I am looking to buy a new camera before the end of the year. At first I was very excited. Now I am just confused and do not know what to buy! I was originally looking at the JVC GY-HM700L17S. ( B&H has a mail in rebate offer till the end of the year for a battery system. )

I am now looking for the best camera I can buy in the same price range. Im fairly new to the video industry so all the specs as listed I understand somewhat, but after some consulting with friends whom have been in the industry much longer than I have it seems that I should rather be looking at Sony or Canon...

Can anybody please help me in my decision as this is a huge amount of money for me to spend so I want to be sure I am making the right decision. I will be using the camera outdoors in africa if that helps clarify which of these will work better for me...

JVC,Canon and Sony of coarse all have their pro's and con's, but what would be the DVinfo users opinion as to which of these are the best? Apparently canon will be bringing out a new camera to replace the XL-H1, does anyone know anything about this new camera? I have been told to wait until they release this new camera as it will be way above the rest? This is a problem as I don't want to wait for the canon not knowing what I am waiting for and miss out on the expensive battery system they offer on the JVC as listed above. The sony that is in question is the EX3. Is there any other cameras in the same price range as these that might be the better option that I do not know about?

Thanks for any advice in advance!

Melcom

"Best" is a subjective term. So the question has to be, what is the majority type of work you plan to or are doing and what camera fits your needs best?
Are you comparing apples to apples? Maybe not. JVC HM700, compact fullsize camera that shoots MOV or MP4, professional type lens and battery system, requires a heavier duty tripod and appropriate head (means money cost unless you have it) even the bag to carry it in costs more. You mentioned Sony. OK which model. The EX1 or EX3 or the PMW320 or 350? They are all different cameras compared to the JVC. EX1/3 and 320 all 1/2 CMOS cams the 350 is 2/3 CMOS while the JVC is CCD. Better or not? I don't know but they are different. Different as they can be. Better? Depends on what you need for the work you do. Canon? Again different. 1/3 inch but the 305(?) does 4:2:2 and 50 mbps. Is it really necessary? Maybe, depends on the work you do and what you feel you need to complete it.

There was obviously a reason you were drawn to the HM700 which BTW is a wonderful camera especially with the 17 lens (I know a number of folks that have them and love them) it's a good all around cam and gets you the pro lens/shoulder mount for a reasonable price. Is it right for you? Don't know, only you know that.

Keep in mind this business is a money pit. Just when you think you got the latest and greatest, someone else comes out with something newer. You could go broke trying to keep up. Get the camera that fits your needs better than anything else thats out ther NOW then you have the best camera.

Good luck.

Don, thank you very much for your response!! As I said I know little enough about it to confuse myself but not nearly enough to make a clarify anything of value. There is 3 questions in my mind at this stage that made me wonder if I should get the JVC or not:

It does not have image stabilizer?
I have never worked with a full shoulder mount camera before but i would think that working in the field
footage should be more stable anyway if the camera is over my shoulder?

It does not have an auto focus option?
Its not that I need an auto focus, but occasionally while shooting on manual focus through brush perhaps, something else might happen around me so when I zoom back out I usually then switch it to auto focus instead of turning the focus ring a million times and then back and forth to different people standing around as they talk or what ever the case might be. ( please forgive my lack of experience here but there is only one way to learn more about this. perhaps a more professional camera handles things like the above mentioned much easier, I dont know? )

What does the mbps really mean? The rate at which a specific sized file is recorded? if its something like that, what difference does it really make to what you are recording? ( sorry for the silly question and again lack of experience and knowledge about this! )

all and all I still believe that I want to get the JVC. The condition here are tough and from what I read the JVC has a much better structure than the EX3. I currently use a Sony VX2100. I do not mind change as long as the change is for the better.

One function that I enjoyed on my Sony is the fact that I could switch from auto focus to manual and then to infinity without wasting any time allowing me to make a minor adjustment to the focus ring.

Thanks for the help!

Melcom:

As Don says, a lot of "best" is subjective. The rest is economics.

As interesting as the HM700 is, that camera may not be the right tool for your shooting style and kinds of things you say you plan on shooting.

You say you are upgrading from a VX2000. The first thing that occurs to me is that you might find a Sony NX5 (or AX2000) more to your liking. The NX/AX are larger and heavier than the VX but smaller than the JVC and EX cams you also have been considering. Also a bit lighter than the Canon 3xx cams, I believe. Coming from your VX2000, the AX/NX control layout will seem much more familiar to you. The AX/NX have the features you said you want for the kinds of shooting you do. The low-light capabilities are close to those of the VX2000. Their "active steady shot" makes for great image stabilization when shooting handheld. If you want shoulder-mounting for added stabilization, you can buy a good rig with a small portion of the money you save over the cost of an EX, Canon 305, or the JVC.

Is there a reason you need or want interchangeable lenses? How important is it for you to have interchangeable lenses and auto capabilities? The Canon 305 and Sony EX3 have auto capabilities that the JVC lacks, but maybe the economics favor buying the JVC with another lens?

Is flash-banding an issue for you? That is, are you making interlaced video while a lot of photographers are popping flash pictures? With CMOS sensors, your camera may record the flash on the upper or lower half of a frame instead of a complete white out of the whole frame. This is very annoying to some videographers. For others (myself included) flash-banding does not matter. If flash-banding matters for what you do, the JVC has CCD sensors rather than CMOS. So, the question you need to decide for yourself is whether the flash-banding issue important enough for you to want to get CCD sensors in the JVC while giving up auto-focus switching capabilities?

As far as whether Mbps matters, the answer is: sometimes for some people. It depends on what you do for editing and what you need for delivery. More Mbps gives you more data to work with in editing. In some situations, you may have a bit more color, a bit less noise, etc. Depending on what kinds of shooting and editing and delivery you do, the differences might be subtle or they might be crucial.

I am not sure what you meant by "The condition here are tough and from what I read the JVC has a much better structure than the EX3." Are you talking about business conditions being tough or are you talking about difficult environmental conditions (such as rain and wind) or are you talking about having to lug a camera around all day? When you say that the JVC has better "structure" do you mean build quality or are you talking about things like balance? All of these things can be important, especially balance, when you are lugging the cam around all day doing hand-held or shoulder mounted shooting while on the go.

That said, there is nothing better than actually laying hands on a camera to see how well it works (or does not work) for you. Are there any nearby places where you could rent any of these cameras for a day?

Melcom, yours is a very tough question. I had the same questions once.
My answer was a Panasonic, a brand yet to be mentionned in this thread.
The recording rate was a factor for me. Broadcast requireents often specify a rate
Of 100 mbps and the HPX170 I bought does record at that rate.

Best advice I can offer is look at cameras in your price range that meet what technical
Requirements you have, then read as much as you can about them in these forums.

I am very happy with my HPX, but it can't do everything. For instance, it's small 1/3
Inch sensors mean it doesn't have the depth of field or low light capabilities of cameras
With larger sensors. Ever price out a proper 2/3 inch camcorder? :)

For me adding a Canon DSLR (and a prime lens with a wide aperture - a "fast" lens)
has filled in the blanks for me a bit.

Good luck. I'm sure lots of reading will uncover your best choice.

BTW, you have a beautiful country. I rode a motorcycle around there and in Botswana
Last year.

Jay and Thane, thanks for the advice!

When I talk about the structure of the camera I'm talking about the build quality...? Is the build on the JVC stronger than that of the Sony and perhaps the Canon?

Unfortunately I haven't found the JVC here yet but I can get my hands on the EX3. When I had it at my disposal however I did not really spend time working with the camera as I was at that stage not uncertain about what I wanted to do. Thats when I started looking around more...

Some of the features like interchangeable lenses are not that important, but I do think it makes the camera more versatile which can mean better value. One of the reasons the JVC attracted me from the get go was the fact that it records .mov. I use fcp so it makes life easy. I am not scared of change as far as the ergonomics go. I want to upgrade my camera and if that means in my price range that I have to change I would love to take it on!

How does the image quality compare between the EX3,HM700 and the XF305?

The auto functions that the JVC lacks I could get used to IF functionality of the camera itself is easy enough to compensate for what it lacks. Does anyone have any experience regarding this matter?

Yes Thane we do indeed have a beautiful country and I love it here!! Touring in Africa I amazing!!

hey buddy,

I've used my JVC (the old 110, not the new 700) for five years, in the toughest conditions our beloved Africa can throw at it - cyclones in Mozambique, street fighting in Mogadishu, refugee camps in eastern DRC, Sandton Mall (!).

It's barely let me down - and nothing that can't be fixed easily. It's a proper, serious, fully functional camera, with full manual flexibility and an ergonomic form that makes shooting a pleasure.

There's a great support network in SA - Inala broadcast helped out a lot for me at one point (Tel +2711 206 8348).

The JVC community here on DVinfo is awesome, too - a staggering resource of knowledge.

Well, I guess you worked it out: I reckon go with the JVC.

All the best, and maybe see you on the road. What kind of stuff do you shoot?

Rob

Jay andThane pretty well answered your questions but just as a re-hash, a shoulder monted camera doesn't always make for more stabile footage. I've know people thru out the years that couldn't hold the camera steady if their life depended on it. After trying to hold on tight for about 20 minutes or so your arms get a bit tired and the legs give way (at least mine do) so it's a relative thing. I have a DVRig that I used on my DSRs and my JVC5000 that really made a hugh difference.

Anyway, no auto focus, no image stabilizer. You need to know the camera like any other, you need to know which way to turn the "knobs" BUT having said all of that the JVC HD and HM series of cameras are very good for most general purpose work. I've used them at weddings, seminars, talking heads...all sorts of work. I don't own them I rent them when needed and they fill the bill quite well.

Robert, thanks for the great advice!! This was a big factor why I was leaning towards the JVC in the first place! Thanks for actually confirming that the camera is indeed the build that we need down here!!

So nobody knows anything about the new canon thats coming?

At this stage I am going with the JVC!! BUT, can someone please tell me about the picture quality and size between the 3?

Thanks,
Melcom

I just purchased the Canon xf 300 and i am blown away by its build quality and the best camera I ever had in a long time . I had the JVC 700 with the 17 lens and the camera was ok but compared to the canon it is not in the same class . Believe me I was a JVC guy for years but when I tell you to at least look at the Canon please do. I just did a shoot with it for two days and the lens is awesome , it has also better low light capabilities. Incredible build quality too.

Doug

The Canon XF isn't an interchangeable lens. It's also a handycam form factor and not a semi shoulder like the EX3 and HM700.

Right away, I see the JVC has a couple good things going for it that the others can't touch like 4.3 inch LCD, both SDHC AND SxS. A proper set of BNC connectors and professional power system are not to be glossed over either.

Rather than trying to find "the Best", try to find "the best for you". Lotsa people here with hands on experience with the cameras can help but if it's possible, there's nothing like renting one and trying it out in your world.

Melcom, if you haven't seen this thread, I notice a poster John McDonald was headed to Africa with an HM700 and might be of some help...FYI

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-hm700-hm790-camera-systems/240314-firmware-update-gy-hm100-gy-hm700.html

I took a couple of rails, a plate and a handle and made a completely usable shoulder mount for the XF300. I also tried an offset to use the viewfinder and if I didnt wear glasses it would be perfect.
If you have not seen the quality the XF is capable of, you really need to. I have used the ex1/ex3 and they are great cameras but the Canon IMHO looks a little better. As far as interchangeable lenses, I can't think of a reason to change the XF as it's one of the best I've used. And no doubt Canon will have an interchangeable version of the XF at some point.

Oh...the image stabilization and auto focus options are quite incredible too. And the LCD is 4" and can swivel to be viewed on either side of the camera. Very handy stuff! And the big battery lasts over 7 hours. Dual hot-swappable CF card slots means unlimited record time.
(can you tell I'm extremely pleased with the XF?)

No matter what you do, a rear VF design does not have the same weight distribution and handling characteristics as a side mounted VF as in the XL, EX3 and HM700 designs. The HM700 sits on the shoulder right out of the box. Interchangeable lenses are great. I wish I could afford one. These are apparently important factors to the OP and he's getting an HM700. This thread ought not turn into a camera war.

Les:

Good point, generally, but I haven't seen anything here that looks like a camera war, to me.

I hope that nothing I wrote came across that way.

Every camera represents choices and trade-offs. Melcom has given us a list of features he would like to have and indicated the kinds of cameras he has been considering. As far as I can see, all the suggestions above are all aimed at helping Melcom clarify his choices (and maybe his thinking) as he looks at moving up from his current VX2000, which he seems to like. As I saw it, folks were offering suggestions for things that could get him some things he wants that he does not get with JVC700. Those other cameras all have tradeoffs, too, and lack features found on the 700. Sometimes there can be ways to work-around the apparent trade-offs such as ways of making a shoulder mount for a Canon XF300. Maybe that work-around is something that Melcom wants to deal with and maybe it will not be. But it helps him sort through his choices to know that he can do that but, if he really wants a "shoulder cam," the viewfinder/screen may not be as useful to him as the large side-mounted eyepiece.

As was said at the outset, this thread is not about "what is best" but "best for whom for to do what where on what kind of budget?"

Melcom:

Your questions about Canon's replacement for the XLH1 have got lost in traffic. You might get more information if you put that specific question into a separate thread and maybe tried separately posting it the XLH1 forum.

In post #9, the OP said "At this stage I am going with the JVC!! ".

My read of the OP was that he'd clearly settled on a semi shoulder design yet the thread, TO ME, seemed to ignore that and was turning into an XF love fest blind to the XF having the well known poor Handycam design for handheld/shoulder rigification.

In post # 9, Melcom did ask "BUT, can someone please tell me about the picture quality and size between the 3?" Earlier, he had asked: "How does the image quality compare between the EX3,HM700 and the XF305?"

I took the replies about the XF as attempts to respond to those questions rather than being the kind of fanboy blather that one sees on other sites.

But, nonetheless, I think the talk about how nice the Canon images can be brings us back to a point that you and I both made earlier.

There is no substitute for getting hands on the cameras to make your own comparison and see what makes a difference for you. If Melcom thinks the Canon pictures are better, are they "better" enough for him to want to change his mind about the JVC?

I do like all three of the cameras and all three have features that I find are important to me. Again I will mention that I do not mind change. The only thing at this stage I like on the Sony is the fact that some features stay the same moving from Sony to Sony. That said, I started out with a Canon then moved to the Sony and this emphasizes the fact that I do not at all mind change. As long as its for the better of coarse. From what I have read, the physicality of the Sony is nothing near the JVC. The only reason why I am looking at the Canon in the first place is because its a good camera and I gather that it has very good image quality. HOWEVER, as mentioned, it lacks other features that are important to me. This is why I am trying to find out more about canon's replacement camera for the xlh1. Then we would be comparing apples with apples.

Doug, this brings me to my next question, what do you mean when you say that the hm700 is not in the same class as the xf300?

I dont really care much for the name on the camera! To me the cameras are all expensive and in the same price range but each offers its own pros and cons. The more expensive battery systems for the JVC bothered me but the fact that B&H offers a mail in rebate for a battery system overrules this problem. The cards that the cameras use as well as the format also plays a role here. Working with Mac the JVC seems to make my life as easy as it could be! Again I might be wrong and I yes I am aware that its now a days very simple to rectify such a problem. BUT if I don't have to, why should I?

Jay,

Another question regarding the mbps that you touch on earlier. Does working with higher mbps mean that i will have less recording time on any sized card compared to the lower mbps? Image quality is based on several factors, does this play a big role? Surely if we compare these picture qualities to one another the difference is minor, otherwise there would be no comparison in the first place? I definitely do not want to work with files that are twice the size compared to the time laps of the footage if the image quality is minor? Is the higher mbps better for slow motion?

Les,

You are definitely reiterating some of the key elements to why I was interested in the JVC to begin with!!
The fact that the JVC seems to be a more professional camera build wise makes the "upgrade" itself much greater! In terms of upgrading myself in the industry! I might be wrong here again because I know very little of the industry itself...

This is why I am getting this out there so that people who actually know can help me make the right decision!

Thanks for everyones input!

Melcom

Melcom,
The higher mbps of the XF means bigger files than the HM700 and EX. Time lapse, slo-mo and normal time files will all be bigger (50mbps vs 35mbps).

I think you need to do some research of the many threads about the cameras. Here's a comparison of the XF with the EX: XDCAM-USER.com Canon XF305 Review with Sample XF/EX clips (http://www.xdcam-user.com/?p=990)

That blog gives you a good idea of the image and ergonomic issues.

When I looked at these cameras, I felt the XF delivered similar image quality as the EX but at the cost of a higher file size and you had to work harder at getting it in low light. 50mbps 4:2:2 has zero value to me. I also knew some of the ergonomics of the XF such as the disabled zoom rocker and battery compartment design would drive me bonkers. YMMV.

As for a rumored solid state XL, that was supposed to happen in Sept but didn't. Again, you can find threads on that topic.

Melcom I just sold my JVC 700 with the Fuji 17 lens and the biggest problem I had with it was the chroma fringing and aberations of the lens and yes I tried the Canon lens too and it was no much better. In low light the 700 is not very good . the canon has better low light capabilities. I like the JVC for its shoulder mount and the Canon is not as ergonomic for hand held work. I still have the JVC HM 100 . So I think feature wise and image wise the JVC can't compete with the Canon just my opinion but I owned both and used the 700 for 11 months

Cheers to all and Les we need to get together sometime since we are both In Boca lol


Doug

1/3" CCD's, I sure would like to see a published minimum illumination on this and other JVC cams.

JVC Professional Specifications page (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/specs.jsp?model_id=MDL101851&feature_id=03)

No matter what you do, a rear VF design does not have the same weight distribution and handling characteristics as a side mounted VF as in the XL, EX3 and HM700 designs. The HM700 sits on the shoulder right out of the box. Interchangeable lenses are great. I wish I could afford one. These are apparently important factors to the OP and he's getting an HM700. This thread ought not turn into a camera war.

Sorry if my post came across that way...one of the posts had a question about the Canon so I thought I'd share my opinions with a possible solution for shoulder mount. I know a bunch of news guys who wont look at anything other than a true shoulder mount and I understand the reason. Hopefully Canon will offer a solution for that!

The XL mounts ( and I imagine the EX3 ) are helped further by adding batteries and receivers on an aft plate.

Jay,

Another question regarding the mbps that you touch on earlier. Does working with higher mbps mean that i will have less recording time on any sized card compared to the lower mbps? Image quality is based on several factors, does this play a big role? Surely if we compare these picture qualities to one another the difference is minor, otherwise there would be no comparison in the first place? I definitely do not want to work with files that are twice the size compared to the time laps of the footage if the image quality is minor? Is the higher mbps better for slow motion?

Melcom

I think most of this question had been addressed by other posters, so I'll just add a couple of comments.

First, I have done very little work with slow motion, but my sense is that the higher data rate can be better for slow motion. That is "can be" not "always will be." Depends on how slow you want to go and to whom or for what you are delivering your video. For more knowledgeable information, I suggest you check through the NanoFlash forum because this is the kind of thing that gets pretty heavily discussed there.

The second thing about the higher Mbps rates is that they have more color depth which may give you more to work with when doing color correction or grading. At this point, I'm with Les in saying that 50mbps 4:2:2 really would not make any difference for what I do.

All that said, let me add a complication to your search. One big thing you said you want is instant compatibility with FCP. Have you considered the new AJA Ki Pro Mini? As I understand it, the KPM will record Pro Res 4:2:2, and that might equalize this aspect of camera choice.

Jay...good point about data rate for slo-mo. I shoot 720p/24 at 60fps to maximize the data rate. Love the results even at 35mbs.

I looked at the specs again on the HM700 and I can see how Melcom landed on it:
JVC Professional Technical Description page (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL101851&feature_id=02)

The HM700 has Native File Recording to record .mov files for drag and drop into FCP or to record in the usual XDCAM .mp4 format. I also see that there's an SxS recorder attachment to record to both SDHC and SxS simultaneously. That recorder leverages the JVC sandwich body design so that it sits between the body and the battery. Not only can any of the usual recorders be added but JVC could conceivable put one in it's sandwich case. There's also variable frame rate, continuous clip mode, Canon and Fujinon glass...cache recording...simultaneous downconvert and output to DV port....simultaneous SD SDI while recording HD... peaking .... lots of pro features that balance nicely on the shoulder at a competitive price point

Les,

Thanks for the link regarding the Canon! It was very interesting to see some of the poor functionality aspects of the camera! The JVC beats the Sony and the Canon in this department hands down! I came across some reviews of the hm700 where it is mainly compared to the EX3. Horses for courses here!! The JVC has an amazing form factor but lacks in the resolution department with the 720 sensor. I would rather have a better camera to work with than a better picture for my shooting conditions! How much worse is the image quality on the JVC? I see in one review they mention the actual line are 800 compared to Sony's 940. Some insight on this?

I cannot find any reviews where the JVC gets compared to the Canon, but I dont really care for the Canon that much at this point in time as I want to have the ca,era on my shoulder without having to rig anything.

I will most definitely be shooting in temperatures above 40c ( 104 f ) and above!! This is a major problem as I see that JVC lists the highest operational temperature to be only 40c?????

I definately see what you see in the JVC in terms of features and shape. You may want to take a good look at the EX3. I've seen that it's in use in projects in Afghanistan and Africa. Supposedly, the viewfinder is to die for. There are also good add-ons that make it balance on your shoulder the way you like. Westside AV has a popular one and they also are shooters with that camera. They are a DVinfo sponsor.

Also, you may want to contact Rada-Productions and East Pleasant Pictures on Vimeo. They published some nice documentaries about NGOs helping the people living on Lake Tanganyika. They may have some advice.

East Pleasant Pictures
Lake Tanganyika / Floating Health Clinic on Vimeo

RADA-Productions
Agents of Change Trailer on Vimeo

Interesting footage.

Melcom, if you are interested in the EX3 and getting FCP-compatible files, check out the discussion on the soon-to-be-released AJA Ki Pro Mini which apparently is designed to work with EX cams as well as the current Canon XLH1, among others. This would give you ProRes files.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/aja-io-ki-pro/486000-ki-pro-mini.html

Lets conclude this thread by a vote shall we?

I vote JVC gy-hm700.

S0...

1 votes JVC gy-hm700
0 votes Sony EX3
0 votes Canon xf 305