Sony has done allot of neat things with the NEX VG10 and really given it some awesome innovative features. However, at the exact same time, Sony has crippled this poor thing in the most blatantly cheesy and tacky ways. It's so bad that we can only guess it's to protect sales of it's "upper" models.

I can only imagine the Sony engineers laughing their heads off in meetings about what features to shut off on the camera. (would have loved to be a fly in that room)

So,....I lets help Sony (and others) come up with brand new creative ways for Sony to cripple great future cameras. It's OK to be cheesy and absurd. In fact, they might actually do it!

Lemme start...

Future super35 NXCAM type.....

1.) Beautiful "pro" picture quality but with Small bug burned in corner that says; "Not a pro camera"
2.) You can have zebras,...but it's fixed at one predetermined setting by Sony. (lol..Sony has "lower" models that have zebras...I love the irony!...muhahaha!)
3.) Full AVCHD bitrate,...but with only MONO audio....ahhh yes,..peeeeeeeerfect!
4.) Place SD card socket UNDER the tripod mounting plate. (love this idea..keeps the NX5 crowd away)
5.) No hard buttons,...everything deeply menu and touch screen driven. (damn,..that's not new?)

This will make the Sony EX1 department really happy and it makes for BRILLIANT and strategic market segmentation. Right? The ENG buyers would HATE this camera, but everybody else below them would LOVE it!

I dunno guys, I'm sure we can help Sony (and others) out with more cool new protection ideas.

Remember,...their goal is to make the BEST camera they can without actually making it "too good". It's kinda like a really good race car driver, driving his butt off to get in front of the pack,...only to slam on the breaks hard just before he crosses the finish line. I love it!

Frustrated (but still loyal today) Sony fan.

CT

Remember,...their goal is to make the BEST camera they can without actually making it "too good".
Absolutely agree, and with VG10 i think they've outdone themselves, first camcorder I've seen LCD goes 90° only.

Absolutely agree, and with VG10 i think they've outdone themselves, first camcorder I've seen LCD goes 90° only.

Are you familiar with the EX1?

It's funny, I own an EX1R and I have never bothered to reverse the flip-out on it. Just checked mine,...dunno about the EX1 but they fixed it on the "R" cause it will flip over reversed (facing forward)

OH,...I got another crippling trick! Putting XDCAM EX codec on a really good super35mm sensor camera instead of the proper 4:2:2 codec. I almost fell over in my chair while reading that press announcement. (Especially when the competition is now using 4:2:2 on a "cheap" $6-7K 1/3rd sensor camera"

I mean jeesh Sony,...Canon broke the (price point) ice on the codec,...you might as well go along with them. You guys only look stubborn trying to ignore it and market against it with a 4:2:0 EX codec.

This is not a "comical" and "imaginary" idea that I'm saying here. It's actually going to show it's ugly head in 4 months.

But again,..this makes the entire "ENG camera department" side of Sony breathe a sigh of relief!

I can hear them now at Sony,...

Engineer 1: "My God,...have to seen that camera they are making down the hall?..."
Engineer 2: "Yeah,...I heard they are putting a damn 35mm in that thing!!..."
Engineer 1: "Yeah but they told me they got our back,...I heard they are only giving it our "EX" codec.."
Engineer 2: "Oh,..Whew!,...that was a close one.....HAHAHAHAAAAHAAAAA!!!"
Engineer 1: "...Hahhaaahahaaaa....hahaaaa.....!
Engineer 2: "...Hahaha,.....[pauses,...looks at coworker, ponders the situation and breaks out in laughter again]...

I love Sony and I understand the general concept,...but Jeez, they are just way too damn paranoid on this "market segmentation" thing.


CT

Are you familiar with the EX1?

are you?
on my EX1 LCD rotates 180°

are you?
on my EX1 LCD rotates 180°

I misunderstood your comment "LCD goes 90° only". The EX1 will certainly rotate more than 90 degrees, but will not bend back on itself further than 90 degrees unlike many other cameras.

The EX1 will certainly rotate more than 90 degrees, but will not bend back on itself further than 90 degrees unlike many other cameras.
with EX1\R\3 LCD folding design that would be absolutely useless.
And talking about VG10, inability to face LCD same direction as lens is a major design flaw.

"Flaw"?....nah, it was not an oversight. Sony engineers know exactly what they are doing in designing these things. Im sure it was intentional. Practically all Sony cams today can do it. (All the ones i have ever played with in stores)

CT

I'm with Cliff: Sony engineers know exactly what they are doing in designing these things. It's not cameras they're making, it's money. The boardroom decisions are taken to make the model sell well at a certain price point, not to make it flawless in every department.

Look on it this way - Sony's decision making over that last 50 years has been pretty damn good - so good in fact that they can punch out fearlessly, introducing Elcassette, Mini Disc, Micro MV and Digital8 - all the while accepting the fact that they've been huge commercial failures.

All cameras are compromises, but competition assures us, the buyer, of huge variety and amazing quality at startlingly good prices. So no more talk of cripple, Cliff. There's always a better camera in the brochure - all you have to do is spot it.

tom.

I think brand loyalty actually helps fuel the "let them eat cake" thinking you complain about. Your dialog between the engineers very well might have had a line or two and some laughing about the Sony loyalists "buying whatever we give them. Bwaaaaaaaaah hahahahahaha".

The best thing you can do is go get a camera from someone whose made one with the features at the price point you will pay. Vote with your checkbook.

And so what of us that are NOT brand loyalists, who still choose Sony from time to time? Sometimes they just have a better product. I bought an EX1 because it was absolutely the best camera at the price point when it was introduced. I still think that's largely true, but it's time is nearly over. The market under $3k is SUPER competitive now with a lot of great cameras. Really, it's more a matter of selecting features than cameras from what I see.

Over 10K the game changes a bit.

Perhaps the role of the vg10 is to get something in the market that on the surface offers an alternative to all the other cameras. In this role it has been doing it's job. The fact even I call it a wonderful camcorder means the vg10 is not horrible.

The problem NOW is the GH2 is arriving. I'm not sure if the VG can continue it's role except amongst those who read nothing. Or, you insost they must have a camcorder.

Sony could very easily fight back with a CES firmware release. Or, it could alter it's price by selling it with the 16mm or 18200 or just the adaptor.

But, if CES passes with nothing, then Sony will get no coverage until the NEXCAM at NAB.

And so what of us that are NOT brand loyalists, who still choose Sony from time to time? Sometimes they just have a better product.

I agree. That's fine. In fact, not being a brand loyalist was my point. I was really speaking out of experience as I recently woke up and broke an 8 year boycott of Sony upgrading from the XH-A1 to an EX1R. I'm now of the opinion that the best thing we can do is reward the manufacturer who can deliver the features we want. For my A-Camera needs, Canon didn't and Sony did. For my B-Camera needs, the VG10 doesn't but I wish it had.

I hear ya. Same reason I bought an EX1. Sony delivered Panasonic didn't. I had already bought 2 Panasonics. And a Canon. Sony just got it right with the EX1.

OH,...I got another crippling trick! Putting XDCAM EX codec on a really good super35mm sensor camera instead of the proper 4:2:2 codec. I almost fell over in my chair while reading that press announcement. (Especially when the competition is now using 4:2:2 on a "cheap" $6-7K 1/3rd sensor camera"



I expect the problem was that part of the market for the F3 uses HDCAM SR and other formats, so they decided to go for a proxy in camera and allowed the customer to decide if they wanted to use a Nanoflash or other more expensive systems. If they wanted a few grab B camera shots the on board codec could do the business as currently happens with EX1/3s and the DSLRs.

The NEX -VG10's main competitor is the AF100, which doesn't offer 4:2:2 either, so the time to complain would be if Sony don't offer a HD SDI.

A 1/3" sensor is going for a different market to a Super35 sensor camera. The Canon fits "the replace the Z1" camera to make HD productions for the BBC brief.

Absolutely agree, and with VG10 i think they've outdone themselves, first camcorder I've seen LCD goes 90° only.
This is not so bad as you think.
We had 2 Camcorder, HC1 with broken ribbon from the display. If you see how these are bended, you know why this must give problems.
Im happy with the VG10, it takes some time to be familiair. Of course I hope Sony will update the soft so there is at least a zebra and a possibility for sharpness.

Happy Christmas
Dirk PEL(NL)

Perhaps the role of the vg10 is to get something in the market that on the surface offers an alternative to all the other cameras. In this role it has been doing it's job. The fact even I call it a wonderful camcorder means the vg10 is not horrible.

The problem NOW is the GH2 is arriving. I'm not sure if the VG can continue it's role except amongst those who read nothing. Or, you insost they must have a camcorder.

Sony could very easily fight back with a CES firmware release. Or, it could alter it's price by selling it with the 16mm or 18200 or just the adaptor.

But, if CES passes with nothing, then Sony will get no coverage until the NEXCAM at NAB.

Very good post

GH2 appears to be cutting edge now. Not without it's own silliness: little batteries, poor LCD, but it seems to be ahead in many ways of just about everything.

It's only fundamental weakness seems to be 2x crop and resulting wide angle shortfall. But 4/3 sensor loves the c mounts, and 1:1 crop option mean it rules in the tele arena.

The vg has all sorts of sillyness, but the screen flip is far down the list. The LCd is frankly the best I have seem--- check the size and Rez. It's great.

Us vg10 folks can take solace in the fact that all those fixed lens fancy cameras are a generation behind.

A proper camcorder form factor, better lcd and better battery life are, I think, enough to give the VG10 the edge over the GH2 in terms of practicality for shooting video even without zebra and focus assist.

The question is, what is a "proper" camcorder form factor? The grip on the side style is POPULAR, but it certainly isn't PROPER because it is inherently out of balance. The EX1 is the worst of this breed.

A still camera when held correctly by the left hand, is inherently in balance in all directions.

The VG10 has controls you can not SEE, a still camera has it's important controls on the back and top. With a still camera you can use your right hand for controls which is perfect for right-handers.

I haven't found anything about a camcorder form factor that makes it better.

Hey Steve,

Maybe it's just a case of the devil you know - I'm very used to working with the camcorder form factor and am comfortable juggling all the settings, feeling for buttons from memory and know how to nurture my kit along to get results I'm happy with. After a recent test of my brother's GH2 (entirely in my personal flawed and subjective opinion) it feels a bit off making videos with a stills camera. Don't get me wrong. The picture looked great. I'm also sure that with practice I'd get used to it and develop the same feel I currently have for the camcorder form factor equipment I own, but thankfully I don't have to. I struggle enough learning anything new at the best of times ;)

I think there is an argument that for people wanting to work as camera crew further up the industry familiarity with the form factor adopted by all of the higher end digital kit like the cinealta range etc... is beneficial, but that stuff is all way out of my league at the moment so I guess this last point is more idle speculation than anything else. It would be interesting to hear from any camera Op's who came up through DSLR's and are now working with that gear what it was like making the transition...

Also, I never use the side grip, always the top handle and generally rely more on the LCD (or a small monitor if I'm lucky) only using the viewfinder to check focus. I'm 6ft7 tall so holding the camera by the side handle would involve shooting over most people's heads and, like you say, tends to scew your shots into a permanent dutch angle anyway. Generally if I shoot anything handheld I use a fig rig and brace the camera against my ample belly, thus ensuring I'm at a good shooting height to frame people up correctly.

I agree the handle is how I would like to use the VG10, BUT

If I hold it in my right hand, the RECORD button is a pain to reach. This is why so many consumer camcorders place a button on the LCD and pro models put one on the handle.

Sony KNOWS ALL THIS.

Perhaps the bean counters were telling engineers NOT to add functions.

Perhaps the market design folks were insisting the design was "minimalist" and fewest buttons demanded,

Perhaps, the VG10 was a designed very rapidly.

When the NEX-7 arrives in March, it is likely to be be priced about $1000. If It has the VG10's VF -- which is likely -- it will offer more competition to the VG10. It would be an ideal time for a VG20 -- if Sony is serious about a camcorder form factor.

The problem for buyers is -- when the NEX-3, -5, and VG10 were announced there was no GH2. We thought Sony had leaped ahead

Sony, of course, will maintain it could care less about what Panasonic does. But, if Canon also rolls out a 2011 line of cameras -- Sony will be crazy if it doesn't respond in some way.

So we might just get what we want.

PS: I'll bet the Sony Dial could become a left-side RECORD button if Sony spent an hour thinking about it.

I agree about the record button--very hard to hit it without moving the camera

I estimate if Sony spent 1 day of thinking most everything we want would arrive. :)

I'm still trying to work thru the pro group at Sony all of whom I know well (at who will be at CES) to get an appt with the right person in the consumer group. If I have to I'll hang at the booth until I button-hole them.

The laugh will be if Canon comes out of left field with something nice. Or, Nikon.

The question is, what is a "proper" camcorder form factor? The grip on the side style is POPULAR, but it certainly isn't PROPER because it is inherently out of balance. The EX1 is the worst of this breed.

A still camera when held correctly by the left hand, is inherently in balance in all directions.

The VG10 has controls you can not SEE, a still camera has it's important controls on the back and top. With a still camera you can use your right hand for controls which is perfect for right-handers.

I haven't found anything about a camcorder form factor that makes it better.

The camcorder form grew out of ENG cameras from the 1970's where size of the components forced everything on to the shoulder. I was fortunate to just miss the two piece backpack era of portable cameras (that was just the camera, not the portable deck!). Once Betacam came in and one piece camera/VTR combos became possible, the cameras stayed on the shoulder. There is an inherent stability to the shoulder design that allows good weight distribution and two hand lens control. There's a reason that shoulder rigs for DSLRs are available. Still cameras are designed for taking stills not long, hand-held video shots. But for taking stills, a shoulder mount on a SLR would be a great hinderance.

It was the advances in camcorder technology that allowed the unit to get so small that it could be held in the palm. Great for convenience but not so good for picture stability. I call these cameras "wristcams" since the weight of the unit is largely in the wrist which can quickly lead to fatigue. Unfortunately some pro cameras are built out from this design, Panasonic is the lead culprit in this. Most of their smaller pro cameras, including the AG100, are designed like small cinder blocks that balance on the wrist. Fine on a tripod but tough hand held. Sony, who usually designs easier to hold cameras, came out with the blocky EX1 which led to complaints and the improved ergonomic design of the EX3.

Perhaps we'll see a design out from the DSLR's still taking roots to something more friendly to professional ENG/EFP video users. The NEX10 isn't it. Clearly not designed by the team that worked on any of the HDV pro cameras.

Perhaps the role of the vg10 is to get something in the market that on the surface offers an alternative to all the other cameras. In this role it has been doing it's job. The fact even I call it a wonderful camcorder means the vg10 is not horrible.

The problem NOW is the GH2 is arriving. I'm not sure if the VG can continue it's role except amongst those who read nothing. Or, you insist they must have a camcorder.

Sony could very easily fight back with a CES firmware release. Or, it could alter it's price by selling it with the 16mm or 18200 or just the adaptor.

But, if CES passes with nothing, then Sony will get no coverage until the NEXCAM at NAB.


I absolutely agree with this and it is buttressed by looking at pages like this:

Video Cameras & Camcorders | Sony | Sony Style USA (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10551&categoryId=16162&N=4294966232&Name=Video) Cameras & Camcorders

Where if you scroll down you see four major tabs / categories of cameras:

1. Bloggie HD Cameras
2. Handycam Camcorders
3. Interchangable Lens Handycam
4. Advanced Amateur & Professional

So by Sony's own categorization, the VG10 doesn't even rate 'Advanced Amateur', which I think is a huge mistake. I can say that what finally killed this camera for me was hook up that external monitor or recorder and your control displays, LCD & VF, go away. It's going to take a VG20 with a significant feature rework to interest me.