Hey Everyone,

I'm in need a of a new monitor for my Mac Book Pro to replace a pretty crumby 24" HP monitor I bought last year in a pinch (you know the kind that look great dead-on but as soon as you lean back in your chair the picture brightness drops) The 27" Apple seems like an obvious choice with the Mac Book Pro, but I'm interested to see what others might have ended up purchasing.

This fall I'm planning on upgrading my old Mac Pro tower (assuming a new FCP release) so eventually this monitor will live with a tower. In the meantime I'm hoping to use a 27" for FCP and use a Matrox Mini to drive an external preview monitor (which will probably be that crumby HP until I figure out what to get it.)

My specific question is 10 bit vs. 8 bit panels and the real-life difference between them for viewing such things as the timeline, control tabs, audio faders, etc.? I know FCP doesn't support 10 bit natively (as well or at all???) as CS5 and there is no guarantee that it will get updated anyway. It seems like a pretty big price bump to get to 10 bit in the 27" range, right? With any luck, I'll get an Eizo or NEC or perhaps broadcast JVC or Sony monitor for previewing from the Matrox MXO2 (or whatever external card I end up popping the new Mac Pro).

The last thought is I'm a bit worried about the glossy front on such a large monitor. My edit area is pretty much light controlled but I can see where light reflections could be a pain.

Any thoughts or links to websites with some relevant reviews or comparisons would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all.
Jeff

If you are looking for a high quality LCD, then look at NEC's models in the $1000 and up range and for great quality, look at Eizo. From what I have read, NEC is very close in quality to Eizo but at a reduced price. I have an Eizo CG243W and love being able to get 10bit via Premiere Pro as I also have a Quadro and they are connected via Displayport. BUT, Premiere Pro CS5 and 10bit only work on Windows 7 if I remember correctly what the Adobe guy said when I asked about why my screen would flash every time I opened a project in Premiere - he said its due to the way they have their drivers setup to work with Windows.

I went and found the 5.02 update and YES, 10bit only works with Windows. Here is the line: "Added 10-bit DisplayPort support for NVIDIA Quadro cards on Windows.".

About glossy screens, I always thought that manufacturers used them to make the screen's display look better. That means the image on the screen is altered.

PS Stay FAR away from Sony's LUMA branded LCDs. I have never heard so many people hate something so expensive as the Sony LUMA LCDs.

Thanks Steve, I read a nice review on an NEC monitor with Colorview self-calibration a little while back so I am looking at NEC. It doesn't look like they offer much in the 10bit range but I'm unclear of the benefit of that using FCP anyway. I guess it is always best to future proof when possible but I'd hate to spend extra coin chasing the 10 bit spec alone if it doesn't add much for my workflow (editing 80% AE 20%)

Looking over the specs on your Eizo I see it is 1920x1200. If you full-screen preview HD video on that monitor is it one-to-one or does the picture aspect ratio get scaled up from 1920x1080 to 1900x1200 (does that make sense)? Finally, do you know if 10bit is necessarily or preferable for color grading regular 1920x1080 HD video? I currently could only feed it 8bit I think anyway.

Thanks in advance!
-Jeff

I have a decent BenQ 1920x1080 monitor attached to my MBP, and a 27" iMac that will also serve as a display for the MBP -- there is no comparison in working with the two, the Apple display is better in every way. Not least because it has vastly better resolution -- once you're used to a screen resolution of 2560x1440 it is hard to go 'down' to 1920x1080 -- but it also has better colour and contrast than the BenQ I use. I forget the model off-hand, but it was a high end screen that was discontinued in favour of cheaper (and poorer) alternatives -- point is, go for the Apple.

And take a look at using an entry level iMac as a screen -- you gain the benefit of a second computer should you need one, and the price difference between Apple Cinema and iMac is not extraordinary.

Cheers,
GB

Thanks for the info.

Geoff, I didn't realize you could use an iMac as a screen. I'll have to look into it.

If I don't do the 27" apple display then I'm leaning towards this a 27" NEC for the editing screen:
NEC MultiSync PA271W-BK-SV 27" Widescreen PA271W-BK-SV B&H

and maybe the smaller 24" as the external NTSC display driven with a Matrox MXO2 mini.
NEC MultiSync PA241W-BK-SV 24.1" Widescreen PA241W-BK-SV

This may be more of a Matrox forum question, but I'm a little in the dark in regards to the color calibration puck (in case of NEC it is the Spectraview). Since the color puck uses software to control and calibrate the monitor will it still work even though the monitor won't be driven by the computer's graphic card but instead driven by the MXO? Obviously the main display will use the graphic card but the external won't. This is hard to articulate.

Alternatively, I could use a high quality LCD TV as the NTSC preview or cough up the big bucks for a pro monitor.,

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

That is a healthy budget but I would focus the money on the Matrox connected LCD as this is your color critical display. Maybe the Dell 27" for the main display and the NEC for the MXO2.

For calibration, you need a monitor that can be 'hardware' calibrated where the info is stored in the monitor itself like my Eizo CG243W. This hardware calibration lets you move the monitor to any connection, but you must first connect it to a computer to run its calibration software. Then, every 1-2 months, re-calibrate it.

I presume your Mac can output dual-link resolution which is anything over 1920x1200.

Let me head off your next question: the NEC calibration puck & software should work with a non-NEC LCD such as the Dell. I haven't checked, but you might be able to save money by getting the NEC LCD without the puck and buy the $120-140 i1 LE, which is what I use with my Eizo and Dells. NEC usually has 2 ways of buying their LCDs: just the LCD and both the LCD & Puck.

OK, I just checked and the 27" with puck is $410 MORE expensive.

Hurry: there is a 25% off coupon for the Dell U2711 that ends Feb 6.
25% Coupon Dell UltraSharp U2711 27-in 2560 x 1440 (WQHD) LCD Monitor - LogicBUY (http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/dell-ultrasharp-u2711-27-inch-lcd-monitor/18859.aspx)

At newegg, the Eizo CG243W is only $2249. Newegg.com - EIZO CG243W-BK Black 24.1" 5 ms Height,Swivel,Pivot & Tilt Adjustable IPS Panel Widescreen LCD Monitor w/USB Ports 270cd/m2 850:1 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824136065)

So, that is $824 + 2249= $3073.

Then add an HDMI to DP converter and you can possibly get 10bit as the MXO2 outputs 10bit. Amazon.com: DisplayPort to HDMI Video Adapter Converter: Electronics

Steve, this is excellent advice. The 17" MBP does drive up to 30" dual-link monitors according to the Apple site. I'm hoping to upgrade to a new desktop machine later this year since my laptop is faster than my 5 year old Mac Pro at the current. Anyway...

(edit, new question): Do you any idea how the EIZO CG243W-BK stacks up against broadcast monitors?

Last question: is the Dell better than the 27" Apple display? I don't like the glossy apple surface, but it does play well with the laptop and it is a sharp looking display--aesthetically speaking .

Thanks

(Got to love replying to your own post / talking to yourself online)

Ok, so looking at the Dell 27" I see it gets great reviews, as does it's larger brother the 30", however the HP ZR30w seems to be a great option vs. the Dell 30" and only a couple hundred more than the 27" Apple I was leaning towards originally and about the same price as the Dell--assuming the current sale posted above.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the HP ZR30w?
HP / Hewlett-Packard ZR30w 30" Widescreen LCD VM617A8#ABA

It doesn't have HDMI in, speakers, or OSD -- but the review below seems to prefer it over the Dell in terms of picture quality and build and frankly I just need a display port in and maybe a DVI input just in case.

A New 30" Contender: HP ZR30w Review - AnandTech :: Your Source for Hardware Analysis and News (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3754/a-new-30-contender-hp-zr30w-review)
Dell U3011 Review: Dell's New 30-inch Flagship - AnandTech :: Your Source for Hardware Analysis and News (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4070/dell-u3011-review-dells-new-30-inch-flagship)

Maybe I'll step up to a 30" for editing, roll with the MX02 mini connecting to my older 24" HP for a few weeks while I decide if the Ezio is in the budget.

Thanks.
Jeff

This is the color puck that I use. It works with Eizo's calibration software and includes its own software to calibrate non-Eizo monitors such as my Dell Ultrasharp LCDs.
X-Rite i1Display LT Color Management Solution EODLT B&H Photo

Eizo CG243W vs Broadcast monitors: I really only have one to compare it to, a Panasonic BT-LH1710W, and the Eizo is definitely better. The Eizo is designed to compete against the HP Dreamcolor, which was designed to replace CRT broadcast monitors under $5,000. I chose the Eizo because it got better reviews compared to the Dreamcolor; it is a newer design whereas the HP is 3-4 yrs old; and the Eizo doesn't have all the requirements of progressive & rgb inputs in order to get the full benefit of its color engine.

Dell vs Apple: the Dell includes a 3yr warranty vs only 1yr on the Apple. The Dell's warranty is the best as it covers a single dead pixel within 3yrs. The Dell has several inputs (HDMI, DVI, DP...) whereas the Apple has only 1 (mini-DP).

Again, Steve thanks! I ended up ordering the X-Rite puck and rolled the dice on a 30" HP. The Mac display loses because the screen is glossy and doesn't have a very flexible stand. Does look sexy though...

I bought this:
HP / Hewlett-Packard ZR30w 30" Widescreen LCD VM617A8#ABA

It seems to best the Dell in a few reviews but people complain it doesn't scale inputs up and it doesn't have HDMI in nor speakers. Like I said in an earlier post, I just want the displayport in and wouldn't feed it anything less than its native resolution and have no need for audio in it anyway. I'm excited to get this thing calibrated and working and look forward to more screen real estate.

Next up will be the MXO2 mini w/ max and probably the Ezio you have since I'll already have a X-Rite.

I'll report back once it arrives -- unless someone can speak now and convince me to buy Dell.

Thanks again,
Jeff

The main problem with the HP is no OSD for changing certain settings. I can't recall exactly what I read about that monitor when it was first released, but I do recall something about not being able to adjust settings. In order for the X-rite to work, you must have access to color and contrast/brightness settings in the monitor.

I'll find out tomorrow! Good thing B&H has a pretty good return policy if need be.

The HP does have brightness and contrast control buttons, but like the Apple displays they are moving away from having the monitor do anything other than just being a panel filled with pixels. I guess I'll find out, eh? They said in a review that it even helps latency and lag issues which probably only helps with gaming more so than video editing (though I wish I could edit so fast that the display struggled to keep up--I'd be able to get to the bar an extra hour or two earlier!)

Hi all, I just wanted to follow up to say that I am extremely pleased with the HP ZR30w. 30" (+17" for Bins, Effects, Scopes) is really a terrific way to edit in Final Cut and the monitor looks brilliant. I'm very happy I spent the extra couple of hundred to get this instead of the 27" Apple Cinema Display. The matte finish, the wonderful and fully adjustable (unlike Apple) stand, and 10 bit panel seals the deal.

The monitor doesn't have OSD as discussed above, but i1Display2 did a great job of calibrating it anyway. Looking at the bars through a blue filter that came with a calibration DVD some years back, I feel pretty confident that I'm getting a display I can trust for color correcting and levels. I still want to get an Ezio, or other, for external preview from a Matrox box, but at this point I can safely edit since the preview window in Final Cut is 12" wide!

I'd add this to the list if anyone is shopping around and looking at the 27" Apple Cinema Display.

Thanks all.
-Jeff

In case you didn't know, FCP requires an external I/O for accurate color representation. Apple states in the FCP manual that the canvas cannot be used for accurate color.

Now that you mention it I do recall reading that. I'll be sure to not trust the canvas too much as I wait for the external I/O device. I hope I can get it sooner rather than later.

Thanks again Steve.

I was having the same questions as the original poster, was shopping around for a monitor. Dell had a 25% off sale on some of their ultra sharp monitors, and picked up (what I thought was a) good deal on their U3011. This thing is a beast, I love it. I had never seen a 30 inch monitor in person, and couldn't imagine the size of this thing. I had thought I might want 2 of these, but one, and my older 19 inch, next to it, for bins, and whatever else I need is a good setup for me.

I agree 100%. 30" is a real nice way to work. I'm glad I passed on the ACD and went with HP ZR30w.

I'm still shopping for a preview monitor, btw (for those of you that are fascinated enough to following this exciting post) to go along with MXO2 mini for preview out of FCP.

So far I'm leaning towards the Eizo CG243w (or 245w with auto calibration adapter built in) on Steve K's recommendation and from reading online, the HP DreamColor, or toying with the idea of a JVC 24" Broadcast model.

Eizo ColorEdge CG245W 24.1" Widescreen LCD CG245W-BK B&H

Eizo ColorEdge CG243W 24.1" Widescreen LCD CG243W-BK B&H

HP / Hewlett-Packard DreamColor LP2480zx 24" GV546A8#ABA

JVC DT-R24L4DU 24" Studio Monitor w/HD-SDI DT-R24L4DU B&H

I suspect the IPS panels in the Eizo and HP are true 10-bit, whereas the JVC says 10-bit processing. But the JVC is interesting in that it also connects to a i1 Display for calibration and of course has lots of useful video features such as audio meters, blue-only, screen markers, and audio i/o in addition to being rugged enough to go out on the the occasion shoot. The model above this one also has waveform/vectorscope which is cool but getting way over my head at $3800 and probably more useful for location and production than post. The only benefit I can see to having scopes on the monitor is to verify the signal coming in from the i/o device matches with what the NLE's scopes are displaying.

Has anyone seen the JVC's? I guess I should start a new thread asking that.

Jeff

Hey Jeff,

If you will only use the Mini, you are limited to its HDMI, which supports HDMI-to-DVI adapters. For color monitoring while editing, you want a monitor that has a low brightness which is why the Eizo's max out at 270 cd/m2. During calibration, the optimum brightness is 120 cd/m2. You should also realize that many cheap monitors fall apart when set to such a low brightness. For production use, you want a bright monitor to handle all the lights around it or outside which is why the JVC is 400 cd/m2. And yes, this JVC is only 8bit - under its specs, it lists 16.7 million colors.

I would check to see if the Matrox supports a HDMI to Displayport cable which is another way to get a 10bit signal to one of the 10bit monitors. However, the Mini only supports 8bit RGB or 10bit YCbCr. This means the HP cannot display 10bit with the Mini as it requires a 10bit Progressive RGB signal. Neither Eizo has this limitation. If you use Premiere Pro, the Mini can only output 1080i for a 1080 23.98p project.

For calibration, both Eizo's and HP are 'hardware' calibrated meaning you connect it to any computer and run the calibration. Then the calibration settings are stored within the monitor so you can move it to any other computer or device and use those calibration settings.

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the info on the monitor and brightness levels. I never thought about brightness levels in that way and would have read the specs and thought the JVC's higher rating was a plus for post work. You are really helping me connect the dots.

I remember reading in a previous post of yours that the Eizo does display 10bit YUV in addition to 10bit RGB, which if I understand correctly the HP doesn't since it is an older design. That is a big plus, but like you said I'm not 100% sure I can get 10bit from the Matrox Mini doing the HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-Displayport route. Do you know if a 10bit YUV progressive signal from the Mini's HDMI port via HDMI-to-DVI adapter would work into the Eizo and still be 10bit? Obviously on the Dreamcolor I'd have to go out 8bit RGB progressive.

I'm not married to this Matrox Mini, btw. I bought it used at BH and still in the return range so I could look into other options if need be. I'm on FCP and I'm guessing that at some point Apple will get their stuff together and maybe catch up with Adobe so I'm not real amped to spend money on i/o boxes until I see what the new features are later this year. Either way I like the idea of having a nice display I can grow in to.

Last Eizo question--do you ever have the pleasure of viewing SD content? I assume with 1:1 it just uses 720x486 worth of the screen and leaves the rest black. Correct? My larger client still finishes in SD, though I typically keep it HD until the very end. It ends up on the web, so this is all sort of a moot point I suppose, but I want to know that I'm sending out accurate stuff.

Thanks
Jeff

Unfortunately, DVI is only 8bit on all monitors I know of. I take that back - apparently, the new CG275W is 10bit on all ports (DVI, DP, mini-DP). And again, I found another monitor with 10bit DVI, the CG303W.

I have my Eizo connected via Displayport via the video card (Quadro) so I use it as a normal monitor; however, I use it with Premiere Pro CS5 which supports a full 10bit path in addition to allowing me to send either RGB or YUV signals.

For new I/O hardware coming soon, I bet most of it is based around Intel/Apple's new Thunderbolt. If you plan on upgrading your computer in the next year, it might not hurt to stick with the Mini for now and then see what is available. Otherwise, another current option is the Aja IO Express. I have no experience with this device but Aja has always been rock solid.

I can't find if the Eizo uses one-to-one pixel mapping but I would assume it does.

The MXO2 mini seems to have many lovers and haters. I'm getting some odd audio issues and a quick trip to the Matrox forum indicates others are having issues too. I'll deal with it later and in the meantime I'll investigate other options. I have a Blackmagic Intensity Pro in an older machine, but that one is pretty long in the tooth.

On the Eizo, do you set the REC709 color space and then run calibration or is it a either/or thing?

I need to just download the manual to read over it I think.

Thanks again,
Jeff

With the Eizo, there are presets for several color spaces: Rec 709, sRGB, DCI and 2 more. For calibration, there are 'calibration' presets which allow you to calibrate and save for easy and quick changing. For me, I have Rec 709 and Rec 601 (aka SMPTE-C) saved as calibrations. So, you set it to one of the 'Calibration' presets and run the ColorNavigator software with your X-rite puck. There is also a 'Custom' preset that allows you to manually change settings in the monitor and save it.

Are you using a MacBook Pro with expresscard or a Mac Pro?

Steve, I'm using a Macbook pro w/ expresscard at the moment since it is faster than my older Mac Pro tower. I'm guessing that if work keeps steady (and assuming they release a new FCP) I could see myself buying a new desktop by year's end.

Thanks

wow, the eizo CG243W is now under $2000 @ BH.

Eizo ColorEdge CG243W 24.1" Widescreen LCD CG243W-BK B&H

WOW! That is almost a $400 drop since our last discussion. If you can afford it, jump all over it.

Btw, this happened after I bought my Eizo as well but it was about a month after so I couldn't bug Abel Cine to match B&H's price again.

If you can, order it from Abel Cine. They have always bent over backwards to match prices and exchange gear I didn't want. Only time they couldn't match price is on CF cards for a nanoFlash and Kino Diva 401s but I still ordered from AC.