Please help me to decide which editor to use FCP 7 OR Premiere Pro CS5. I own Adobe Production Premium which contains Premiere Pro CS5 but have never used it or FCP 7 so I am starting fresh with learning. I am not afraid of the "learning curve" or "complexity" of a new program since I am very "software" competent at learning. I am willing to buy FCP 7 so money is not a deciding factor here.

I will use my MacBook Pro 17" iCore 5 bought Fall 2010 and will be purchasing a Panasonic AG-HMC40 (HD camera). I will be making movie shorts and documentaries at first as a hobby then later to freelance and possibly weddings. I am working alone for now and will not need to share editing files/work with others.

In short, I want to learn and use a product that has the ability to give me professional "Hollywood" style "features".

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Gregory

Both suites can give you professional results.

I used Premiere until Pro 2.0, so it's been a while. I changed to FCS and I liked that better. The suite in 2007 was very strong, when Apple just added Color.

But Premiere made a lot of workflow enchancements, and it would be working faster with RED footage (and many other footage) than FCP. If I'm not mistaken it's better multicore-optimized than FCP at this point. FCP is one of the oldest programmes in the whole suite, and is in need of a rework under the engine, but rumors have it that that is exactly where Apple is working on.
I know FCP has a better reputation in stability then Premiere. When I worked with Premiere, this was definately the case, but I don't know how it is now with CS5.

There is probably an FCP-update coming in early 2011, and it will be a bit waiting at this point how big that update is, and where it places FCP in a comparison with the other NLE's.

In this instance, as you own Premiere Pro already, it makes sense to use that as your NLE. There is no innate advantage the current version of Final Cut has over Premiere Pro except maybe a larger install base, and even with that the case they are very similar tool sets anyway - they are certainly similar enough that any advantage you get in learning Final Cut Pro will not be particularly advantageous in between now and April when a new version is hoped to come out.

It's also quite likely that the next version of FCP will have significant revisions, quite possibly both in terms of how projects are set up as well as infrastructure - as such learning the next version of FCP will also probably have a bit of a learning curve/workflow change for even current very advanced users, so you gain even less by going with final cut in the meantime.

There are exceptions -are you likely to collaborate with other FCP users, are you wanting to use Color, do you want access to Prores encoding. Those are the three reasons I could say that are very good reasons to shift to FCP, and as you'll probably also get a decent price on an upgrade if you buy soon and the update in April the cost hit probably won't be too massive. But if you buy now, and can't afford the update in April, you'll be caught with old software for a lot longer than is necessary or worthwhile, so you should factor in the likelihood of paying for an upgrade soon as well as the cost of the software now in your decision making.

Basically - between now and the next 6 months what volume of editing are you going to be doing, what volume of grading in a dedicated grading suite software environment like Color could you see yourself doing, and who are you going to want to collaborate with - the answer to these questions should determine the value of getting into FCP now for you, compared to waiting until any new version announcements that hopefully will happen in the next six months.

Premiere pro's advantages are pretty significant with some types of cameras as well, especially if you have a well spec'd machine and aren't in a collaborative environment where you need to edit on a variety of differently spec'd machines - so if you are working with footage that can be cuda accelerated and have a cuda capable graphics card you have a pretty compelling reason to stick with Premiere Pro as your NLE.

A positive for adobe, you can edit most media natively. Therefore, you save time and significant hard drive space.

A positive for FCP, in my experience it seems to be more stable.

There are many advantages with FCP. Premiere sounds great on paper, but there´s a ton of little issues that will make you pull your hair. CS5 is in way better shape than CS3 or CS4 have ever been, but those issues are still present.

-no intermediate codec. It´s awesome CS5 can edit natively, but it comes with a price: FCP workflows with proper transcoding to ProRes are smoother, safer and more stable.

-a slew of tiny stupid limitations. For example, no way to modify sequence preset after you create them. No simple way of transferring clip properties between clips. No preview on HDV capturing. Severely limited keyboard customization, compared to FCP. CUmbersome trim editing.

-no dual system audio (crucial for DSLR workflows). You can´t merge Video from one clip with audio from another clip into a single clip and comfortably edit from there. No way, no how.

I could go on. It´s exactly like comparing Windows with Mac OS X. Windows does get the job done, but Mac is easier on the nerves.

Since you have CS5 and it sounds like no editing experience at all (??). Just start shooting and editing with what you've got. The ability to do creative editing is far more important than the technology that you edit on.

Getting to know CS5 would be advantageous even if you switched at a latter date, as many FCS users use AE.

Yes, Chris is right. Neither of the tools will make you a good editor. If you already have Premiere, by all means use Premiere. Its just based on longtime experience, FCP is a more mature tool.

Thanks Juri for your previous post, as I haven't heard so much about the downsides of CS5, mostly I hear about the benefits.

Craig, Where did you hear about a possible April FCS?

Well Gregory and Chris, we always recommend try before you buy. I don't know about FCP since I'm not a Mac guy, but most NLEs today have free trials so you can see if you like the interface and workflow.

We cannot allow this to turn into a personal arguement, but I have to say that Jiri is among a small group of folks posting here on DVinfo who have made only negatively slanted comments about CS5, some incorrect, since even before it was released. Still there's no clear indication that he has actually used the current release of the software. (eg, yes you can very easily LINK a video clip and any audio track, or multiple audio tracks, and move them around the timeline as a single entity; I do it all the time)

No software has every possible feature that all people want it to have; no software is entirely bug-free. To say FCP is "more mature" than CS5 is entirely subjective and not warranted or useful. Hey, use whatever you're more comfortable with, but I'm using CS5 on multiple streams of varied HD sources...and am not pulling my hair out. Try 'em both.

I want to thank each of your replies. I learned a little something from each.

G

Please help me to decide which editor to use Avid MC5 OR Premiere Pro CS5. I own Adobe Production Premium which contains Premiere Pro CS5 but have never used it or AVID so I am starting fresh with learning. I am not afraid of the "learning curve" or "complexity" of a new program since I am very "software" competent at learning.

I will use my MacBook Pro 17" iCore 5 bought Fall 2010 and will be purchasing a Panasonic AG-HMC40 (HD camera). I will be making movie shorts and documentaries at first as a hobby then later to freelance and possibly weddings. I am working alone for now and will not need to share editing files/work with others.

In short, I want to learn and use a product that has the ability to give me professional "Hollywood" style "features/look."

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Gregory

CS5 will be cheaper and more flexible. I'd recommend that route.

I've merged the new "Avid or CS5?" thread with the existing "FCP or CS5?" thread and moved the consolidated thread to this Open DV Discussion forum so what is essentially the same question isn't cross-posted in multiple NLE forums.

My advice is the same: you've got CS5 so you're all set to give that a try. You can download trials of any other NLE you're interested in and give it a go.

Well, Pete, linking and merging are two different concepts. With linking (which is of course supported in FCP too), you only link two clips on the timeline - meaning it is not a single clip, you cannot put in in a bin, match frame or create a subclip. With merging, you effectively create a new clip, which can be used in a way any other "real" media clip can be used. And fear not, I've used CS5 for about half a year before making the full switch to FCP. And CS2 (PPro 7), CS3 and CS4 before that. I know Premiere inside out.

Chris, the reason you haven't heard that much about the downsides of CS5 is that people tend to stick to what they know and thus are more likely to downplay the issues. Without wanting to insult anyone, there's also a lot of inexperienced people who don't know advanced EDITING features they might wnat to use and need. Realtime playback isn't everything.

...the reason you haven't heard that much about the downsides of CS5 is that people tend to stick to what they know and thus are more likely to downplay the issues.Definitely true of all the NLEs since that fits with human nature -- we gravitate to what we like. And as I said earlier, NONE of them has every feature everyone would want, but appeal in a different way to different people.

Generally once we're invested in, and become very familiar with, a particular NLE most folks aren't going to jump ship and go learn a new NLE unless we feel pretty strongly. Jiri's happy using FCP so that's what he's gone back to. I've used every version of Premiere since v5.0 (late 1990's) and it's what I'm comfortable with. Adobe has had their clunkers in the past and I did consider abandoning ship a couple times, but with CS5 I'm very happy with the entire well-integrated Adobe suite. I have no reason to switch NLEs, but I also have no reason to diss FCP or Vegas, or Edius, or Avid, or anyone else I failed to mention, either.

I don't miss the merge function he describes because PPro makes superb use of nested sequences; I can put any simple or complex collection of video / audio / stills / synthetics / dynamic link clips / other sequences in a sequence that lives in a Project Panel bin and treat it just like a clip. I can even use the Match Frame feature that PPro does have to find a frame in the source clip or reveal it in a source sequence when nesting. Not being familiar with FCP, maybe I'm unaware that there's something nice about merged clips as opposed to the power of a nested sequence but it seems more a matter of different ways of doing similar task.

All this is again to say that any of these NLEs are "mature" and "which is better" tends to be a personal preference more than which one is "better." So again, to Gregory, since you already own CS5 it is easy to try that, but I'd encourage you to download the free trials of other NLEs and play around with them.

Good luck!

Good Morning,

I have used most video editing softwares, Taught computers sense the first apple; If I have learned anything it is that all software has its problems and none do it all and do it well!!!

It is for this reason that I always have two working editors on my work station. I still have adobe 1.5 on my shelf but have found much more comfort in Vegas pro and Edius 5.0.

A good editor can do great work on anything, even windows movie maker!

Recommend, I would stay with what you know already, get really competant, and then if you need it to do other things make a move then!!!

Many good thoughts here.

Here's my take.

If your career vision is just you and the machine editing, then there is NO wrong choice. Any path - even changing paths - presents little or minor penalties. So use what you like.

If, however, you ever aspire to collaborating or working with others - it IS useful to understand the market dynamics behind software choices.

The farther up the chain you go in becoming competent to operate in the professional editing world, you'll find most editing platforms falling away in favor of Avid and/or FCP.

That's not a blessing nor a curse, nor even a comment on their relative merits. Just a statement of fact. In most broadcast journalism programs and upper end editing training, AVID and FCP are the tools used and taught.

Again, if it's YOUR seat, you're free to enjoy the tangible positives that CS5 thru Edius et al uses to DELIGHT their base. And there's no reason to believe that with the constant improvement, Premier Pro or Vegas won't hit on some "killer feature" in the future that will draw more editors in their direction. But for now, the MARKET has established that knowing either AVID or FCP (of better yet, BOTH) will let you sit down in virtually any business oriented edit suite on the planet and go to work.

Maybe time will change this. Maybe not.

For what it's worth.

For the simple fact that Photoshop, Illustrator and my favorite, After Effects are all integrated extremely well with Premiere Pro, I could not see myself using any other editing program. For DVD authoring, Encore has no great competition from Avid and FCS especially seeing as Avid's DVD program is Windows only. Plus, Encore is very well integrated with Premiere via Dynamic Link.

Start learning the integration between After Effects and Premiere Pro (called Dynamic Link) and you will see what I am talking about.

Look in the Adobe section to see if you can enable CUDA acceleration with your Macbook Pro. I remember seeing a special trick to enable CUDA with the 512MB video cards on the newer MBP's.

Furthermore, once you start making a living with video, you will realize that wasting money on a 2nd NLE package would be better spent on video production hardware or better/faster computer hardware. $1000 can get you a very nice NEC 24" LCD and i1 calibrator in order to get very accurate color. This brings up a major difference between FCP and Premiere: you can USE the Program window in Premiere and accurately see what your video looks like whereas FCP requires an external I/O box (Apple has stated that you cannot use FCP's canvas for an accurate representation of your video).

Read this article: ProVideo Coalition.com: TecnoTur by Allan Tépper (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/does_premiere_cs5_achieve_the_impossible_dream_for_critical_evaluation_moni/)

As a newbie, FCP, Quicktime and their gamma shift issues will cause you to tear your hair out.

Btw, I just tested something tonight, and discovered that I can get a 10bit output of After Effects through Premiere Pro by dynamic linking an AE comp in Premiere. This is so sweet! (I have a Quadro connected via Displayport to an Eizo CG243W, a 10bit LCD and Premiere is capable of displaying 10bit - something FCP cannot do)

PS I have an HP Z800 comparable to the dual 6 core Mac Pro and Adobe CS5 has been utterly rock-solid.

Steve,

You were doing SO WELL until the final few paragraphs of your post.

Then, for some reason, you had to resort to "other platform bashing." Please don't do this.

I understand that one way to make ourselves "feel better" about our own choices is to criticize those of others. But I believe it's more sensible, and more instructive, to simply promote what we've experienced to be valuable - and leave things there. (Particularly in such a fast moving area as software design, where, for example, a flaw might exist, be corrected, and people still cling to the idea that it's still relevant LONG after the issue has been addressed.)

The 2 Million++ registered FCP seat users on the planet, including those working in features, network television, and industry are NOT all idiots who blindly overlook utility diminishing aspects of our tools just so we can say "I use Brand X" to edit.

You clearly enjoy using Premier and the CS5 suite. That's great. But please leave the "testimonials" - confined to what you have current and on-going experience with. In essence, please don't attempt to make YOUR choice seem superior to mine - or belittle my lack of "understanding" of my systems flaws.

Essentially, I won't trash YOUR software of choice if you don't trash mine. OK?

This would have been water off my back - however, I've come to realize how many newbies read these posts and take what they read here as a critical source of decision making. And that puts pressure on ALL of us, to be as careful as possible in what we claim.

Thanks for listening.

Hi Bill,

I don't see any comment where I was 'bashing' FCP. I was simply stating some rather important facts for a newbie such as gamma shift issues, no 10bit output and the canvas cannot be used for accurate color.

If he already had FCS 3 and was considering Adobe or Avid, I would tell him to stick with FCS and spend the money elsewhere. But because he already has CS5, I was trying to drive the point that he should not waste his money on another NLE package when the money can be better spent to improve his actual productions with more/better hardware.

I apologize if it seems I was trying to bash FCP. That was not my intent. I understand where you are coming from because I can't stand people trying to bash one NLE over another.

But again, I reiterate that none of my comments were in the 'bashing' realm.

Steve, for 10 bit color to be relevant for monitoring on either platform in a practical environment, you need a hardware card feeding a monitor that is broadcast compliant. In saying that Final cut does do 10bit YUV processing, and you can certainly monitor in 10 bit out of a kona card in Final Cut, I do it every day.

So, maybe not bashing, but not correct statements either. Also, FCS offers Color, which is much better at dedicated color correction than Premiere or After Effects, and in my opinion remains the most compelling tool that differentiates FCS . Much like After Effects is the compelling tool for video in Premiere offerings.

Whether you need both, one or the other,depends entirely on whether you want to own the most effective tools for your workflow, get freelance work as a dedicated offline editor in a partiular environment, or simply familiarise yourself with the many varied facets of media production.

You cant state that FCP could creates issues for newbies because of issues with Quicktime gamma issues, when quicktime is a heavily used deliverable and transport throughout all broadcast production. It, unfortunately, creates issues for EVERYBODY, on all platforms and all NLEs.

Accepted.

I'll just note that while "gamma shift issues" was a much discussed factor before the latest Quicktime rev - I haven't heard anyone complain about it much since. And no project nor client I've delivered finished work to has complained to me EVER about my video having "image problems" even tho it's been seen by some VERY sophisticated eyes. So it's a complete non-issue for me - and I suspect for the vast majority of working FCP editors today.

As to 10 bit output, while important to keying and some forms of motion graphics work, I'm starting to be convinced that raster density is actually MORE important than bit depth in most conditions. My keying experiments with DSLR footage is MUCH more satisfying than the time I spent trying to fight the difference between keying 4:1:1, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 or even 4:4:4 at a "video raster" - so I suspect that as raster density improves in the next generation of cameras - this concern for 10bit processing might just fall aside. Either that or we'll get BOTH - which would be nice.

Finally, I'm not sure ANYTHING will ever convince me that a monitor system based around LCD technology will EVER have the necessary color response to make me trust it as a color source.

Well, let me amend that. For graphics work, where colors are computer generated - fine.

But I work largely in field produced video where it's significantly more common for screen images to be captured under real-world (real light) conditions. And EVERY SINGLE non-tube monitor I've ever seen has revealed unacceptable issues in reproducing real world color-temperature related information. And unfortunately, if I can't SEE a problem on the monitor, I can't do anything in the field to FIX it. And that makes me grumpy.

So, I understand why you love your software. But I suspect that's at least partially because your work standards - while every bit as valid as mine - are simply not the SAME as mine. And that means neither of us has the qualifications to judge what is a superior method for the other. Precisely what I was originally trying to point out.

The danger is always any attitude that presumes that everyone should do things like *I* do - which is ALWAYS, IMO, a suspect position.

Take care.

...I suspect that's at least partially because your work standards - while every bit as valid as mine - are simply not the SAME as mine...Absolutely. I think all of us who have been trying to be helpful to the OP in this thread are at least a little guilty here of trying, well, maybe TOO hard.

I'd suppose it doesn't particularly help Gregory -- as he is about to take his first step into video editing as a solo hobbiest -- for us to argue and pontificate the nuances of merging vs linking vs nesting clips, nor how many installed seats have been claimed for a piece of software, nor 10 bit color will pass through from AE to PPro via Dynamic link (although I appreciated hearing that...I'm considering trying out a 10 bit monitor on CS5 since I need to replace a failed monitor anyway).

I still think the same ol' advice we always give to this kind of question is the best advice: download the trials and play around with them. If one of the others really grabs him, great. If not, he's already got CS5.

I'd kind of hoped when this thread slowed down a couple days ago it would go dormant. I think I'll elect to close it at least for now, since it seems more rancorous than helpful to the OP.