See this thread for more : http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/489821-sony-hdr-td10-3d-camcorder-announced-ces.html

The inter-axial is 31mm. They don't expect anyone to edit it, according to the rep.

Not to be outdone:
JVC Full HD 3D Consumer Camcorder Is World?s First | JVC Consumer Press Releases (http://newsroom.jvc.com/2011/01/jvc-full-hd-3d-consumer-camcorder-is-world%E2%80%99s-first/)

N.A. Withdrawn by P.H.

The JVC camera seems to shoot in 1080x60i whereas the Sony is doing 1080x60p. I would think that with 3D the interlacing of image capture could contribute to depth problems for objects that are moving so the progressive scan should be superior. Of course neither of these cameras are going to produce the 3D that this group expects in general but at $1500 for the Sony it sure seems like a great way into this format for me.

I think the Sony sounds great as a second camera. I film a lot of weddings and aim to offer 3D weddings this year, so as a pickup camera it makes much more sense than two Canon HV40's side by side.

I have put my Panasonic SDT-750 up o Ebay. Whilst its a great 2D camera for the money, the 3D was not great, as it's not true HD, the light loss horrific and no zoom!

I don't want to get into the i/p conversation, but I don't agree that interlacing somehow messes up the 3D, and I know first hand. Also, according to Sony rep, they store the video in MVC internal packing and only plan to output frame packed pixels (HDMI 1.4). Think of it as 3D Blu-ray player in playback mode. No USB, no directly editable video formats, like AVCHD, MPEG-2/4, side-by-side, dual stream, etc. They designed it for people who will take the video, plug the camcorder into their TV and play the captured video back as is. Knowing the hoops I have to jump in order to edit 3D properly, that maybe the right decision for "people" 3D camcorder. There will be enough headaches even this way. They will add a convergence adjustment on the final product, the prototype didn't have any. That means they'll have to do keystone correction internally. The rep said that they'll come up with 3D camcorder capable of outputting editable video later. That would not do for me. I cannot even post this without editing it 3 times.

The JVC camera seems to shoot in 1080x60i whereas the Sony is doing 1080x60p.

It's been posted on another thread and forum that the Sony is recording 2D in 1080 24/60P and unfortunately 3D in 1080 60i interlaced. I hope that's wrong.

Always some Baloney with Sony.

Speaking of Sony announcements, I saw a Sony 3D camera at the CES 2011 which I never saw before. It can be seen here: YouTube - yt3d: 3D Camcorders @ CES 2011 - Side-by-Side, Cross-Eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3MIY6dgrQ0) , at about 7:26. Is anyone familiar with it? There was no marking on it.

It's been posted on another thread and forum that the Sony is recording 2D in 1080 24/60P and unfortunately 3D in 1080 60i interlaced. I hope that's wrong.

Always some Baloney with Sony.

You're correct that it is 1080i not 1080p, I must have read the specs too quickly the first time. Still seems pretty good and at 60i the interlace vs progressive is probably a moot point as Pavel has suggested. The output being limited to "•Video Signal : 3D HD: HDTV 1080/60i; HD: HDTV 1080/60p, 24p, 60i; STD: NTSC color, EIA standards", is certainly a problem for this group but for an amateur lilke myself it might be OK. It appears to use Memory stick and SDHC, I wonder if that is stored in the MVC format?

certainly a problem for this group but for an amateur lilke myself

But, Steve, you're a member of this group! ;)

The camcorder stores the data in MVC (bitmap+depthmap) packing and outputs it in HDMI 1.4a, which is 24p stream, which "this group" should like, unfortunately, it is "frame packed". I am not sure how to separate this into two separate, parallel HDMI (convertable to SDI) 24p streams, which should be desirable. Some hardware interface performing this function is possible, I just don't think it exists at this moment. Of course for serious amateurs this would be too expensive and complex. I think this camcorder is for wealthy people requiring an "instamatic" camcorder. The JVC GZ-TD1 is interesting as well, because they keep talking about the "popolar" sid-by-side output for 3D, which could mean that they'll not even have the frame-packed output of the Sony....

Never heard of bitmap plus depth map MVC are you sure about this? I would have thought it would be a normal MVC frame pack as per the BluRay 3D specs. In which case it should be pretty easy to extract the two streams as it's just a multiplex of the two full streams. AVIsynth with MVC decoder can de-mux a 3D bluray I believe.

I probably said it too popularly, but I called "depth" was trying to say more simply that basically MVC is trying to minimize the amount of bits that need to be stored or transmitted, so they do not store two fully independent frames, but use reference and the compressed predicted differences in both time and space. These cannot be directly used by editors. That is shown somewhat more clearly here: INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR STANDARDIZATION (http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/technologies/mpeg-4/mp04-mvc/index.htm) . The result is saving of both storage space or potential transmission bandwidth (which of course is not the issue inside player or camcorder, but the storage space is). It is described in an extension of the h.264/AVC standard (Annex H), and it is in some aspects similar to AVC algorithms. The main point is that there aren't two full frames stored. It is not standard Blu-ray frame pack, until after it is decoded (decompressed), where after further formatting, it is sent as frame packed (HDMI 1.4a) stream, which consists of fully decoded L/R serially multiplexed and re-framed streams, packed into nearly standard video frame timing. This decompressed combined stream can be separated (the display devices are doing it), but as I said I am not aware about any commercially available interface device doing it right now, (with the exception of circuits and software embedded into displays and TVs) so that such stream(s) can be edited. The editors generally, internally deal with flavors of MJPEG compressions of the two separate streams, either done on the fly, or pre-processed, because the computer CPUs aren't usually powerful enough to do it so that editing can search randomly and play smoothly. That is why they sometimes use H/W assistance from the display H/W, which often uses the required algorithms implemented in H/W for other tasks. So what I should have said was that they are storing compressed prediction, backward prediction and correction between the two frames and in time as well, in a single stream, which to me sounded too complicated, so I called it "depth" information. The compression algorithms are trying to take advantage of the similarities of the two views to highly compress the frames. The stream outside the Blu-ray consists of decompressed pixels for both views in a single stream.
I don't think that the full solution, camera to editor to storage to display right now very economical to implement and support for consumer grade devices, and I don't think that it is easy. I don't think that it is possible to ask a consumer to go through all these professional "work flows". That requires too much technical knowledge. Turn key, simple to understand and support solution must be provided for that audience. That is why I think Sony is not implementing it on the first generation of the 3D consumer grade camcorders, and why Fuji never officially supported editing of the W1/W3 streams.
MVC is not just simple multiplex of the two streams, but the HDMI 1.4a decoded output is. (I am sorry, I am running into my English language limitations and talking too much here.

Thank you for the in depth solution of how a hardware based playback system would work. The bottom line though is that the files saved by the camera contain enough data to reconstruct the 2 discreet left/right video streams. So it should be possible to create a software decoder that can unpack the data from the files and extract the two L/R clips. That decoder, like any other codec could be transparent to user, so the workflow need not be any more complicated than existing workflows, assuming you don't want to manipulate the 3D itself.

Absolutely. The only reason I mentioned the MVC was if someone wanted to remove the flash memory and read and use it. If they were to capture the HDMI, that the video is frame packed pixels and can be processed as you describe. Sorry for the messy and overly lengthy attempt of explanation.

But that is my point. If you took out the SD card and read the file with suitable software, the MVC file will contain enough data to re-create two full L/R streams of 1920x1080 video. It is just data, however you look at it. So it should be perfectly feasible to write an algorithm to extract the data from the file and do whatever is needed to decode the streams. Written correctly this codec should be transparent to the end user just as any other codec is, so editing need not be any more complicated than it is for 2D. Having a single multiplexed file as opposed to two separate files, for an end user or consumer will be easier to manage and understand.

The question is whether someone will write the decoder. If the demand is there, I'm sure someone will do it.

Having a single multiplexed file as opposed to two separate files, for an end user or consumer will be easier to manage and understand.

Not only that. Such a file can be usually compressed much better (subtracting the right view from the left channel should produce a stream that compresses better than compressing the right view on its own merits). This saves space on the media cards as well as hard disks.

I'm quite interested in this discussion. According to the response in this thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stereoscopic-production-delivery/490108-how-do-sony-jvc-panasonic-file-formats-relate-iso-standard.html

JVC and Panasonic are using side by side frames while Sony is using interleaved. And, both are covered by the relevant ISO 3D standard. As I recall, Panasonic's frames are anamorphic while JVC claims full 1080 frames. All the usual inter and intra-frame compression techniques are available in each technique. I think the NLE CODEC should be able to hide all of it and present any of them on a timeline in a perfectly rational manner.

The JVC can record two separate full frame L/R streams as well as side by side and other modes according to JVC's press release. What comes out of the HDMI connection is a little less clear.

Removed by Author.

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The question is whether someone will write the decoder. If the demand is there, I'm sure someone will do it.

Methods and programs to extract and recover the right eye stream from a MVC file set are available and discussed in various forums like biohemmet.se or doom9.org.

Absolutely. The algorithms are available, They must be for MVC to become a standard. Most major companies and Universities dealing with 3D have the codecs in S/W and H/W. The industry direction is obvious. I wasn't talking about highly technical people. I was talking about the people for whom these products are meant - the general public. Almost anything can be reverse-engineered and work-arounds can be designed. Some elegant, other not so much, all very error prone. If general public starts doing that, they'll have worse impression of 3D than they are already getting. Too many things can make 3D an unpleasant experience. Actually from what I saw so far, even many professional works are problematic. I think that 3D at this time can be barely acceptably done by the pro's and highly technical hobbyists. I am afraid that badly done amateur 3D can cause unpleasant experience and negative attitude towards 3D to a general user. It should be left to the pro's for a while longer. When we went from B/W to color and from SD to HD, the only issues were cost and lack of content, performance was just plus. It is not at all the case with 3D.

BTW, the recently announced JVC consumer camcorder stores MVC compressed video as well. For 3D camcorders MVC will replace AVC and HDMI 1.4a will replace HDMI 1.3, editors will be updated to ingest MVC and life goes on.

I think that 3D at this time can be barely acceptably done by the pro's and highly technical hobbyists. I am afraid that badly done amateur 3D can cause unpleasant experience and negative attitude towards 3D to a general user. It should be left to the pro's for a while longer. When we went from B/W to color and from SD to HD, the only issues were cost and lack of content, performance was just plus. It is not at all the case with 3D.

I couldn't disagree more. Those that know what they are doing are producing extremely good S3D productions that have completely re-vitalised the movie industry. Not every film is good, but the same happened in the early days of colour, there were many badly done colour films and in the early days of HD focus was often questionable to say the least. It's just that we have forgotten many of the issues and teething troubles that new technologies present.

Of course ANY badly done video, whether its a wobbly home video or poor 3D effort will put people off, but despite the shocking quality of many 2D home videos, camcorders still sell in their millions. Even my wife likes playing with my Fuji W3. These point and shoot 3D camcorders are exactly what the market needs. Don't forget that most home movies will only ever be seen on smallish home screens, where disparity errors etc are far less of a problem than in a movie theater. The simple "wow" factor of 3D home movies will impress more than it will put off IMHO.

Right now 3D's biggest problem is lack of content, just as in the early days of HD. How can we expect people to fork out large sums of money on expensive new 3D TV's when there is almost nothing to watch? A hand full of 3D movies on BluRay is not enough. There needs to be a continuous stream of new and imaginative content before 3D TV sales will really take off.

For 3D camcorders MVC will replace AVC and HDMI 1.4a will replace HDMI 1.3, editors will be updated to ingest MVC and life goes on.

MVC is a subset of AVCHD, so AVCHD is not being replaced, just used in a different way.


As I said in my first post in this thread MVC decoder can already de-mux the 3D stream, while this isn't perhaps a consumer workflow, it's not particularly hard to do. HDV was almost impossible to edit when it first appeared with only one very hard to use piece of software available that could edit the native files. Within a year there were a dozen plugins and after 2 years it was built in to most edit packages, even the low end bundled consumer ones. MVC will most likely be the same. It just needs a little time to mature.

I have an HDR-TD10 in hand. I have to wonder why this thing records 3D in 1080 60i. The HDMI 1.4a spec does not mandate 1080 60i and I'm yet to find a 3DTV that can support it in frame-packed (full res) mode.
Not even sure a Bravia 3D set can display 1080 60i frame-packed.

Any ideas??

the MVC video recorded by the TD10 can perfectly be translated to left/right separate file using
the MVC converter from 3DTV.AT.
it will give you 2 full HD avi file (i tested it with cineform Neo codec as output).
So there is absolutely no problem to shoot/edit with this camera.
You can also easily burn the MVC back to blu-ray with VEGA ver 10d.

Please also note the the TD10 just has a "pro" sister that record 3D in 24p also.
unfortunately the pro version cost twice the price.
hope a firmware upde would apply to the TD10 for getting 24p.

I have to wonder why this thing records 3D in 1080 60i. The HDMI 1.4a spec does not mandate 1080 60i and I'm yet to find a 3DTV that can support it in frame-packed (full res) mode.
Not even sure a Bravia 3D set can display 1080 60i frame-packed.

Welcome to the world of Sony. At times, I wonder if even they know why they do some of these things.

I suppose one could crack the MVC into L & R 1080 60i AVCHD streams, then de-interlace / interpolate into 720 60P. I'm guessing consumers will wind up playing side-side (half res) from the camera to their HDMI 1.4a compliant 3DTVs. I'm really not sure about the utility of this camera.

Does anyone happen to know if Bravia 3D TVs support the (un-mandated) HDMI 1080 60i frame-packed output from the camera?

the MVC video recorded by the TD10 can perfectly be translated to left/right separate file using
the MVC converter from 3DTV.AT.
it will give you 2 full HD avi file (i tested it with cineform Neo codec as output).
So there is absolutely no problem to shoot/edit with this camera.
You can also easily burn the MVC back to blu-ray with VEGA ver 10d.

HOW do you get 1080 60i back in to a 1080 24p timeline - which is the ONLY 1080 3D format supported in the 3D Blu-ray specifications and the HDMI 1.4a specifications?

I think the Sony sounds great as a second camera. I film a lot of weddings and aim to offer 3D weddings this year, so as a pickup camera it makes much more sense than two Canon HV40's side by side.

I have put my Panasonic SDT-750 up o Ebay. Whilst its a great 2D camera for the money, the 3D was not great, as it's not true HD, the light loss horrific and no zoom!

Hi,

I have already started doing this (Wed3D.net) and the main problem that you will face is getting this onto a watchable bluray, with menu in full HD. As has been discussed elsewhere you cannot get full HD 3D blu rays without some very expensive software and licensing (see here http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stereoscopic-production-delivery/490451-3d-blu-ray.html for more info) The easiest way is side by side and, if you want to, anaglyph. I should think you can 'cheat' by saving the film as 3820x1080 so when the tv splits the stream in half the resoloution is still 1920x1080. Anyone tried this? I have with anaglyph but not SBS.

Camera looks good, on consumer level though, but i agree with an earlier post, the small interocular distance may create headaches and even put people off.

It turns out that Bravia 3DTVs DO support frame packed (full resolution) 1080 60i. Tried it directly out of my HDR-TD10 at a local BestBuy. Looks amazing with fast action. Much better than the mandatory 1080 24P mode. Too bad 1080 60i (and 60P for that matter) weren't mandatory in HDMI 1.4a and aren't in the 3D Blu-ray spec!

So... all you HDR-TD10 owners out there... if you have a Sony Bravia 3DTV, you can view your shots directly from the camera in full 3D high-def. Other branded 3DTV owners may to have to settle for side-side.

Seems to be a LOT of this kind of problem going around. JVC 3D camcorder is 1080 60i as well. GoPro Hero 3D is 1080 30P. Also not supported by most (if not all) 3DTVs. At least the GoPro's can do 720 60P, which IS a mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3D format. Also - the GoPro can be set to 25P in PAL mode - which can be retimed to 24P w/o much hassle.

Update: Panasonic 3DTVs support 1080 60i as well.