Astronomy photographers have to use special focusing screens in their SLR cameras that have higher light transmission and less grain so they can see stars at night. That said, I point you to:

Nikon "D" Screen for F3 Cameras
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart&A=details&Q=&sku=37515&is=REG


It is highly recommended by astrophotographers as a good, no-grain focusing screen for low-light conditions. However, it does not have a convex lens to redistribute the light as normal focusing screens do, so there should be vignetting, although they report it is minimal and does not really show up. I'm ordering it and am going to try it out as a possible GG alternative.

This is mentioned on page 3 of "Just Facts: Another Guide to Digital Filmaking" (on building an adapter) by those who made Marla the Movie:

http://www.marlathemovie.com/bonus/justfacts.pdf

I feel belittled. ;) Edit: Oh I see what you mean. No, I wasn't saying I came up with the idea of using a focusing screen, I'm just saying I found a particular one without grain or light loss. Edit: I'm feeling stupid now. So they do mention the D screen. Well, it looks like it works. I wish this site had a clearer thread that just lays down the summary of what works and what doesn't. This whole board is a bit ambiguous.

You shouldn't feel stupid. In fact, considering that you came up with it on your own, it just shows that you're thinking about things and are on the right track. In addition to this site, you can get info here (an incomplete list):

http://www.moorefilms.com/aldu35.htm

http://www.enormousapparatus.com/35adapter.htm

http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dof/index.htm

http://www.sinedie.org/mini35/index.php

http://www.sinedie.org/mini35/index.php?page=kit

http://ideaspora.net/oldskool/alain35-1.html

http://www.blindcat.de/index.php?page=dv35genglish&title=DV35g%20-20A%2035mm%20Adapter&parent=dv35g

http://www.paddlefilms.com/35mmadapters.htm

http://www.edwardflinch.com/images/mini35.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~wauhkies/adapter/index.html

http://www.marlathemovie.com/bonus/justfacts.pdf

Please, if you're going to link to my tutorial, link to the index page which contains a lot of updated info:

http://ideaspora.net/oldskool/

Thanks.

- jim

>>"Please, if you're going to link to my tutorial, link to the index page which contains a lot of updated info:"

Will do. I was copying these from my old links that still appeared to work... I haven't looked at them in a while. Thanks. :-)

Hi all,
There must be reasons why people are not using Nikon D screen or Beattie intenscreen. I heard beattie had grain visible. Is grain visible in Nikon D screen too? I have following questions on nikon D

1)Do I need to use a condensor or diopter with NIkon D
2)Is the image size obtained on NIkon D big enough to capture from GS400 camcorder
3)Why no one is using it? There must be lot of reasons
4)Does nikon D screen fit 52mm filter ring?
5)I know some folks like Oscar Spier have used it?could they please comment
6)Is there vignetting?

Steev Dinkins uses a Beattie, or at least did, and I didn't mind the grain in his shots. I do mind paying $150 for something I'm going to have to take sandpaper to though to fit in a 55mm filter ring. One slip and you're out a whole lotta cash. I'm curious to see how the Nikon works out.

>>"Please, if you're going to link to my tutorial, link to the index page which contains a lot of updated info:"

Will do. I was copying these from my old links that still appeared to work... I haven't looked at them in a while. Thanks. :-)

Thanks, back :)

Sounds like a good piece. Why else would it be used to take pictures of stars, if it introduces grain to the picture?

Could you imagine someone trying to name a newly discovered star, only to find out... :)

Cool! I got the focusing screen today. If you're building the thorlabs tube, there's an easy way to mount it, because of it's ideal size:

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/nikonscreen1.jpg
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/nikonscreen2.jpg

Fits right in the spacer.

Careful with the glue! While shooting the pictures I accidentally got a swab of some on the screen. Luckily it came off with a few daubs of rubbing alcohol (hence the q-tip). Do you think it is neccessary to block out the empty spaces around the screen, or can I leave that?

I'll mount it and get some test pictures up here asap.

I'll mount it and get some test pictures up here asap.

Sounds good, please keep us updated.

I'm very curious to see the results. Could just be what I need...

Whew...what an adventure...

I went out to take some pictures, took some, came back to the computer and realized the GL2 had been in tape mode instead of card mode so no pictures were taken.

Went back outside, took more, came back in, and realized there were smudges on the focus screen from the rubbing alcohol. Not only that, I had been taking only standard quality, 640x480 images.

Went back out, retook 6 pictures out of the perhaps 40 I had taken previously.

A few notes:

Please ignore the vignetting and distortion. I'm using a very cheap canon SLR lens. I popped on a higher quality one and got no vignetting nor distortion, but both the focus ring and the aperture is broken on that one so I couldn't use it for testing.

Also, I'm looking into higher quality macros because these Asian ones are giving me too much chromatic abbheration and aren't really helpful. Once I get a higher quality SLR lens (its in the mail) I'll have a lot more usable space, and therefore won't have to zoom in as much, and therefore won't need as high a power macro. It's a domino effect of improvement.

Here's one I took before I had to retake them (notice the smudge):

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0073.JPG

Here are ones I took later. The grain is definately noticable, but--
Honestly, I'm about 80% satisfied with it. I could care less about grain that small. For my purposes, it's perfect. Plus, the focusing screen isn't just GG--It has a built-in PCXL on one side for even light distribution. Which brings me to: Was i installing it the right way? SLR lens hits GG, which then goes through PCXL, then goes to camera? or does the PCXL go between the GG and SLR lens?

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0074.JPG
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0075.JPG
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0076.JPG
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0077.JPG
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0078.JPG
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0079.JPG

I think the most important part to understand is that these are higher resolution than what native MiniDV captures, so you're not going to see that much anyway. I think a better understanding of what captured video will look like is the first, smaller picture, at 640x480.

I'll repost some pictures once I actually have a step ring to mount this thing to my camera (I was holding it up to the lens the whole time), plus the better SLR lens and a PCXL so I can compare the results with my optosigma GG.

As soon as my back stops hurting from hunching over (I'm 17...@#%*?!!) I'll go out and tape a moving pan, if it's not too dark by then.

EDIT: Well, it was too dark outside so I stayed inside and filmed this. Oddly enough it turned out great with no vignetting or distortion. Or grain (grain that's really obtrusive anyway)

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/jukedoftest.mov (5~MB)
Thank you Sorenson Squeeze, is all I have to say about that.
Extra points to whoever can name the tune first ;)

For those of you who don't want to download the video, here are some screen grabs. These are probably the most reliable example of what this is capable of because it's directly off the video.
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke1.bmp
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke2.bmp
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke3.bmp
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke4.bmp
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke5.bmp
http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke6.bmp

This was shot with the same stuff as those pictures...which proves that the GL2's focus is a very finicky thing. Sometimes you can focus up close...sometimes you can't. Weird.

Ben,
I am interested to see what the shots look like at night - can you give out some sample shots at night to see how well the focusing screen works?

Sure thing. It's getting too late to set it up again tonight so I'll be sure to do that tomorrow evening.

I was reading my f-stops during shooting, and when I took down the adapter it remained the same...leads me to believe it has great light transmission. The screen off B&H is the red dot version, meaning its brighter than a previous version. I'm very happy with the results ;)

I want to answer Madhav's questions now that I've used the focusing screen and closely looked at the results.

1)Do I need to use a condensor or diopter with NIkon D
No. Although I previously thought otherwise, the Nikon D Screen has a condensor as part of it.

2)Is the image size obtained on NIkon D big enough to capture from GS400 camcorder
Yes. It's just like using a 52mm ground glass screen except the ground glass that you don't use anyway simply isn't there--it's square to actually fit the frame of your picture.

3)Why no one is using it? There must be lot of reasons
I'm guessing people don't like the grain, but I personally can't even see it! Well, ok, I can see it if I freeze a frame and look at the out of focus areas, but panning and such seem to be unaffected, especially because of MiniDV's lower resolution. I'd like to put it out there now that this Nikon D Screen would NOT play nice at all with HD cameras.

4)Does nikon D screen fit 52mm filter ring?
You bet it does! Just glue it at the four corners, like this (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/nikonscreen2.jpg). It actually might just fit snugly depending on the filter ring you use.

5)I know some folks like Oscar Spier have used it?could they please comment
(In Oscar Spier imitation voice): It's fantastic. Thumbs up.

6)Is there vignetting?
Yes and no. If you don't use enough of a macro lens or too much macro/don't zoom in enough/don't position it correctly in the tube you'll get vignetting. Takes a bit of trial and error but once you get it, you get it. No need to move it around after that.

Hope that helped.

Hi Ben
Thank you so much for the clarification on my questions. A couple of questions
1)Are you using a red dot Nikon D screen,which is brighter than previous versions of Nikon D screens? This link talks about the red dot screen http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/I03/I0301/I0301.HTM
2)From your previous post,which of your adapter's pictures/video are with NIkon D screen
3)Which SLR lens are you using? Any idea on how Nikon 50mm 1.4 lens will work with Nikon D screen?

1)Are you using a red dot Nikon D screen,which is brighter than previous versions of Nikon D screens?

Yes, I am. It appears that the non-red dot screens were manufactured a longer time ago and all the new ones are red dot screens.

2)From your previous post,which of your adapter's pictures/video are with NIkon D screen

All of them. They're different because I fooled around with different distance settings and macro lenses.

3)Which SLR lens are you using? Any idea on how Nikon 50mm 1.4 lens will work with Nikon D screen?

I'm using a Canon FD lens, 50mm 1.8. I tried it with a higher quality Canon FD 1.4 lens and got even better results, but the focus and aperture were broken so I chose to post pictures using the fully functional lens. I'm guessing a Nikon 50mm 1.4 will have similarly good results.

Hi Ben,
Thanks for your post.
I looked at jukedoftest video.The video is very good interms of grain than the pictures,which are showing grain. I do not want to try lot of gg making(al oxide,wax,frosted glass paint) and PCLX or macro lens,that's why I was interseted in Nikon D which is cheaper than beattie screen. In fact, if we look at the posts, no one sofar was able to make an adaptor from existing parts bought from places like optosigma(I am not talking about home made GGs), whose footage is grainless or with out distortion. That's one of the reasons why I want to use Nikon D.Your post was very helpful.Please bear with me,my last questions are as below.

1)Are you using arrangement as below for your adaptor with out any of the parts like condensor,diopter,macro or some other part(I am not considering thorlabs tube as an adaptor part)?

SLR--NikonD--dvcam

2)The video is almost grainless and with out any distortion.What made the colors little pale in the video,is it the SLR lens you are using?

"The video is very good interms of grain than the pictures,which are showing grain."

The pictures are of higher resolution than regular minidv video, which means more detail and thus more grain. It's why I mentioned HD cameras would probably hate the Nikon screen, but for Minidv, it works perfectly.

1)Are you using arrangement as below for your adaptor with out any of the parts like condensor,diopter,macro or some other part(I am not considering thorlabs tube as an adaptor part)?

SLR--NikonD--dvcam

Yes, although I do use a 10+ Asian brand macro lens right smack up on the front of my GL2 so it can focus on the screen. Your needs may differ depending on the camera you have and it's ability to focus on things up close--you may not need a macro lens at all.

2)The video is almost grainless and with out any distortion.What made the colors little pale in the video,is it the SLR lens you are using?

Although I personally don't think the colors are that pale, it's probably the lens like you said. It's a $20 plastic cheapie. A better, higher quality metal Canon 1.4 50mm is in the mail. I'll test with that one too.

EDIT Ok, the colors are pretty darn pale. Just add some saturation in post and it's fine. I dont know why that is though...

I have to thank you very much for bringing the Nikon type D to my attention. I went ahead and put in an order for one today to replace my home made ground glass which doesn't handle low light well and has a tiny chip on it. As soon as I get it I'll post my results. Looks as good as the Beattie footage I've seen and a fraction of the cost. Thanks again.

I definately hope it works out for you as well as it's worked for me. As I'm probably going to keep with this method, I'm offering to sell my optosigma glass and the PCXL(once it comes, in about a week and half to two) as described in Mellor's tutorial on this site for $55, including shipping.

Anyone interested, please definately contact me.

Alright, someone asked for low light shots so I went out at night and turned on only the available light. This is what I got. It's about the same light conditions I'm getting without the adapter, perhaps a little less.

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/lowlight.mov

Also, about the color loss, a little saturation increase in photoshop did the trick:

before (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke5.bmp)

after (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/juke5a.bmp)

original without adapter (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/AUT_0088.JPG)

I may be the first one to post that it's "Chantilly Lace" but I know I'm not the first one to have listened and recognized it. You forget, there are a lot of old-timers around here, and I ain't even talkin' about me! :)

Look through my old posts in adaptor threads (last year). I found a few alternative, hi-bright/res focusing screens. I think Canon had one of the highest resolution ones, but was hundreds of dollars, Olympus also had one.

. .this is a very exciting thread - Thanks from London! . . I reading and thinking of my XM2 with a long "snout" . . . sniffing for small DoF!

Keep it up lads . .and lassies?

Anyways, great stuff and thanks for sharing.


Grazie

Ben those results are looking good.
I've got a Nikon D that I used on a marla movie type set up,would you mind posting what yours looks like,I'd love to try this out.

Rylan

Certainly. Here's a labeled side view of my adapter:

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/SideViewAdapter.gif

and some pictures of it from different angles:
---

LCD Screen View (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/LCDScreenView.jpg)
Entire Assembly Connected (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/OverallView.jpg)
Where I put my magnet and what that looks like (polarity matters, btw) (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/MagnetView.jpg)
Closer View from the front (http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/SweetViewCloser.jpg)

---
I can get more pictures if you need them.

I'm definately getting a better picture with that better lens, btw. I was using a cheaper one before, this one gets great results.

Truly stunning results! Do you have some more "real world" examples of the results?

I'm in awe! Your final of your pebble demonstrating the DoF has convinced me. How did you light that scenario?

Best regards,

Grazie

I had a par56 spot on, a reflector screen as balance, and 2 lekos cross-lighting the pebble.

Ok, just kidding. I just happen to have really nice halogen bulbs in a fixture overtop my kitchen counter.

In terms of real-world, I plan on shooting a huge bunch of footage tomorrow outside, provided I get some kind of usable outdoorsy light (i.e. non-london weather). :)

That's hopefully getting posted tomorrow. I'm glad you like the results!

Best of luck with whatever you try.

I'm glad you like the results!

Like?!?!? I love 'em! And noooo moving parts too!

can't wait for tomorrow ..

Actually the weather has ben great for the past week ..

TIA,

Grazie

It does look fantastic. How is it for fast pans? I have heard also that the asian macro (as well as my Tiffen) have terrible colour abberation - have your shot a street light or a lamp light to see if you are getting colour separation?

Also, you mentioned a PCX before, but in the picture of the adapter, you didn't label it - have you gotten rid of it?

Using someone else's advice, I was able to get the macros down to +7. In terms of color abberation, I'm getting nothing special but interesting lens flares when I shoot bright light ;).

Fast pans are fine. You don't notice the grain any more than you do normally.

The PCX still hasn't come, I never used it, and with this better Canon 1.4 lens I'm getting more usable space on the focusing screen than I ever dreamed of--basically the entire thing except the extreme corners (which are dirty anyway). The only complaint I have is that I mounted it a bit off somehow, so the screen isn't dead center--depending on the way it's screwed on, it's either a bit too high or a bit too low, which means I have to zoom in an unnecessary amount to get rid of the blank spot. It irks me, but nothing more. lol. I can still focus on it. Plus that means even less grain if you just leave it there and cover it up by making it widescreen in post (seems like most people do that anyway).


I'm willing to make these and sell 'em for $230 with Canon 50mm f1.8 SLR Lens if anyone's interested and doesn't feel like making them themselves. Or $200 without the lens. You could get a vibrating GG adapter from www.adapterplace.com for $300 (without SLR lens), but personally for some reason I don't like his results as much. Maybe it's the gratification of making it yourself ;).

I was able to get on set of a local TV show, "Nigel's Garden." Taking my camera and gingerly placing it near the talent, I was able to get this:

http://www.astronautradiomusic.com/nigelsgarden.mov

They even let me convince them into actually using the camera to shoot a few parts. Enjoy!

Nice clip, love all that vegetation.

I know you're in the UK but... was that guy's accent for real? I felt like the clip was three seconds away from a request for Grey Poupon. ;-)

I felt like the clip was three seconds away from a request for Grey Poupon. ;-)


Grey Poupon? - Who he?


Anyways Ben! Hilarious! All that "received" English . .too funny . .

Ben? I guess you were on auto exposure - yeah?

Ben? Your film was funny, but have you seen the results of the rotating GG?

Here is the links:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=345710&highlight=gg#post345710

and this is down-loadable MPG short:

http://www.nuocsong.com/nhatho/adapter/test.mpg

I'd like to see a head-to-head with yours worked on a tripod and demonstrating the DoF as per our colleagues? Perhaps if you went with manual expo it would assist to get a better idea.

Up to you, of course!

Regards

Grazie

I'll definately get right on that. At lower apertures the grain can be easily seen, btw. I'll show that too.

There's definately a huge advantage with moving ground glass, I must say.

Haha, yah I was on auto exposure. I'll turn that to manual next time.

"I know you're in the UK but..."

gotcha! We're in Maryland, in the states. That was just a friend of mine foolin around. He was born in Europe and loves to research everything there is to know about other countries, he has a thing for d*ckin around if you know what I mean.

Ahhhh you were talking about Graham's weather, when you said "provided I get some kind of usable outdoorsy light (i.e. non-london weather)". I thought you meant your own. Well, welcome to the United States! We have IKEA.

Graham, Grey Poupon is the distant cousin of Colonel Mustard from the game CLUE (CLUEDO in Euroland). Grey is froufy and lacks the hard-nosed appeal of the Colonel. He's under suspicion for an incident involving the knife, the wrench (spanner, to you), and the revolver, in the conservatory.

Edit: btw, that is "oscilating" or at least "vibrating" GG in that link you posted. Not rotating. Just FYI.

I recieved my screen in the mail today, so now I've got to figure out how to fit it in a 55mm filter. Home Depot here I come.

Hey Riley, where did you buy the screen from? Keep me posted on project and how you manage to get the screen mounted.

I certainly will, and I bought mine from B&H.

You could glue it to a UV filter. I'm investigating finding on of those rotatable mounts because it's a bit of a hassle to turn the screen the right way so it lines up in the frame. Of course, if you always plan on using the same setup (macro lenses don't change, etc.) setting it up once should be enough.

My solution today was to buy a sheet of thick paper (project paper) which is the same thickness of a uv filter. I cut out a 55mm filter sized circle and then cut out a rectangle in the middle of that which holds the focus screen without glue. Then I got an empty filter ring and set the circle inside it. Works good for now until I can get a permanant plastic mount. I also found that I need a stronger macro. The grain on the screen is more than I got from the home-made gg, but it doesn't bother me like it does other people. Once I find a +10 macro, I'll post footage from my adapter.

thats exactly what I had planned on doing until I found that the screen touched the 52mm frame at each of the four corners. Talk about lucky.