Hi all,

Does anyone have any idea how to eliminate the graininess in the dark areas in footage shot on an f350?

Even when I am shooting at 35mb/sec (HQ mode) and 0db gain, the bright areas of the pictures look great but there appears to be grain in the darker areas as if the gain is turned on. The grain is not just limited to the black areas, it seems as if it gets increasingly noticeable as the darkness of the area increases.

I'm currently running the latest firmware which, I think, has reduced it a little but not eliminated it completely.

Am I asking too much of my f350??

Which is your 'detail' setting? When it's too high, it tends to emphasise noise.

Some of the Gammas are noisier than others too. There is a noise reduction setting that was introduced via firmware that helps a lot.
It has to be said though that it is a reasonably noisy camera.
Steve

I use the f350 all the time and there is a lot of noise in this camera under low light in the blacks. You could try lowering your blacks and gamma to -3 I think. What Cine setting are you using?

The F350 can produce great images but it's very noisy in the blacks I have noticed.

Cheers

Thanks for the replies.

I have decreased the detail and the blacks, etc to -3 and I am using the standard gamma. My first impressions are that it has reduced noise a little but it is still quite noticeable.

As far as I am aware I am running the latest firmware (1.99) but I was unable to locate the noise reduction feature in the menus. Any clue to where I might find it?

Can't remember where it is in the menus but it's discussed in this thread http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-hd-cinealta/115148-got-new-f350-firmware-4.html

I think I found the piece of the thread that listed the Low Noise feature:

Select "LOW NOISE MODE" on the "CAM CONFIG" page of the "MAINTENANCE"
menu.

However, when I access the appropriate page, the Low Noise option is just not there.

Perhaps I don't have the latest firmware as I believe?

Checking the camera it reads:

AT: 1.54

Package: 1.99

Someone at Sony sent me the 'Package' part about a week ago. I have no idea where to get the 'AT' part.

Hi Leonard,
How are you going with the PDWf350 and the low noise issue?

Cheers

Hi there Simon,

As I said in my last post, I'm not 100% certain that I have actually installed the latest firmware fully as the Low Noise Mode option does not appear in the menu.

I did a shoot yesterday and it appears that the dark areas of the picture are only slightly less noisy than before. This is more likely due to the changes to the settings that I made rather than updates to the firmware.

When I upgraded the firmware it appears that I only changed the 'Package' part. The 'AT' part is still exactly the same. Reading through other posts I'm guessing that the 'AT' part is updated during the very first step of the process and the 'Package' upgrade happens when you hold the menu knob down for 10 seconds or so and select the version you want to upgrade to.

During this first part when I did my upgrade the camera said that it couldn't find the file and then an alarm sounded so I switched it off.

I think it would help if I could locate both parts of the 1.99 firmware.

Leonard

Ok, you need to instal the latest firmware to get the low noise filter, this will help and you will see the difference. I would not go pass 6db of gain on the PDWf350 and even at 6db noise is coming in. I own both the EX1 and the f350 and the EX1 wins hands down for low noise. Other than that the f350 is a great camera in my opinion and produces a good looking image. Hey what lens have you on the thing?

Cheers

denoiser (set it to "1" only) takes a bit of detail away - but its an option for shooting in low light.

You could also set Gain to -3 , but then the camera is less light sensitive ;-(

Uli

I have the AT firmware numbered 1.60 and the noise reduction option is there allright. So you don't have to upgrade is you have 1.60 for A.T. My 'package' is 1.93, but I didn't upgrade to 1.99, because the only differences are these, according to the Sony site :

"ERROR 91-215 no longer appears and the unit no longer hangs under the following conditions:
• The unit is powered ON using a disc formatted with PDW-U1 and a PC.
• An operation (such as disc ejection, disc formatting, standby OFF, recording stop, or clip deletion) is performed 4 hours and 40 minutes after power-ON."

As I have no PC and as my batteries don't last 4 hours, the upgrade is of no use to me.

I did some tests, and as Uli points out, there is a slight reduction in sharpness if you use 'noise reduction 1'. There is also some loss of detail in the blacks. 'Noise reduction 2 does not only cause a further decrease in sharpness, but is also lowers the contrast dramatically and changes your white balance. Especially that last effect is weird, it shouldn't happen. So I would avoid setting '2' in any case, and use setting 1 only when necessary.

unfortunately, Sony don't keep their history intact when a new version comes out

so with 1.99 you won't see the changes that were made in 1.98 or 1.95

There is an archive of old firmware somewhere on the web as I got something from it just 2 months back but I can't find it anywhere now.
Steve

Thanks for pointing that out, Anton. I wasn't even aware that there were intermediate updates between 1.93 and 1.99
Do you have any idea what updates 1.95 and 1.98 improved or corrected?

thanks
Luc

I can't remember, sorry, I deleted them

but I remember that 1.95 had something to do with dual layer

Just to be up-to-date, I downloaded and installed 1.99. There was no update of the AT-firmware, though. It's still 1.60. Is that the most recent one? Can't find it anywhere on Sony's sites. Diagnosis now reads: AT: 1.60 and Package 1.99

Hi all,

After a bit of a detour around the preverbal houses, I am now definitely running the latest firmware. This update to AT 1.70 included the illusive 'Low Noise' setting. I have a shoot tomorrow so I suppose I'll see how well it reduces the graininess of the dark areas.
My other cameras are a DSR500 and a Z1 so I may have some unrealistically high expectations, who knows.

I managed to get the AT 1.70 file from Sony themselves. Not sure how it would sit with them but I am quite happy to pass it on.

Leonard

Hi Leonard,

could you mail it to me? This is my adress: luc (at) dewandel (dot) be. Thanks!
Best of luck with the new settings
Luc

Could you please email it to me too? Same problem here, upgraded and its AT 1.60 PACKAGE 1.99
My email is d.liaos (at) hotmail (dot) com

After updating the firmware and been working with the new settings, I have to say that it has made very little difference to the level of noise in the image. I would say that even with the new 'Low Noise' setting, it looks as if I am shooting with at least 6db of gain.

Anyone have any other ideas?

What are you comparing the camera too and what monitor are you using? LCD monitors are notorious for having noisy dark area. The F335 (54db) etc does have about 9db more noise than a DSR-500 (64db), most HD camcorders are noisier than SD cameras, it is a fact of life when you have greater and greater numbers of pixels, each pixel produces noise, the more you have the more noise there tends to be. Even some of the very latest HD camcorders struggle to achieve the same noise figure as a DSR-500.

Hi there Alister,

I am using a Datavideo TLM 700 HD monitor over HDSDI and I agree that perhaps the monitor makes the image look somewhat noisier than, perhaps, it really is. Similarly, I appreciate that the more pixels there are the more noise there will be, but when even the editor comments on the level of grain on a brown jacket in an otherwise perfectly brightly lit interview shot, my feeling is that something is not as good as it could be.

I've a suspicion that the answer lies in the 'PAINT' settings, although even re-setting the camera back to its factory default doesn't seem to help that much.

The other possibility is that there is a fault with the camera. It would help if I could see some stills of f350 images to see if I'm being a bit too critical. If I can work out how to do it, I will try and post some images of the results I am getting.

Leonard

I think you need to be prepared to face the fact that at 54db the F3** cameras are noisy compared to most other pro HD cameras and especially SD cameras. Compared to a DSR-500 it is nearly 3 times noisier. Also the large size of the grain structure tends to make it look more visible. An EX1 will look less noisy than an F3**.

You can fiddle around with the paint settings and might make some very small differences. Increasing the detail frequency will help as will reducing the detail level. But the noise is not going to go away.

It is a 6 year old design and HD sensors have improved dramatically since then.

This is a screenshot form a clip made with the PDW-F350, at -3dB

What lens are you using Luc? Lots of CA. Looks like an SD lens or Canon KH20.

You might want to consider raising the detail frequency to reduce the thick black detail correction edges that are pretty typical of a F3**

Is it just that shot or is the image sharper on the left than the right? Could be the collimation is out on the lens. The CA is worse on the right than the left too.

Hi Alister,

the lens is the KH10e x 3,6 IRSE SX12, at it's widest angle, which is not the sharpest or best position, especially in the corners.
Sorry for my ignorance (my business is stills photography, in video I'm just an amateur) , but what do you mean by 'collimation'? Not the flange back adjustment, I presume, because that is perfect.

I'll certainly give it a try raising the detail frequency to reduce the detail correction edges. Any idea by how much? It's set to '0' no.

Try +40 and see if that helps reduce those strong thick black edges.

Collimation would be a mechanical alignment of the lens, not something the user can do. It might just be the windows in the tram, hard to tell from a single shot.

OK, I'll give that a try. Detail itself is set to '2'.

The CA is quite present, even extremely so in the cars in the upper right corner. But as I said, that's at full wide angle and aperture almost fully open. Even zooming in slightly makes the CA go away. My 16-35 canon stills lens has the same problem when used on my full frame 5D mkII. In fact, most Canon wide-angles have as far as my experience goes.

I understand the KH10e x 3,6 is one of Canon's better lenses, and when I compared it to a Fujinon, it shure came out the best of the two...

Edit: added testshot, full tele, f8, detail frequency +40, gain -3dB,... looks better.