Let's start a discussion on a possible "pro"model.

Sony has a long running history of making 2 identical camcorders, one always being a crippled and "feature disabled" version of it's "pro" twin. (we could rattle off several Sony models marketed this way) There are some rumors of a possible VG10 clone model that will have features that the current VG10 doesn't have. Could we expect;

Zebras?
Peaking?
24p?
Full time 4:2:2 HDMI output?
Full audio level control?
XLR side mounted attatchment?

CES 2011 is comming up soon. Anybody want to add some speculation of this "rumored" model?

CT

Given the non pro is $2000--which IMHO is $500 too high, then the pro twin would need to be $3500, or so. Hasn't Sony already announce a box with a lens kuldge at about this price? Sorry, I took one look and decided it was as ugly as the A100 from Pana -- so I read no more about it.

However, if there is room in the $3000 to $4000 price space then I believe the pro vg10 has already been shown to folks in NYC. I need to say this as a rumor because once I learn it to be fact, I won't be able to say anything more! Or, I'll have kill you all.

If it works as it has in the past, we will get 24p and native recording of 24,25,30p plus XLRs with controls.

I doubt HDMI OUT while shooting, but we should get focus assist.

##

Now just to make things fun, I've been working with a NEX-5 and because I like the 1855 more than the 18200, with the discount on the 16mm, it seems like a really good deal compared to the vg10 or any $3500 camera. The focus assist makes the LCD useable! Simply touch the focus ring and it auto-enters zoom mode until you finish focusing.

Maybe I'm just cheap, but knowing new models will come fast, do I really want to spend over $800? You know Canon will respond!

The fact the lenses, chip, and video format are all the same -- makes the NEX-5 seem like a bargain compared with the vg10 plus buying 2 more lenses. And, if you happen to like 720p30 and h.264 more than you like AVCHD, the NEX-3 is damn near free.

Lastly, although the vg10's little button panel seems nice, the rear mounted dslr controls are better IMHO.

The key thing, is that the most important thing is a built in nd filter!!! It does no good to be able to set the shutter speed if the aperture needs to be f/22! So, the fact I can set aperture for dof with the NEX-3/5 and then chose an nd filter to determine the shutter speed is only the reverse of setting the shutter speed and using an nd filter to set the aperture, as is required by the vg10.

Given the non pro is $2000--which IMHO is $500 too high, then the pro twin would need to be $3500, or so. Hasn't Sony already announce a box with a lens kuldge at about this price?

Sony announce the NXCAM HD Super35 35mm camera | Paul Joy (http://www.pauljoy.com/2010/11/sony-announce-the-nxcam-hd-super35-camera/)
If that is the Sony you are mentioning, the Sony press release doesn't mention a price but Paul Joy and another site are saying $6000 so that could leave a gap. That puts it 6 or so months behind and $1000 more than the AF100.

The Panny TM700 at under $800 has peaking and tracking for focus assist. The $5000 AF100 has peaking and a Focus bar for Focus Assist. The GH2 at $999 has focus assist.

It will be interesting to see if Canon or Sony puts a product in that gap. From a big picture, the VG10 and a couple lenses kinda sits at the low end all by itself with no other large sensor camcorder around.

Which would make a $3500 improved VG10 very attractive. Which makes me think the Sony meeting a few weeks ago likely was about a "VG100".

Of course, unless it comes with no lens and just the adaptor, it's going to get expensive.

I would not consider the NXCAM super 35 "thing" to be the next step up from the VG10. Mostly because a super 35mm sensor with only 2 megapixels on it would easily outclass (in theory) any camera today below 10k. That's a huge jump up in quality.

I'm thinking this "VG100" will be a 99% physical clone simply outfitted with new firmware features. Same APSC sensor loaded with all it's usual heavily interpolated characteristics for video. (14mp sliced and diced down to 2mp for video)

This meeting in NY....what was that? Who was there?

NX5 seems cool but the video time limitation doesn't work for me.

I'm on the verge of adding the VG10 to my collection but I'm waiting for CES 2011 first. If they release a "VG100",...I'm definitely in.

I would also suspect this would have an "NXCAM" badge. (NX1 or something?)

CT

Can't say who was there but it was last week. Seems very unlikely it would be about the mid-2010 product unless Sony is trying FUD just as the A100 is released.

Since I'm reasonably sure it was a PRO division presentation and I know the PRO division will be at CES, I would say it is an "N" camcorder as you state.

Have you noticed there have been no reviews of the vg10? Very odd.

Can't say who was there but it was last week. Seems very unlikely it would be about the mid-2010 product unless Sony is trying FUD just as the A100 is released.

Since I'm reasonably sure it was a PRO division presentation and I know the PRO division will be at CES, I would say it is an "N" camcorder as you state..

Is this the meeting you are referring to? This is the invitation I received:
"You spoke and we listened. Come see Sony's newest handheld Super 35mm camera, the PMW-F3, that combines technology and creativity into a new tool for filmmakers. The PMW-F3 further enhances Sony's large sensor Super 35mm camera line with state-of-the-art engineering, compact size, spectacular performance - all at an attractive "indie" price.

This exclusive event will include a screening of some of the first footage acquired with the camera, and a panel discussion with the production teams involved. You'll also have a chance to demo the camera.

Date: Thursday, December 16, 2010 | 6 PM
Location: AMC Empire 25 with IMAX Theatre | Auditorium #14
234 W 42nd Street | New York, NY 10036"

In this new "large single sensor" craze thing that is going on, Sony definitely has a big price gap in their lineup. We got the VG10 at $2K than we have that new super35mm NXCAM at around $6k.

$2,000 and $6000,...so they could drop the VG10 to $1500 and drop in a "pro" version at around $3000.

I don't think a "pro" VG10 (VG100/NX1) threatens ANY higher model because the EX1 & NX5 are squarely aimed at the ENG, event "run&gun" crowd. The VG10 makes for a terrible "run&gun" camcorder. You will never see a Hollywood paparazzi guy or war corespondent or small news guy using a VG10. So, EX1s are safe.

Any thoughts?

I just figured it out. On the Vimeo site a person says they are going to a 3 day session in NJ on the F3.

This matches my independently learning of a 3 day meeting.

Also, as a member of the press I've gone to many product announcements and they have always been in the NYC Sony bldg.

So, this means no N1, or a surprise CES N1, or an NAB N1.

To give the VG10 a longer life NAB might be logical.

That would give them 2 e-mount camcorders.

One has to wonder if there's a business case at $3000. The demand for sDOF without the DSLR issues is a dam that's burst and flowing to the AF100. THe VG10 beat it to market but with the wrong specs so it didn't go there. Except for the Sony faithful, how much will be left to flow to the NXCAM35 at a $1000 premium? The F3 isn't in the discussion.

When the flood settles, you have the many for whom $5k is a stretch but doable and those for whom it's a no brainer all gone over to Panasonic and the AF100. THat is giving the Microfour thirds lens and accessories market a kick in the pants which drains away from Sony's Alpha and E mount industry.

That leaves the remaining who go for price where the DSLR always wins and those looking for a lock down charlie B-camera for whom S-DOF is a nice to have. Of that remnant looking for sDOF without the DSLR version 1.0 issues, the choice is VG10 at $2K and the GH2 at $1K with it's peaking, focus tracking, clean HDMI, 24p and 1:1 crop mode that turns any lens into a 5.2x (i.e. 300mm becomes 1560mm) expanded focus/ultra zoom. Here's an example from another thread on DVInfo of a 300mm lens turned into a glassless 1560mm lens):
GH2, 100-300, EX TELE setting, 24P on Vimeo

I think it's an uphill climb at this point. Cameras are power, lens, sensor box and storage. Compared to the GH2, the VG10 sensor box is twice the price and lacking modern focus assist. It just makes me wonder if there's enough of the market left to justify a $3K price point. To it's low side, the product would only be stealing from the VG10 and have to be featured enough to steal from the AF100. Interesting times. I hope they figure it out.

I agree. They should have made the VG10 $2500 and used firmware that supports what is really wanted. No need for two camcorders.

Frankly, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I'd pick a GH2 over a VG10 very quickly and I'm actually getting one not only for the features you mention but also for 720 60p and audio control but to be fair to the VG10, I wouldn't compare the price to a GH2 with a less than ideal lens. It should be compared to the GH2 with the 10x lens. I still think the price of the VG10 is way too much for offering so little compared to the GH2.

With that said, I'm looking forward to hearing more information about the S35 sized NXCAM since it's claimed 1080 60p might make the cut. Believe it or not but 1008 50p and 60p is gaining popularity and that would be a key feature to separate itself from the AF100 although who's to say Panasonic wont be announcing an AVC-Ultra version with 1080 60p and then you have the Red Scarlet and perhaps the 4K Canon camera.

Every single year there is always something to look forward to at NAB and the next one is definitely no different. Surprisingly I have never went yet and I'm not so sure I'll want to miss the one coming up.

I could have bought a GH1 -- the last one -- but once I lifted it I realized how heavy it was. The VG10 with the 1855 is just the right weight for me.

The GH1/2 lens was a monster. But, as far as know there is no 5X zoom for it.

But maybe the 3X with the electronic tele extender might work.

Correct me if I'm wrong,...is the VG10 the "only" APSC sensor video recorder that does NOT have a video recording limitation? The only APSC camera that does not overheat?

Another Sony model that is supposedly crossing into the VG10's marketing space is the new Alpha A77.

Rumors have it that the new Alpha A77 will have much (if not all) of the video capabilities of the VG10. The sensor overheating issue is still yet to be seen.

This is going to be the most interesting CES I can remember.

All of this feature set "crossing-over" stuff must be driving the marketing people nuts! Here is the new model "X",....now what features do we allow it to have AND how much do we cripple it too!! (We gotta protect each of our devices marketed above it....that works fine untill a competitor breaks the rules...lol)

Canon,..I love you for doing this to the industry!

CT

Correct me if I'm wrong,...is the VG10 the "only" APSC sensor video recorder that does NOT have a video recording limitation? The only APSC camera that does not overheat?

no it's not, there is RED and closer to the price point AF100

It seems at the NJ Sony meeting they were asked if they were going to do a upscale version of the VG10 and they said NO.

If this is true, then by bet is that mid-2011 Sony will release a VG20 that adds the focus assist function ( whose firmware obviously already exists!) plus audio controls for the wonderful mic. And, likely an improved menu from the coming NEX-7. Adding all this would constitute a genuine new model.

Of course, no 24p.

I don't remember if Sony has ever reduced the price of a camcorder as that is another option to move this crippled version more into the consumer space. It simply should be $1500 which might be possible if they bundled the 1855.

Right now the NEX-5 gives you a better shooting experience with two lenses for only $900! The video is really the same. Or, buy it with the cheapest lens and add a $35 adaptor for access to Nikon, Canon, and Minolta lenses.

Right now the NEX-5 gives you a better shooting experience with two lenses for only $900! The video is really the same. Or, buy it with the cheapest lens and add a $35 adaptor for access to Nikon, Canon, and Minolta lenses.

The whole point of the VG10 is that it is video camera shaped. I wouldn't have a stills camera form factor unit if you gave me one for free!

Correct me if I'm wrong,...is the VG10 the "only" APSC sensor video recorder that does NOT have a video recording limitation? The only APSC camera that does not overheat?

I think APSC vs MFT chip size is irrelevant. In an age when DSLR boxes half the price do not have the limit and do have focus assist, 1:1 crop mode, 24p etc, the VG10 looks like a miscalculation. As the sole player in the price point, Sony could have grabbed the market. Instead, by crippling the VG10, the market seems to be going to the Panny GH2 and AF100 who have the only large sensor cameras with all kinds of focus assist, audio meters 60p and 24p. For the price of a VG10, you can buy a TM700 and a GH2 and have all kinds of bases covered, except a top handle.

"As the sole player in the price point, Sony could have grabbed the market. Instead, by crippling the VG10, the market seems to be going to the Panny GH2 and AF100 who have the only large sensor cameras with all kinds of focus assist, audio meters 60p and 24p."

After reading about the GH2, I've got to agree 100%. Crippling the VG10 only makes sense if an uncrippled pro division nxcam was coming soon. Now I can buy a gh2 with a short zoom, which is what I use on the vg10 (1855), for half the price.

Unless you hate using a still camera form factor, which I don't, I just can't see buying a vg10 from this point forward.

However, IMHO Sony has a winner in the NEX-5 because it gives all the lens options and has a wonderful Focus Assist. If you like 720p that's not AVCHD -- for native editing on a Mac -- then the NEX-3 has all the critical parts of the vg10. Both of these are cheap, and being discounted.

Bottom-line my VG-10 book is being rewritten to be a NEX family Ebook. It will focus mostly on the 3 and 5, but with some stuff that's not in the VG10 manual. The lens, Sooting Guide, and editing Chapters are obviously for all NEX cameras.

By the way, I put the NEX-5 on a camcorder pistol grip and it IS a camcorder. My right hand is free to adjust all the controls on the back, top, and lens. Very stable! I'm glad I bought the grip in Japan for my hi8 camera two decades ago. If only Sony still put LANC on every camcorder.

Yeah, RED we know about and the AF100 is just about here now. However, as far as the comparables in the market, ($3K or less APSC camera) it seems that only the VG10 is the only one that can record for longer than 20min without overheating.

Sony MUST be doing something soon to answer the gap between VG10 and new NXCAM super 35mm.

My only guess is the rumored A77? (even that prolly wont really fit the bill)

I think just adding focus assist alone to the existing VG10 will make it WAY more attractive to the "pro" crowd.

One thing. I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?

Sony MUST have something planned for CES. I have such a hard time believing they would allow their competition to own the APSC sensor $2-$3K market so easily.

CT

I'd expect at least an "incremental" upgrade of the VG10 - think "HC7-HC9". I'm already seeing the VG10's coming up barely used and selling around the $1600 price point, so to expect Sony to drop the price isn't out of line - they are already agressively discounting on certain of the latest SLR/SLT models, the ones that aren't quite as popular.

The heat issue is a BIG one IMO, it's one of the downsides in the A33/A55 lineup (also using the NEX sensor or a variation thereof, IIRC), as it will force shorter clips that any artificial limit. To me this is the one "gotcha" with many of the "dual purpose" cameras - short clip times... but for what they DO, they have a place in one's kit.

I did a little looking around for GH2's, didn't see anything "half the price" of the VG10... a little cheaper maybe, but I'm sorta waiting for enough A55's to come into the market for a good deal on a used one... that's WAY less than half the VG10 price, and not much more than the NEX5's, although those are coming up fairly reasonable... tempting, but just a bit "odd" in form factor IMO, although I've got a pistol grip around here SOMEWHERE... HMMMMM....

He meant the GH2 with the standard lens. That's $1,000 and the version without the lens is $900 although there are a lot of people getting the body for only $630 either because of their company or they are unfairly using some of the companies that were posted online. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic were to start an investigation into this matter but on the other hand, if it wasn't for the $630, some of those people might have looked elsewhere such as the people who are bragging online that they got it for that price. A lot of them will also be posting videos online and that's more advertising for Panasonic. Panasonic may or may not get some people in trouble but they probably will make it much harder to get the discount from now on.

I did a little looking around for GH2's, didn't see anything "half the price" of the VG10.

Standard GH2 kit from B&H: $999
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Digital Camera W/14-42mm DMC-GH2K-K B&H

Standard VG10 kit from B&H $1998:
Sony NEX-VG10 Interchangeable Lens Handycam Camcorder NEX-VG10

Yes the lenses are different GH2:14-42mm vs VG10 18-200mm.

But if you want to buy a large sensor box and put your own lenses on it, those are the basic packages. I haven't seen the GH2 body only since the early days of Amazon that was later withdrawn so didn't even include that.

I bought the GH2 body only from my local authorized dealer and a lot of people bought it body only from Panasonic Direct very recently.

That's good news. Does it record longer than 20 minutes without overheating?

If your talking about the GH2, I'd suspect it would be like the GH1 and have absolutely no heating issues compared to your average DSLR. I think the VG10 doesn't have issues either. I've been using my GH1 extensively like a camcorder for a year and a half now and again never had a heating issue and lots of other people have never had heating issue as well. There's also no time limit on non European units. For the European units, there's 30 minute limits which is definitely not perfect but still more time than any DSLR except for the VG10.

This is like when the 7D first came out, a whole bunch of people started complaining that if you shoot in 720 60p for a long time, you'd get severe heating issues. The heating issues are less if you shoot in 1080 24p. It just seam like Sony is getting more "heat" over the issue. Either way I can care less since I do a lot of event shooting and neither the A55 or 7D/60D would benefit me.

I used to want the VG10 badly but hearing about it's lack of serious features compared to everybody else was a big turn off for me. I almost considered it the re-incarnation of my HC1 since when that thing was first released, it was truly remarkable compared to a lot of what was out there but even though the VG10 is in a camcorder body, it doesn't have the type of praise the HC1 used to have. For sure if Sony added more features, it would have been hard to get when it first got released because a lot more people would have been snatching it up.

Can any VG10 owners confirm this:

"I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?"

CT

I'd love to get a GH2 for $600... probably snap it up "just because" - but the pricing I'm seeing with a 14-140 lens that's somewhat comparable to the VG10 is $1500, about a 25% discount, and with prices on the VG10 already soft... Although I'd probably go for the GH2 based on some of the things I'm reading about it, aside from the fact that I've got plenty of Sony batteries and such already! If I stumble upon a lightly used VG10 at the right price, it would better integrate with my other gear.

Standard GH2 kit from B&H: $999
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Digital Camera W/14-42mm DMC-GH2K-K B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/736365-REG/Panasonic_DMC_GH2K_K_Lumix_DMC_GH2_Digital_Camera.html)

Standard VG10 kit from B&H $1998:
Sony NEX-VG10 Interchangeable Lens Handycam Camcorder NEX-VG10 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/717535-REG/Sony_NEX_VG10_NEX_VG10_Interchangeable_Lens_Handycam.html)

Yes the lenses are different GH2:14-42mm vs VG10 18-200mm.

That's the advantage of the gh2. The 18200 totally unbalanced the tiny vg10. It becomes very front heavy and rolls to the left, just like the ex1. So you need to buy the $2000 camcorder plus the 1855 whereas with the gh2 you can just get the base kit for $1000. That's a real big savings. Next down is as the NEX-5 that's about half the gh2.

The vg10 would be more attractive as a body only, an A-mount only, or a 1855 only package. But I wouldn't walk up to a Sony person at CES and suggest that because no matter how badly it's selling they rarely make changes once something's out. They'll wait for the next generation. Remember, Sony negotiated a price for X units that likely have already been built by an outside factory.

The NEX-7 isn't going to help vg10 sales either. But, it's real enemy is the gh2. I find it sad that had Sony not crippled the vg10 and priced it at from $1000 to $1600, it could have been a winner. But, let's face it -- Sony didn't lose the HDTV market to Samsung and Vizeo AND LOSE MONEY FOR THREE YEARS by working hard to satisfy customers.

Of course, nothing stops them from releasing another firmware that adds in the missing features. And, nothing stops them from releasing a version with the 1855.

Using the larger battery balances the VG10 out nicely and offsets the weight of the lens. My XH-A1 has a similar sideways lean to it. In fact I think I've yet to work with a camera that doesn't want to go slightly to one side.

Plus it's worth pointing out that the 14-42 for the GH2 has got a lot of bad press. My brother just bought a GH2 and the first thing he did was take the kit lens off and replace it with something decent.

If were just going on "value for money" you should also factor in that the VG10 comes packaged with a free copy of VEGAS 10.

I'll try to borrow his cam and shoot some side by side test footage over Christmas, but in all honesty the relentless VG10 bashing on this forum is starting to depress me.

I'm not bashing the 10, but I have moved material on it to an Appendix in my book on the NEX FAMILY. The reason the 10 gets bashed is its price given what is missing. It is a wonderful product.

But, once you use focus assist on the NEX-5 you get really pissed at Sony. Why is it missing on the 10?

And why is it so EZ to use the dials on the back and top of the NEX while the 10 has 9 buttons that have no unique feel? Sony could have put some in front by the lens. But it was cheaper to crowd them into one circuit board. And, since they saved money doing this, why price a consumer product at $2000.

I think the bashing is not the camcorder, but Sony. Putting the focus assist firmware that was already in the other cameras would have cost nothing! And, why did they not see how bad the menu system worked before all cameras were released? You should read the interviews with the NEX designers. They talk like a camera was a perfume bottle. It's all about making a design statement. The engineers are there to simply put the guts inside the package. It seems no one with real photography experience actually checks the design for usability. I'm sure they thought the 9 buttons were cute! And, the menus were fashionable. And, of course making a pink camera was a way to get girls to buy.


So my feeling is that the best choice is to get maximum video quality at the cheapest price. I can do that with the NEX-5 now selling with the 16mm lens for $900.

PS: of course the battery helps the front back balance, but it makes the twisting even worse. There was a reason film cameras had a grip CENTERED UNDER THE CAMERA. Camcorders have been badly designed IMHO for the last several decades.

Amazingly, by laying a NEX-5 in the palm of my left hand it balances perfectly. The back of my palm is under the camera giving support to keep it horizontal. The front of my palm is under the lens, giving it front to back stability.

Now my right hand is free to use the controls on the back and top. Controls I can glance down and SEE. I can reach forward to focus and zoom.

This works for shooting video better than the 10's "camcorder" design.

Bottom line, a camcorder design only works when the controls are made distinct so you can find them by feel AND when they are located in logical places. For example, focus controls should be close to the lens. White balance and gain can be on the side. Sony calling the 10 a camcorder doesn't make it a good camcorder.

PS2: when the NEX came out there were negative comments of the lenses. For video, these tiny imperfections will never be seen. A photograph has about 12 megapixels. Video has 2. Photographers love to nit pick about lenses. The good point about all these cameras is we can change the lens after we buy.

I'd love to see Sony sell body only or body with the A-mount adaptor.

Sorry Steve,

Your comment has always been fair, balanced and informative. I've learned a lot from reading your posts. I should have thought more carefully about how I worded my frustrations, which were actually directed towards non-owners who criticize the camera based solely on hearsay and third party opinion. Like you say, it is a great bit of kit. Having said that I agree that some of SONY's omissions have been odd and can understand that there are legitimate grounds for serious criticism of the company's handling of the release. We can only hope that they take a leaf out of Canon's book and at least give us some of what we're asking for with the next firmware update.

Form factor was particularly important for me - I've only ever worked with moving images and didn't want to learn an entirely new system from the ground up, plus I wanted something that could allow me to pass for a tourist/not intimidate people unused to being interviewed (I've done a fair bit of work with young people with severe educational and behavioral difficulties). A small, potentially self contained unit that shot decent footage without a lot of support grip was a must. And particularly given the number of one time events I was involved with I also needed be certain that my camera wouldn't overheat/ run up against an arbitrary record time limit at a vital moment and could function as a reliable B-cam. Lastly, I needed something with beautiful shallow DoF to shoot shorts with a more traditionally filmic feel than my XH-A1 or HDR-HC7 could provide.

I know I made the right choice for me, and am still convinced of that. It was a substantial purchase though, particularly given the dicey economic times we're currently in, and I have found it a bit dispiriting on the forum lately as I march uncertainly towards the end of our tax year.

Can't argue with the a-mount bundle idea. As soon as I get some work in in the new year my first purchase priorities are the a- mount adaptor, the 50mm and 35mm DT lenses and a 7inch Lilliput monitor for the cold shoe...

Many thanks again for your detailed, well argued and well mannered post. I shall endeavor to take a leaf out of your book in future.

Henry

There has been from day one endless negative buzz which I too have fought against. I 'm used to this. We've already learned there are negative posts on the GH2 that hasn't even shipped.

What was extra frustrating is that many of these comments were based upon Sony's paritially correct announcement.

I say partially because Sony is correct that 1080i60/30PsF will in fact be seen as 1080i60. It will not be seen as 1080p30 by your NLE. So they were correct to say SHOULD be editing this as interlaced video.

Now that they have clarified that it is shooting progressive I see folks posting that you can simply drop these clips in a 1080p30 timeline. That's not true because today NLEs look at the clip and decide how it should be handled. When it sees an interlaced clip it will deinterlace it causing a big loss in vertical resolution. Sony wanted to avoid this error.

There is one NLE that avoids this problem. Vegas from Sony. It's nice they included it, but they misunderstood the American market. Here we chose our NLE years ago. We aren't likely to switch. And, they failed to understand that the Mac is the computer of choice for creative types. And, iMovie and FCP are most used.

In almost every way they seem unable to grasp the USA market -- which is why they leave 24p out. I've worked with Sony here and in Japan, and I have no hope anything will change. You need to understand that like the USA most of the work is done by young kids. The difference is these kids live in Sony dorms, eat at Sony dinning halls, and buy Sony products. They don't travel except to go bar hopping in Tokyo. They don't own a car. They have no idea what a REAL camera is like.

The older execs are even worse because they have 20-30 years in this environment. They have learned the Sony way which they truly believe is more FREE THINKING than the other companies. The problem is that while this may have been true 25 years ago, it's not likely true today.

And, in all companies -- except perhaps JVC -- the really old execs live in a mindset where Japan is still in the late 1980s and they don't need to listen to anything from the Sony folks in the USA.

So I simply decided to write about how to get the most from what they have given us.

In reading all this talk on the VG10 marketing "niche",...on overall, one general theme about this camera stands out;

Generally speaking, the ONLY people that will buy this camera are the kind of people that actually understand that this thing BADLY missing focus assist.

"Joe consumer"?... He doesn't want a VG10. He doesn't know enough about video to understand why he should want an APSC camcorder. And, he damn sure doesn't even know that "peaking" even is!

So,..the only people that "would" by a VG10 are people that know the technical benefits of large sensor optics....and this is the exact crowd that expects simple things like "peaking" and "zebras". Duh!

Sony really screwed up on how they crippled the VG10. The camera is simply too "smart" and expensive for the typical consumer, yet too "dumb" for a pro or semi-pro....and that's just not necessary.

It misses on BOTH TARGETS!

C'mon Sony,...fix this thing with peaking and zebra firmware updates. Jeesh!...it's NOT going to eat into your ENG Cam market!

CT

I should have thought more carefully about how I worded my frustrations, which were actually directed towards non-owners who criticize the camera based solely on hearsay and third party opinion. Like you say, it is a great bit of kit. Having said that I agree that some of SONY's omissions have been odd and can understand that there are legitimate grounds for serious criticism of the company's handling of the release. We can only hope that they take a leaf out of Canon's book and at least give us some of what we're asking for with the next firmware update.

That's slightly contradictory. I see that a lot of it is about features that were omitted. For me, I'm not basing it for the sake of it. I did the same thing when the GH1 came out even though I bought it. The codec wasn't that great and Panasonic decided to put 24p within 60i which I viewed as a big mistake. I've even argued against people who viewed that as no big deal. The fact of the matter is that a lot of consumers doesn't know that you need something like NeoScene to fix that. Even the GH2 has some issues that I mentioned elsewhere like the menu for example.

I really do agree that some of them are like me that wanted to like the VG10 because it's shaped like a camcorder but are frustrated that it's missing features that they really need like something as simple as focus assist, 24p, audio gain control, or my specialty, 720 60p (although I don't think the chip can handle 60p). Theirs no denying that had Sony put extra features and even lower the price a little, they'd be less bashing and some of those people criticising it would have been selling their DSLRs to own one.



With all that said, I personally wouldn't mind shooting an event with a VG10 just to see how it would be like, I figure if I can get used to shooting with the GH1, than it might not take me long to get used to shooting with the VG10. I just wished it more features.

You all might enjoy these stories on how the NEX was designed.


Sony Global - Sony Design - Activity - Feature Design (http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/activity/product/a_nex/01.html)

Sony Global - Sony Design - Activity - Feature Design (http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/activity/product/make_believe/01.html)

Sony Global - Sony Design - Activity - Feature Design (http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/activity/product/color_pink/01.html)

The phrase "eager to explore color" was particularly good. I feel very sorry for the Engineers who had to work round these people and actually build the camera. They sound just like the worst kind of "creative" Producer!

I should have thought more carefully about how I worded my frustrations, which were actually directed towards non-owners who criticize the camera based solely on hearsay and third party opinion.

The DNA of DVInfo is about sharing information. Owning a piece of kit isn't a requirement to post or express an opinion/thought on DVInfo. THere's plenty of good advice given from non-kit owners.

Frankly, of all places, this thread (a discussion on a "New Pro Model" of the VG10) is exactly where non-owners can contribute. Why people didn't/won't buy the VG10 is equally and perhaps more important than a feature list from kit owners.

The thinking that only kit owners have valid opinions is incorrect. In fact, it's the same ingrown thinking that resulted in the poor product management of the VG10. By it's nature, you can depend on errors from non-kit owners just like you can depend on lack of knowledge on competitive cameras by VG10 owners. The contribution as a kit owner is to politely and professionally correct the wrong information. Conversely, chest beating about the VG10 is sure to draw correction from non-kit owners. That also should be done politely and professionally.

This is a community. It's so much more pleasant when people have discussions and trade thoughts like friends talking around the water cooler or social event. Frankly, there's no reason not to be as polite here to mis-information or disagreement than you would face to face. And, making blanket general statements about "them" isn't helpful either.

Sorry Paulo and Les,

I didn't mean to imply non-owners didn't have the right to comment, or that the VG10 was a perfect product.

Henry

No problem. Your insight as a VG10 owner has been valuable to me in assessing the VG10 as a B-Camera. I failed to mention it but that's a very clear and important role you have here on DVInfo.

Many thanks Les,

I'll see if I can get that side by side test up in the next few days.

Henry

Can any VG10 owners confirm this:

"I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?"

CT

It does output live via HDMI but the EVF and LCD shut down, leaving you to hook up an external monitor.

Oh wow!,...that is an AWESOME feature!

Shutting down the ability to monitor your shooting while attached to an external recorder is brilliant!!!!!!!!

I mean seriously folks,...you KNOW that Sony engineers were giggling and laughing their butts off when that code was programmed into the firmware. The engineers were prolly all having drinks that night at happy hour joking about the stupidity of that. (the Sony "PMW" group down the hall prolly demanded it.)

I mean c'mon Sony,...you guys are better than this. How do you put that feature/function on the market with a straight face?

Why not insert a text on the display that reads "HDMI connected - Screen & viewfinder disabled so as to not threaten our pro-market."

I'm actually embarrassed for Sony.

CT :-(

(I'm still a loyal Sony fan,...but stuff like this makes me question myself)

My VG10 book publisher tried very hard to reach the camcorder PR woman last spring with NO results.

I'm having no luck now.

Yet, the PR person for the PRO division responded in an hour.

I can't decide if this is a very bad employee, its something about the the Consumer group, or Sony simply isn't interested in THE VG10 or THIS VG10.

I also noticed that in some countries the VG10 is still listed as a 1080ii product.

Now if you go to the Sony Japan website, the VG10 is a really big deal! Tons of wonderful pictures. So Sony Japan is certainly pushing it.