can we use both for monitoring and out-board recording?

I've read somewhere they are switchable

It's one or the other and not both together.

that's bad.
So if we want to use the Ninja recorder wich only have one Hdmi input, we can't use the sdi out for monitoring.
We also have to take the right decision for monitoring or get a monitor with both hdmi and sdi

humm ... will need a little help!

that's bad.
So if we want to use the Ninja recorder wich only have one Hdmi input, we can't use the sdi out for monitoring.
We also have to take the right decision for monitoring or get a monitor with both hdmi and sdi

The HD SDI output can be split at the camera output and sent to multiple monitors.
The HDMI output can be split at the camera and sent to multiple devices.
Small HD DP 6 monitor has both HDMI and HD SDI inputs.

Using an active HDMI splitter on a camera is a hassle.
And the DP6 doesn't provide an HDMI pass-through.

I guess going with the KiPro mini and HD-SDI is better and specially for longer length monitoring and recording.

And of course the NanoFlash can take either HD-SDI or HDMI as an input, while outputting both HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneously.

And of course the NanoFlash can take either HD-SDI or HDMI as an input, while outputting both HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneously.

This is another solution but at a cost ... I have the nanoflash and use it with my EX3 religiously however, there is another lower cost solution if you don't want to go that route (AJA KI Pro mini and ninja excluded) and that is the MXO2 mini for about $500.

10 bit is a minimum nowadays specially if you're investing now.
I work in pro-res all day and love it but hate to carry a pack of compact flash and transfer one by one to the mac...
The ninja seemed great but lack ins and outs.
I guess i'll wait for the new 10 bit generation in 2 month.
Maybe if Blackmagic could read and come-up with a device with dual recording (CF and HardDrive) and with 10 bit pro-res and Xdcam.

It's one or the other and not both together.

Where did you hear this info? I've been to all the CineAlta meetings and I never heard that it was limited to either or...

It's in the menus. You can select either HDMI or SDI but not both. The F3 uses many of the same processing and output components as the the EX1R/PMW-350 and these have the same limitation.

10 bit is a minimum nowadays specially if you're investing now.
I work in pro-res all day and love it but hate to carry a pack of compact flash and transfer one by one to the mac...
The ninja seemed great but lack ins and outs.
I guess i'll wait for the new 10 bit generation in 2 month.
Maybe if Blackmagic could read and come-up with a device with dual recording (CF and HardDrive) and with 10 bit pro-res and Xdcam.

What about the AJA KI Pro? I has a hard-drive and an SSD option as well?

10 bit is a minimum nowadays specially if you're investing now.
I work in pro-res all day and love it but hate to carry a pack of compact flash and transfer one by one to the mac...
The ninja seemed great but lack ins and outs.
I guess i'll wait for the new 10 bit generation in 2 month.
Maybe if Blackmagic could read and come-up with a device with dual recording (CF and HardDrive) and with 10 bit pro-res and Xdcam.

The Ninja can only record 8 bits of info because ALL HDMI camera outputs are 8bit only.

The Ninja can only record 8 bits of info because ALL HDMI camera outputs are 8bit only.

Their website says 10bit, and HDMI supports all the way 16bit RGB. I take it you've tested the Ninja and determined they are wrong, as well as testing ALL HDMI outputs from ALL cameras to confirm they are 8bit :D

It's in the menus. You can select either HDMI or SDI but not both. The F3 uses many of the same processing and output components as the the EX1R/PMW-350 and these have the same limitation.

I have met with Sony in NYC yesterday and I specifically asked about this: Their answer was direct. That is only because it was a pre-production model and they do not know yet if they will both work at the same time, they are still developing it.

So it seems to me like they are working on getting both streams at the same time, but again he specifically said do not go by what the capabilities of the pre-production models have... It very well could change.

And also he stated most likely 10bit for HDMI.

Heres a link to all the rest of the answered questions from the "meeting":

http://gpcinematography.blogspot.com/2010/12/questions-for-sony-regarding-f3.html



Happy New Year!

That is only because it was a pre-production model and they do not know yet if they will both work at the same time, they are still developing it.

I doubt very much that there are any hardware developments on the basic unit still going on. It takes months to develop a chipset and put it in to production, the cameras are due to be at the dealers in early Feb, just a few weeks away. The hardware development would have been finalised months ago, probably prior to the manufacture of the pre production cameras, as a rule it's only small firmware changes that get made between pre-production and delivery. I expect production has already started as Sony have a long QA process that the first units must pass before release to the dealers. So I'm pretty sure Sony do know exactly what the output options will be. It's more likely that the people at the meeting either know the answer but won't say or most likely simply don't know the correct answer themselves.

I'd place money on it being one or the other, just like the EX1R, PMW-320, PMW-350 as from what I've heard they share many common components. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

It seems like the HDMI and HD-SDI working at the same time is not a hardware issue but software, there for its still within their time frame to update. They can also introduce firmware updates later down the line just like Arri and RED are doing.

If the hardware to provide simultaneous HDMI and SDI signals is not present, all the firmware in the world won't change that situation. While modern FPGA's are highly programmable, if they don't have enough of the right logic blocks then all the firmware in the world won't help. Typically specialist I/O functions such as SDI and HDMI require dedicated hardware.

We will have to wait and see. I still say Sony know what the production cameras will be able to do, they might still be writing and de-bugging the launch version of the firmware, although this close to launch I doubt even that, right now they are probably working on the next firmware release. I'm quite sure the engineers know what the hardware that they chose to use is capable of. I don't buy that they don't know whether it will work or not, it either has the capability to do it or not.

Well i hope it's a software upgrade issue.
Imagine a company offering a great HDMI viewfinder soon...you'll loose the sdi out??

What about the dual link sdi, they should have different circuitry and they are not inherited from the EX1
Can't we just use it as single link?

It is a single link - 3G. The data rate on 4:4:4 is just under 3Gbs so they are utilizing the 3G technology to put the entire signal out on one bnc connector.

Also, the R1 recorder will have the capability to record simultaneous dual 4:4:4 outputs which is an unbelievably great benefit for future F3 3D users.

Well i hope it's a software upgrade issue.
Imagine a company offering a great HDMI viewfinder soon...you'll loose the sdi out??


There is such a company:

http://www.cineroid.com/web/images/eng_pro0107g.jpg

I am currently using it on my AF-100 HDMI out, while simultaneously sending the HD-SDI out to the client monitor.

What's the resolution and colour accuracy of the Cineroid like.

EDIT: OK I found the resolution 800x480.. but is that RGB pixels or actual resolution in which case actual resolution somewhat below that required for HD focus IMHO. I assume it is the pixel count. I'd have to see one in the flesh first. The EX/F3 LCD is 1920x480.

I have been playing with the Cineroid EVF for the last couple of days, mostly on the AF100. I really like the look of the screen and menu functions. The screen has a resolution of 800x480, which looks great when the diopter is up. With the diopter down you can start to see the individual pixels, but it is very easy to pull focus with. I would like if they offered a less magnification diopter, you end up looking around the screen a bit like being too close to the tv. The diopter is well made though.

We just started selling this - Cineroid Electronic Viewfinder (EVF) :: LCD Screen Accessories :: HDSLR Accessories :: Camera Accessories :: Equipment Sales :: Abel Cine Tech (http://www.abelcine.com/store/Cineroid-Electronic-Viewfinder-EVF/)

The product manager from Sony did suggest that it might be possible to get both SDI and HDMI output live at the same time. No promises though.

800x400.

It is plenty enough resolution for critical image evaluation, especially with the 1:1 pixel feature.

I love mine.

So it sounds like it's 800x480 RGB pixel sets as opposed to 800x480 individual pixels. Sounds like it's going to be worth a serious look. The price is certainly good.

What's the resolution and colour accuracy of the Cineroid like.

EDIT: OK I found the resolution 800x480.. but is that RGB pixels or actual resolution in which case actual resolution somewhat below that required for HD focus IMHO. I assume it is the pixel count. I'd have to see one in the flesh first. The EX/F3 LCD is 1920x480.

I have heard numerous complaints in re the usability of the soon-to-be released F3's EVF. At the same time, several reviewers have lauded the utility of the aforementioned Cineroid EVF, which appears to have a lower degree of resolution. If that is indeed the case, what are the inherent problems with the F3's VF?

Additionally, if the Cineroid device proves to be more effective for pulling focus than the F3's native VF, given that it requires an HDMI input, along with the possibility that the production F3s may not allow for simultaneous output from both the SDI and HDMI ports, it would seem that use of this EVF would negate one's ability to use an external recording device.

There does seem to be some occasional confusion about the EVF/LCD.

From my experience with the EX1 and EX3, the LCDs are excellent for the price range of those cameras - but the EVF on the EX1 is awful.

That said - I have heard some people stating that the EVF used on the pre-production PMW-F3 cameras is not the one planned for the final cameras.

However, I believe that the placement of the EVF on the F3 just isn't practical. I don't see people frequently holding the camera in such a manner that it makes sense to use the EVF at the rear of the camera.

It may, for some users be sufficient to use an aftermarket diopter to make the flip out LCD similar to the EX3. However, I'm hearing some operators who don't feel the placement would be optimal, hence an external solution like the Cineroid.

Regarding the Cineroid and outputs - if you did use the Nanoflash you would have both an HDMI and an HD-SDI output, regardless of which you used for input.

Therefore, you could route the HD-SDI from the camera to the Nanoflash, then send Nanoflash HDMI to the Cineroid, and send Nanoflash HD-SDI out to Video Village or producer monitor.

Of course, the Nanoflash only is 8bit...but that's a different conversation.

The Cineroid has HDMI pass thru.

The EVF's that I have seen on the F3 appear to be the same as the ones on the EX1R which is a big improvement over the EX1 EVF, however it is still tiny.

The benefit that I see in the Cineroid is that you can place it wherever you want, including the traditional VF location just in front of the body and above the rear of the lens. If you use the F3 LCD then you must be behind the camera body, so shoulder mounting is not as easy.

In many situations I think the F3 LCD will be adequate, especially with a 3rd party loupe, for example on a tripod with the LCD tilted upwards and viewed from above.

Thank you both for your replies.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the EVF is like on the shipping version of the F3. Like many others, I have one on order as well.

In regards to an outboard recorder, I am aware of the Nano's active outputs but I'm considering one of the alternatives, i.e. AJA, primarily for the 10 bit ProRes codec. That said, aside from the nuisance and inconvenience of extra wiring, I do not know if the AJA products (Mini and or AJA Pro) offer simultaneously active SDI and HDMI outputs--will have to check into that.

Thanks again.

Addendum: Looks like the Ki Pro does offer an active HDMI output ... not sure about the long awaited Mini.

I didn't use or like most of the shoulder mt adapters for the Ex or the HVX for that matter - preferring to simply use a monopod with a tilt head lodged in a fannypack on my waist.
With that kind of a set-up do you think the position of the LDC would be easier to use with something like a hoodman diopter?

I also noticed that the microphone is still protruding well in front of the camera. With a short lens could that continue to get in the way of the mattebox like it does on the EX-1?

Leonard,

I'm not sure what photo you're referring to, but my understanding is that the PMW-F3 has no internal microphone, and does not include a specific mic for use in the included microphone cradle.

I suppose if you used a long shotgun mic and a short wide lens, it could be in the frame, but I haven't had my hands on the camera yet.

I guess what I saw was a photo showing a mic in the mic holder but I didn't know it wasn't built in. I guess if you just worked with a short mic and moved it out of the way when sliding filters in and out you would be OK.

From page 124 of the camera manual:

No signal is fed out from the SDI OUT connector when “SDI/HDMI/i.LINK I/O Select” of the VIDEO SET menu is at any setting other than “HD SDI” or “SD SDI,” enabling the HDMI OUT connector and the i.LINK (HDV/DV) connector.

From another forum;

" Bandpro in Burbank just received a production model of the F3 today. They were testing the outputs with the Cineroid EVF and to everyone's dismay, they discovered that the F3 does output both HDMI and HD-SDI simultaneously....BUT ONLY when it is recording and outputting 59.94"

My experience with pre production cameras is that it is rare to have major changes between pre production and production. Once again this holds true.

Had an F3 for testing and HDMI and SDI not working simultaneously.
So i guess the atomos ninja is out of question for now as i need both on-camera monitoring and client monitoring.
Will check if the Ki-pro mini has two HD-SDI outs.

From another forum;

" Bandpro in Burbank just received a production model of the F3 today. They were testing the outputs with the Cineroid EVF and to everyone's dismay, they discovered that the F3 does output both HDMI and HD-SDI simultaneously....BUT ONLY when it is recording and outputting 59.94"

It would be good for someone well placed with a Sony Marketing or Production Manager to put the question to them. This is a major consideration for a lot of people. There are only a couple of 3rd party EVFs available and I do not know of any that are HD-SDI based. Of course there is the option of an external HD-SDI based monitor or channeling the signal through a nanoFlash but those solutions will be small comfort to many who want to make a shoulder rig out of the F3.

I know this isn't optimal - but you could use an AJA Hi5 HD-SDI to HDMI converter.

They're about $500, and offer both an HDMI output, and a loop through for the HD-SDI.

So... you could go HD-SDI out of the camera, then split the signal, feed both the EVF and a client monitor.

I don't know the technicalities of the converter - so I'm not sure you'd want to use it for HDMI recording (ie, Atomos Ninja), but seems like a valid monitoring option.

AJA Hi5 HD-SDI/SDI to HDMI Video and Audio Converter HI5 B&H

The upcoming Redrock EVF is supposed to have hdmi pass through. No telling when it will ship.

Just came from the Sony SR memory event in Toronto. There is an update on the firmware that allows both HDMI and SDI at the same time. Actually, it also gives you an option to separate the dual link and have a clean 1.5G to record to a Nano, the main SDI that you can have TC in etc from the LCD, and the HDMI as well.

That sounds like excellent news. Is that an official firmware? When will it be released?

I had a production version of the F3 for the last couple of days and it didn't have this firmware yet. I think its pretty new. So hopefully we will be able to get it soon

Nigel, excellent news. Any useful information that came out of the SR Memory presentation other than what you just stated? Looking for obvious things like the pricing on the dual-link firmware upgrade, SR memory and SR recorder costs and other technical improvements that will be rolled out when the recorder/firmware hits the market.

-Andrew

Andrew

They didn't mention pricing of the upgrades, but when asked about the recorder for the
F3, it was suggested that it would be lower than the price of the F3. The example of memory was a 32G SxS is $1000 (ish) and a 1T of the new Sony SR memory would possibly be less than the price per gig of the SxS which was around 4x. Basically, they didn't want to say, but you can get the idea.

They did mention that there would be 256 and 500 gig type memory. This new memory looked very impressive. They showed it recording from SR tape and simultaneously playing back with constant speed of 5G speeds. They said the future tapeless would be based off this new technology.

Thanks Nigel for the info and your efforts. Hoping the memory will be cheaper than they are suggesting.

Sony will be riding a fine line trying to undercut a usable RED package to a certain extent and be mindful of the surprise entrants into the marketplace that will occur around NAB.

If mindshare shifts away from Sony this could put a lot of downward pressure on their pricing model. Right now they have pretty much have the field to themselves in this price range. This could easily change in the next couple of months.

Any word at all of 10bit HDMI??

I have an email into Sony about that

Nigel

in the picture you posted i see S-Log and 4:4:4 RGB
so i think it's the paid firmware they already mentioned and not a free update to allow more output options
...well i hope not !

I noticed that . On page 109 of the manual it talks about the dual link being separated into 1.5 G SDI before that Sony upgrade. I checked with Sony and they said that is how it should work. They said HDMI works simultaneously as well, but I want to check again, because it doesn't read that way in the manual.

Things are moving very quickly and as the cameras are being released not sure what version of firmware is going to be loaded.

I should have mine tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea then

Heard an update today that the HDMI and SDI will work simultaneously after a firmware update in April. Also, the dual link split into 2, 1.5 g sdi signals will not work in 1920 23.98. with firmware v1. UGGGG. Just tested it out. So far my Nano seems to be the best solution for HDMI and SDI at the same time, but there is a short lag, and will have to get a TC transmitter to get TC on monitors for logging. The work around continues.