Are you using a secondary recorder and syncing in post or are you using a Beactek or Juicelink unit with AGC disabling? I'm considering a 550d with a Beachtek unit for balanced inputs and a headphone jack. I know the 60d now has manual gain, but how are you monitoring the sound since it does not have a headphone jack? I wouldn't consider the 60d based on this fact alone.

i don't use beach tek or juicelink, but H4N.
I simply do not use HDSLR audio in post for actual audio, but rather for syncing up.
With 60D, it sounds much better, but this is what I do. Hope that helps.

H4N monitoring+recording straight to DSLR on Vimeo

I have been a long time proponent of getting sound to the camera. I participated in the initial testing of Magic Lantern with the Tramm Hudson group. And I can do it if I am shooting by myself using the CX231 Juiced Link XLR adapter. But for shoots where I have a sound guy, I gave up on trying record to my Canon DSLRs because of the development of Dual Eyes. I know with some real hard work, I can get decent sound in the camera. But to me, it is actually easier to do double system, now.

I have a decent 4 channel field mixer (Sign Video ENG44) and marry it with a Tascam DR07 mini recorder, or the Zoom H1 minirecorder. The two mixed together make a component recording sytems that is pretty good and I think might compare with the more expensive all in one recording units.

I changed course because I use Dual Eyes (from makers of Plural Eyes) to batch synch audio tracks the video cameras. Leaving the cameras in AGC mode ( incase of the 5D) seems to be best for trying to synch.

Thanks for the replies guys. I really don't like the idea of doing a double system and syncing in post. Just seems like unnecessary time to me. I think I'll just use the Beachtek which includes meters, AGC disable and headphone jack. This seems like the most straightforward to me.

Beachtek DXA-5DA DSLR Cameras Passive Dual XLR Mic DXA-5DA B&H

Brian,

So you understand where I'm coming from, I'm from juicedLink. But, IMHO ...

Since you haven't selected a camera yet, let's talk about that first.

The T2i will require you to use an AGC Disable technique, since it does not have manual control of audio. So, you are going to have to sacrifice one of your recording channels, to get 1 clean channel for recording. Note, don't get yourself in trouble by trying to get that second clean recording track by trying to use a tone for AGC disable. Using a tone depends on unspecified parameters of your camera (Nyquist anti-aliasing filter) to try and keep harmonics from getting aliased back in band. Since you can not monitor what the camera is recording, if your camera is acting up, you will have no way of knowing that your audio is getting corrupted. AGC Disable works and is effective (but not quite as well as a camera that has manual control), but for only 1 clean track for recording.

The 60D has manual control, so there is no need to use an AGC Disable technique. You will get 2 clean tracks for recording.

If you have it in the budget, I would recommend the 60D over the T2i. The 60D is capable of high quality audio recording of 2 tracks without the need for AGC Disable. There is no need to use an external recording which will require you to sync in post.


The DXA-5Da that you mention is a passive adapter, and does not have a low noise preamplifier. This means that when you throttle back the noisy amplifiers in the camera (either manually or with AGC disable), you are also turning down the microphone signal. So, you don't really get an improvement in signal to noise performance.

To improve signal-to-noise performance, you want to throttle back the noisy amps (either manually, or with AGC Disable), then replace that noisy gain with clean gain from the juicedLink low-noise preamps.

Beachtek has a model (DXA-SLR) which has a preamp, phantom power, headphones, single LED signal indicator, AGC Disable (which you won't need with the 60D). The juicedLink DT454 also has a preamp, phantom power, headphones, meter, AGC Disable. But, the juicedLink DT454 also has other advantages: 1) 4 mic inputs, 2) higher available maximum gain, 3) 4-segment R/L meter, 4) ability to calibrate meter to different cameras, 5) battery saving 12V phantom power (in addition to 48V).


So, IMHO, the kit I recommend for you would be the 60D with the juicedLink DT454.

-R

Robert,

Thanks for the detailed response. I know that the solution you recommend is the best way to go but unfortunately, my budget does not allow for the 60D/juicelink combination. I am willing to live with the disadvantages of the combo I've chosen for the time being.

Brian,

Sorry, I thought you said you were still considering the 60D

I understand your budget constraints. But, if you don't have the budget for the 60D with manual control, and need to use the AGC Disable with the T2i, then I still recommend getting a low-noise preamplifier.

The passive adapter you are looking at does not have a low-noise preamp. So, when you throttle back the noisy amps in the camera (with AGC Disable for the T2i), it does not have any low-noise gain to boost back up the mic signal.

Check out this old comparison video done by Jon Fairhurst (using the Canon 5D before the new firmware gave it manual control of audio):
1. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Boom Mic (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo

Put on some headphones, so you can compare the signal to noise performance.

The DXA-5D is a passive adapter (similar to the one you are looking at). In both cases presented in the video (where the DXA-5D AGC Disable was used, or MagicLantern was used to throttle back the noisy camera gain), the DXA-5D did not have any low-noise preamp to boost back up the mic signal level that was lost (when the camera gain got throttled back). So, without a low-noise preamp, the system signal-to-noise performance is poor.

The CX231 is a low-noise preamp. When MagicLantern was used to throttle back the noisy amps in the camera in the video, the low-noise preamp of the CX231 boosted back up the mic signal, resulting in improved system signal-to-noise performance.

Now, with your T2i, you're not going to want to use the CX231 (since it does not have headphones, meters, or AGC disable). With your T2i, you will want to use the juicedLink DT454 instead, which adds those features.


BTW. I've heard there has been some progress on the MagicLantern front for the T2i. If that's the case, then you won't need the AGC Disable feature and you will be able to get 2 clean tracks of audio. But, the key to improving signal-to-noise on a camera with manual control (original firmware, or MagicLantern), is the low-noise preamplifier. You'll still want the DT454 for its preamp and headphones.


IMHO ...

-R

I see what you mean about the s/n level when using an adapter that is passive only. The noise is higher than it would be when using one with a preamp. I've heard that the magic lantern firmware for the T2i has been released. I may try this, although it seems like a lengthy process to get it installed. This is what attracted me to the beachtek box originally. I will consider the juicedlink unit instead.

Thanks.

Brian.

Beware the "hacked" firmware approach. Canon found a way to halt progress on the 7D by incorporating a firmware upgrade counter and a maximum limit to upgrades in a firmware upgrade. The word I got is that in his 7D, Tramm hit that maximum limit and his camera will no longer accept firmware updates. He is "stuck" with the last one installed and progress on the 7D stopped there.

you can bet your bottom dollar Canon is looking to do something to stop "hacked" upgrades for the T2i.

Panasonic stopped it cold in the GH1, when the "hacker" hit some real success on that one Panasonic stopped shipment of every GH1 still in their factory until a new "firmware upgrade" could be coded so that "unauthorized" firmware upgrade versions flat would not be installed.

So your best bet is to either follow Robert's advice or give double system sound a try and see if you can work with it. It's not as complex or bad as it looks.

I use the ZoomH2 (am helping thewindcutter.com test windmuffs for effective wind noise control with the H1) and it's actually pretty easy. Give yourself a good "synch" spike on both camera audio and the recorder. I get them both running and give the command "ACTION". I'm going to synch on the waveform spike for that word. Announce scene and take # for ID so you can find it on the audio recording for that scene.

I bring the H2 track into a free editor "Audacity", adjust audio level if necessary, and save the portion I need as a WAV file with a filename that tells me what it is.

Put it on the timeline on the sound effects track and drag it into position so it looks like the waveform spikes for "ACTION" match up. Expand the timeline portion so I can see where the spikes are and make minor adjustments until echo is gone.

Then I mute the camera audio track and can now trim to the IN point for the scene. Trim to the OUT point and repeat process for the next scene.

I record a bit low on the ZoomH2 because I can "boost" it in Audacity. I use thewindcutter.com "Stormchaser" model furry windmuff made to fit over the foam windscreen that comes with the H2. The "Stormchaser" has longer and denser fur and does the best job possible of cutting out wind noise.

The H1 is going to be one fantastic recorder, problem is the mics are very sensitive to wind and it is unusable outdoors in any kind of breeze. The folks at thewindcutter.com have sent me two prototypes for the H1 already and we're not happy with the performance so far. They are making up a prototype based on my last evaluation now, and I think we're onto something.

I'll post more info when I know more.

I will second the JuicedLink mixer with the 60D. I use it, I love it and it has worked well for me. Having headphone monitoring, seeing levels is wonderful. I also used it on my old 7D with the AGC defeat.

I a pinch I have used Sennheiser G2 wireless at high output directly into the camera. No headphone monitoring though. Secret is keeping the 60D at no more than a quarter of it's gain.

Bruce,
Thanks for te explanation of your workflow. Seems like it works well for you. I am very used to syncing tracks for my business right now, so this may be an option. I like the idea of having an external recorder which would also be useful for doing voiceover work as well as capturing sound in the field with the built-in mics.

Alan,
How did the juicelink work with the 7D with AGC defeat? Was the sound clean? Any issues? I'm probably going to go with the T2i, so I'll definitely need AGC feature if I get the juicelink.

I don't think I'm going to try the T2i hack for manual audio. Too big of a risk, plus it will probably void the warranty.

The JuicedLink worked great for me on the 7D. It did as advertised. I had good clean sound on channel one and noise on channel two. Would highly recommend it.

Bruce,
Thanks for te explanation of your workflow. Seems like it works well for you. I am very used to syncing tracks for my business right now, so this may be an option. I like the idea of having an external recorder which would also be useful for doing voiceover work as well as capturing sound in the field with the built-in mics.

Alan,
How did the juicelink work with the 7D with AGC defeat? Was the sound clean? Any issues? I'm probably going to go with the T2i, so I'll definitely need AGC feature if I get the juicelink.

I don't think I'm going to try the T2i hack for manual audio. Too big of a risk, plus it will probably void the warranty.

Here is an example in a production environment of 60D in camera audio with the JuicedLink DT454. I uses Sennheiser G2 Wireless mics. It was recorded at 1/4 gain in the camera. Very clean.

YouTube - Outdoors For All 2010 Auction Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zAJfESK_mk)

Brian,

Sorry, I thought you said you were still considering the 60D

I understand your budget constraints. But, if you don't have the budget for the 60D with manual control, and need to use the AGC Disable with the T2i, then I still recommend getting a low-noise preamplifier.

The passive adapter you are looking at does not have a low-noise preamp. So, when you throttle back the noisy amps in the camera (with AGC Disable for the T2i), it does not have any low-noise gain to boost back up the mic signal.

Check out this old comparison video done by Jon Fairhurst (using the Canon 5D before the new firmware gave it manual control of audio):
1. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Boom Mic (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5370880)

Put on some headphones, so you can compare the signal to noise performance.

The DXA-5D is a passive adapter (similar to the one you are looking at). In both cases presented in the video (where the DXA-5D AGC Disable was used, or MagicLantern was used to throttle back the noisy camera gain), the DXA-5D did not have any low-noise preamp to boost back up the mic signal level that was lost (when the camera gain got throttled back). So, without a low-noise preamp, the system signal-to-noise performance is poor.

The CX231 is a low-noise preamp. When MagicLantern was used to throttle back the noisy amps in the camera in the video, the low-noise preamp of the CX231 boosted back up the mic signal, resulting in improved system signal-to-noise performance.

Now, with your T2i, you're not going to want to use the CX231 (since it does not have headphones, meters, or AGC disable). With your T2i, you will want to use the juicedLink DT454 instead, which adds those features.


BTW. I've heard there has been some progress on the MagicLantern front for the T2i. If that's the case, then you won't need the AGC Disable feature and you will be able to get 2 clean tracks of audio. But, the key to improving signal-to-noise on a camera with manual control (original firmware, or MagicLantern), is the low-noise preamplifier. You'll still want the DT454 for its preamp and headphones.


IMHO ...

-R

Robert:

I've played a bit with the pre-alpha version of the T2i Magic Lantern in the last day or two. They have been able to disable audio gain, but there is not menu based system yet developed to control audio gain as we were able to do with the Canon 5D. However, in the latest version I have worked with, there is apparent capability of adjusting audio levels using the config file that Magic Lantern loads from. I will be testing that in next day or two to see how it works with your trusty CX231. No headphone monitoring that I am aware of at this point, and you have to dedicate a memory card to use only with Magic Lantern.

Thanks Alan. I'll probably end up going with the Juicedlink when the budget allows.

4-segment R/L meter

Just curious as to why the DT454 has left and right meters if audio is only recorded to one channel. (noise being recorded to the other)

So I saw a few videos using a certain set up with a Fiio headphone adapter and what the guy forgot to mention was that it REQUIRED magic lantern to make it happen....so I checked online to see if there was a way to monitor without ML and this diagram showed up.....but on my 60D for some reason I cannot get the sound in my headphones....any ideas?

So I saw a few videos using a certain set up with a Fiio headphone adapter and what the guy forgot to mention was that it REQUIRED magic lantern to make it happen....so I checked online to see if there was a way to monitor without ML and this diagram showed up.....but on my 60D for some reason I cannot get the sound in my headphones....any ideas?That looks just to be a simple splitter that sends audio from the mic to both headphones & camera simultaneously. You are not actually monitoring what the camera is recording whereas Magic Lantern on the 60D & 550D/T2i does enable this.

That looks just to be a simple splitter that sends audio from the mic to both headphones & camera simultaneously. You are not actually monitoring what the camera is recording whereas Magic Lantern on the 60D & 550D/T2i does enable this.

By splitting the signal this way, you will also affect the signal going to camera, depending on the input impedance of the headphone amp.

That looks just to be a simple splitter that sends audio from the mic to both headphones & camera simultaneously. You are not actually monitoring what the camera is recording whereas Magic Lantern on the 60D & 550D/T2i does enable this.

is there any way that I could monitor or get as close to monitoring the sound without using ML?

the set up with the splitter does not work for me unfortunately...I attempted many different configurations and none seem to work when it comes to listening with the headphones...

THE BEST PORTABLE RECORDER TO USE LINE OUT DIRECTL INTO DSLR
Hi guys...I'm looking for a way to get good if not excellent sound into my Canon T3i while being able to monitor audio in some way...I cannot use Magic Lantern on a Canon T3i. So I have looked for other solutions.
First, let me clarify that I have a wireless Sennheiser G2-lavalier set and when I connect it directly to my Canon T3i the sound is perfectly acceptable for interviews etc and I set the volume manually of course as is possible on the T3i. But i can't monitor audio or even look at the levels once I start recording...
So, I tried the Zoom H1 with a special expensive cable with a -25db attenuator built in and a splitter so that one line can go into the mic in the T3i and the other one go a set of heaphones. My objective is to get the best possible sound into the camera while avoiding having to use Plural Eyes to sync the audio from the H1 later.
So, i did some testing with the Sennheiser connected to the Zoom H1 and then running the cable into the T3i. I watched a video on the internet that recommended setting the line out level of the H1 to 80db and the mic in to 50db. The idea being to get a hight input into the T3i and by pass as much as possible the internatl preamps in the Canon which are reportedly very noisy. I also recorded the sound going into the H1 for comparison later.
Finally, I did a separate test recording directly from the Sennheiser into the Canon T3i without the H1 in between.
Then I listened while having my imac connected to my Yamaha RXA1000 receiver and my 5.1 set up.
1- The sound recorded in to the T3i coming from the Line out in the Zoom H1 shows hiss for sure. The sound is not horrible. No, but it displays a hiss and the voice quality is not as good as i know the Sennheiser can provide.
2-The quality of the sound as recorded into the H1 internal card coming from the Sennheiser mic was excellent. I don't plan to use the H1 built in microphones to record interviews as I have the wireless sennheiser for that.
3- As I already knew, the quality of the Sennheiser mic plugged in directly into the Canon T3i was also very good. On par with the H1's internal recording. But unfortunately this set up doesn't let me monitor audio in any way.
So, the H1 is not my solution as the sound that comes out of its line out is hissy...I'm reading about the new and improved Tascam DR-100mkII which claims to have improved pre-amps (the DR-100 reportedly had noisy pre-amps too-similar to the H1 and H4n I suspect) and also features separate headphone out jack and mic/line out. Has anyone tried connecting it to a DSLR and testing the quality of the sound from the line/mic output?
This could be the answer to my prayers! I just wish to avoid syncing in post-I'm not making a feature film but I would like good sound for sure.
Thanks for you attention
Erick

Just curious why you can't use Magic Lantern on the T3i? Granted it doesn't have audio monitoring (yet). I find at watching levels at least some form of verification. My last shoot I actually shot straight into the camera with a Y-cable connected to a Sennheiser G3 and a Rode Video Mic Pro. Not ideal, but in a pinch...

I'm also looking at the Tascam DR100-mkII. Seems like it would be ideal for this situation. I'm in the same boat, I want decent quality audio, but don't want to sync if I don't have to. The DR100 would be a backup in case something goes haywire with the recording on the T3i. But I'm still holding out for audio monitoring on the T3i.

One option would be to take the output of the H1 straight into the T3i without the attenuation cable. Since you can manually adjust the gain on the T3i, you might be able to get it down low enough that you don't need it. This would reduce the gain on the T3i's preamps, which might be where you are getting some of the hiss.

Not to cut across Roberts information, he produces great mixers IMO much better sounding than Beachtek.

But Rode are in the process of releasing this combo, Videomic Pro with a recorder attached, might be worth looking into this rig.

http://www.rodemic.com/news/announcing-the-videomic-hd-the-worlds-first-digital-recorder-video-microphone

Cheers.

Not to cut across Roberts information, he produces great mixers IMO much better sounding than Beachtek.

But Rode are in the process of releasing this combo, Videomic Pro with a recorder attached, might be worth looking into this rig.

RDE Microphones - RDE News (http://www.rodemic.com/news/announcing-the-videomic-hd-the-worlds-first-digital-recorder-video-microphone)

Cheers.This new Rode device looks interesting as they do produce good quality gear. However I am betting that it will cost a lot more than a sub-$100 Zoom H1 that gives identical functionality i.e. attach it to the hot shoe & loop the stereo output jack to the audio input on the camera so that you use the recorder's microphone & record on SD card as well as on the camera.

This Rode thing looks like it would be ideal. Better capsule than current VideoMicPro. You can plug your wireless into it. Less crap on top of your camera. The only thing is it looks like to doesn't send the mic/line input to a separate channel. Ideally you'd want shotgun on one channel and wireless on the second. Maybe as details come out I'll be proven wrong. But that's what I read from the description. That would be a shame as it looks like an otherwise well designed product. Also, I'm hoping it has actual pots to adjust levels.

This is great news. I've long been a Rode fan.

I'm currently using the Sony PCM 10 with my Rode VideoMic Pro, but it will be nice to condense those functions into one unit. The Sony does way more stuff than I'd ever need.

The best way to get good sound seems obvious to me: first, you need magic lantern on your camera. It's just not a very useful camera without it... and it's free. Even if Canon makes it impossible to upgrade the firmware later, so what- a hacked T2i is still miles ahead of a regular T2i.

Second, you need something that will take in an XLR mic input and spit out a mini input into the camera. A used Beachtek, Juicedlink, whatever you want. But you need that. I just got a used Tascam DR-100 and have been testing audio with it. The preamps are pretty good. Obviously, not as good as what you'll find on a Nagra, but they're amazing for something that cost me $225. If you have a good mic, like a sennheiser ME66, the noise bed is quite low, and your audio is going to sound great. You then can spit that audio out of the recorder and into the camera if you want, using magic lantern to set the gain to -6 (is what I found to match the DR-100 levels). If you compare both audio recordings (tascam to the t2i) they're almost identical in quality this way. For most people, there's no difference at all. This gives you a bonus- 2 distinct sets of audio files, in case one fails (which does happen, especially with SD card devices) and you don't have to sync in post if time is an issue. It also gives you a genuine headphone jack on the Tascam to monitor sound with, and it's a pretty good jack- the levels are strong enough to listen to the audio critically. A good way to monitor audio is pretty essential, otherwise you're flying blind. Plus, the Tascam gives you individual analog gain control, so you can adjust the audio of 2 different mics separately- something the h4n lacks. That was the #1 reason I went with it.

If you don't want to put magic lantern on the camera, then you have to record sound double-system. That is, if you want good quality sound. Any other solution is a bit of a compromise. If you buy a good used pro XLR mic, you will already be ahead of the game, compared to the cheaper new mics that have mini jacks as their connector. There are plenty of 20-year-old shotgun mics that still sound better than the new "made for video camera" stuff, and you can find them used.

my 2 cents

hi guys. I thought I should report back my findings.
ok...
I decided to try using a FIIO 5 headphone amplifier with my Sennheiser G2 going into the T3i. Just as the diagram shows in one of the posts. I connected a Y cable-one side going to the T3i and the other one to the FIIO and then the headphones for monitoring. I know that this is not the same as monitoring the sound going into the camera but is close enough...as long as one takes the time and care to set up the audio manually in the T3i. I did some tests and by keeping the manual volume at a low level there is no hiss. So this works.

However...as part of a small corporate video, I needed to record several voice overs at a client's office and I decided to get a Tascam DR-100mkII, a Rode NTA1 mic and I build a DIY "Porta-booth" inspired box! Couldn't afford the real thing but I built one for under $45 cdn...So, since the Tascam DR-100mkII has a dedicated line out (which will go into the T3i) and a dedicated headphone out, there is no need for me to use the FIIO 5. I can say that the Tascam DR-100mkII has good preamps on their mics and there's no hiss with good mics-even dynamic mics sound good but not as powerful as the condenser Rode NT1a.
The next time I really have to record good sound with the T3i, I will try a regular cable from the line out to the T3i and only if the level is too hot then I would get the overpriced ($40!! ) attenuator cable that is meant for the Tascam.
So much work to get decent audio! Hard for a one person show!
My Canon XHA1s sure can do all this just fine! Just recorded it a live show and I combined the built in external mic with sound coming from the audio board to get the whole atmosphere...simple plug and play with some menu adjustments...
It sure is fun.
I wonder if the Canon XF-100 is as good as the XHA1s when it comes to audio options?
hmm
E

I just installed ML 2.3 on my Canon 60D a few days ago. I am so excited. I took the composit video cable that came with my camera and shortened it by cutting it and then soldering on a 3.5 jack to the cable. You can also buy a prepaid cable for $50US. So far I can monitor the audio through ear phones very well. There are 2 separate gain/ volume controls as well as setting the left and right channels independently. also you can have many different combinations such as left audio from internal mic and right audio from a extenal mic, balanced audio internal or extenal. You can even with a headphone spitter adapter use 2 mic one for the left channel and one for the right channel.
I have yet to record something to check the gain to noise ratio. So I can't comment on that issue.. But sounds great through my Earphones. I hear no hiss or anything.. ML also auto detects when I plug in the audio adapter cable..
I believe that I had to disable AGC setting in order to get independent Right and Left control.
If you have not made your decision on which camera to buy rear the ML users manual for the 60D to see other great features of this Firmware.

John Gerard

Are you using a secondary recorder and syncing in post or are you using a Beactek or Juicelink unit with AGC disabling? I'm considering a 550d with a Beachtek unit for balanced inputs and a headphone jack. I know the 60d now has manual gain, but how are you monitoring the sound since it does not have a headphone jack? I wouldn't consider the 60d based on this fact alone.