The possibility of the above is currently under discussion with interested parties.

At the moment I forsee it being aimed at support systems designed for the HD DSLR and lightweight HD camcorder sector.

From Vinten most probably the Vision Blue. Sachtler maybe the Cine DSLR, Libec most probably the new RS250, Miller - don't know, Manfrotto maybe the new 504HD.

The Shootout will be just that - a frank appraisal of the relative merits of each system, up sides and down sides, ease of use, value for money etc etc.

Each item on the check list (which is not finalised - any requests?) will be given a score out of 10, at the end each system (head, sticks, spreader and case) will be rated on it's final total score.

Each system (with the exception of the Vinten Vision Blue, which is already in the Articles section of DVinfo) will then get it's own full review, which will be a complete, warts and all, down to the last bolt deconstruction.

The questions for you all are these:

1. Any other choices for test subjects?

2. Any specifc criteria for rating or should I just make it up as I go?

3. Any other relevant comments.

As the discussions are at an early stage I cannot promise this will come off, as there is a considerable amount of string pulling (and possibly arm twisting) required, but we'll do our best.

I look forward to your comments and suggestions.

Thanks,


CS

Vinton Vision Blue and Sachtler Cine DSLR for sure. The Manfrotto 504 should probably be included, as folks like me, who owned previous 500-series heads, are skeptical of any sub-thousand dollar Manfrotto head being suitable for HD work. Once you get over $1 thousand for a head, then you might as well spend a wee-bit more and get a Sachtler or some other true fluid head with a great reputation. Don't know about Miller choices.

A tripod shootout sounds great Chris!

I am in the market for a new tripod as my old Libec LS22 is slowly and surely biting the dust (it was never meant to hold up an XL2, but did okay. And now I'm praying it'll still hold up my new XF300).

Looking forward to your reviews!

As one interested in natural history where the use of long lenses is common I would like to see a measure of slow panning ability. The measure would need to take into account of sensor size as well as focal length. There would also need to be some agreement on what constitutes a slow pan e.g. an agreed number of seconds to pan the camera's field of view.

Thanks for your comments.

The Manfrotto 504 has me intrigued, as it genuinly appears to be a break from their rather checkered past.

I decided to include it, not because I think it will match the Vinten and Sachter offerings (although I'm not pre judging anything here) but to offer a more budget unit that passes the "value for money" criteria.

Alastair

I spent a serious chunk of time investigating how to develope test equipment that could measure pan/ tilt smoothness and drag linearity but eventually canned it as at the time there wasn't anything to test.

I'll see if I can borrow one from one of the participants, they all have them. Don't fancy my chances tho' somehow.

Might just have to rely on my right arm and an eagle eye on my 46" HD screen!

I agree that it is an exceedingly important part of any test.

Keep those cards and letters coming in folks, every post is sending a message to the prospective participants.


CS

PS: Anyone want to nominate a Miller system for this?

The 504HD has had a lot of good reviews. CVP's "The Iris" magazine was complimentary, as was Nigel Cooper in his DVuser.co.uk review. It does seem interesting, but there I have a certain amount of disbelief given their past performance.

I am beyond all that... I am seeking the ultimate "tinycam" tripod. Tinycam* folks who still want a really good tripod are not catered for at all really (with the exception of the Sachtler FSB-2). But that's a whole different shootout, I guess.



*Tinycam being JVC HM100, Panasonic HMC4x, and the new Canon XF-105 or whatever it's called.

Rather than go seriously "off piste" in this thread, I've sent you a mail on the subject of dinky cam support.

The answer is out there, just have to buy it second hand is all.

Come on boys and girls, this thread is getting hit more often than the bumpers on my missus' car, lets have your comments and suggestions.


CS

Chris,

(Sorry for detracting!)

Defintely I'd like to see the Millers in your tests. They make a lot of noise about their single-section legs for portability and going real low, but I haven't seen any serious comparisons.

For test subjects, I liked Nigel Cooper's idea of using a brick wall to show the bounce back/drift back of a head. The brick pattern makes it really easy to see and even measure the effect.

And of course, a handy comaprison table listing all the features the rivals have, but that goes without saying. Or maybe even a "Soucy Says" mini-comment or star rating for each performance area.

Think I might give the "Soucy Says" thing a swerve, a bit too much like taking a very public on - line Rorschach test. No telling what horrors it might unearth.

I have the bounce back/ drift thing well in hand. Shan't go into details as it might scare the horses.

I can't understand why we haven't had any suggestions for which Miller rig. Someone out there must have one they rave about or want for their DSLR or light camcorder rig.

If it comes down to the wire I'll see what Milller themselves suggest.

Yeh, I'll be doing the tables thing, or rather, my missus will, she loves doing spreadsheets even more than dinging her car.

Have everything in there but the kitchen sink and I might just toss that in too for a bit of gratuitous sex and violence.


CS

I would also like to see some mentioning of build quality. I know it`s impossible to test durability over a long time span I this test, but apart from sometimes a smoother operation durability is what sets Sachtler/Vinten(and maybe miller, no experience with them) apart from libec and manfrotto. Also I look forward to how the newer budget alternatives perform, the older ones I`ve used usually ends up broken.....or maybe that`s just me finding it fun to see how gear copes with -40 Celsius....

Also, just an idea, what about bringing in some larger systems as reference? The new Sachtler Video 18 S1 can cope with low weights, and any other alternatives from say oconnor.

For the Miller you would probably want to go with the SOLO DV20 kit. Their standard head for under 20 lb cameras and the carbon fiber legs.

However, you might want to decide what kind of legs you want to go with, either ENG style or tube DOC/field style.

Couple of problems with your suggestion re larger systems.

The first minor one is that the Sachtler would mean they get two bites of the cherry, tho' the main problem is that the 18 S1 may be rated for 2 kg, but that's at a COG of 150 mm, whilst most rig in use here on DVinfo have a COG no higher than a gnats kneecap.

I know the Sachtler site says they tested it with a HD DSLR rig, but it doesn't say exactly just how pimped the rig was to do it, but I think it must have been extensive.

As for Oconnor, well, as you probably know, the smallest head they do has a minimum counterbalnce weight of 15 lbs at a staggering 14 inches COG. With the light, low COG rigs standard here it could be used as a more succesful space launch vehicle than a Saturn 5 rocket.

As for durability, well, I will, of course be reporting any "It just came away in my hand, Guv." moments, not that I'm expecting many.

Part of the problem is that durability is what it is till you break it, and I feel sure the respective companies concerned would take a pretty dim view of any destruction testing.

I would also be very wary about reporting perceived durability as it can't be backed up with facts and is thus open to the accusation of bias, which I'm really hoping I can keep out of the entire project.

Thanks for your suggestions tho'.


CS

Chris,

I am so glad you are doing this, I'm ready to purchase my first serious tripod and want to get it right. Not sure if you're looking for input on what to test or ways of testing. My major concern is smoothness of slow pan and slow tilt and the lack of spring back when pressure is relieved. Knowing you have infinite talent, time, and budget, it would be great to test each tilt direction separately and in concert with each pan direction both during movement (releasing weights to fall) and after releasing tension (burning string to sever).

All and any input is appreciated, the more the merrier.

Not sure about the "infinite talent, time, and budget", big mouth is all, or at least, most.

As I said in an earlier post, the equipment to test this stuff is available to all the manufacturers (that I'm hoping to review) that I'm aware of, and I ditched attempts to make my own as it was early days before I'd managed to get onto any of the manufacturers radar.

Things are different now, but untill I am in a postion where I know there will be a steady supply of new gear to test (which I sincerely hope will happen, especially if I can pull this off) I simply can't and won't invest time and (lots of) money re - inventing the wheel.

So, as it stands, unless one of the manufacturers concerned care to ship me one of their test units (exceedingly unlikely) you're stuck with my take on the units handling (subjective tho' that may be, much to my discomfort.)

HOWEVER, as I am probably the most anal retentive shooter in the known Universe when it comes to camera support handling, if there's a flaw, it will be noted.

Can't really say fairer than that.

Because of the lack of indepent scientific verification, I must rely on sheer skill on my part to sort the wheat from the chaff here, DVinfo'ers either take that on trust or not.

I am very aware that hundreds of people brouse this site daily and take the information contained herein seriously indeed.

As such, my responsibility for every post or review is huge, and I take it extremely seriously indeed when doing any of them.

I don't think I'm going to let anyone down here, if I say so myself, I'm bloody good at what I do.

Heck, let's see how it pans out, I still haven't got all the pigeons in a row yet, they're a particularly hard bunch to coral, even for me.

(And it would appear that my UK "fixer" has gone AWOL for reasons unknown, I'll find out eventually)

Thanks for your input, Roger.

Chris,

By the way, I really enjoyed your article on the Vision Blue. There is no substitute for your hands-on appraisal; wouldn't want to forfeit that for the best test gear. I'm a bit upside down from you, I research, develop, and test equipment as a profession and pursue videography as a hobby.

I spent a little time this morning trying to rig a poor man's pan and tilt tester with a graduated target across the yard to measure spring-back. It totally bombed. I think your instinct was right that without sophisticated gear it is totally up to a set of talented hands and eyes. No pressure but we're all counting on you!

......for your confidence.

I'll certainly do my best.


CS

Couple of problems with your suggestion re larger systems.

The first minor one is that the Sachtler would mean they get two bites of the cherry, tho' the main problem is that the 18 S1 may be rated for 2 kg, but that's at a COG of 150 mm, whilst most rig in use here on DVinfo have a COG no higher than a gnats kneecap.

I know the Sachtler site says they tested it with a HD DSLR rig, but it doesn't say exactly just how pimped the rig was to do it, but I think it must have been extensive.

As for Oconnor, well, as you probably know, the smallest head they do has a minimum counterbalnce weight of 15 lbs at a staggering 14 inches COG. With the light, low COG rigs standard here it could be used as a more succesful space launch vehicle than a Saturn 5 rocket.

I didn`t catch the COG when i looked at the website...but still a 5d, lens, mattebox, rails and a small monitor usually weighs in at more than 2kg, more likely around 3kg. Probably what sachtler tested it with.
Forgot that oconnor`s "smaller" heads are quite heavy duty.

As for who`s getting a bite of the cherry, Vitecgroup will be getting a large bite of that cherry anyway with Vinten, Sachtler, gitzo and manfrotto under their belt.

As for durability, well, I will, of course be reporting any "It just came away in my hand, Guv." moments, not that I'm expecting many.

Part of the problem is that durability is what it is till you break it, and I feel sure the respective companies concerned would take a pretty dim view of any destruction testing.

I know testing durability is a bit difficult, especially without actually breaking stuff. I feel though that a lot of users skimp on the tripod kit just because a cheaper kit feels almost as good as a miller/vinten/sachtler when completely new, and usually find the kit worn out after a year and still don`t get why the premium ones cost x amount more.

Chris, I am looking forward to your review of this equipment. I have reached the stage in my work where I need a quality head and tripod for my XHA1. Based on the outcome your writeups, I will make my purchase. Thanks for doing this.

I feel though that a lot of users skimp on the tripod kit just because a cheaper kit feels almost as good as a miller/vinten/sachtler when completely new, and usually find the kit worn out after a year and still don`t get why the premium ones cost x amount more.

I don't agree, to be honest.

I believe the real reason behind most cheap support purchases, apart from finance, is ignorance, pure and simple.

I don't have the numbers, but I believe that if you exclude those who simply cannot afford a better system even tho' they may know far better systems are available, 99% of cheap system buyers have never seen or used a pro level tripod and head, so are simply utterly ignorant of the different handling characteristics and build quality of a pro system.

Given the limited chances most, if not all, buyers have to get "hands on" experience before they lay out the readies, and the camera supports cinderella status, seen but not written about by practically anyone till the last couple of years, how is anyone supposed to get educated in the realities of this weird market?

When I say "weird" I mean it. Vinten or Sachtler release a brand new support system, how many reviews will you see (well, apart from mine if I can prise a unit off them)?

Pick a camera, any camera in the pro or semi market. How many reviews? Bods fall over themselves across the planet for every single release. Then look at the respective hit and post rate of new camera releases here on DVinfo and compare that to the same figures for my latest VB review.

So few of the people buying these semi pro or consumer cameras even bother to drop into the camera support forum here on DVinfo, it's something of a joke.

To be frank, unless every camera review on the planet was opened with the phrase: "Your camera is only as good as your camera support", I don't see things changing much.

BUT, at least the information IS starting to become more available, which is a major leap forward.

That old saying "You can lead a horse to water etc..........." holds here, but I'll keep on doing my tiny bit to keep the info flowing, just in case.

Of course, there is a historical background to all this.

Go back 20 years or so. Who, apart from the broadcasters and film makers on big ticket items would have need of such pro camera support? Practically no one.

Fast Forward to today. Joe Blow just about anywhere on the planet has access to camera technology undreamt of, even by the broadcasters of 20 years ago, at prices that are peanuts compared to their image quality.

What does Joe Blow know about film making and what it really takes to do it properly?

Zilch.

Which is where this "I just bought an xyz123 HD camera for $10k, what tripod can I get for $200 or less?" comes in, ignorance, pure and simple.

I'll keep chipping away, but I can't make that damn horse drink if it doesn't want to.


CS

You obviously posted whilst I was penning that last opus, so I missed it till now.

The XH A1 market is pretty well where I want to concentrate for this, as that is far and away the biggest growth area in the semi pro realm.

The Vinten VB did a good job, but I, personaly, am really interested to see how the competition fares, it should be one heck of a shoot out if I can put all my ducks in a row with it.

Right now I'm still trying to catch the little quacking buggers, forget rows or even rowdy.

Never fear, I'm incredibly persistant (a little like Agent Orange with a keyboard) and don't know the meaning of "no".

I would, however, be a little more sanguin if I could establish just where, exactly, my UK fixer in all this has dissapeared to, a bit of a worry and no mistake.

I'm working on it.

If the need for a new support means decisions being taken before this bears fruit, don't hesitate to ask.


CS

Chris, do you have an rough ETA on the shootout, given some assumption for getting your hands on the various contestants?

I've been watching B&H on the Vision Blue. They now have pricing but no details or believable delivery time frame. It's stuck on "Usually takes 2 - 4 weeks". It's unusual for B&H to not be really clear, but they only show a small portion of the tripod with a title like "Vision Blue Mid Level Spreader" which isn't even clear whether the item includes the bag or head, but the item number indicates the complete kit.

Did Vinten give you a physical release date for production hardware to outlets?

Heya Chris,

If you can make it up to Chch, I can put a miller ds-10 and a vinten vision 8 under your camera. And a 501 as a "base model". I have some other mates with stuff like the ds-20 that I could probably talk into a loan.

Another option is to put you on the end of my crane and I'll do the figure 8 with you AND the heads while you try to keep the subject centered in frame. Instead of how well you can trace a line, the videos would show the subject staying in the same place as the perspective changed, so it would be pretty easy to see when a tripod stuck or jerked.

Just a thought.

cheers,
-a

I don't agree, to be honest.
I believe the real reason behind most cheap support purchases, apart from finance, is ignorance, pure and simple.

I don't have the numbers, but I believe that if you exclude those who simply cannot afford a better system even tho' they may know far better systems are available, 99% of cheap system buyers have never seen or used a pro level tripod and head, so are simply utterly ignorant of the different handling characteristics and build quality of a pro system.


I think it's ignorance, but also blind optimism. Every tripod purchase I made, in hindsight, was 90% optimism. "It costs £200 more than the last one, this is the ultimate". I knew that the Sachtlers, Vinten Visions etc. were the best, but I didn't think I had to spend that sort of cash to get good performance.

I had this debate with some "dabblers" at work when I was getting my Sachtler packed up for sale. They couldn't believe how much the tripod cost, and why on earth anyone would need that. Some of them were half-convinced when they felt the quality of the action, but still couldn't believe it. They probably think that the image stabilisation in their tiny camcorder is enough.

Another thing is the procession of tripods that appear in Asda, Argos and Jessops with "Pro" in their name that somehow makes people think they are professional level. A well-meaning friend, knowing that I'm a video hobbyist, told me excitedly about the really great "pro" tripod in Asda... a Hama model for £20!

It's been said before, electronics get cheaper and better all the time, but it's impossible to miniaturise and cheapen high quality physical engineering like a tripod.

I'm now back on a 501HDV which is... er, interesting. A smaller Sachtler FSB or second-hand Vinten Vision is on the cards after Christmas, I can't stand the pain...

I've already posted here on DVinfo that the B&H web site has made a dogs dinner of the VB release, why, I simply don't know.

Having pointed this out to B&H, the answer was the much expected, well, here it is in person:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Chris, my name is Dennis L:

Thank you for contacting the E-Mail Sales Department at B&H Photo Video and Pro Audio.

At this time we don't sell the complete Vision Blue line. I do not have information as to when we will be carrying them. Please check back soon.

Please let us know if there is anything else we can assist you with.

Thank you, we appreciate your business.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About as much use as a bucket on the Titantic.

More than that I cannot say, as I simply don't know.

I can't even get in touch with Peter Harman at Vinten to find out what he knows, as he's dissapered without trace.

As for the shootout, heck, who the hell knows?

I've somehow got to get Vinten, Sachtler, Libec, Miller and Manfrotto to even agree to the whole idea first, and that's possibly why Peter has suddenly done a runner, gone missing or been done away with, as the others were after his whatsits for suggesting it in the first place.

The last information I had was that VB would be available by the end of September, and a fat lot of good that info was.

I'm getting more than a tad cross, as this is now starting to reflect badly on me, which I take great exception to.

B&H should get their act together and sort it, pronto. Their sites presentation of VB is a disgrace, they've been told, you've read the response, utter bollocks.

Sorry B&H, you've got my mail and phone number, if you need my help to get your web site updated, get in touch, but for now, it does you no service whatsoever.

Don't know where you are just now Henry (Possner - from B&H) but I'd make a well overdue visit here and start kicking some serious butt back at home base, as this rediculous example of auto response to a mail enquiry is what makes serial killers out of "just plain folks" (tho' as I'm not "just plain folks" and am on the other side of the planet, I don't think anyone has too much to worry about on my account).

Roger, I appologise that VB isn't available, and heck, all I did was review it!

However, I feel let down all the same, as this should have gone off with the usual Vitec "smooth in motion" sale intro, and somewhere, it's simply fallen off the truck.

If I can ever get anyone at Vitec to respond to mails, maybe I'll know more, but for the moment, I'm blind on this.


CS

Chris,

I don't think anyone is associating your brand with the Vision Blue release hiccups. You test drove a cool pre-production model. Now it's their responsibility to manufacture and coordinate with their outlets to deliver.

As I look at the landscape of cameras and tripods, I'm seeing a different playing field for tight budget decisions. I was a long time XHA1 user and tried various "mid-line" tripods like the 503HDV and Marshall M25. Strangely the lowly Velbon 607 out performed them consistently with smooth pans and tilts and costs only $70. It and the others were unreliable for smooth continuous footage where you have to actually show the start and stop of pans and tilts. So let's say for the time I had a good prosumer camera and smooth-when-moving tripod for $3,000. A camera with good controls and good image were important.

With a similar budget and today's options better outcomes are possible; we're being drawn into a 2 camera world. A small sensor camera to faithfully capture broad shots and uncontrolled action with forgiving focus, and a large sensor camera for art and emotion. So with a small budget, for artistic purposes one might choose a great tripod and a t2i and some good glass, or for continuous footage using a great tripod and a Panasonic TM700 camera. Or..... get both cameras, one great tripod like the Vision Blue, a monopod like the Bogen 561 for highly mobile highlight footage, and a cheap tripod like the 607 for unmanned or low-manned wide cover shots when using both cameras simultaneously. That goes a little over $3,000, but not by much.

In brief, removing the jitters, shakes, spring-back, and providing smooth pans and tilts is the next step for me to improve my footage. Even with more money it seems smarter than than upgrading from a 7D to a AF100 or replacing my now sold XHA1 with a XF300 or EX3R and using a cheap support.

I am not a pro, but here is what works for me and my teen-aged son:

HDV

Sachtler FSB-6 on Sacther CF legs (with mid-spreader) for XH-A1s
Sactler FSB-2 on Gitzo CF legs for HV 40 (tripod costs more than camcorder, but results speak volumes. The Gitzo leg set w/ 75 mm bowl has no spreader, but is rock-solid, light, and can "go low" )

DSLR

The Sactler FSB-6 for Canon 7D's
The Sachtler FSB-2 for my son to use with his T2i (without too much additional adds - The eventual Marshall montitor will somehow be mounted on the tripod leg and not on the T2i)

The new Sachtler DSLR release plate will be available separately in November, and is supposed to also fit the side-release FSB heads, so I have one on order from Film Tools.

All i can tell you right now is that the we (I) inderestimated the initial demand. I know for certain that the USA & our distribution centre in Germany took delivery of a bunch of Vision blue systems only yesterday and there are more on the way.

I have had it confirmed, a couple of days ago, that Sachtler will be contributing to this shootout.

They have suggested the FSB 6, I've countered with the FSB6 AND the CINE DSLR.

However, as Barbara in Germany has buggered off on what is probably a well earned holiday, negotiations have gone somewhat quiet.

I'm curently writing to the distributors for Libec, Miller and Manfrotto to see what I can prise out of them.

On another subject, spent a very enjoyable day at the Wingatui Races today

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/80593/video-wingatui-race-day

and SKY Sports was all over the place like a rash.

Took it on myself to do a trawl of the many camera locations set up (tho' unattended every time I visited, trusting buggers) and discovered they were using Grass Valley HD camera's with Canon lenses on Miller sticks and heads, linked back to the OB van on HD SDI links.

First time I've ever seen a Miller, and there was a forest of the things.

Was pretty pissed I couldn't find a cameraman anywhere, as I really wanted to have a play with what was obviously the most recent purchase in the head department, nope, didn't get an ID of what it was.

Just goes to show tho', even the pro's can really screw up.

That latest head was sitting on a pretty decent set of sticks, with (gasp) a ground level spreader, on grass!

I gave it a bit of a push, and sure enough, rock and roll or what!

Amazing, this stuff is being beamed across the planet and they have a GLS on grass.

It did cross my mind (very briefly, mind) to borrow the entire setup for this review, but figured SKY might get just a tad pissed with losing 50 grands worth of camera and support.

But hey, I've actualy got to see a Miller in the flesh!

More news as it comes in.


CS

Out of selfish reasons, I'd like to see a Miller Arrow 25 with the Carbon Fiber Solo VJ legs included in the shootout if possible...

Cheers,

Just had word Miller is on board, system as yet undecided (shall keep your request in mind Leo, but I'll go with Millers choice for the category we're aiming at, tho' once this massive opus is done and dusted, I'm sure there will be other kit to review).

Contact with Manfrotto has been had, they're thinking about it.

More as it happens.

Keep your collective fingers crossed, I might just pull this off.


CS

Panavision NZ, dealers for both Manfrotto and Sachtller, are trying to source a Manfrotto 504HD, 546BK system.

Sachtler Germany (Barbara Joumann) are talking to Sachtler Singapore, who will be talking to Panavision NZ about sourcing a Sachtler FSB6 with both a FSB slide plate AND a Cine DSLR slide plate, thus getting two systems in one.

Still no word from Miller on their weapon of choice, but in due course...............

Libec are being strangely silent, so far.

Keep those fingers crossed, we're nearly there.


CS

PS: Talk about being busier than a one armed paper hanger when this lot turns up!!

Just heard from the MD of Australasias Libec distributor, got half his staff off sick so doing his own "one armed paper hanger" routine.

He's getting back to me on Monday.

I think we're going to do it!


CS

There is more to the Cine DSLR than just the QR plate. I will receive one of the new QR plates tomorrow (from FilmTools) to use with a FSB 6, but the Cine DSLR fluid head has additional properties.

There is more to the Cine DSLR than just the QR plate. I will receive one of the new QR plates tomorrow (from FilmTools) to use with a FSB 6, but the Cine DSLR fluid head has additional properties.

Sachtler can't get their hands on a full Cine DSLR (for review purposes) to save their lives; all units are currently pre sold, including their next shipment.

However, according to Barbara, the counterbalance stepping is almost identical, even tho' the spring rates are different, so, no, this won't be a "full Monty" on the Cine DSLR, but it's going to be a nice taster.

I'll get one down the track when they can actually get their hands on one.

Richard, cut me a bit of slack on this.

I've managed to get Vinten, Sachtler, Miller, Manfrotto and hopefully Libec to the table for (probably) one of the most sought after shootouts in camera support history (much to my utter amazement and something of a minor miracle in itself), the impossible takes just a little longer.

Which begs a question:

Leaving the Cine DSLR out for the moment, is there a consensus as to what other category of support DVinfoers would like to see?

Higher rated?

Lower rated?

You guys & gals tell me what you want, I'll ask the manufacturers/ dealers for it and do the necessary

Can't say fairer than that.


CS

I was not trying to be difficult - just trying to point out that the head is stated to be different as to settings. My apologies. I should get the new QR plate today, and will let you know what I think of it. I really appreciate what you are doing. I am curious to see if you find the 504 substantially different than all the previous manfrotto heads.

I have just started to review my website and redesign it. I have reviewed the new Miller Compass 20 and 25 carbon fibre tripods on there and was very very impressed.

The 25 is my prefered choice and I bought one on the spot.
i have nothing to do with Miller and have not used one before but know a lot of broadcast studios using them and reccomending them.
After problems with other manufacters I bought it the day the rep showed me.

In terms of support, communication and friendly service the UK rep is second to none.

Many other manufacteres have now moved sales and manufacture abroad and Im not as impressed but will keep trying them all out.
Im trying it out with a PMw 350 shortly.

As an ex defence engineer I like to know why I am buying things and using a laser pointer, stick on graduated scales and newton meters I could compare the drag pan tilt etc with others.
I also liked testing the legs for chater in high winds. Im now thinking of getting a compass 20 and a 150mm bowl variant.
Kit | Submersible Productions (http://www.submersibleproductions.co.uk/Kit/Compass25spcf/C25SPCF.php)


Happy filming.
Robin

I'm impressed.

You've upgraded my meagre knowledge of Miller immensly.

I'm even more keen to see what Miller are going to put up for the shootout than ever.

A tad abrupt on occasions but still emminently readable.

I learn something from every review I read, and did so from yours.

Keep up the good work.

Nice site, btw.


CS

Chris,

This review is getting out of control! : )

In your original post you asked for criteria to include in your test. In addition to general handling of a typcial 4-10 pound traditional camcorder. I'd like insight into the tripod's ability to balance and perform with the extreme front-CG caused by DSLR's with long lenses. Can we get true pro performance for under $1,500?

This picture demonstrates the new challenge of DSLR's on tripods (all-metal SMC Takumar 85-210mm):

DSLR's with long lenses. Can we get true pro performance for under $1,500?

Short answer - maybe.

Long answer - Going to be a struggle with that particular lens, but maybe just do-able.

As you can see from that lens' construction, there if no practical way to get an attachment point anywhere near the vertical COG of the entire setup.

Thus you're left with mounting the camera waaay back, almost certainly beyond any adjustment you can get with the slide plate, no matter how much fiddling, tho' I wouldn't bet my life on it.

So, you're talking of some sort of rail system, and the clock starts ticking on the support budget.

This leaves you with another BIIIG problem.

The entire weight of that lens is being applied (unless someone has come up with a better camera attachment system I don't know about) to one poxy 1/4" screw insert in the camera base.

That insert can't be more than 3/4", say, from the lower front edge of the camera base.

In effect, that huge lens lever is trying to:

a. Pull the 1/4" insert clean out of the camera base.

b. Warp the lower front edge of the camera base plate.

c. Pull the entire base plate off the camera.

Whatever is taking the worst of the strain is going to allow that lens/ body setup to do a startling imitation of a nodding donkey.

The only way around that, looking at the lens construction, is some sort of intermediate adapter between the lens hood and the lens bayonet mount, that allows a support rod attachment down to the rail system.

Job done - if such an adapter exists or can be manufactured. Support budget clock just keeps ticking.

Then you run up against what might be the giant killer.

Standard video heads use a pear shaped cam to apply ever increasing amounts of force to a spring system of some sort.

The profile of that cam dictates just how much force is applied at what tilt.

I won't go into the details, but "yer average" head is designed for a camera COG of either 100 mm or 125 mm above the head plate. Some of the newer ones are quoting COG well below this and undoubtedly have different profiled cams to standard systems.

HOWEVER, whether anyone has profiled a cam that can work with the extremely low COG as presented by that monster, I can't say, taking into account you now also have a rail system "up top" as well.

So, what to do?

Give standard spring and cam heads the flick and go to something like the Varizoom COG head instead.

VariZoom ZeroGravity (Zero Gravity) Tripod Head, Tripods, Lens Controls, Camera Stabilizers & Supports, Batteries, Monitor Kits - Phone: 512-219-7722 (http://www.varizoom.com/products/tripods/zerogravity.html)

Because the camera/ rail system is mounted at exactly the systems horizontal and vertical centre of gravity with respect to the pivot point, the only thing required is some tilt drag to stop the entire setup turning into a propeller in a breeze.

Of course, getting it set to that pivot point is a PITA and if you're making constant changes to the rig config, it will drive you completely demented.

Personally, I'd go for one in a flash if the setup, adjustment ease and bearing quality were perfect (oh, and I was using anything like that monster rig in the piccie).

At this point in time I don't believe they've cracked those problems, and I've only got a little old Canon XH A1 to play with anyway.

BUT, it might just be the answer to those long lens prayers for you'se guys.

It's cheap too, so you might just squeak in under that $1500 even with rails and front of lens adapter.

Nothing to lose by checking it out.

I think my short answer may have sufficed.


CS

with the Sachtler, scheduled to ship ex Munich week beginning 15 Nov.

............my, you lot have impure thoughts!


CS

I dont know for certain, but i suspect you could use the Vinten extended camera slide plate with the 1/4" screw and get somewhere near. The camera body could be attached one end of the plate and itll allow you to slide the body way back. It'll only fit the Vinten heads though.

Vinten | Extended Camera Slide Plate with 2x 3/8 " Screws | www.vinten.com (http://www.vinten.com/en/product/extended-camera-slide-plate-2x-38-screws)

Peter,

Thanks. I'll try to determine the CG and see how that matches up with the extended plate. If I were to buy today, I'd probably go with the Vision Blue if I knew it would work with these type DSLR set-ups.


Chris,

Thanks for the mention of the Zero Gravity unit. I saw it when it came out and I was shooting with an A1, but hadn't really thought about it for using with a DSLR, which makes sense. There doesn't seem to be a lot of thoughtful reviews or even informal feedback on that particular unit. Has it been favorably accepted by the pros?

You sure that's the correct plate, Peter?

On B&H the 3330 - 33 is listed as for the HD - 250.

They also have the 3364 - 900SP listed for the Vision 8, 11, 100 & 250 and the 3449 - 900SP listed for the Vision 3 & 6.

Can't see any difference from the piccies, but that doesn't mean much. Not exactly cheap, either.

Even if the plate wasn't long enough to do the job, it may be usefull if you do have to go for a rail system to suport the front of the lens.

Roger:

I wouldn't like to say definatively one way or the other about acceptance by pro's, but it's low profie is, I believe, due to them not addressing those issues I mentioned in my previous post, and they are pretty substantial issues.

If they want to send me one, I can give 'em (and DVinfo) chapter and verse.


CS

In an effort to make this shootout as painless as possible (huh!), I'm attempting to design a standard form to display as much of the relevant information for each system as possible.

This will allow me to simply print parameters down the LHS and enter the relevant information for each system, side by side, enabling you to simply run your eyes along the row to see which unit does what and how.

It will also reduce the amount of info I need to include in the text which, with this many systems, will make it's retrieval an absolute nightmare.

So, for anyone familiar with Consumer magazine (they must have one in the States, surely?) you get a mountain of info in a handleable form allowing you to compare everything with everything else.

I will possibly enter the same data for my control system (does anyone need to ask?) for comparison purposes.

So, I'm going to attach the rough draft I've knocked up so far and see if anyone can come up with anything they think needs adding, deleting or amending.

Don't worry about either the layout or wording, this is a REAL rough draft.

I'd especially welcome any input from the manufacturers / suppliers involved here.

So folks, on your marks, get set, go..................


CS

Chris,

Good start. A couple of things come to mind:

Overall:
- Retail price
- Warranty terms
- Release date
- Country of Mfg

Head:
- Handle dia.

Tripod:

- Bowl size(size or N/A)
- Foot type (rubber pad, spike, multi-spike, retractable spike...)
- Adjustable center column? (Y/N) <- not sure equipment at this level ever has center columns

Make me feel like a complete twit why don't you?

How could I have left those out (got the bowl/ ball diameter tho').

The only pro video gear I know of that have extendible columns are studio pedestals, not entirely certain I'm ever going to get into that league, but who knows?

Duly added to list.

Thanks, Roger.

I'll post the amended list tomorrow.

Keep those cards and letters rolling in folks, the more the merrier.

I'm hoping to get this so standardised it can apply to any video support system ever made.

Gone extremely quiet on the Miller and Libec fronts, still don't know what Miller are going to put forward and my "Catch you on Monday" from Libec hasn't happened even tho' it's now "end of play" Tuesday.

Stay tuned.


CS

B&H say its for the Vision HD250, but itll fit all Vinten heads cos they all use the same plate.

Chris,

Organizational skills are the first to go when stressed! : )

It's funny about the center column thing. Very cheap tripods often have adjustable centers (tend to wag in the wind) and very expensive tripods have much more complex centers. Given the increasingly light camera payloads, perhaps someone will innovate a great adjustable center integrated with a bowl that allows really high shots that can be conveniently leveled. I think many of us find ourselves in a situation from time to time where 6-7' is needed.

By the way, I was having some dialogue with Varizoom on the Zero Gravity following your suggestion and I made them aware of this evaluation and invited them to contact you with a sample. You never know.

Peter:

You got any comments on the hit list? Love to hear 'em, if so.

Roger:

Thanks for that, keep my fingers crossed. Nice to put any doubts about the Varizoom to bed once and for all.

Updated list attached.

Anyone with any more?


CS