I know this is difficult to answer precisely, but how long roughly will Sony support the XDCAM optical format?
More specifically, how long will it be possible to get the Sony PDW F350 camera serviced? As some of you may be aware I've been asking a lot of questions on the forum lately about various professional camera systems. I want to buy a replacement HD camera for our new company, but on a tight budget. The Sony PMW 350K is an option, and very nice it seems too, but a little bit too much for us at present. The Sony F350 could be a good choice, but only if the format will be around for some time.

Cheers
Simon

Have you looked at the PMW 320? 1/2" version of the 350 and far cheaper.

Don't worry, XDCAM optical is going to be around for many many years. In fact, Sony will be releasing several new optical products in the upcoming year. And even if they weren't going to release new cameras, they'd still continue servicing existing models for many years.

In my opinion, XDCAM optical is still the best recording medium on the market. Unlike flash memory cards (SxS, P2, SD, CF, etc.) you don't have to do do any data wrangling, multiple back ups, re-formatting to use again, etc.

For about $20 each, the XDCAM optical disc that you shoot on is your permanent master. You can put it on the shelf for storage, hand it to a client at the end of a shoot and not have to worry about getting it back, etc. Sony says it will last 50 years and can be reused up to 1000 times if that's what you choose to do.

I think the only reason optical drives are not built into every Sony camera is because they too big and require too much power for the smaller cameras to handle. Not to mention cost of manufacturing. If it wasn't for those three factors, every Sony camera would be recording on optical. Everyone I know whjo uses it would agree that it is the superior recording medium.


The bottom line is to choose the camera that best meets your needs in size, price, and features. Whether it records on SxS or optical shouldn't matter too much in your decision making. Both will be around for many years and both have proven workflows that are easy to master.

Many thanks Mike and Doug for your posts. I'm always impressed by the responses I get on this forum; always helpful and enlightening! First off; Mike I really meant to put the PMW 320k and not the 350k! The 350k would be fantastic but too much money for us at the moment. This new series of cameras by Sony do look the business though and one could well be a future used purchase down the line. Doug; your info is very reassuring and interesting and certainly helps our decision making.

Cheers
Simon

Simon, in terms of cost remember to factor in that you can get the 320 with the kit lens which may save some money. The SXS workflow can save you more as well. You'll need a lot of hard drives to back everything up properly but they are comparatively cheap now.

I haven't used the 320 but own a PMW 350 and have used a lot of EX1 and EX3s. I also used the F350 a few years back. The 320 will give you a far better viewfinder, several stops more low light, wireless receiver slot and lower power consumption. I hear that overall the PQ on the 320 is better than the PDW.

The PDW offers the disc workflow and CCD (so no CMOS rolling shutter).

Personally I think the 320 is well worth the extra money but if the PDW does what you need you can probably get a great deal. If you do go with the PDW, push hard for a bargain. I think it is beginning to be considered a little dated and remember to factor in a decent lens.

I agree with Doug that optical disks offer a very reliable workflow. As a professional photographer, I've worked with solid state media (compact flash cards) for the last ten years and it happened to me twice that data on a CF-card got damaged during the process of dumping to the computer. In one instance the pix on it were of the start of the Tour de France, so hard to reshoot...

This said, I think solid state media are the future, there's no doubt about that, but I still feel more comfortable using my PDW-F350 (that I bought second hand for the price of a new Sony Z7) than a card-based cam. It offers the same non-tape, clip-based workflow and that is a tremendous advantage. Moreover I can put the optical disk on the shelf and take it back whenever I need it.

Of course, I have been looking into the PMW-320, as my 1/2 inch lenses will still fit on that camera, and I would welcome the lower weight and power consumption. The build quality of my PDW-F350 appears a little more solid. So for the time being, I'll stick with this marvellous camera and it's optical disks.

Great info Mike and Luc; it really is a hard decision! Both the PDW F350 and the PMW 320 are obviously lovely cameras and very capable. The used PDW F350 I have my eye on is a complete kit and ready to shoot at £8000 (which includes free shipping). I don't know if that seems expensive? The hours are quite low and in the 600 region for the laser and it has a decent Canon lens. With the PMW 320 I would have to pay around £3000 more, but then it would be new and guaranteed. Is it possible to transfer video files straight from the memory card of the camera to a Mac computer?

Cheers
Simon

Hi Simon – Yes you can easily drop the footage into your computer from the card – you will require XDCAM Transfer software which you can download from the Sony website.

I see that the F350 is drawing you in… If it were me, I would not pay £8000 for it, so if that will be your final decision then I would do some haggling.

However, there is another thing you may need to consider. If you use an optical disc camera, while you can use the Firewire port from the camera to off-load your data to the computer you will find that the Sony U1 drive (approx 2 grand, not sure of the actual price these days) much quicker and more convenient. This will also keep the hours off of the optical drive mechanism. You can see that unit on the link I gave you before.

Regards: Stu
Welcome to Studio Scotland (http://www.studioscotland.com)

You can get the 320 with lens for around £8,400+VAT (£9,870 inc VAT). Personally I think it is worth the extra unless CCD over CMOS or disc workflow is critical to you.

If you are buying the U1, the 350 becomes more expensive than the 320. SXS cards are an upfront cost but you'll probably be saving money within a year. You can probably save a few hundred on batteries with the 320 as well.

I agree with Luc the the PDW F350 is probably slightly better built but the 320 is still solid and SXS has less to go wrong than the disc mechanism. And of course, the 320 at that price is new!

To complicate your choice even a little more: you're not obliged to use SxS cards in the 320. Sony's selling adapters as well for SDHC as for their propriety Memory Sticks. These are much cheaper than the SxS and the only feature you lose is the slow motion. I suspect SDHC cards will eventually be less expensive than optical disks, so you could then afford to shelve them as 'masters' when you're done shooting.

But... if you decide for the PDW-F350, I would advise not to pay more than 6000,- euro's without lens. I compared SD to HD lenses in the 1/2 inch format and I found that some of the older Canon's - like the H20ax6 - perform very well, even in HD. You can get these very cheap. This particular lens was sharper than the Fujinon HD-wide-angle that I had.

Cheers for that Luc - interesting. The F350 I'm looking at has a Canon J15a x 8B IRS HD lens with it plus batteries and charger. Is this a good lens?

I'm also interested to compare the build quality of the PMW 350 (or 320) with the PDW F350. There have been references to this in this thread. Does the PMW series use a lot of external plastic or is it mostly metal? Likewise, what about the PDW F350. I have to say that from photos the PDW camera looks as though it has a metal casing, but it is hard to tell with the PMW series. We need a camera that can withstand a few knocks on location. I'm not a great fan of light weight plastic in cameras.

I haven't tested that lens, so I cannot confirm if it is sharp enough for HD acquisition, but it sell second hand for about 125 $, so it won't do much harm if it's not up to your expectations. Usually these older Canon lenses are very sharp. Anyway, I wouldn't pay much more for a PDW-F350 with this lens and some batteries than 6500,- euros.

I checked out the PMW-320 and -350 a few times at my dealers and there is a lot of plastic on the sides. It weighs about half the weight of the PDW-F350, so that's not so surprising. But, nowadays some polymer materials are stronger than steel, so it all depends of what material Sony has used here.

After all, we're comparing two camera's that are not comparable in price. As I said, you can find a very good PDW-F350 with low laser hours (and with a decent lens) for max. 8000,- euros, whereas a new PMW-320 with the dedicated Fujinon lens will still set you back at least 13.000 euros. On paper, the image of the PMW-320 is certainly better (1920 x 1080 instead of 1440 x 1080 of the PDW), but I've seen clips made with my PDW-F350 projected on a 6 meters wide screen, and the sharpness + overall image quality is just awesome. So I wonder if the naked eye would see any difference.

Moreover, as a professional stills photographer, who has been buying digital still cams since 2000, I have learned that cramming more pixels in a small chip inevitably means more noise. The best you could do is compare some clips from both cameras.

What I will do - but then again I'm only a hobbyist in video - is wait a few years until the PMW-320 will be available on the second hand market and buy one then. Mainly for the difference in weight and the power consumption, compared to my beloved PDW-F350. I'll miss the optical disk though...

The F350 I'm looking at has a Canon J15a x 8B IRS HD lens with it plus batteries and charger. Is this a good lens?


The J15 is an SD 2/3" lens. 8mm at the wide end won't be very wide angle if used on a 1/2" camera. It wouldn't be my choice of lens for the F350.

This probably means that the camera comes with an adaptor from 1/2 to 2/3 inch, which is not bad, because that's a rather expensive part... and it opens opportunities to buy the more readily available 2/3 inch lenses. Only for real wide-angle shots, you would have to buy an original 1/2 lens.

8mm is barely wide enough on a 2/3" camera. On a 1/2" camera like the F350, it's going to be the equivalent of 11mm. There's no way most people could stand using that lens as their regular lens. In fact, I had a 2/3" adapter for my F350 a few years ago and used it once with my Fujinon 15x8 lens. Once was enough. The adapter was sold the next week. The main lens I have on my F350 is the Fujinon 18x5.5. That is a nice focal length for that camera.

On the subject of build quality, the PDW-F350 is built like a tank compared to the PMW-320, 350, and 500. Those other cameras feel light and cheap, but I'm sure they hold up just fine with normal care. You find the same thing with professional SLRs. The high-end models feel rock-solid, and as you work your way down the line in price, they progressively feel lighter and cheaper. All the SxS cameras feel lighter and cheaper than the optical cameras.

Cheers for posting Mike, Luc and Doug! What great bunch you are to have around!

So it would seem that the camera I'm looking at is about two grand over priced with an unsuitable SD lens on the front. It would appear however, that the PDW F350 would be a very suitable candidate for our needs with excellent quality pictures and a robust build. The camera we choose will often be in the hands of inexperienced operators (under expert supervision) so it does need to be a solid machine. Doug I couldn't agree more about digital SLR's; the high end stuff is still built like the film cameras of old, such as the Nikon F4. I've got a Nikon D3 which is of course very solid and professional feeling. You just can't beat that metal feel...

This one has been on the market for some time. Perhaps worth while to make an offer?
Sony - PDW-F350 - Sony PDW-F350L - Top-of-the-range XDCAM HD Camcorder (http://www.tv-bay.com/FORSALE/Cameras/HD/Sony/PDW-F350/74206.html)

Mind you, I don't know the seller, so you'll have to check him - or her- out yourself.

Those other cameras feel light and cheap, but I'm sure they hold up just fine with normal care.
AFAIK although this might seem to be the case the material is actually stronger than the stuff used on other cameras. Can't remember details though, but it is designed to behave in a certain way during impacts I think.

Maybe the material they are made of is stronger, I won't argue with that, but the EX cameras certainly FEEL cheaper and lighter. I much prefer a camera with more mass and a heavy-duty feel to it. I'd rather have an EX1 that weighed a pound or two more in exchange for a sturdier build and less plastic.

If you compare the switches, knobs, doors, etc. on a PMW-EX1R/EX3/320/35/500 to a F350/800/700 there's a huge difference in how the cameras feel to the touch.

I'm not saying the EX cameras won't hold up (my own cameras have done great), but they aren't in the same league as the optical cameras.

Sorry Doug, I was referring to the PMW-350 not the smaller EX cameras (which can and do crack pretty badly in some cases!) Not sure I've really noticed a difference in the switches. With regard to the PDW-F350 I remember that feeling a bit lighter and cheaper than my old PDW-510 in terms of the body.

But in as far as the 320 and 350 go (and I'd imagine the 500, which is lets face it in the same price range as the 700 and should be its equal in build quality) my understanding is that the material for those cameras is a new type, that might feel lighter and less durable but is in fact much better than the old stuff. From what I gather anyway.

If the camera is lighter, yet stronger I would much rather have those characteristics.

The camera we choose will often be in the hands of inexperienced operators (under expert supervision) so it does need to be a solid machine....
But a PMW has no moving parts, which should give better reliability, and a new camera would give me more confidence than anything that's secondhand. (And better resale value.)

You also need to factor in how you'll get the material off the disc. A separate XDCAM disc reader will swallow up most of the money you're hoping to save, and using the camera to transfer increases the wear on the camera mechanism. (As well as meaning it can't be used for filming at the same time.)

So my feeling is also in favour of the PMW320 if you can't afford the PMW350. The only compelling reason to go with disc for acquisition is if you really want what you shoot onto to be it's own archive.

Many thanks everyone for your posts! I've found another PDW F350 with a Fujinon XS 17 X 5.5 BRM-M38 HD lens plus batteries, charger and a Sony tripod baseplate with 12 months guarantee for £9,400. Is that too high for this kit? The camera has around 600 hours use. Even though we can transfer video files directly from the camera to a computer, I suppose a portable XDCAM disc reader might be preferable... adding to the overall cost.

I've found another PDW F350 with a Fujinon XS 17 X 5.5 BRM-M38 HD lens plus batteries, charger and a Sony tripod baseplate with 12 months guarantee for £9,400.

Once you factor in the U1 drive, that's more that a NEW 320 which IMO is the superior camera. Do you need the disc system? If not, I would certainly go for the 320.

I'm not so sure that the 320 is the superior camera, imagewise... I still prefer the image of CCD's over those from CMOS-chips. If you add a good lens to the 320, it will cost more than 10.000 £. And there are some second hand U1 drives on the market for the moment, so that doesn't have to be such a big investement. But again: the light weight and the low power consumption of the 320 are very tempting. ... If everyone who uses it adopts a rigid back-up disciplin right from the start.

I haven't used the 320 yet but I've heard it is a little better than the EX3 (due to the processing). I think that the EX3 is noticeably better than the PDW F350, particularly in low light. Not massively difference but noticeably. Of course the rolling shutter can be an issue for certain shooting, so it is a personal choice.

Once you factor in the U1 drive, that's more that a NEW 320 which IMO is the superior camera. Do you need the disc system? If not, I would certainly go for the 320.

Not me.
Okay, it's a very close call, but in the end, I'd go for the F350 with that XS 15x5.5 Fujinon lens. With that package you get a superior lens, a time-saving and fool-proof optical workflow, a more rugged camera, CCDs, 1080P 60fps overcranking, more professional menu options and other functions, etc.

Yes, the PDW-U1 optical drive will add to the cost, but, you now won't have to spend tons of money on SxS cards (and I don't recommend shooting on anything but genuine SxS cards) or a Nexto, a PXU-MS40, or any other accessories like that. And even if you choose the 320, you're still looking at spending $250 on a SxS reader/writer at the very minimum -- plus tons of hard drives over the course of the life of the camera. The F350 will save you hours of data wrangling every week.

And finally, don't forget that the PDW-U1 drive can be used to safely archive and backup any kind of data files you want to put on optical discs so it's not just for video clips.

Here's my way of looking at it: Shooting on memory cards is a necessary evil for the smaller camcorders because of the size, weight, and power requirements of an optical drive. So if you need a small camera like an EX1R or EX3 it makes perfect sense. But if you're shopping for a shoulder-mount camera, you can't beat optical.

Couldn't agree more with Doug. I wish I had something like the optical disk in my daily work with still camera's... Would take the constant backing-up worries away. Would be just like 'archiving the film negative' in the good old days.

Anyway, if you would prefer the solid state workflow, I'd suggest you take a look at this: here's a PMW-350 for 10.600 £ (+ VAT): Sony - PMW 350K XDCAM EX - Sony PMW-350K (PMW-350, PMW 350) XDCAM EX 2/3inch 3-CMOS Shoulder-mount camcorder c/w Fujinon 16x HD lens with AF (http://www.tvbay.com/FORSALE/Cameras/HD/Sony/PMW_350K_XDCAM_EX/120104.html)

Many thanks for your posts Mike, Doug and Luc - always appreciated. Luc, I had a look at the advert link that you gave and there is not a price mentioned, as the owner asks for an offer. Did you contact him to find the price mentioned in your post?

Yep, I did and that's the quote I got. It's an asking price, so probably there's still room for negotiation.

Wow, I'd grab that PMW-350!

In short they are all good cameras with different workflows. I nearly bought an F350 a few years ago but the low light wasn't good enough in the end so I got a DSR450 instead.

There's a lot of good factual info in this thread and in the end it is what suits your workflow best. If low light ability is important, like it is with me, be wary of the F350.

In terms of costs, I think SXS workflow is cheaper than disc. I have about £600 worth of cards - 2 32GB and 3 SD cards for emergency use. I read them on my laptop, so no reader required and copy the BPAV folders to an external drive. From that drive I then use XDCAM Transfer to create .movs on my raid and the first drive is stored as the BPAV archive. The discs are a lot slower, about 2-3x realtime on a U1 but do provide an immediate archive but cost about £20/hour.

Hi there,

time for me to get involved, too.

I love both ways - SXS and the ProDisc. Why?

• I own a Z7 (HDV), EX1 (SXS) and PDW-F330 + nowadays a PDW700.

Will I sell the 330? NO. Even if it records only at 1440 , it is a professional camera + 4ch

PCM audio etc. Workflow is the same as with 700, so its a good 2nd camera for me.


• Will I go to SxS completely? NO.

When I look into my archive, I see roughly 200 discs at the moment. This data being archived

to a raid it would need 200 x 23GB x 2times (raid) = 9.2 Terrabytes including a kind of

archive strategy (how to find files, keep HDs alive regularly etc. etc.) to run from

harddrives. It also means SPENDING TIME on backups and archive.
Thats not my way. I am happy with swapping ProDiscs , buy them cheap and have my own offline

archive "on the shelf".

Second, the "instant proxy" recording to disk or USB Stick allows me to hand some preview

videos to my clients or writers directly after a job - cant do with flashmedia (today).
Some of my clients preselect footage with these proxies, and thats a big help for me as

well.


ON THE OTHER HAND I like using SxS media for instant edit. SxS cameras are versatile and the

bigger ones (PMW320/350) really use less power (thats relating to CMOS too) than the disk

cameras.

So - again - its a matter of choosing the right tool for the job. Unfortunately I cant

afford to have all cameras (well I already own a bunch...).

Thats where your question comes in.
As far as I can see, Sony pushes the disc even more - and sees it as a computer storage

technology for archiving (data, Video, SxS cards, whatever) by enlarging the amount of data

space. Surely the big versions (with many layers) wont find a way into the camera, but the

idea of the professional disks is future proof. For me its the only NON-LINEAR professional

TAPELESS data storage solution in the market. Unlike DVD-Rs professional disks are not

produced by hundred companies in thousand differents variations (up to cheapest organic

materials where DVDs rot by aging) but only in license by a handful of big-reputation

companies (Fuji, Sony, TDK, Maxell...)
It can stand temperature changings, dust, electrostatics (try a SDHC card and a "loaded"

balloon) , xray, water /ice, etc. Its NOT formatted like windows data units, but with more

intelligent data structures (2 content lists for example) for reliably archiving.

That all makes sense and I am happy to use a camera with such a media. Other flash media may

be more handy and faster in postproduction, but need some careful thinking about life "after

postproduction".

ULi

Sony : PMW-F3K (PMWF3K) : Product Overview : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/xdcamcamcorders/pmw-f3k/overview)

Now that their new f3 can record all types of the Sony EX and XD formats and they can be stored on a 128 gig optical, I think Optical will always be around. Take it from me that of all the productions Im working on or have worked on, all needed a permanent archive period.

You will have years of support for the optical workflow and hardware. It's not going anywhere soon. Like Doug, I am and have been a fan of the optical disc from the get-go. It's why I originally chose it over P2. Many similar benefits in terms of being tapeless, but none of the cost worries. Much harder to physically misplace an optical disk vs. memory card.

I can remember working the EX workflow pavillion at NAB 2008 for Sony and being very nervous about keeping up with a box of FIVE SxS cards for the entire show. I wouldn't have sweated one bit over 5 discs.

Just my opinion, FWIW.

regards,

-gb-

another example?

Today I have a concert shoot - probably 2hrs + encores.

I have 6 Disks (HD422: 4.5hrs , 90€) with me and a friend brings an EX1 with 32GB + 8GB. I also own a 8GB card. Thats 3hrs recording time (hundreds €) for the ex and could be too little. So we (again) think about copying the 32 when its full.

Professional Disk : Swap and go.

Uli

Many thanks to everyone again for your fantastic input, and apologies for my late response! I've been away from the internet for a while working on a film project for this coming June.

Cheers
Simon