Chris,

A minor one, but one that I found important - size of mounting plate. I have found some of them are crazily long and make hand-holding the camcorder a chore. It's more of a comfort item than a performance item.

e.g. My late Sachtler's Touch & Go plate had a small footprint that didn't affect hand-holding. Some others I have used are long and dig into my hand.

Also, and again it's minor - do all tripods have eyes/hooks for a shoulder strap? is a shoulder strap supplied? My Sachtler had this (although it was an optional extra). Libecs didn't (back then, at least), nor Manfrottos. Some Millers come with a shoulder strap built in. This is useful when you need a quick set-up and don't want to fumble round with a padded bag.

Mounting/ slide plate dimensions - going onto list now.

Got shoulder strap, tho' wording probably needs tidying.

Thanks heaps, every little bit helps!


CS

Coming together nicely..........................



CS

Libec is in with a RS250 system.

Ducks in row, it's game on!


CS

Version 4 of the review parameters.

I have had quite a few additional additions suggested, but they all fell into the "subjective" category and thus candidates for the shootout stage, where I have to quantify the imponderables and for me, unmeasureable with scientific accuracy.

Now THAT list is going to be a doosy.


CS

Chris you annouced a shootout review of tripods on October 19th - I can't find it anywhere.

Just received a 505HD head - I have mixed feelings about this head. Will do a few more tests with it (Sony EX3 camera mounted on it) before I publish my review.

I look forward to reading your views.

Chris,

Can you give and ETA for the shootout testing and results. I've had my finger on the trigger for a Vinten Vision Blue and would appreciate knowing whether this review is something you will be pulling off by year's end or will it be later?

I'm not trying to rush you, just want to sync up my near term buying.

Thanks!

Best guess as to timing, I might just squeak this in before Christmas, but it'll be a tight squeak and no mistake.

I have the Vision Blue and have had for months, the Sachtler is shipped and can only be days away at most, of the Libec, Miller and Manfrotto there is no declared shipping date as yet, I will try yet again today to get an answer.

I will, hopefully, have my new support system test rig up and running by the end of this weekend, barring major problems.

Then there is the testing itself, the photography, which takes days and is totally weather dependent (a dicey proposition in this part at this time of year),the data collation which will be pretty exhausting, actually writing not only the individual reviews but then the shootout itself, getting everything to Chris at DVinfo and the monstrous job of DVinfo staff actually getting it laid out in some meaningfull manner for publication [transfering humungous Excel spreadsheets for on - line publication is not for the faint of heart!].

Actually, Christmas is starting to look like a near impossibility.

Er, Vincent:

Do you mean 504HD or have Manfrotto released yet another new head?

EX3? Manfrotto? Sorry, I don't want to assume anything, but based on previous experience, I would have said that wouldn't be a happy pairing.

Mixed feelings? I bet you have.

Nope, you ain't going to find the shootout till it actually gets published, which will be, well, refer to the above. What you've seen so far was the gestation and birth of the idea and the long haul getting it to fruition.

Do bear in mind, as far as anyone can recollect, this is an industry first. Nobody has managed to get Vinten, Sachtler, Libec, Miller and Manfrotto in the same line up together, ever.

It's not quite as easy as it might look, tho' it has been a lot easier than I thought.

Roger:

Have you actually taken a Blue for a test drive yet?

If not, I strongly urge you to do so before you take the plunge.

I say that only because it is one of the few systems out there where it is possible to get a test drive, in real operating conditions, Vinten bending over backwards if necessary.

None of the other manufacturers have cottoned onto this idea of customer service, avail yourself of the opportunity.

More, as and when.


CS

I eagerly await a first hand report on how the RS250 stacks up against the others. I very nearly pulled the trigger on one a while back (sorry to guys over at Tapeworks Texas) & if I can ever find funds again in this current economy I'm still considering it.

Chris,

How would one go about test driving the Vinten? Do they offer a trial period through their network? I as of yet haven't seen it listed anywhere except on internet sites, and most point back to B&H at this early date.

You fire a mail to Peter Harman ( Vintens [World] Product Manager, Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com ) and ask him nicely if he can set it up through your nearest dealer.

If Peter can, he does, if he can't, he will anyway (he's that type of guy).


CS

Er, Vincent:

Do you mean 504HD or have Manfrotto released yet another new head?

EX3? Manfrotto? Sorry, I don't want to assume anything, but based on previous experience, I would have said that wouldn't be a happy pairing.

Mixed feelings? I bet you have.

CS

505, 504, 540 - damm I must buy a new keyboard soooon.

Yes, Chris I think you have a point about using the EX3 on a Manfrotto head, at least the 504 doesn't let it crash down - unless you have all the balance settings set to zero, then it could be a heart stopping spectacular show.

Just as another thoughtt, have you seen or taken a look at the e-image tripod range especially the E-image EI-7083 - seems like a nice bit of kit and at a very good price.

Untill you mentioned them, I'd never heard of them.

Web site looks impressive.

I'll make a few inquiries and see what happens, nothing to lose.


CS

PS: I've mailed their sales team in China, let's see what happens.

E-Image is one of those less-known imports. ProAV seems to push them quite hard. I've seen some reviews on here before, including a video review, but it is hard to judge when it's not a direct comparison with more well-known brands.

Edit:

See here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/467451-e-image-video-tripod-vs-other.html

I have used the E-image EI-7083 and it is a very good tripod kit that will support the EX3 without any problem. The tripod is made in China and may have a few rough edges compared to say a Vinten or Sachtler. But for someone wanting a well priced unit then the e-image is a good investment.

Awesome news Chris. Looking forward to your feedback. I'm keen on the 504HD but even more attached to the Cine DSLR. Sachtler makes good stuff and i do not have a great experience with the 503HDV. I wonder when will BH photo have stocks of the CineDSLR for testing.

MY contribution would be to test the DSLR directly on the tripods.. some are designed for rigs but i really think many of us would be mounting a camera directly.

From what I understand, Sachtler couldn't source a CINE DSLR rig for this shootout, as they had nothing in stock and the entire next shipment was pre sold already.

Now THAT'S impressive!

If there's anyone who knows who's going to have what Sachtler gear, when (and there's a double edged sword here) it's going to be Barbara ( Barbara.Joumann@VitecGroup.com ) who would be worth contacting if you really must know.

However, the "double edged sword" is that ultimately, she has little control over the supply chain and no one and nothing is immune to lifes' "sh*t happens" events.

I take comfort from the fact that after the dust of this shootout has settled and the database of support systems is established (did I not mention that?), when I eventually do get my sticky fingers on a CINE DSLR, it's details and shootout scores will go straight up there alongside all the others for direct comparisons to be made.

Going to be quite an amazing resource in a year or two's time, and it will all be here on DVinfo, so don't change that dial, ladies and gents.

The shootout itself is progressing through the planning stages with no more than the expected "Houston, we have a problem" moments.

As the guy who fell off the Empire State was heard to say as he passed the 50th floor "So far, so good!".


CS

Ummmm before you hit the ground, you might want to add "Folded Length" to the Tripod and System sections. I think I've single handedly boosted B&H's hit count this week looking up the weight and length specs on various tripods and tripod systems. Anyone looking for something travel friendly is keenly interested in weight and length numbers.

But I beat you to it.

Version 7 ready to roll.............

Er, make that 7a.

Nope, 7b.

Nope, make that 7c.


CS

PS:

Any mathematicians here who would like to confirm my calculations that at 17.18 metres radius, 1 minute of arc = 5 mm?

Thanks for doing this Chris, highly appreciated.
Since you will be testing a Miller system, it would be interesting to compare it to a Gitzo set. The legs are in many ways similar. Gitzo makes them in four different lengths!

Well, I've checked out the Gitzo web site and thought, hmm, I dunno.

I've put it to the experts at Vitec for their opinion.

Personnally I think it would be comparing apples with bananas, but then, what would I know, never played with a set.

Update time:

Took delivery the other day of a Sachtler FSB 6 (0407), CF 75 SpeedLock sticks (4588), mid level spreader and boots (7011) and a Cine DSLR slide plate (number not found).

First impression: Wow! What a tidy parcel it is. SpeedLock system is a Godsend for the spinally challenged (count me in that group!) and incredibly efficient.

The head is so compact it looks like it shrank in the wash, it's small but perfectly formed and, going on the brief play to date, works as smoothly as you'd expect from a Sachtler.

Overall, it reminds me of a racing greyhound in top condition.

Testing begins in earnest today with any luck.

Not getting much feedback on the parameters for the objective data sheet.

This thing is going to keep morphing as I find new stuff on all this kit, so I don''t expect it to be "finalised" till the smoke has cleared down the track.

Version 8 attached.

Those CF 75 legs certainly are beautiful, Chris. I miss mine so badly!

It has been remarked that I'm a bit of a "leg man". I'm sure they mean tripods, not anything else...

What delusional state were you in when you gave the CF 75's the flick?

Dang,, they're so pretty I'd like to hang 'em on the wall as art!


CS

For what it is worth, I did not like the Cine DSLR plate, and I am returning it for another "standard" FSB quick release plate.

It is true that the Cine DSLR plate allows the DSLR to sit up a bit, and also prevents twisting. However, it is long and heavy. If you are using a hand-held rig (like a Zacuto Gorilla) then the Cine DSLR plate will not work attached to the bottom of the Gorilla plate) but a standard FSB quick release plate will. Likewise, if you have a follow focus or rails system, a standard plate will work, but the Cine DSLR plate will not (at least I don't think it will).

Others mileage may vary.

Yeah, it really is a "horses for courses" item.

I've had a couple of problems with it already.

The screw attached backstop dohicky was so high it snagged on the rear of both my SLR's, so just had to go, which just left the front and rear stops as anti - twist points, neither much good from a balance point of view.

As I haven''t got the standard plate yet (nor the bottom spreader - you taking notes, Barbara?) I then had to figure out how to get my camcorders mounted on it.

On that plate it's the platform or nothing, but luckily the front and rear stops on the platforrm are almost the same height and both camcorder bases could span them both.

Not ideal from a pressure point perspective but I'm not planiing on dropping a loaded plate any time soon.

In it's defense, neither of my DSLR's are HD video capable, so may not share the same body build, and I can just guess at the size of some of the lenses going on those beasts, which that plate will handle with ease.

BTW, if you think that plate is long, I got the Vinten long plate with the Sachtler gear. The Sachtler is about 22 cm, graduated from 0 to 20 in cm. The Vinten is over 28 cm!


CS

No response from E - Image in China, I'll try their Australian distributor and see what gives, tomorrow.

I've decided to put a hold on the Gitzo's, for no other reason than the current shootout is already doing my head in.

Fear not, however.

Due to me being able to standardise the data sheet with all objective data for every single system I review, plus being able to do the same for the actual review itself, every system reviewed in future will be directly comparable to every other system reviewed in the past.

In short, there will be a comprehensive database of info, plus my part objective, part subjective personal review to boot, all here on DVinfo.

I'm hoping that we will be able to sort some clever software that will allow a comprehensive, side by side comparison of any three or four systems, across manufacturers, at the click of a button.

Look, was that a squadron of pink pigs flying over just then?

Moving on, the real life photo shoot started on the Sachtler today (ah, sun, don't you just love it) plus some serious testing.

Found my first "Oooh, I won't do that again" with the FSB 6 head. Scary or what!

Had my Canon XH A1 parked up on top and was doing counterbalance/ drag figures.

Had the drag set to 1, the CB at 1. Tilted the rig forward to get a better look at what I was doing and switched the drag to 0 and the CB to 2.

Whoops! Wallop! The entire rig took off downwards like a Saturn 5 missile.

No damage done but note to self: Switching CB disconnects CB entirely untill it has re - engaged, hold pan bar if zero drag set!

More as and when.


CS

What delusional state were you in when you gave the CF 75's the flick?

Dang,, they're so pretty I'd like to hang 'em on the wall as art!

Chris - I thought it was a good idea at the time, as part of my kit downsizing. In hindsight I maybe should've just sold the head and kept those lovely legs!

I just want to make sure that you have been able to access a 504HD system for your test. It is a marked improvement over and different than any Manfrotto "fluid" head I have distributed previously. FYI - We will be introducing the 509HD at NAB 2011 which will be the 504HD's bigger brother.
Thanks,
A very interested (and biased) obsever - Manfrotto US Sales and Product Manager

Chris,

I'd like to offer my services to long-term-test several of the tripods after you are through with them I figure I can publish my results in 10 years. Earlier would be irresponsible and unworthy of the fine craftsmanship and reputations concerned. You can PM me for the shipping address : )

I thought it was a good idea at the time

You know, some of the dumbest things I've ever done have been filed in that drawer!



Manfrotto US Sales and Product Manager

Well, dang, doesn't that beat all! Where have you guys been hiding?

Welcome aboard, Wayne, good to have you on DVinfo.

You familiar with our other Vitec reps here - Peter (Can Do!) Harman and Barbara (This is how it works**) Joumann?

Are you the "go to" guy in the States for 504HD test drives then?

able to access a 504HD system for your test

Well, I think so. (Ignores resultant ominous silence).

Both the Libec and the Manfrotto are being supplied by distributors, which is always fraught, as any test gear comes straight off their bottom line and they're caught between a rock and a hard place if the manufacturer gets ratty about a review the distributor has commissioned.

With both I'd feel a heck of a lot better if only they'd answer mails in a timely fashion (you listening, guys?).

I have my fingers crossed and saying prayers, but always work on a "if I ain't got a package on the doorstep, I ain't got........." basis.

Stay tuned to this channel for the next exciting episode.


I'd like to offer my services

You know, that's kinda funny, in a sad sort of way (not you Roger, no, no, no).

Waaay back when this was being planned, I thought, I'm gonna have some of the most amazing camera support gear on the planet here, in my living room, in little old one horse town (sans equine component) Dunedin.

I reckoned there'd be guys (and maybe guyesses) who'd gnaw their right arms off to get to play with this stuff.

Phone the local video club, get squat. Phone anybody and everybody I can think of who has anything to do with video, get squat.

I gave up, significantly disillusioned.

Maybe I should have found the horse.


CS

** Spoken with a charming Bavarian accent.

May I add a request to your extensive and well considered list?

I recently rented sticks for a shoot & received the Sachtler DV4 -- a few years old I suspect, and probably not available anymore. In using them, I was constantly frustrated by a couple of things that it would be nice to see referenced in your comparison:
1) Bubble level location. The DV4 I used had the bubble level at the six o'clock position, directly under the camera plate. You could look down at it if you removed the camera -- otherwise you were stuck with an oblique and couldn't really get a level;
2) Lever lengths for the pan & tilt lock. I was shooting some industrial shots that involved a pan and tilt, lock on subject, later resume pan and tilt. Shots were minutes long, the middle were lock-off. As I could never find a 'perfect' balance for the camera, I was either obliged to hold steady with the pan arm for the duration of the lock-off (so not really 'locked' ...) or carefully tighten the lock while the camera was rolling, loosen later to resume pan/tilt. Doable, but I'd have preferred it if the lock levers were twice as long as they were;
3) Visual indicator of lock positions. For the pan & tilt functions you could tell by the angle of the lever whether the lock was tight or loose -- for the legs, you couldn't tell anything without checking them with your fingers. Quick release leg locks are perfect, but I do prefer them in most instances;

Thanks for all your efforts. Using the older Sachtler sticks was a reminder to me of how important it is to a smooth workflow to have a tripod that does what you want, when you want with minimal fuss and fiddling. And a reminder of how much I hate floor spreaders. And bottom of the leg twist locks. And camera plates that have only coarse fore & aft balance adjustments.

Cheers,
GB

I think you can take it for granted that any system displaying the list of horrors you outlined, and had the misfortune to fall into my grasp, would very quickly find itself sent back whence it came with a note attached:

"You're kidding, right?"

If you read a couple of my reviews you'll see that not a lot gets by me without comment, and nothing is safe.


CS

I haven't seen the latest list of items to be included in the reviews, but after reading the post about the damaged head and your reply, I might suggest adding a check box for the availability of owners/maintenance/parts manuals to owners.

Yeah, pretty well got that covered in V. 8, er, I think.

Better check that again, just in case.


CS

Yes, I guess you have it well covered other than telling us what the inside left screws are made off.

The table is set, let's now get on with the party !

Thanks chris, i will give it a try.

You may care to mail Wayne directly, as you're both members, just click on his name and you'll get his details.

Not entirely sure he's quite prepared for what sticking his head over the DVinfo parapet has meant, but he'll get there in time, just be gentle.

Vincent:

Well, there is a small problem with just "party".

One actually needs to have the gear here, hot and ready to go,

So far, I have the VB and the Sachtler rigs (and the latter missing some very important bits to boot).

Of the others, nothing, squat, nada.

"I'm working on it" may sound a bit hackneyed, but that's what I'm doing.

When I've got it, I've got it.

Can't review stuff I ain't got, certainly not for a "shootout", and that's for sure.

And there are sure going to be some suprises for this round of reviews, I kid you not.

I can't say anymore lest I scare the kids and horses anymore than I've already done.

Be patient, I'm getting there, this was always going to be the "shootout" from Hell to organise and do, I will, the Gods willing, get there.


CS

Libec RS250 arrived this arvo, boxing a bit the worse for wear, but no harm done.

Long plate and boots included but no GLS, however, the feet are perfect replicas of the Manfrotto so it fits the Manfrotto unit like a glove.

Very neat looking MLS, some serious thought gone into that.

Nice looking unit, not quite the "poke your eye out" looks of the Sachtler or Vinten rigs but workmanlike and everything necessary seems to be in the right place and do what it's supposed to.

Just waiting on the Manfrotto 504HD and it's "play ball".

Nearly there boys and girls.


CS

"Are we there yet?"

in back there!

Can't you see I'm trying to drive!


CS

Bloody kids!

I'd love to see this shoot out! Thanks CS

I have been meaning to find some shootout between the RS250 and the Vinten Vision Blue.

I actually purchased the Blue system from B&H a week ago. It's an awesome unit! BUT I found out about the RS250 which having ALMOST the same spec (excluding the LED, and continuous drag) as the Blue for cheaper price.

I'm going to B&H to check out the RH25 and see how it compares to my Blue. I guess I can also let you guys know my experience.

Thanks CS!

I have the Libec Rs350 system, and can tell you it is a great setup. The fluid drag adjusts in thee steps plus off, and the continuously variable counterbalance is such a nice thing, especially when I have monitors and mattebox and filters and ..... weighing it down. Balance is easy to achieve.


I sprung for the ground level spreader version, seemed like more stable idea, however I'm thinking of getting the Miller Solo CF sticks for travel.

I'm expecting the Manfrotto rig on my doorstep tomorrow or the day after at the latest, screw ups notwithstanding.

It would appear that there is a possibilty that both an E - Image and Secced system will be made available as well, making this the shootout of all support shootouts!

I have to admit. I never would have believed I could line up so many ducks in a row and get them to stay put, in my life.

Given the late arrival of gear, the sheer amount of work required to collate all the the information required, write it it up, proof, format, send to DVinfo for them to translate it to whatever, whilst eating their Christmas turkey (probaly 3 days after the event, cold) don't expect to see the final (er, first?) installment of this till well into January.

Whenever it reaches daylight, it's going to be a blinder, and no mistake.

Oh, and suprises for all, to boot.

Gonna be good folks, I can promise you that.


CS

....Would you be able to help me........I'd like to update from my old "Monopod" a new "Tripod".......do you know anything about them.............is there somewhere I could read a comparative review?????????

In anticipation, from the Western Island, Thank you..... ;)

Al

Just buy two more monopods and some string...!

I'm getting perilously close to pulling the trigger on a Vision Blue, my little camera at 2kg is heavier than I thought it was, and is just about at the Blue's minimum rating.

I have a craving for quality.

And boy, they've not been idle with their new gear, most impressive.

Replaceable pan rosettes and even pull and twist adjustable pan and tilt lock knob positions!

The tripod legs even drop without spreading and the spreader doesn't really let the legs spread, more like do the splits

Case is interesting too.

Looking forward to digging further.

Al,

Yeah, there's this crazy Kiwi I know who seems to have a bit of a clue, I'll see what he can come up with.

Mike,

You might as well pull the trigger on the VB and give yourself a Chrissy present. Heck, you know you want to.


CS

Both the Secced and E - Image systems have been withdrawn from the shootout for the time being as being, er, unwell ( I won't say any more).

Maybe sometime down the track one or both companies will cough up with working models for me to play with, we'll see how that goes.

For the moment tho', the lineup is as follows:

Libec RS250, Manfrotto 504HD, Sachtler FSB6 and Vinten Vision Blue.

The absence of Miller is regretted, but their reaction was, literally, "Thanks, but no thanks", read into that what you wish.

I hasten to add that neither of the Chinese companies mentioned above could even be contacted direct for discussion, they having refused to answer mails to their head offices.

The systems I mentioned (above) were coming from a different source.

Enough said, on with the reviews.......


CS

Great thread to read. I will testify the HD504 head is pro and rather cool looking. Honestly, I wasn't expecting outstanding stuff and was proven wrong. Just my two cents.

...Great advice, I'll up the ante and go with bungy cord and a bit of 3 ply for the top.......

Chris, It's OK mate, I've got my needs sorted, re; the above reply to Mike........Toil away anyway and to show my appreciation I shall read the review.........

Al

So did Secced and E - Image systems just said NO or do they want to chime in with newer models?