I have a project where I have to film from the deck of a motor launch in sheltered coastal waters. I will be shooting large ships in close proximity and little zoom will be required as we are going for wide views. EX1 will be on a tripod and normally I would have the optical stabilizer turned off, but I wonder if that is the best option for this situation. There will be some small waves, boat movement and I imagine some vibration from the boats motor . . . . any thoughts?

I shot some footage from a speedboat - we slowed the motor down so there was a steady forward motion. Using a tripod is a "no go" the camera will go up and down with the motion, this will make the viewer sea sick.. The best results I achieved was hand holding the camera with image stabiliser ON. Having said that, I had to throw out about 30% of the material due to vibration and other movement. However, by hand holding I could adjust for any slight deviation in boat movement.

If the motorboat youre on is planning, you cannot hold it still - just below planning is the best speed.
I have great luck recording in 1280x720 50P and with 1/100 shutter and then using mercalli stabilizer when editing. Have not tried the image stabilizer - cant you try that first. My guess is that it would help.

I spent many years filming the world windsurfing tour from all kinds of boats from RIB's to luxury yachts. The most stable platforms were often the yachts, especially under sail. RIB's are appalling as they rock and roll in every direction. As Vincent said a moving boat will generally be more stable than a stationary one. A good skipper will be able to read the water and take the boat along the tops of any swell which help. We always shot handheld. Sometimes you end up fighting the image stabiliser as there is some lag in it's operation which can make you overcompensate, but generally we did use stabilisers when available.

It really helps if you wear a large belt and get a seated assistant to help keep you steady by holding on to your belt while you stand up to shoot. The center of the boat will tend to move less than the ends or sides. Consider a lanyard to attach the camera to the boat and wear a life vest. You never know when a wave will rock the boat, especially when looking at the viewfinder and composing a shot. It's easy to suddenly loose your balance and either you or the camera could end up over the side very quickly!

Salt spray is incredibly corrosive to aluminium bodied cameras, so get a good tight fitting rain cover. A chamois leather will make a good lens cloth as it will work when wet. After the shoot clean anything that has been on the boat by wiping it down with a cloth soaked with water with a few drops of white vinegar. The vinegar neutralises the salt and helps stops corrosion. Once the salt gets onto any bare aluminium it will start to eat into it and it's almost impossible to stop further corrosion. Watch for any white powdery residue around screws etc on the camera, a sure sign of salt corrosion.

The best results I achieved was hand holding the camera with image stabiliser ON.
Same situation, my experience also.

If you need super smooth footage gyros are the way to go:

Kenyon Labs stabilizers (http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html)

I have shot a lot on speedboats and patrol boats and I usually use a Stedicam. The heavier the rig the smoother the footage. Having a 6'4" Texan called Kurt holding onto you really helps as well.

I would use the IS. I often do if I have a cam with it. Often larger cameras don't have it.

A few times in smoother water I have used the "Fig Rig" on smaller cams like EX3 and 1R.

I use plastic garbage bags on all my gear when out in salt water.



http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachments/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/20420d1290625809-5d-kit-purchase-tell-me-what-you-think-steadycomp1.jpg

I agree with Olof on this you need gyros if shooting from one boat to another. The rig has to be handheld and you need to be use to the boats movement. Do not use a tripod!!!

And when you use gyros you need two one under the camera in line with the lens and one off the back perpendicular to the other gyro. Always use the IS.

Here is picture of my old EX1 rig with two gyros I use for shooting with that camera from boat to boat.

Stay wide, do a small squat with your legs so you move with the boat and keep the lens steady. It is a fun workout for hours with both gyros, battery, and bent legs. I have been doing this for over 25 years and love it, this is what starting me in shooting in the first place when my business was coaching sailing and pro racing. Have Fun it is much better then being in a studio.

See post #7 in this thread for the picture.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/488951-shoulder-rigs-zacuto-vs-rr-vs.html

Nice little setup Paul. Are those KS-4 gyros? Your stabilizing stick looks like a Steadystick. Others should know these are not a well advertised item. It is essentially a collapsible rod that under the tension of the camera and a waist-belt keeps the camera in a buoyant state. I have never used a Steadystick but have used a similar contraption with the much more ostentatious "Media Rig".

I would think a full blown Steadicam would be quite dangerous in a boat as the inertial forces of a Steadicam are quite formidable when large forces come into play like a helicopter arcing and spinning as well as a boat in a large swell.

Hi Andrew,

Those are KS-8's I found KS-4's are too small.

The spring loaded pole is from DVTEC - Home (http://www.dvtec.tv) . I have three different lengths and have had them for years. They help to balance out the load, you can't put too much weight on the springs or it will just bounce. But over a long day the springs are a great help.

I know Olof has used a Steadicam on a boat but I have not. It would be very limiting and you are right once it starts one way and the boat has to go another way quickly you have a tough fight.

Interesting thread.
I have never thought about using stabilisers.

Here are two examples.
The first is Fig Rig/Sony A1.
The second is Fig Rig/Canon 5D.

Ocean Pearl - Setting Sail on Vimeo

Ocean Pearl - Last Sail Of The Season on Vimeo

Richard the gyros make a big difference. As I said above not as much while on the boat as shooting from boat to boat. But they still help while on the boat.

I'll second what Paul says about Gyros, although I prefer to have the camera in my hands than on my shoulder. I attach a single KS8 to the base of the camera and that allows my arms to absorb more movement than if it was on my shoulder. One gyro can not stabilize all axises of movement though, so it isn't perfect but I like to keep my rig light when on the water. I'd like to try Paul's rig as it would stabilize all axises but is obviously more costly and heavier.

Definitely no to a tripod and you also need to be extremely careful if using Steadicam as it could pull you to the bottom of the sea! Personally I would stick with handheld. As Alistair said, wrap the gear as nothing kills cameras faster than salt water.

If the budget is there, a helicopter is normally a better option.

You took the words out of my keyboard Mike, Steadycams are not an ideal substitute for a life jacket.

You took the words out of my keyboard Mike, Steadycams are not an ideal substitute for a life jacket.

When I shoot with the Stedicam on a boat, I always wear 2 inflatable PFD's. The camera also comes of the west instantly if you pull the arm up. And then there is Kurt for emergencies, as well as a few others on the boat or the boat/boats we are shooting.

Depending on the boat, I am sometimes clipped in as well. Been doing this for 25+ years, haven't drowned yet.

"When I shoot with the Stedicam on a boat, I always wear 2 inflatable PFD's."

I thought you were just putting on weight :-)

I'm sure your method works well for you, we all have our own techniques for doing things, the original poster has been given plenty of options.

I second the others here who say definitely do not use a tripod. It will pick up not only the rocking motion of the boat but also engine vibrations which will extend all the way through to your camera without anything to abosrb it in between.

I've shot surfing as well as sailing (International 49ers, 29ers, 12ft skiffs) from motor boats and, found handheld to be the easiest option. Shoot as wide as possible as much as you can to minimise any movements. Get as close as possible/permittable to the subject and make sure you communicate a lot with your driver - it's always good to know when he's about to make a turn, change speeds, or hit chop.

Good point John. Your captain should always tell you what he is doing before he does it. Taking speed of the ship feels like braking and with both hands on the camera, you could easily fall.

It is very difficult to tell others exactly what to do. Steadicam would probably be very good but maybe there just isnt room enough for using it on the ship.
Tell you to go handheld, does not help, if you cannot hold the camera steady. I have seen several good fotografs that can do handheld on land - unable to do a good job on a boat. I have been sailing always and I have learned it - I would say that if you can hold a cup, full of coffe, on the boat in a storm, without spilling - you might be good enough for doing handheld on a boat :)

We always use headsets so you are hand free to communicate. This makes for no yelling or turning your head off the subject and you can communcate quickly and clearly. I tend to use the same drivers on most jobs who are top sailors in their own right so they know what the fleet is going next.

As John says chasing skiffs is a challenge and takes a high skill level by the whole team to produce a great shot.

Bo makes a great point it takes someone with experience on the water to understand how to move with the boat. Looking through the camera you need so sense the boat and not take your eye off the job at hand. This is what makes it fun.

Pleanty of examples of how not to do this on the web.

One other point if you are trying for a high end broadcast shot is go CCD. I see a huge difference between my CMOS and CCD cameras. CCD is a big step up in motion shots. And now Canon has made this one step better with their new IS 2/3" B4 lens. It use to be Schwem with Betacam but with HD you need a HD lens to capture the best contrast and have sharp edges.
http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/pdf/ProfilesInsert2010_rev.pdf

Here's a rough cut of a story I'm doing on building a boat.

http://hawaiigoesfishing.com/videos/makau23.mov

Lots of open water shooting at speeds about 15 or 20 knots. It's all handheld with a shoulder brace, shot from a 24-foot Radon fishing boat. If someone does hold onto me, I always ask that they hold onto my belt. Holding onto my shoulders makes things worse as my upper body provides most of the stabilization.

I stand near the stern, as close to the centerline as possible, and keep my legs a bit more than shoulder width apart. My knees are always bent. The same principle that works for skiers works for this type of shooting.

As for a body-mounted stabilizer, I wouldn't do that. Even if you're wearing a PFD, you might not float face-up. At the very least you should have a way to instantly detach the rig from your body. If I were to use a stabilizer I'd have it mounted on the boat instead, and isolated from vibrations.

I'd also wrap it in plastic. As others have said, salt spray is very corrosive. You'll want to wipe it down with a solution of Salt Away afterward, and then treat all metal with Corrosion-X.

Ohh - yes Paul is right - you must have a CCD kamera on that job.

I've done a lot of work from boats, planes and cars with CMOS cameras and always been able to obtain good results. If you shot is steady and vibration free there is no reason why CMOS should not produce good pictures.

Dean nice job. With all of your shooting on the water have you tried gyros or one of the gyro lens? I think you would like the results.

When you use gyros they are not mounted to your body like the Steadicam they are on the rig and just part of the camera you hold. The battery is on your waist with a Fastec clip.

Bo, no need to make wise comments it just shows you don't know the difference. CCD will outperform CMOS every time with fast motion, so my point was if you want the best then go with CCD. I have used CMOS and had great results and still use my CMOS camera when I need light and quick movement in tight spaces, as Alister says with experience you can make it work. But for me if it is a money shot for broadcast it is CCD every time!

Well - sorry for the short comment but saing that I don't know the difference, that's to far out.
I have problems with rolling shutter at some unstable shots and it is very easy to find others that have the same problem.
If there is any instability at the camera it would produce problems like in this video - jello.
Jellocam boat on Vimeo

And we were talking about filming from a not very stable point- right. I use my PMW-EX350 and my EX3 a lot - but I would not consider using them on a boat. I was looking for an old clip here on DV info that showed the rolling shutter effect very clearly, from a boat, but unfortunately I could not find it.

Understand Bo I should have not said that not knowing you and your work, sorry.

That clip is what scares me with CMOS and also the skewing. That is an extreme example and even a lot less is still hard to take. As I mentioned I have to use my EX1/Nano at times but I am very careful with the shot and normally it is WA or fisheye. My PMW-500 does a great job as long as I do my part.

But that clip was shot with a 5D and the Jello was most likely caused by bumping the camera and setting up vibration on a tripod that's too flimsy for the lens being used. Without the Jello the beginning of the shot would probably have been too wobbly to have been used by most people.

The EX is in a different league compared to the 5D when it comes to Jello. Sure CCD doesn't have Jello problems, we all know that and if I try hard enough I can turn my EX pictures to Jello. But how many people hand on heart can say that they have had a shot that would otherwise have been OK, ie vibration, wobble, shake, excessive movement free etc spoilt by Jello? Shoot it right and Jello should not be a problem.

Alister you are right shoot it properly and most of the time it will be OK. Only with really fast motion will it not work well. And yes 5D is a whole different beast then the EX camera line. I own both and only use the 5D for time-lapse and stills.

The EX is in a different league compared to the 5D when it comes to Jello. Sure CCD doesn't have Jello problems, we all know that and if I try hard enough I can turn my EX pictures to Jello. But how many people hand on heart can say that they have had a shot that would otherwise have been OK, ie vibration, wobble, shake, excessive movement free etc spoilt by Jello? Shoot it right and Jello should not be a problem.

Alister, I doubt you have seen this, but a new TV series is running here in the US on the Discovery Channel called "Gold Rush Alaska". I was watching it the other night and they had all the usual nicely shot footage, but they also had some horrendous B-roll footage of a vibrating machine that is used to separate gold from the rocks and dirt. This shot redefined the term "Jellovision". This hulking, steel sifting machine looked like it was made out of soft rubber as it shook in front of the camera lens. I wonder if the network has any guidelines as to what percentage of footage can be shot with CMOS cameras?

I do not have any materiel to show you recorded on a boat with a CMOS camera. Although I do have several things recorded on boats. I have two exampels -Both are recorded on my HPX 2100.
This could easily be made on a CMOS camera.

Recording on a boat CMOS could be used. on Vimeo

And on this one, I would not recommend a CMOS camera for the job.

Recording on a boat CMOS not recommended. on Vimeo

Making things like this you cannot always know the weather conditions and how much room you have to work on. If youre in the steady world with no fast panning - you could use the CMOS camera. But there is conditions where you could get problem with the rolling shutter, it is when birds are sitting in a tree and when the wind is moving the boughs.

I've been trying to find this clip for a couple days. It goes back to the early days of the EX1 forum and shows some pretty serious "jellovision" onboard a boat:

EX1 filming on vibrating boat (http://www.mdma.tv/ex1/cmos_vibration.html)

dave

Bo thanks for the clips.

Dave that is an extreme example.

We know vibration to be an issue, but vibration can (and should) in most cases be isolated from the camera. If you are not isolating it from the camera adequately then the pictures would most likely appear soft anyway. Shooting with a high speed shutter will also make the problem worse. There will be some shots that will cause issues, but in reality these are quite rare. Was the Alaska footage shot with an EX?? Did the operator use an appropriate shutter speed?

In this thread some people who have not done the types of shot being asked about with an EX are saying it would be ill advised, yet don't have the substance to back up that advice, just speculation.

Here is a real example of real footage shot with an EX from a rocking, bobbing, vibrating boat. I chose some of the wobbliest, worst bits but I can't see anything that would prevent me from using the footage, other than the excessive camera movement, which is not the fault of the EX.
Using CMOS (EX1) to shoot from boats on Vimeo

Some people read through these forums and have the fear of God put into them over CMOS and Skew issues. Yes they exist and people should be aware of them, but it has to be put into perspective. I see it all the time at the workshops that I run, where someone has read somewhere that you can't pan or shoot from a moving car etc. Skew is not going to cause most people issues under normal shooting conditions. If skew really was such a big deal I wouldn't be able use them for my severe weather shoots where I shoot from moving cars and get buffeted by hurricane force winds.

I've been trying to find this clip for a couple days. It goes back to the early days of the EX1 forum and shows some pretty serious "jellovision" onboard a boat:
EX1 filming on vibrating boat (http://www.mdma.tv/ex1/cmos_vibration.html)
dave


I do not believe for one second that this video was shot with a properly functioning EX1.
That's right, I'm saying it's total BS unless someone can produce the original clip with metadata.

Alister I do not think the skew or rolling shutter problem in those clips. I do think it is too shaky and blown out a bit.

I will post a clip that is the worst shake I would let go to a client two years ago. My standards have gone up. It was shot a few years ago and hand held not stabilizer just the EX1. Let me find it and I will post the link.

And by no means am I saying the EX1 is not up to the job. The EX1 is the best money making camera I have owned and that is why there is still one in the kit. But I am always looking to upgrade my footage and my client base whIch I have done a great job at over the years. That is why I always try to give advice that has helped me move up the ladder quickly and suggest CCD and gyros or gyro lens.

Will post the worst shake clip I allow shortly.

Doug,
Why would someone use 1/500 on a shot like that? Just helps prove what you are saying.

Here is the clip I mentioned all shot with EX1 hand held no stabilizer and no shoulder mount. This is the most shake I would feel right to give a client.

Alerion 33 sailing clips By Paul Cronin On ExposureRoom (http://exposureroom.com/members/PaulCronin/4d9fba655ae2486296bbb038199368de/)

I am aware of the problems in telling the problems of a camera that someone own and love.
As a mother they would defend it with fists and nails. It is okay. I do love my ex 3 and use it for the most of my recordings - but as with my children - someone is better doing something than the others are. That does not mean that I do not love them all. I can see the great job my ex3 and PMW-EX350 does - but also the benefits you can obtain, using the CCD in my HPX2100. There must also be a reason why Sony makes a high cost SxS camera with CCD's - just said if you do not believe my word which is not followed by metadata.....

Bo, I think Doug was talking about Dave's post not yours.

He was - I just do not know how to transfer metadata to a forum :)
Guess we just have to trust what people say when they are saying that they filmed something with a certain camera. Like Alisters that - from my guess - easily could have been filmed with a CMOS camera.
Guess we are moving away from the point - could you film a boat standing on another, with the optical stabilizer on or off.
From a big sailboat you can film another boat on the water without problems and with the optical stabilizer on - and yes, my guess would be that you can do it with a CMOS camera as well as a CCD camera. But if you - as I can - take the camera I want for a certain job - I would choose a CCD camera to be certain of the best product.

Bo, you can cut and paste the metadata from the XDCAM transfer. And if it is .MXF it is on the disk or card. Not sure how to get it off the panasonic.

I am sure Doug knows a better way.

Paul: Those clips of mine are intended to show that even when the camera is wobbling all over the place skew is not an issue. They are not clips that made it into the finished piece and I'm not proud of them. The shooting conditions were far from ideal, choppy, confused sea with some swell and a 4m RIB (not my choice). Yes they are hot, but I was just trying to stay in the boat. TBH the shoot was a disaster, mainly down to the wrong camera boat being provided by the client.

Bo, your getting CCD and CMOS muddled in your posts. My footage is CMOS. I had the choice of my EX1 or a PDW-700 for that shoot. I chose the EX1 as on a very small boat it's easier to manage, especially when the sea is far from smooth. I was not worried about whether it was CMOS or CCD, the compact size and image stabiliser made the EX1 the better choice for me on that particular shoot.. There is more to producing the best product than whether the camera has a CCD sensor or a CMOS one.

He was - I just do not know how to transfer metadata to a forum :)


Bo, I was not addressing any comments to you, nor do I have any interest in seeing your metadata. Paul is correct, I'm referring to the video Dave Morrison linked to. That is the one that I want to see proof that it was really shot with an EX1. I simply don't believe it was shot with a properly running, production model EX1. In over three years of shooting with the EX1, in hundreds of situations, I have never seen anything that came even close to what that video claims to show. It looks like an SLR to me. I do not believe it was actually shot with an EX1. Period. I'd become a believer if I could see the original clip with metadata. Until then, I'm not buying it.

There is more to producing the best product than whether the camera has a CCD sensor or a CMOS one.

Alister, you are exactly right. I could not agree with you more. I'd have no second thoughts about taking any of the XDCAM EX camcorders out on a boat. Nor would I have any second thoughts about using my Canon XF305 on a boat, which is also CMOS. But I'd never shoot anythng with that kind of motion with an SLR.

I apologize if anybody thinks I threw a skunk into the room with that clip. If it wasn't from an EX1, I'll apologize to one and all without hesitation. When this thread began, I immediately remembered this clip simply becasue it WAS so extreme. I came across it back when I first started hanging around this forum and bookmarked it at the time so that I'd know what "jellovision" looked like. If it was shot with another brand or type of camera, I never would have bookmarked it as it would not add anything to my research re: the EX1.

I'll go back and search the archives for the original posting and the link that lead to this clip, but please know (Doug) that I would not knowingly try to cast any aspersions on the EX1. I love the camera very much. Off to search.....and to try to get Doug's blood pressure back down! ;-)

Alister I was not saying you used that in a production. Only stating the other problems I saw with the footage.

I am in full agreement that the EX1 will work fine shooting from a boat as my clips shows. Also stand behind my statement that with CCD you will have higher grade footage on the same shoot as you would expect.

Lets move on.

Here you go, Doug:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/125860-rolling-shutter-vibration-demonstration.html

You can blame Matt for this clip.

Okay, I was wrong. I guess I can accept that it was really shot with an EX1, but I don't think the camera was operating normally. Even though Matt seems to have tried to make it look that bad just to prove a point, I still find hard to believe that a properly working EX1 could be made to do it. There's something else going on with that footage. In my opinion, anyone who thinks that clip should have any influence on their decision of when/where/how to use an EX1 is making a mistake. I will gladly use my EX1 in any shooting situation.

Oh Dave, don't worry, I wasn't faulting you for linking to the clip. I hope I didn't give that impression.

I WAS a bit worried when you called "BS" on my post. I was all set to suggest that you switch to decaf!! No worries, buddy.

BS on the clip, not on the post. I knew the clip wasn't yours.

Here you go, Doug:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/125860-rolling-shutter-vibration-demonstration.html

You can blame Matt for this clip.

To me this looks as a result of microvibrations (the worst to show ass biting rolling shutter) from the engine and a combination of a tripod, tele end and software stabilization in post production.

It also has the shutter set to 1/500th which will dramatically increase the amount of skew over more normal shutter speeds.

The example I posted was shot entirely with an EX1 with the stabilizer "on".

Keep in mind that these were all handheld on boats that ran on open water at speeds of 15 knots or more. No JelloVision. 1/60 or 1/100 shutter speeds. The only reason for a faster shutter speed is that it improves my chances to stabilize the shot in post-production.

For JelloVision to happen, the camera has to actually vibrate. It has to shift from left to right and back again faster than the CMOS chip is scanned. If it doesn't shift that fast, vertical lines won't skew enough to be noticed.

And at that point, the shot is generally unusable even if it were shot on a CCD.