Unfortunately in some parts of the world, there is no concept of win-win. From their viewpoint, there is a winner and a loser in a business deal
Funny you should use that expression Jim because last November when I was pressed by a "salesman" for a deal I smilingly but seriously told him I ran a professional service not a bazaar.

But surely you do tell the insurance guy what level and type of insurance you want, and the chef what to cook.

The photographer which photographs in what type of album at what size with what types of filters.

This thread is about a miscommunication. The service provider thought that the client would read the contract, the client thought that 10 hours of coverage meant 10 hours of video.

I tell the Chef what to cook, I don't sit next to him while he cooks it and tell him what to do.

Chris, sorry for the mess you got into. My video and photo guy had a ball at our wedding and loved the food, which we were happy to serve to them while they took a break. Neither had ever shot an Indian wedding. And I didn't expect them to be on their feet capturing every single second of the day. I think there's definitely a difference shooting a western wedding. For an Indian wedding, imagine how hard it would be to put a 10-15 hour video, which covers days of celebrations, into a one or two hour DVD. The expectations are different when you have one evening of celebrations versus days of it.

I think its fair to say that not everyone is aware of what it takes to put together a professional looking end product. What you guys do is phenomenal. I aspire to have my work like yours. I will get that opportunity real soon and look forward to it. I'm trying to tap the Indian market in my area because its my comfort zone for now, and if I could put together even half of what you all do in my community, people would be blown away.

Hi Raji

I actually have done a few Indian receptions and no problems at all!! (I LOVE Indian food too!!!) I actually have one coming up on 29th and the groom already knows that us Westerner's don't shoot 6 hours of video for a 6 hour reception so it will be fine.

Indian weddings here are usually just the reception as the couple "go home" to India for the traditional 2 or 3 day ceremony and employ locals to do both stills and video for that.

It only seems to be Middle Eastern couples that have the strange reception requirements and the strange way of doing business!!!

Chris

This is a simple miscommunication based on cultural differences. No-one reads contracts.

There seems a wodespread consensus that wanting a 3-4 hour video is a strange and unreasonable expectation. But it only seems that way to people familiar with modern wedding video.

A "normal" couple shopping for a wedding video may reasonably expect: a love story video, a same day video, a highlights video, a short-form video, and a long form video

and we all think the desire for 5 videos is completely reasonable, and shows sophistication and good taste.

Kevin:

I dont know what all has transpired since November, but I would provide them the entire production on portable hard drive at no charge now, or in the future if you are still working on this. It would be a good faith gesture and they can pursue the editing with someone else if they wish.

Early on in this thread Chris had said not to provide the raw footage, he should have elaborated on this as I see no reason not too. For a $40 portable HD charge, I offer the complete production, vegs, raw video, etc. to all my clients. And since I have quit archiving any wedding productions, it is then up to the client to keep the data.

Jeff

Jeff, are you only charging $40 to give the couple the raw footage and project files on HD?

If so, I would suggest charging more. Just because the hard drive only costs you $40 doesn't mean you should only charge the client $40. It takes you time to purchase the hard drive, time to put the footage on the hard drive, time to deliver it or have the couple come by and pick it up. Never mind the fact that you're delivering to the couple a product that is surely worth more to them than $40.

We offer a similar product/service but we charge $650 for it. In this video business it's already hard enough to get paid appropriately without giving things away at cost. Anyways, I would just reconsider charging more. Don't sell yourself short.

In my days of tape I started having storage problems so I used to give the couple the original tapes as a "backup" Most people had a miniDV camcorder so they could play raw footage too. My thinking here was that most couples have a good 40 years on me so when I'm pushing up daisies they will still be around and have some sort of backup if their DVD became damaged.

Shooting HD now onto card means that most client's don't have the CPU power to play AVCHD raw footage anyway so that would mean that you might have to transcode this down to SD so they could actually use it on a normal computer.

Wouldn't it just be easier to give them a "backup DVD" of the MPEG2 files that you use to make the DVD so they have "edited" raw footage..it seems a bit of an overkill to provide even the project files!!!

With Kevin's dilemma...try to finalise the issue Kevin and move on!! I think we all will have an unreasonable bride (or bridezilla) at some stage so do the best you can to satisfy her (although you probably never will make her happy (they are like that) It's water under the bridge!! Enjoy your next set of weddings and forget this one ever existed!!

Chris

Travis:

My wedding packages are kind of expensive for the area (not high end, just expensive) starting at $2,400 USD and usually over $3K, so I dont want to push it too far.

Chris:

I just move the whole project directory over to the portable hard drive. They literally get everything including the PSD files for the artwork, whatever has been touched. The only exception is when it wont fit on the portable hard drives I have at the time (leaving 20GB of overhead free space, just in case).

Probably none of my clients have the software or hardware to do anything with this stuff. But in 20 or 30 years when the DVDs are toast, and so am I, they may have something to work with. If I keep it, everyone has lost for sure.

If I were providing pressed DVDs, I wouldnt worry so much. But if these burned DVDs only last 10 years, even if it's because of improper storage, the whole video project is a total loss.

We just delivered what we thought was quite a good wedding video to some clients, but they have come back with a long list of complaints / changes. It's so frustrating because we spent way more time editing their video than other clients' videos due to problems with the ceremony


Now I'm in a similar boat as Kevin, although by now he's probably resolved his issues... My product includes a short 25 to 30 minute main edit which I feel is edited to that "cinematic" style. Another disc is then included which has the entire ceremony (readings and such), more dancing form the reception, and whatever else that just didn't seem to fit with the story of the main edit.

My contract states that the client has one week to get back with me with any sorta issues, and that I also have creative control.

Three weeks ago I delivered what I thought to be a well polished edit to a couple. After about a week or so I asked them if they had watched it, they said not yet... I waited an additional 2 more weeks without any word. It wasn't until last night that I had to clear out their files to create more room on my hard drives.
Surely (because I must be unlucky) I received a very long email today about how unsatisfied they were with the product. At this point there is nothing I can do.... Their raw files are gone and all I have saved were the files to create more DVD's.

It seems that some couples book me without knowing what they are really getting (even though I clearly tell them when I meet them, plus provided most of them with a DVD of my latest wedding). I feel that I'm providing them with a great edit that tells the story of their day, included with little details such as intro cast, ending credits, film-score soundtrack, and many hours of post production.

There seems to be two types of videogs in my area... those who create an artistic video of the couples day, and those who press record, leave, eat, and then come back to press stop. It just seems like some couples aren't ready for the first option that I listed...

As I wrap up this post, I originally wanted to turn this into a question for those who produce the same product as my self. However, I'm more inclined to leave this as a rant.. It seems sometimes the safer way is to just include 10 hours of video compressed onto a DVD, one camera in every corner of the room. Not worry about the things we care about as a professional... Just to include as much as you can without consideration to the story line or quality...

Steve

Hey Steve

I do feel for you!! I had the complete opposite last year where an ethnic bride wanted CCTV style coverage for 6 hours non-stop!!!

I honestly don't think that most brides are ready for cinematic/creative video (and never will be!!) Most seem to want you to make sure you cover the essentials and as long as you do that they are happy!!!

That's why I shoot in documentary style...not 10 hours with an unmanned camera but usually around 2- 2.5 hours of footage edited down to just over an hour. Want some creative stuff??? Just circle the bride and groom at the photoshoot and slow down the footage and they are over the moon..yeah, I know it's real corny and done many times before but it keeps clients happy!!

If your contract states that they have one week to contact you for changes then you are covered...however from the sound of things you did a really polished job and they didn't appreciate it..and whatever you change (if you still had the footage) still wouldn't be good enough!!

Chris

Given how we love video, it can be a mental hurdle to do something simply. We want bells and whistles and a video that makes our clients look like movie stars.

How many of us stop to ask what the client is expecting? If the client wants 8 hours of video, I'm happy to provide it to them. We are in a service industry, and we should be servicing our clients, not servicing ourselves. And from a business perspective, I can do it in less time, meaning greater profit. It's win-win.

Having simple footage of the whole day (yes, even if it's a camera set up in the corner at the reception) is wonderful. In "CCTV" style, the video isn't the memory. The video is the cue for all the memories that the couple already has.

How many of us stop to ask what the client is expecting?

This post sounds like your saying that I'm unfamiliar with the needs of my clients. Which couldn't be further from the truth. All I'm saying is that you either want product A or product B. Most clients want my product, but this particular person would have been happier with a less expensive, simpler video. There's nothing I can do, as I will not change my shooting or editing style to appease someone. As this is the reason I thought one would book me to begin with
This is my first client that isn't happy with the final video, which is unsettling for me.... The complaints were well out of my control... Regardless of which shooting/editing style.

Steve

This post sounds like your saying that I'm unfamiliar with the needs of my clients. Which couldn't be further from the truth. All I'm saying is that you either want product A or product B. Most clients want my product, but this particular person would have been happier with a less expensive, simpler video. There's nothing I can do, as I will not change my shooting or editing style to appease someone. As this is the reason I thought one would book me to begin with
This is my first client that isn't happy with the final video, which is unsettling for me.... The complaints were well out of my control... Regardless of which shooting/editing style.

Steve

Steve, don't take it personally. No doubt this bride complained about her photographer, entertainment, florists, makeup etc etc..

If it's any consolation, think about the poor guy who is going to have to live with her.

After 10 years in this business, there a few things I learned quickly.

1. Never accept a wedding conducted in a foreign language - unless you speak the language!

2. Three-day Indian weddings are nightmares. Period.

3. If your clients were born in India or the Middle East, chances are they love to haggle and will never be satisfied with anything you give them. This has definitely been my experience.

I stopped accepting these types of weddings after my 2nd year in business, and in the process I avoided 8 years of headaches and nightmares.

Hey Jeff

Those are probably the 3 most important things to remember if a bride calls you on the phone in broken English asking if you are available!!

No disrespect whatsoever meant to couples that are not Western but communication is important with any supplier and I actually have a section on my website suggesting that if a wedding is indeed in a language other than English then it would be far wiser for the bride to find someone who both understands the language and the culture and traditions so they end up with a better end product.

I can safely say that 99.9% of my issues with brides happened during the time I was first doing these weddings...after I stopped accepting them all problems also ceased!!

Chris

3. If your clients were born in India or the Middle East, chances are they love to haggle and will never be satisfied with anything you give them. This has definitely been my experience.

Same experience here, I also stopped accepting these type of weddings, my last Indian wedding was also a nightmare with the client asking for things that were never agreed upon like free of charge editing changes.

No matter what else happens, stand firm on this one.

What's wrong with giving encoded to DVD format of the raw footage? I do this with my highlights package.

Rather than post a new thread, let me share an experience I had last Sunday. I think it is very important to review line items of your agreement with Bride & Groom. Four things came up that had red flags written all over them.

1. We want copyright, we don't want to have our photos/videos used for any promotional purposes. Fine with me.

2. Creative control during the day. They want inputs on how videos are shot and how they want to be posed during the day. But we like your work, feel free to do what you like but we want to have a say during the photo shoot.

3. They want 25% downpayment, 25 % on the day rather than the full payment. They want to view the footage 2 days after to check if the quality is up to their standard. " They don't want the headache of going to small claims court", were their exact words.

4. 12 hour day does that mean we get 12 hours of footage? Thanks to Travis for this, I told them it means 12 hour presence.


Having said all of that, he wants me to revise the agreement then he'll issue me a check for the downpayment.

I politely declined the gig, it's the only Saturday available for me in August. I think I'd rather go camping.

Noel, I've had a couple of similar contacts in the past such as yours. I remember my jaw dropped and I was almost speechless. I was able to recover my presence of mind enough to send them to another videographer whom I disliked.

Yoinks!

Red flags? Sounds more like 10 foot tall, red flashing neon letters... "RUN AWAY!!!"... they'll want to review that footage quick, I see an annullment not long after the video is shot...

Better to go on a camping trip to a mosquito infested swamp... with alligators... and snakes...

Noel, I've had a couple of similar contacts in the past such as yours. I remember my jaw dropped and I was almost speechless. I was able to recover my presence of mind enough to send them to another videographer whom I disliked.

I had my share but this one ranks up there!

Yoinks!

Red flags? Sounds more like 10 foot tall, red flashing neon letters... "RUN AWAY!!!"... they'll want to review that footage quick, I see an annullment not long after the video is shot...

Better to go on a camping trip to a mosquito infested swamp... with alligators... and snakes...

To be honest I saw my life flashing in front of me if I do sign the couple up.LOL

I had one that sent me a list via email that outlined terms, such as yours did. I truly wondered what fool would take the guy on.

Hi Noel

I must admit I have never had such a scary request. Believe it or not some idiot WILL take on the job, probably at a lot lower cost than your price too.

Item 2 would scare me the most I think!!! and also the footage review???? Who actually would set a quality standard ???

Serious would anyone actually shoot 12 hours of footage in 12 hours??? and of course you forgot to mention that the 12 hours of raw footage needs to fit onto a standard DVD too!!! (I had a ethnic bride who really exected non stop footage from 6 pm to midnight and it must fit on 1 DVD!!!!)

Good Miss Noel...I wouldn't have touched that one either!!!

Chris

This post sounds like your saying that I'm unfamiliar with the needs of my clients. Which couldn't be further from the truth. All I'm saying is that you either want product A or product B. Most clients want my product, but this particular person would have been happier with a less expensive, simpler video. There's nothing I can do, as I will not change my shooting or editing style to appease someone. As this is the reason I thought one would book me to begin with
This is my first client that isn't happy with the final video, which is unsettling for me.... The complaints were well out of my control... Regardless of which shooting/editing style.

Steve

i completely agree with this. There are other videographers in my area that "customize" their wedding coverage for each couple. This would be a nightmare for me, I wouldn't really know what each couple truly expected.

I make sure every client gets a full length DVD of a prior wedding. I explain to them that this it pretty much what their DVD will be like. This is my product and style and this is what they will get.
It took me a while and I now have an air tight contract. It's saved a lot of headaches.

Speaking of red flags, every difficult client (I've had very few, knock on wood), I could have predicted from the start. When we were starting out, I found it really hard to pass on any gig. After a few problems, I find it really easy to pass when I see trouble.

Hi William

I'm a big believer in "what you see is what you are going to get!!!" I think it's only fair to show the couple a recent wedding....if they don't like your work then it's far better for you NOT to get the job than promise the moon and stars and end up with a bride saying "....but we expected......and this is nothing like you promised."

If they have already seen examples of recent weddings on DVD you are going to get no nasty surprises after the wedding when it's time to pay up or complain.

Just for interest, I don't supply a full DVD of just ONE wedding but a combination of my 4 weddings the previous month...cos we have plenty of outdoor ceremonies too..I pop in a recent Civil and Church ceremony and then mix up the rest so the bride can see exactly how you handle each event from Prep right to Final Farewell (but only one speech)

Chris

Hi Noel

I must admit I have never had such a scary request. Believe it or not some idiot WILL take on the job, probably at a lot lower cost than your price too.


Good Miss Noel...I wouldn't have touched that one either!!!

Chris

Hi Chris, I am pretty sure a studio just starting out would take on this. Either they come out stronger after this or they quit the industry all together.

4. 12 hour day does that mean we get 12 hours of footage? Thanks to Travis for this, I told them it means 12 hour presence.


I literally had a bride email me today and I'm shooting her wedding this June. I have 10 hours written in my contract. She thought she could break up the 10 hours and told me I can go home and rest for a few hours after the church and return for the cocktail hour. This still has to play out..

Hey Michael

That's always a tricky one to deal with...if the Church is across the road from your house then there is no issue putting your feet up for a few hours and treating it as two jobs (one in the afternoon and one in the evening) I don't even mind my place happens to be directly on the way from the Church to Reception so stopping off is no biggy!!!

However in fairness, if a bride wants a 7 hour package BUT broken down into 3 hours in the afternoon and 4 hours in the evening then she needs to do just that..book a 3 hour package PLUS a 4 hour package and hopefully it will cost more than if she took a 7 hour!! That way you are partially compensated!!

Chris