I was wondering if anyone out there has any experience with flying an R/C Helicopter with a small POV camera attached. It can be GoPro, Contour, or even a Flip. I am just looking for specific advice on models of helicopters, or support equipment.

I have seen many videos of people doing this, but the details on their equipment is always sketchy and hard to acquire.

Also, I am not talking a big expensive rig like the ones that fly 5D/7D cameras with a gyro stabilizer head.

Any ideas?

People here don't have experience because it's illegal. If you're thinking of acquiring footage for compensation using RC helicopters, you can't. Most of the posters here are professionals.

I have used an rc heli with a gopro..worked great...for more info check out helifreak.com

People here don't have experience because it's illegal. If you're thinking of acquiring footage for compensation using RC helicopters, you can't. Most of the posters here are professionals.

That's not really true. It is grey area at best.

OP: Here is my setup, in this case lifting a HD170 but also can lift 7D etc..

YouTube - Heavy Lifting Custom Quadrotor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhH8h9blCFU)

Mine is built around UAVX uavp-mods - Project Hosting on Google Code (http://code.google.com/p/uavp-mods/)

But you can use an off the shelf quad and pretty easily lift a GoPro. Quads are a bit easier to fly than traditional CP helis. You will still crash alot though at first, and it is hard to get good results on small platforms. You might cut your fingers off or put out an eye too.

People here don't have experience because it's illegal. If you're thinking of acquiring footage for compensation using RC helicopters, you can't. Most of the posters here are professionals.

I don't understand, what exactly is it about using an RC Helicopter for footage that makes it illegal?



Bob Diaz

People here don't have experience because it's illegal. If you're thinking of acquiring footage for compensation using RC helicopters, you can't. Most of the posters here are professionals.

Maybe in your neck of the woods but here in the CONUS it's not illegal at all. Just have to have permits and permissions worked out. There's about half a dozen companies I know of here and in NY that offer R/C heli video services. They have almost as much red tape to go through as a full size heli or plane used as a camera platform.

I have been out of it for a few years and I know the technology has changed but we used to use X-Cell gas (not glowfuel) helis. They could fly for 30 minutes with ease and were big enough to carry any DSLR or small camcorder like a HMC40 with a pan/tilt rig and video transmitter. Very smooth and reliable.

The last guy I saw which was about a year ago used a 90-sized electric. I think it was a Mikado. He was carrying an HVX200 on a pan/tilt rig and said he was getting about 7 min flights.

problem with most heli is vibration because CMOS cameras suffer a lot (rolling shutter). CCD camera are a lot better bust more difficult to find.
The electric models are better on that point, but they fly less time and lift less weight.
the number of wings make also a difference , more wings , less vibration, but usually all small heli are two wings on the propeller.
you also beeter have to get a good insurance (and) or a good pilot because crashed heli (on car, people or even on grass) cost the hell to fix.
for the weight of a gopro, you got cheaper/better solution like the draganfly that is more safe to pilot and cost less.

I expect some of the argument about what is legal/illegal is the frequencies the RC equipment is operating on. For example as a HAM I would be allowed to use HAM frequencies for my RC gear but could not use them for commercial endeavors. With that in mind you must make sure your RC gear is on a frequency coordinated for its purpose AND its location. This is not just a regulatory issue but a safety one as well. You do NOT want another signal causing operation issues with a potentially lethal remotely controlled instrument near soft people-like targets.

Using the helicopter itself shouldn't be a problem as long as there are no statutes against it and the appropriate permits and safety protocols are in place.

There was a major shift in the rc world a few years ago to 2.4ghz so there isn't nearly as big of an issue of frequency contamination as there used to be.

Good to know. I've not done anything RC since the days when the equipment was below 100mhz.

And I thought I'd been flying for a long time! Ha ha!
Part of the reason I got out was the switch over. I was already on the fence since my wife and I started down the baby path. I had a lot of helis and planes. Would have cost a fortune to switch them over so I figured it was as good a time as any!

Here an interesting link for learning more...
http://www.rchelisite.com/using_rc_helicopters_for_aerial_photography_and_videography.php


If I was to get back into helis for video, this would be a good choice...
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_382_718/products_id/185621/n/Align-T-Rex-700E-3G-Flybarless-Helicopter-Super-Combo-Kit-w-Motor-4-Servos-CF-Blades

But, with radio and batteries, probably looking at another $1500 and then you have to buy the camera mount side of the game. I'd imagine $5k would be a reasonable chunk to spend for a properly setup heli.

Thanks to everyone for their responses! I have learned alot and have much more research to do. But at least now I am on the right track.

Vibration is not THAT big of a deal.

Here is HD170 (CMOS) HARD mounted to my quadrotor. No gimbal, no vibration isolation rubber or anything. It is literally velcro'd to the lipo battery. It would be receiving every single vibration the frame is transmitting. Taking your time in setup and prop balancing and your fine (on a multirotor)

YouTube - Heavy Lifter HD170 testing - Low Power "Landing" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PQ1r1JNL_s)

I was testing total power, so I let it run out of power at the end.

2.4GHZ yes for the radio, but you can still run into issues with downlink frequencies. For instance video down on 900mhz, telemetry on? 900 or 1.2ghz.

As for the vibration, the 4 rotors shouldn't be an issue due to the smaller rotating mass. The vibration is at a much higher frequency that would be picked up by the cameras. Looks like the breeze pushed it around a bit though.

With a traditional heli, bigger is better but the key is to success with any sized heli is to have it properly built and balanced. Even my 60-sized glow fuel helis had little to no vibration as they were built for competitions.

With the smaller helis, i dont think the quality of the kits is at the level to make them vibration free. Most use plastic parts in the driveline and the tolerances just aren't tight enough. Plus they do get knocked around by the wind and in my opinion aren't good platforms for cameras because of these issues. Even with a small camera like a Gopro or contour, I'd go for the biggest platform you can afford if you want to make professional-looking videos.
If thats not the goal, get whatever and have a blast! I do it the inexpensive way too! It's a lot of fun!

I like the idea of the four rotor system. It looks fairly stable.
As far as making it look professional, I will do the best I can with my budget, which is small. But it is an area I would like to try out, maybe with a small electric rig, and a GoPro at first, and see how big and bad I want to go.

If you do eventually get into a traditional heli, please get a computer simulator and find a local club and ask who the best heli pilot is and do whatever you have to do to get that person to train you. You will save a lot of time and money and will progress much faster than going it alone.

in complete agreement with getting a sim package first. You'll save yourself a LOT of money in the long run. Helicopters are wonderful fun when you master them, and a huge money pit until you reach that point.
A computer sim program is a cheap investment up front.
An option I started exploring too late in the fall was using a traction kite and suspending a GoPro from the flying harness.
It worked surprisingly well. The kite I used is an 11 foot parafoil four line, more than enough lift to pull me off the ground in a 20 mph wind, so camera weight is certainly no issue. It's VERY stable in flight, and highly controllable. Also a lot cheaper than even a pretty basic .60 size heli. As soon as the deep-freeze ends, I plan on experimenting with that platform a lot more

Now that's a cool idea! Oddly my boys got into kites over the summer and of course I found a site that sells insanely large ones but couldn't justify getting one as the boys lost interest. (they are all under 5 so it's to be expected!)

Look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Wayne could u post anything?

One option I started exploring too late in the fall was using a traction kite and suspending a GoPro from the flying harness.


That is a fantastic idea. I never thought of that. Can you post your findings so we can check it out? Also, where did you find those kites?

there are a huge number of parafoil and traction kite manufacturers. Here's one company I've used;
Dual Line Parafoil Sport Kites at WindPower Sports Kite Store (http://www.windpowersports.com/kites/stunt/parafoil.html)
There are a bunch of shops on the Oregon coast that design and build their own variations; Lincoln City is sort of the centre of the universe for kites, it seems. if you google traction kites, or parafoil kites, you'll almost certainly find a source for them close to wherever you live.

You don't want to get anything too large; the 11 ft. that I have now was a big step up from several smaller kites; This thing has serious lift. you need 400 lb. test spectra lines (a kevlar like material) to fly it, and it will pick up a 170 lb man, easily in a 25 mph wind.

single line Parafoils around 4 ft. can be had at Toy's r Us, or places like that, for under $30. They have no spars, so they're really compact and the single line versions are designed to be very stable in flight. they go straight up, stabilize and sit nice and flat in flight.

Going into multi-line kites gives you manoueverability; two line gives you up/down, left/right steerage within the wind envelope ( if the winds at your back, usually a 30 degree deflection left and right).

Four line kites are a bit tougher to master, and cost more, but they are significantly more manoueverable. Up/down. left/right, forward (upwind) and back (downwind), again within about a 60 degree wind envelope.

You can get into a pretty decent 2 line parafoil for under $100. You can spend thousands on them, but for what I'm trying to do with it, a $25 single line with a cotrollable harness should work out...the big traction kite's a bit too much. I've flown R/C helicopters for years, and my wife and I used to fly team kites
( precision pattern formation flying), so I sort of understand what they will do aerodynamically. I'm trying to design a simple, servo controlled hang harness for the GoPro. It's light enough that a couple of mini-servos from one of my crashed heli's, a 2 channel r/c receiver from the same source and a single cell li-poly battery.

I'm using a light aluminum strap, bent in a flattened "U" shape, attached with a rivet hinge on each side so the bottom of the "U" pivots. Attaching a servo to the bottom of the "U", and a servo control rod to the top of the side frame gives me up/down tilt for the camera. The battery is centered uder the camera for weighting, and since the whole thing is pretty light, the servo isn't working very hard to tilt the rig.

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to pan with a servo drive...toying with a few ideas.Of course, with this set-up you need a second pair of hands; someone needs to fly and the other for camera movement via an R/C transmitter.

There are a lot of advantages to a kite vs. a heli...MUCH easier to master, cheaper, less risk if it comes down, etc.

Unlike a heli, the wind is your friend with a kite, although with the modern designs you don't need much more than a breeze to launch ( a parafoil will fly with as little as 2-3 mph). Also, you have a vastly increased lifting ability, and to a point, increasing weight improves flight stability.

the negatives of course are there too; you're at the mercy of the wind and your angles are limited, but....I think it's worth exploring.

Everything's in bit's and pieces right now. I got this bright idea to use carbon fibre rods and small u-joints from an R/C truck axle for hinges, so I'm waiting for parts. As soon as everything arrives, I'll re-assemble it and post some pics if anyone is interested.

Anyone that wants some specific suggestions re: kites, lines, etc. please drop me a PM

Seems someone much smarter than me has been doing this sort of thing for a while

http://www.brooxes.com/newsite/HOME.html

He concentrates much of his efforts on mounting design ( a good thing)...I'm going to explore some of his ideas and adapt them to a flexible platform instead of a rigid frame kite

Rob,

There is quite a bit of information at this site.

Aerial Photography and Video - Page 1 - RunRyder RC Helicopter (http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/f25p1/)

Steve

Showreel for our RC Heli..

Recoil-AirCam ShowReel on Vimeo

Hi Sean, some really nice footage there.

Which heli do you use and what camera. How do you monitor the picture.

So many questions......

Peter

Looks like the camera is the Go Pro HD

The camera is the Go Pro Hero HD.

I think the heli is a Trex 450? (I don't do the flying, that's my pilot Neil)

It's relatively small... we're working on building a bigger rig for a bigger heli...this time to carry a Canon 550D.

It works pretty well with the Go Pro... but the rolling shutter causes a few issues.. but we're getting them ironed out.

We don't monitor at the moment... it's all done by guess work and looking at the footage as soon as the heli is down on a macbook pro.

The next rig will need a live feed though...probably the teradek cube or something similar.

Sean

People here don't have experience because it's illegal. If you're thinking of acquiring footage for compensation using RC helicopters, you can't. Most of the posters here are professionals.

No offense, but RC/POV footage is gaining big momentum these days. It's funny you are in Hawaii. I have a friend who lives on one of your Islands that started out doing wedding videos. He was keeping his head above water, but with so much competition just breaking even. One of his clients asked if a fly over could be done. He was an RC hobbyist on the side. Never put the two together. He tried it and it was a success. It was a huge hit for his wedding gigs. Puts to shame any jib that's for sure. He ran into a real estate mogul and low and behold he now does copter shots for high end properties. Someone selling a multi-million home has no problem paying a few grand for a nice overhead video of their property. Takes him less than 2 hours to cover a house. Easy and basic video editing. He's got a nice niche now making top dollar. No longer does weddings. His total outlay was $2000. Nothing illegal about it. Get your facts straight before you post next time.
EDIT: Of course there are areas where an R/C copter is not allowed. Those who are interested must check their local laws. But for a blanket statement like "it's illegal" is ridiculous. AND uninformed.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/145993-rc-aerials-illegal-says-faa.html
FAA has restricted all RC Helicopter flight in the USA airspace mi6films.com (http://mi6films.com/2011/rc-helicopter-mikrokopter-hexa-helicopter/faa-has-restricted-all-rc-helicopter-flight-in-the-usa-airspace/687/)

I've been experimenting with a T-Rex 450 and a Replay 1080XD camera. Results were ok. Park Flight test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR4N2DcWGJ0)

A big challenge is eliminating vibrations. The main rotor blades is a significant problem, of course. And the tail rotor adds to the complexity. There are more than 60 moving parts on a helicopter and they all have to be performing nicely in concert to get good results.

I did a lot of modifications to get it to what I'd call decent performance.

Then there's that main rotor blade that can do a great deal of harm if it hits anyone.

Also, the helicopter has a tendency to lean to the right, compensating for the tail rotor that's pushing it to the left. It's an unavoidable trait.

With all that in mind, I decided to build a multi-rotor helicopter from scratch. Researched a variety of motors and props, looked at necessary materials and other components.

Advantages of a multi-rotor: There are only four moving parts. The four motors and props. They're easily balanced. I managed to balance the motors so they merely "hum" at high RPMs. This is a lot easier than dealing with the dozens of moving parts of a conventional helicopter where any single small component can go out of spec and cause a vibration problem.

Conventional helicopters expend a significant amount of energy on the tail rotor, just to counteract torque. A multi-rotor directs all of the energy to lifting the load and that's more efficient, translating into either more payload of longer flight duration.

Multi-rotors will hover level. Not a really big deal, but one less thing to mess with.

And the props of a multi-rotor can be shrouded. A huge safety advantage, especially if it's going to be operated near people or property. Doesn't help if it drops from the sky and gives someone a concussion, but at least it won't lacerate someone, too.

I also managed to acquire an OpenPilot CopterControl board -- something that's extremely hard to get. This is the heart of the system and will make the UAV very stable. Here's a demo where someone finally manages to jerk it out of the air with a string. And even with a damaged motor mount, they're still able to get it back into the air: Testing the 3C quaternion filter with CopterControl - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0rRuHUt8jDU)

Someone else here in Hawaii built a 6-rotor heli and posted a demo video. It looks like it's shot from a crane. Rock solid!

Test video using a hexa - OpenPilot Forums (http://forums.openpilot.org/topic/8239-test-video-using-a-hexa/page__p__47034__hl__seismiccwave__fromsearch__1#entry47034)

The OpenPilot CC board is being produced by a group of volunteer engineers. Production is limited and demand is high because it performs remarkably well. And the price is right: About $100 shipped. A commercial product is four times more expensive and performance might not be as good.

Here's a log of what I've been building: Building my first quadcopter. From scratch. - OpenPilot Forums (http://forums.openpilot.org/topic/7680-building-my-first-quadcopter-from-scratch/)

In a few weeks it'll be ready for initial test flights. I'm planning to mount a Canon Vixia. I felt that if I was going to spend money and time trying to get aerial videos, I may as well get a decent camera up there. I've shot other things with the Vixia, including a cooking demo where that camera is intercut with a Sony EX1. I was truly amazed at the quality this little thing gets.

As for whether shooting video from RC helicopters are illegal, here's the straight dope:

===============

Contrary to the blog posted to the Mi6 Film's website that you so kindly provided, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not stopped the use of all unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) being used for a commercial purpose (i.e. other than for pleasure, recreation or sport use by an individual.)

Any person or company wishing to obtain FAA authorization to operate a UAS in the U.S. airspace for a commercial purpose may do so.

For more information: Unmanned Aircraft (UAS) - Questions and Answers (http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/)

Of course, the use of a small radio-controlled model aircraft by an individual for pleasure, recreation or sport does not require FAA approval, provided there is no compensation to the individual for its use.

Kind regards,

R. Lance Nuckolls
Aviation Safety Inspector - Flight Operations
FAA Office of Aviation Safety
Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)
Washington, DC Headquarters

Any person or company wishing to obtain FAA authorization to operate a UAS in the U.S. airspace for a commercial purpose may do so.That's contradicted by this statement in the Unmanned Aircraft (UAS) FAQ Unmanned Aircraft (UAS) - Questions and Answers (http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/)
Can I fly a UAS under a COA or experimental certificate for commercial purposes?
No. Currently, there are no means to obtain an authorization for commercial UAS operations in the NAS. However, manufacturers may apply for an experimental certificate for the purposes of R&D, market survey and crew training.

Translations of the alphabet soup:-
UAS - Unmanned Aircraft System
COA - Certificate of airworthiness
NAS - National air space

Here's more information about this subject:

www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/media/frnotice_uas.pdf

Here is an email from Lance I got just yesterday, 1/3/2012. "Public use" is hobby flying only, without compensation. They are trying to allow commercial use in the future, but as of now in 2012, flying for video purposes other than research and development (with license) is illegal in all US airspace.

Hi Warren:

Given the overwhelming number of requests my office receives concerning
this type of request, I need to direct you to the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft
FAQ website-

Unmanned Aircraft (UAS) - Questions and Answers (http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/)

Bottomline- the FAA is currently only authorizing "public use" (as defined
by United States Code) unmanned aircraft operations and other civil use
unmanned aircraft operations involved in research and development.
Unauthorized use of any aircraft (including unmanned) in the National
Airspace System is subject to U.S. civil penalty.

That said, there is a FAA rulemaking effort underway that is intended to
allow for the use of small unmanned aircraft to be operated commercially,
such as for video shoots, etc. However, that effort may not culminate into
a formal regulation until sometime in 2013. The Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking for public comment is expected to be published in the Federal
Register in April 2012.

R. Lance Nuckolls
Aviation Safety Inspector - Flight Operations
FAA Office of Aviation Safety
Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)

it's a little on the old side

....Issued in Washington, DC on February 6, 2007....

oops - didn't see the last post

Hmmm. How many of the numerous UAS websites offering airborne video abide by these regulations?

I did see one site where the actual "shooting" was essentially free. One suspects the money is made on the site survey and planning part, in an attempt to get around the "operation of the aircraft for money" part.

"How many of the numerous UAS websites offering airborne video abide by these regulations?"

As defined by the FAA: none.

There is also a bunch of people operating small video transmitters without HAM radio licenses. Even the FRS radios sold by Costco violate FCC rules if purchasers don't have the proper licenses to operate them at higher power levels.

The intent of FAA and FCC regulations is to ensure safety and the coordinated use of a shared resource, whether it's the airwaves or airspace.

If an operation keeps a low profile and doesn't do anything that might endanger people or put property at risk, it's not likely to draw the attention of the authorities.

No harm, no foul.

There was a time when freedom was paramount in our society. "Free for all" litigation and an increasingly irrational sense of fear has pretty much reined it in.

The problem is the impossibility of obtaining insurance to cover an illegal commercial activity. If an Ar.Drone plus GoPro plummets out of the sky then it's unlikely to do any major damage but anything larger would be a real danger. Couple that with the difficulty of flying & the problems with reliability of a model helicopter & there is a real recipe for disaster.

Dean and Nigel, you're both right.

As Dean implied, most of us are sick of the Government nit picking every aspect of life and a VERY LARGE percentage will simply ignore this idiotic rule.

The chances of being prosecuted are somewhere between slim and none unless you do something really stupid.

Nigel, as with many things, it's impossible to insure against every issue. You simply have to make a choice, be as responsible in handling it as possible, and take your chances.

In the US it's not so much the illegality of the action that opens you up to litigation, it's the way it's handled.