QR577 device on it so I can go from multirig to tripod or monopod with ease) I also use a Varizoom LANC controller on the right handle for zoom, record and start/stop. You can also re-configure the rig in many ways. I've never regretted investing in it for the small form factor cameras.

The problems I had with "the rigs" are out of the ones I tried which is a lot of them there was always something wrong with one of them. ie one work work well on my shoulder but not mount to a tripod OR give me an offset for the VF or have a place to mount my wireless & anton/bauer stuff OR would have a poor balance on my shoulder BUT be o.k. on the tripod OR would balance on my shoulder but be off on the tripod. For me I understand the weight issue but id rather have 7 lbs on my shoulder than 5 lbs in my hands tying to keep it steady. The only mount I saw that I am really interested in is this one Camera Plates Wings Arms and Shoulder Braces: Westside A V Studios WEB Store (http://www.westsideavstore.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=1&pg=1) but as of yet I dont know if it will work with my AG-HMC 150.

Just for interest I cut up an old fanny bag (the kinda camera case that straps around your waist) and simply cut the bag away and stitched a pocket on the padded front that was left.

I made a simple aluminium rail system under the HMC72 to give me a mounting point just under the lens hood and cut up a cheap tripod leg and attached a tiny ball head to the camera end.

Don (as usual) was 100% right...it's not the overall weight but the balance!! With the "under lens hood" support there is now no camera weight at all on my arms...wow!! what a difference!!!

Admittedly there is no spring like the ENG rig but it still works pretty well.

I think I might just stick with my love of shoulder-mount cams as the price difference between the 80 and 150 if you also factor in around $650 for a DVMultirig becomes quite a factor!!!

I would still like to hear from anyone that has owned a HMC70 and done a comparison between that and either the HMC40 or 80.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice !!!

Chris

Id like to hear a comparison between the AG-HMC 80 & the 150 because I think im going back to shoulder mount. If for $650 the rig brought everything that a shoulder mount camera offered id buy but even though it helps its still not the same. Sony has a new shoulder mount the VCT-SP2BP id like to see Panasonic make a custom shoulder mount for the AG-HMC 150 if they did it right id bite.

Hi Randy

Apparently the 150 has better low light performance due to the 1/3" chips against the 1/4" chips but both the 40 and the 80 have a sharper image than the 150!!!

While I'm shooting weddings I really do like outside controls on my camera so if I need to switch settings I don't have to stop and fool around with touch screens and menus (often sub menus too!!) I can usually do any changes I need on the HMC72 (the 80 will be the same) without having to stop filming or even take the camera off my shoulder as the joystick buttons are outside...for me that's a BIG plus...I'm not really into all the scene files that the 150 has anyway.

Over on this side of the pond I can import either camera and the 80 is currently $AUS2620 while the 152 is $3880 ... if you add the essential MultiDV Pro rig at an extra $650 then the difference becomes quite significant!!! It would cost me an extra $3170 alone if I got 2 x HMC152's and just ONE rig compared to buying 2 x HMC80's That's more than the cost of another camera for me!!!

As long as the 80 will give as good or better images than the 70, then for me it's worth it. However I cannot find anyone who can say "Yes, the image is better!!!" Panasonic haven't changed the audio side and for me it works really well!!! I also like the manual iris on the 80!!! Often I have weddings where back lighting is strong so being able to open the iris manually during filming is great

Chris

As long as the 80 will give as good or better images than the 70, then for me it's worth it. However I cannot find anyone who can say "Yes, the image is better!!!" Panasonic haven't changed the audio side and for me it works really well!!! I also like the manual iris on the 80!!!

Actually the HMC80 is a much better camera than the 70. Better chip set, better codec, has PH Mode, Better VF/LCD. More manual controls on the iris, focus and zoom. Does 1080i/24P/30P, 720/60P/24P and 30P. It also can record in 480 Standard Def. The 50Hz version would do 576. Here is the 60Hz brochure, but put in the 50Hz substitutions and I think you can get the gist. It really is a very nice camera that just flatly runs rings around the HMC70. http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/includes/pdf/AG-HMC80.pdf

Best regards,

Jan

Thanks Jan

Nothing like getting information directly from Panasonic. Really appreciated!!!

I will order one for now after the weekend and then get another and pop the HMC72's on eBay so some lucky local videographer can continue using them.

Chris

I want to thank you too Jan for the info. How do the 70 and 80 compare in low light?

Hi Adam

I'll tell you at the weekend!! I have ordered a HMC80 so I can do some comparisons between the 70 and 80 and give you my opinions ...I did look at some video of the HMC40 in low light and it gives a pretty good image even at 24db gain (the 70 only has 18db max)

A physical comparison is a lot better than guessing so I should have the cam this week so I can shoot in the same conditions and see how they compare. I really needed the 80 for the great new iris control feature on the barrel and also the fact that I can shoot for my Realty clients in 576i without having to wait for the computer to transcode the 70's AVCHD down to AVI ..that will save me at least an hour in production time!!

If you and Randy have any questions or need any tests, just let me know

Chris

Hi Guys

I have a wedding rehearsal on Sunday here so I will take my older HMC72 and the new HMC82 with me and shoot some comparative footage. I suspect the 82 will be a lot better.

What I like on initial inspection :

The camera looks impressive!!! Compared to the HMC70 the controls look like a 747's flight deck... I love the fact that you have external controls...manual iris will be a huge advantage!! Side by side the 70 looks awfully plain and bland now!!!

What I didn't like on initial inspection :

What really is disappointing is that Panasonic have removed the XLR attenuation switches and used them for the phantom power...shucks...that is a big pity!!!! It's so useful to be able to switch in the attentuator when a wedding reception gets loud!!!!! Now I will need to fiddle on my Rode mic with tiny dipswitches to attenuate the mic!! (Jan????? any idea why they took the switches out?????)

I must admit that I didn't like the fact that you cannot grab a still in camera mode!! I guess I can live with it but it's something extra to do!! With the 70 in Rec/Pause you can take your stills but on the 80's you need to hold the mode button in to switch over to Photo Mode.

Ouch!! There doesn't seem to be any assignable "beeps" when you stop and start the 80 now...it looks like the "beep sound" is reserved only for when you battery or card is running out. (Any comments from Jan at Panasonic?????)

All in all I guess I will get used to the things I am used to!!! It IS a great looking camera...I'm sure the footage will be great too!!!

More after the weekend

Chris

Hi All

As promised some quick comments "from the trenches" on using the HMC80..my wife shot the same footage with the HMC70 as a comparison.

Balance : The 80 (mine is an 82 cos it's PAL) is WAY better ...it seems the weight has shifted backwards so there is not so much forward weight on the right wrist and elbow...that's good news!!!
EVF : Much better than the HMC70 EVF ...the 70 (and 150) seem to be looking into a black box with the picture way down the end..the HMC80 is awesome...it's like the EVF is right there (which it is!!!) I must admit that some of the display data is distracting!!! I really don't need to know where the zoom is or what distance the focus is at ... it would be nice to have a little less on the screen (haven't been thru the entire manual yet to see if those can be turned off or not)

Controls : All are much the same as the 70 and are easy to use. Be careful with the iris adjust wheel..you can easily get to a stage where you aren't sure where you are and end up with poor exposure...I haven't quite figured if there is a way to reset the iris back to fully auto!!!

Footage : Brilliant!!! The 72 footage looks a bit muddy compared to the 82!!! The image is VERY sharp!!!
I shot most in 1080i so it would be fair to the 72 ... I did try the 1080 25p and images seemed to be pixelated???? So did the 720 50p footage!!! However I did mix format on the same card so that might have been the problem??? I also transcoded all MTS files in Upshift to MPEG2 at 50mbs and made all the footage progressive so the 25P and 50p that were already non interlaced might have been messed up???
When I switched to 25P the actually EVF had a considerable lag as you pan with the camera.

CMOS Pan Issues : I was quite delighted...if you pan intelligently...eg: swing around to a new subject there is no image breakup in PH mode at all...normal pans won't be an issue at all!!! I think the sensors and processing have come a long way since the issues first raised with Caqnon HV20 owners!! There doesn't seem to be any "jello effect" with normal on-shoulder shooting.

Audio : Despite the lack of attenuation switches that the 72's have..it handles my Azden output beautifully!! Then again the 70's audio was good anyway!!!!

Conclusion : I have one and the next will be ordered next week and I'll dispose of my HMC72's to offset the cost. Well worth the price and a great camera.

Anyone with any specific questions just let me know.

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the feedback, it is good to hear first hand about how the cam handles.

The pictures should be superb; it is the same gubbins inside it as my HMC41, which really is remarkable for the price. It's great to be able to use the gain and not be too worried by it, only the pixel-peepers amongst us will really notice any issues.

The footage shouldn't be pixelated, and it should matter if you mix it on the same card. How were you playing it back? Some footage doesn't play back well natively in media player software but it OK once it is transcoded and/or edited.

I'm lucky that I can play back most of the MTS files with no worries in VLC player, but it takes a fast computer.

For the viewfinder, it looks like you get the HMC41's 2.7" screen in a viewfinder assembly - so it should be good.

At least the HMC80/81/82 is a better-looking camera. The HMC7x was a bit of a monster. I just wish Panasonic could make the cameras look a bit nicer. Don't get me wrong, I love mine, I just wish it looked like it was from 2010 and not 1990.

Hey Mike

All my previous cams shot interlaced only.. the 720 50p wasn't too bad but I found that just panning the camera in 1080 25P mode gave me heaps of jerky display in the EVF.

On the 41, can you turn off any of the OSD displays..the 82 seems to have so much stuff on screen that I don't really need to see (eg: do I really want to know that I am zoomed X%?????)

Another silly question : My 72's can be set so the camera does a beep when you hit record and a double beep when you stop...it's a minor issue but it's reassuring to know that you have stopped/started recording without looking at the EVF!! Has the 41 got the same setup or are there function menus that I haven't found yet.

Dunno if the 41 has a manual iris wheel?? On the 82 you can actually "play" with it even in auto but I haven't yet discovered how to get back to full auto iris!!!

Chris

Hi Chris,

On the 41, on the "SW & DISP" menu, you can turn off:

- Lens Status (to hide zoom & focus details)
- Level Meter (the audio levels)
- Card & Battery status
- Guides (the 4:3 or safe area frames)
- Other display (er, other stuff I'm not sure of!)

I like all the "junk" in the screen, I suppose I was used to it. Only thing I really miss is not having the "rule of thirds" grid display for the LCD or viewfinder, I miss it. The eaveform monitor is pretty cool.

We have manual iris on the "little bruv" as well, although it is a combined Iris/gain wheel.

On the HMC41, the beep can be turned on via the "other" menu if you like it. I don't know if it was on by default, but if it was on, I must've turned it off straight away!

Thanks Mike

My "beep" is turned on and the monitor volume is high but it still doeasn't beep when I start and stop????

Thanks for the menu advice.... Hmmm maybe more junk on the screen is a good idea?? but I wonder if you would spot that the AF is focussing on a tree just behind the couple you are filming rather than their faces??? Besides I have turned on face detection...does that work at all???????

Shucks I missed the thirds grid being missing...yeah, I found it really useful for levelling the bowl on the tripod at weddings just line up the bottom grid line with anything horizontal and you are done.

I'm currently half way with my "changeover" ..I have one HMC82 and still have two HMC72's (gotta keep working) I'll probably use the 72's at my wedding on Saturday and then juggle putting both 72's on ebay and ordering a second 82!!!

Chris

great..now I want one:) well I have to wait until summer. Even though its not as good in low light( at least without gaining up more) I think its the best camera for me being shoulder mount with anton bauer mounts and all.