In tying up some loose ends before making a large equipment purchase I need to select an editing program. The question is not what I intend to do with it, the question is what can it not do, broadcast work etc. Everyone seems to use the other 2 major NLE's for broadcast, can Pro 10 ?? What is it's limitations other than my own abilities ??

Thanks for any help ??

Vegas Pro can definitely be used for broadcast work (it is every day).

Your question is a little open ended, though.

I would suggest you hang on a short while more. V10 rocks when i started using it but it is now a nightmare. Keep crashing for a 4min project that handles cineform avi stuff. I guess its normal for a program to be unstable when it is launched, i have friends trying to quite CS5 too.

If you are working with mxf (i did it for years with V8) it is rock solid.

Sean, just to verify - you DID update your Cineform to the version that works with Vegas Pro 10?

Thanks for the reply, yes it was rather open ended, but if it can perform broadcast work with ease, it will more than meet my needs and by the time it ever became a limitation it would be time to replace it anyway.

Keep in mind Don that if you intend to do much collaborative work with others in the broadcast industry you will likely want to use the tools they are using. Virtually no television stations, production houses use Vegas.

I love Vegas, but if I were doing projects for television I would take a hard look at Avid and Final Cut.

agree with jeff - vegas can do almost everything i need, but not necessarily what others might need; collaborative tools none existent, as are any comprehensive time code tools - there isn't even cmx output.....

but, if like me you're an indie producer supplying fished programs to the market - vegas can't be beat.

I sold to good morning america once and the today show another time, I simply mailed the DV tape to GMA as they were compiling a Jeb Bush story, the Today show simply had me dub to a local station. My actual reason for asking the broadcast question was to was to keep as many options open as possible. From shooting and editing news, educational programming, a second camera for weddings ( I do not want to be a wedding photographer ) to broadcast quality just in case another network said "We would like to have that". I am beginning to see that the question may not even apply now as raw would probably be preferred. Delivery would be a problem unless the cheaper SDHC cards are used. This is why I continue to bounce between sony and JVC but that is another long story (not counting what a Nano adds to the mix).

Can someone answer this. If I hand a Vegas edited piece off to an Avid broadcaster, will they be able to display it, re edit ? Learning about codecs and files has been one of my attempts lately, but I am failing miserably on getting the big picture. From what I can tell JVC uses Sony EX files right ?? All i want for Christmas is a book that goes in depth with camera files, editing, and documentary requirements :( Some of the terminology used by Discovery for submission requirements is alien to me.

Anyway, just trying to get good stable software that has some tricks without having to buy extra plug ins all the time and can handle a wide range of my needs and teach me a few more.

Sorry for the long winded post, but picking the right camera has as much to do with files, storage and editing as it does with image quality.

Any Vegas file is pretty much useless to anyone that doesn't use Vegas. AVI, quicktime, etc. are universal, of course, but an Avid editor cannot use Vegas files.

I'm not involved with TV at all, so I don't know anything except that broadcast pros use Avid and Final Cut.

In your position I would contact places I would likely be working with and ask them what they are using. Ideally if you used/had both Final Cut and Avid you would be golden.

I think generally speaking Avid would be the choice, but Final Cut is really making inroads into broadcasting. At least that is my understanding.

While it's true a Veg file would be pretty useless to someone running Avid. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, the OP was asking if he could deliver a finished product cut on Vegas to a station. The answer there is yes. Vegas can output in most if not all the major codecs, which can then be ingested into any edit system. You need to know what format your client wants. (just like in tape days did they want it on 3/4" Mformat, Beta heck if it had enough news value we took it VHS)and today they are taking stuff off Youtube and broadcasting, if it has news value.

for true collaborative work Avid and FCP do prevail, if you are sharing partial edits etc.

I remember the weather channel doing a story on a news stringer a few weeks ago. He was sitting in his car watching a website saying "yeah, there's a station picking up my story now" I have since wondered how he did that. in 2004 before local stations were HD, there was a DV to tape station set up for us at the studio. At the live vans I would use an RCA to BNC cable and another RCA for audio. I spoke to a friend recently about his new HD live van and he says he prefers firewire now. The RCA was anlog out to TV on the XL1S, I wonder what codec firewire uses, is it a specific codec ? What comes out of HD/SDI ?

Firewire is a type of cable similar in appearance to a USB cable. Firewire is actually disappearing from many new pcs now. I know when shopping for my motherboard last year I had to double check each model as I shopped because many models don't have FW inputs any more.

Firewire is a connector used for, among other things, transferring digital tape footage from consumer/prosumer cams to PC. Some external hard drives and other assorted hardward also use Firewire.

I am familiar with the cable and computer (bad wording on my part ) , my thinking was what format is it if he prefers it at his live van ? Almost every camcorder I look at has it including some very high end.

Sorry, Don. I found it hard to believe you wouldn't have known what firewire was..but your questions about what codec it is didn't make sense to me, so I thought you didn't know what it was...sorry.

If he's using firewire he's likely downloading digital tapes, I guess. Is that what you meant by what format is he using?

My friend runs a live van for a local abc affiliate, In speaking with him about camera selection I told him I was in the research phase of a new camera and was going to make sure it was HD/SDI, that's when he said he preferred news stringers to dump to his van with firewire, he takes it in, edits, then feeds it to the station. I had lunch with him but didn't look inside the van. There is a good chance his huge system is now just a small portable device. FOX affiliates use to use a briefcase device for DV and I am sure his old equipment was like a 400 pound VCR compared to what he has now.

My question was, What format does firewire have, it's own, or just a port that outputs whatever data is on it ?? I will have to have lunch and see his van, I do know that his station is 720p not 1080. What kind of file does a pmw ex3 have coming out of the HD/SDI at 4:2:2 ??

Thanks for the replies.

I know DV and HDV use firewire. Not sure of any others. I'd think tv stations would be going tapeless at this time instead of sticking with tape and firewire.

Firewire is a delivery system and doesn't have a format. Cameras have the format...tape, AVCHD, etc. The EX3 uses expensive cards. It might also use tapes, I don't know if it does both.

Some guys might be using hard disc recording units on their cameras. Likely those drives use firewire also.

The Sony Z5 and Z7 can accomodate a special sony recording unit that might be ideal for your usage:

Sony HVR-MRC1 Memory Recording Unit HVR-MRC1K B&H Photo Video

I might be wrong, but with one of the cameras above and the recording unit you'd be set, I would think. You can even record with both tape and recording unit at same time so you'll have a backup.

I suspect the Z5 would be a good choice..the Z7 has interchangeable lenses, don't think you'd need that, but I could be wrong.

Thanks Edward and Jeff,

I am guessing the firewire port on an EX3 would simply output the native files of the camera. The more I think the more I have to learn. It use to be I dealt with video that was ready to be displayed on a television, I guess I am going to have to research editing capabilities of the local stations, more to learn.

Thanks Folks

I'll second what Jeff said - a million times. Vegas is great but not in "professional" environment!.

Harsh words yes, but its true! not to say those of us who use it are not professionals, but off the top of my head, i don't know ANYONE but me (and you guys) who uses Vegas in a professional setting!!!!!! Almost everyone uses FCP, and i know a few top tier guys who use AVID!

I wouldn't dare mention to my clients that i edit on Vegas unless i have to and that is usually well after many days of rough cuts when they finally come in and sit in on the final edit and by that time the edit speaks for itself! I even have cracked copies of CS4 and Avid on hand just in case a client inquires (they almost never do and i never ever use those apps). Same with Protools M-Powered! I bought it (well it was free with gear), but never use it. I do everything in ACID (multi tracking, mixing, mastering, composing, etc).

I love Vegas COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!, I've rarely had problems since version one, but lets face reality; 99.9% of professionals have probably never seen it before and would dismiss it with a wave of their hand.

If you are producing and delivering by yourself, then you can get by easily. But even some dupe houses ingest via avid and fcp using project files! Beware!

Plus, in the future if you don't know FCP, AVID and even PPro, sorry, jobby go bye bye for mr.Vegas user:)! (ever see an ad asking for Vegas editors? EVER??!!!!?)

Take it from someone who's been at it while. Don't use vegas! Buy a iMac/FCP - or hell, find a student who can get a educational discount and get AVID!

Lastly support from 3rd party manufacturers and software developers routinely neglect Vegas! Where as FCP, Avid and even Adobe get new hardware/software constantly. CONSTANTLY!!!

Vegas is awesome but DON'T BUY VEGAS!

(ever see an ad asking for Vegas editors? EVER??!!!!?)

Yes.

There's no reason Vegas can't be used in conjunction with broadcast environments. Yes, if you need to share PROJECTS with someone else, you must use the same editor. However, If I was giving footage to a broadcastor, I would either be giving them the raw footage for THEM to edit or it would be already edited when I gave it to them!

Edward, you are correct, as always. I'm thinking along the lines of Mike also. If I were to start with a new system today, it would be FCP. Why? I could actually work for other people. I have friends who would throw me extra editing work if I used FCP. They've told me so. They love my editing, but I cannot drive an hour and spend all day editing at their studio. Starting from scratch, FCP wouldn't be a bad choice.

It's much pricier with the hardware, but the things that I see my friends doing, particularly with motion, which I believe is fully integrated with FCP when installed, is amazing. The things they do with DVD menus completely blows me away...3d DVD menus with motion graphics...just crazy stuff.

For handing off raw files Vegas will work, and save a ton of money, if that is all you need to do. I have to admit, I don't brag to anyone I use it either. They always say "Huh?" when I mention it.

Vegas does what I need, and overall it is a great program for event work.

I think Vegas 10 will be what will fill my need. I will be handing off raw video for what I do. I do have a couple of questions, forgive me as I am still learning everyday.

1. When you hand them a completely finished product, what will it be in after completing the project with Vegas, uncompressed, blue ray ?

2. Video that comes out of a camera is in it's native codec, such as the sony EX files stored on the SXS cards? The HD/SDI bnc outputs raw video, no compression, but it's digital, it must be in some kind of format right ??

Don, if you are handing off raw video as you say, you are not editing it. If it is edited it is not really raw any more.

I would think you would download the video to a portable hard drive and let the station have it that way, or however they want it delivered. Technically if you are handing off raw footage you wouldn't even need an editing program. Obviously you would want one to play with things and to help you learn from mistakes with your camera, but for raw footage delivery you don't actually NEED an editing program.

Anyway the type of files on the camera depend on the camera. the files on the Z5-Z7 would be m2t files.

On the HMC-150 they would be AVCHD type. Don't know about the EX1.

...
1. When you hand them a completely finished product, what will it be in after completing the project with Vegas, uncompressed, blue ray ?

2. Video that comes out of a camera is in it's native codec, such as the sony EX files stored on the SXS cards? The HD/SDI bnc outputs raw video, no compression, but it's digital, it must be in some kind of format right ??
1) A project completed in Vegas can be delivered in any of many formats. Let's see, mxf, avi, qt, either of those last two could be in any of several codecs. Vegas can deliver others, but those would be the most likely candidates for a broadcaster. Vegas won't render QT ProRes422, which might be a typical delivery from FinalCut. Vegas will do Avid DNxHD (if you download the appropriate codec), which might be a typical delivery from AVID. MXF might be used in an all-Sony house. AVI can wrap a whole series of codecs, including Cineform and uncompressed. Usually, you'd deliver any of these on a portable hard drive.

2) The Sony EX1 and EX3 deliver XDCAM-EX format files on the SxS, and get wrapped in MXF.

HD-SDI only comes in a couple flavors, "regular" and dual-link. This is a transmission standard, not a storage standard. AFAIK, any device that records HD-SDI lays it down in some codec, ProRes422 is common, Cineform on a few. Vegas will read ProRes (but can't write it).

I think the OP would do well to get the spec from a couple broadcasters he might shop footage or program to, and see what they expect.

This thread interests me greatly and bothers me a little so may I ask this question?

I'm planning to move from Avid Liquid 7.2 to Vegas 10 (64-bit). I was hoping to do so (installing Windows 7 64-bit and Vegas 10 64 bit on my computer in a natural lull in my business but now I find I shall have a couple of incomplete programmes. They consist of various sections of a 2 hour programme each section consisting of edited vision and mixed voice tracks. They will need the addition of music tracks the client hasn't yet chosen and then stitching together to create the finished programmes which will then be authored to DVDs.

I was planning to take them to a point when no further editing was required in Liquid then fuse them to m2v/wav files and import those into Vegas 10 for completion.

Is that possible and is there a better way? I confess that even in advance of this thread I was considering delaying the changeover until both programmes had been completed, approved and delivered. Although 80% of our work is approved at first edit my gut instinct is also telling e that if I've made a serious error that needs editing I might be creating quite a problem by not waiting.

Your views and advice would be welcomed.

Phillip, do you mind me asking why you would want come to Vegas rather than on to MC5?
I just kind of thought that if you knew your way around in Avid, wouldn't Vegas be a bit limited in its tool set?

Gerald I'm coming to the end of my career and until Avid started playing half-truths three years ago over NextGen (the Liquid replacement) it provided most of my needs. In the time it took for Avid to come clean and admit they had no intention of replacing Liquid the other serious NLEs developed further refinements.

I would have remained with Liquid, after all if it ain't broke .... but I found that important things like New Blue plugins simply aren't being made for Liquid any more - furthermore when I tried to install a Liquid version of a plugin I managed to source thanks to Ed Troxel here, it wouldn't install and the best I got from an Avid Liquid moderator was "plugins have always been tricky in Liquid". It was this last remark which finally determined me to move.

I could have moved to MC it's true but although the transfer cost was about the same as buying new into Vegas or Edius, the almost annual upgrades which often cost the same again made it unattractive. Then there is the very precise specification of the computer on which MC is supported. Of course the forums tell how MC works adequately on other spec computers but that's not reassuring. Finally, MC does far more than my rather modest needs now I do almost only weddings.

A pal in the wedding forum assured me that after a lifetime of NLE experience starting with MC when it was on a dedicated Mac, through Fast, Pinnacle, a diversion to Premiere, then Liquid, converting to Vegas wouldn't be a huge curve - and even then it would be a matter of finding out how to do what I wanted not finding out what I wanted in the first place.

Given that, do you think I'm making the wrong decision? It's probably too late to persuade Avid to let me into their transfer scheme which ended last June but your advice would be valuable.

philip,

i think, considering your circumstances, you'll find vegas offers all you could want and much more.

after 40+ years in the film and tv industry, and having worked with nearly every nle (from avid through to vegas - with almost every letter inbetween), i can assure you as an indie producer you'll want for nothing (other than buying plugins, a faster pc, bigger monitors, etc.,)

my only reservations have been voiced by many above - it's not industry standard in as much as there's literally no collaboration path, and it can't even spit out a cmx edl - but otherwise it rocks.....

Leslie, that's very encouraging, thank you.

I long ago learned that nothing in life is perfect and I know I shall miss never having to save and the background rendering of Liquid but the disadvantages of Liquid now outweigh the advantages.

Hi Philip,
I remember when Liquid first came out. Man I thought it was the cats meow, then I tried it and well let's just say it wasn't my cup of tea although it has some very innovative stuff for it's time.
I've been using Vegas since version 2 and have done all kinds of stuff, short and long form type stuff with it over the years, use many of the NewBlue plugins, have had stuff published on the web, on the TV and on the "big screen" (stuff for seminars projected onto the 10 and 12 foot fast folds ;-0 ).
While Vegas doesn't talk well with other NLEs that has never been a problem for me and I have been a happy camper with it. There is very little I can't do with it and botom line is that my clients are quite happy with the finished product I deliver. As one of my corporate clients once told me " I don't care if you use Movie Maker" to do the job, all I care about is what thefinished product looks like".
Learning curve is really not all that bad and after a couple of days one should have been able to figure out enough to be able to get thru an edit, maybe not as fast as one would like but that'll come in time.
I love Vegas (the software-well the town also but that's a different story).
Edward T has those great newsletter that although they may be written for the older versions the basics of Vegas are still the same, you might want to check them out if you haven't already.

Don, thanks for the input. I've always subscribed to the view that computers do one job well, two jobs less well etc and have a dedicated editing computer currently i5 quad core with 8GB RAM.

I'm also aware that whatever else it lacks Liquid (and other Avid products) is remarkably stable. I like not having to save and I likie background rendering both of which I'm prepared to forgo - but not stability. I can't live with a manual backup and unexpected reboots.

How does Vegas stack up in this respect - or is it a question I should only ask in private? People get very protective about their purchases sometimes to the point of denial I've found.

[QUOTE=Seth Bloombaum;1599669]1) HD-SDI only comes in a couple flavors, "regular" and dual-link. This is a transmission standard, not a storage standard. AFAIK, any device that records HD-SDI lays it down in some codec, ProRes422 is common, Cineform on a few. Vegas will read ProRes (but can't write it).QUOTE]

I guess the answer would be for Vegas to output in ProRes 422, but that is apple and they might not be able to get apple to allow it, correct ??

Vegas crashes for me:

Version 7e - Never (ok maybe once , twice a year...and i still use it 50% of the time)
Version 8? - A lot of crashes in the beginning as new releases are prone to bugs... i stopped using it very early in and went back to V7... and never went to 8 again
Version 9 (i don't know what version i have, C i guess) it crashes once a month, give or take....
Version 10 ( i don't have it) is out now but quite new! so i would wait a bit till Sony releases the next build, which they usually do pretty soon after build "a"


Some background:
- i mostly use Cineform HD and uncompressed files
- I have an AJA board w/HDMI out to a flat panel AND still use Firewire out to my JVC Broadcast CRT
- I don't use many effects cept for colour correction
- I use Magic Bullet looks/ New Blue FX and Cineform First Light religiously though.
- most projects are 30secs in length but sometimes up to 4 - 5 mins... and once in blue moon 20 - 30 minutes.
I push it V7/9 quite hard, very quick keyboard short cuts, quick switches between my monitors, etc and it performs great for me -

I've done some effects testing in FCP. One thing I really hate... I add the effect, start playback, and the only thing I see on the preview screen is "Needs Rendering" (or something like that). Adding transitions is a pain. Nothing feels "intuitive" to me.

Has anyone ever sat down with a FCP/Premiere/Avid user and ran through some of the paces in Vegas? It's interesting to watch their jaws drop when they see how easy it is to accomplish some of the simple tasks that take multiple steps in their NLE.

I can understand needing to go to FCP if you need to corroborate with many FCP users. I stick with Vegas for the sheer simplicity and speed of use. Plus, at this point I'd be lost without my scripts to automate so many tasks!

FCP is clunky, for sure. Avid is even worse.

I guess the answer would be for Vegas to output in ProRes 422, but that is apple and they might not be able to get apple to allow it, correct ??
Quite right - Vegas will render to whatever codec QT for Windows allows it to. Currently, Apple allows reading ProRes422 in QT for W. This is fairly recent. As to when or if they might enable writing to it? If it would make them some money I'd guess they'd do it right quick...

I have 9 and 10 and yet when 10 will not render due to 'low memory' I can't even open the file made in 10, in 9. Am I doing something wrong?

projects in 9 can be opened in 10 BUT NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

there hasn't been any backward compatibility for as long as i can remember (but i do have a short memory!}

Lee, open your 10 project, open a new instance of 9 and try doing a copy/paste from 10 to 9.
Some things such as track motion key frames will not copy over from one version to another.

Tried that idea Mike but it just messes it all up and takes forever.

Can't believe Sony didn't use their noggin and made them all compatible. Very poor IMO.