Has anyone bought or tried out the Sony PMW 500. I would love to hear some feed back on this camera.

Cheers

Alister got his hands on one
XDCAM-USER.com Sony PMW-500 Review. (http://www.xdcam-user.com/?p=1094)

Thanks Tom,

I have already checked Alister's blog along with some other reviews on line. I was hoping that the 500 has been released and someone was using this on a daily basis to get some feed back on.

Cheers

I'm in line to get one for review from Sony hopefully the week of 11/15

I'll post when I've had the chance to take it for a spin.

I'm trying to find info on the PMW500 with it's over & under cranking abilities.
Does the 500 achieve this in 1280x720? or is this full HD 1920x 1080i

Thanks

Just got the 500 but have not yet unpacked.

More over the next week...

Hi Ned,

Unpack that camera now please.... he,he,he
Man I'm so close to getting this and I await your review of this new little beast.

Cheers

Oh I forgot,

What lens are you going to use with this Ned?

its similar to ex cameras:

1920x1080 25/30p can be UNDERCRANKED (set to 1-30fps)

1280x720 25p can be under & overcranked (set 1-60fps)

Regards

Uli

All unpacked and getting started with set up.

Sony shipped me the Fujinon HA18x lens with manual focus/servo zoom.

First impression can definitely confirm Alister's excellent video review.

The camera is amazingly light-weight with menus/controls that are much more like PMW series (great for me since I have an EX1 and EX3).

The monochrome viewfinder is sharp and the LCD screen is the same as the EX-1.

I have not used any of my own SxS cards since Sony sent me 1x 64gb and 2 x 8gb. Note that to record HD 422 50 Mbps, cards must be formatted UDF. I inserted one of Sony's 8 gb cards and got an incompatible format msg. So, I would presume it was formatted Fat32 for XDCAM EX. When I tried to reformat card in camera, got a msg that could not complete operation. I'll read the manual and see what I can figure out.

I'll do some shooting with it over the week and then alas either have to return it to Sony or disappear to a country that does not have an extradition treaty with the US.

Ned,

Any more info on the PMW-500 you are testing?

Hi Ned,
Now that you have had the PMW 500 for the weekend how did it go?

Cheers

I have enjoyed evaluating the 500. It is lightweight and balanced. Monochrome viewfinder is sharp and focusing is a snap. Of course, with CCDs, not a trace of jello-vision or flash banding. The one thing I was not able to do owing both to schedule and weather was take it to Times Square at night to check for CCD smearing.

I find it somewhat peculiar that it does not have histogram, WFM or any other kinds of scopes. Yes, zebras.

It only draws 29 watts, so that's 3 hrs from the smallest info lithium battery.

The 64gb SxS card holds about 2 hrs of XDCAM HD 50 mbps 422. Writes to a UDF format. No problem with FCP importing the MXF files using most recent version of Sony XDCAM Transfer. Remember on the Mac side to install the UDF drivers after installing the SxS drivers.

In response to another question on the thread, I can confirm that it does Slow & Quick motion in oth 720 and 1080 modes.

It just feels to me like a nice, solid conservative choice. Nothing really bleeding edge. Just solid with a nice image and will be an excellent top of the line choice for those who shoot XDCAM. Suitable for ENG EFP uses or commercials, reality TV.

Finishing the full review now.

Ned

Thanks ned,
Look forward to the rest of the review.
Cheers

I did not know it did over-cranking in 720p and 1080p or am I reading Ned's post wrong?

Yes it does it just like the EXs, 1-30 in 1080 and 1-60 in 720. Presumably requires a power down to change though. I'd be very interested to know which gives better overall results - the half vertical res 60fps in the F800 or the 720/60P in the 500. I wonder how the missing lines of the 800 will react when put through grading and the transmission chain.
Steve

Yeah, I asked this question in another forum about Slow & Quick motion. 1080p is great if this is true.
Also strange that the 500 has no histogram, I can get by without it but it's a bit odd.

Ned, what's the peaking colour used on the 500?

Cheers

Steve never used the 1080 60fps on my F800 since I did not upgrade FCP to view it.

Simon it is weird why Sony pulled the histogram, i never really used it.

I found this from the Sony brochure.
I remember reading this but must have thought 720p only for S&Q

Slow & Quick Motion Function
The PMW-500 offers a powerful Slow & Quick Motion
function that enables users to create elegant fastand
slow-motion footage. The PMW-500 can
capture images at frame rates selectable from 1 fps
(frame per second) to 60 fps in 720p mode and from
1 fps to 30 fps in 1080p mode, in increments of 1
fps*1.
*1: With the PAL setting in UDF (MXF) mode, frame rates are
selectable up to 50 fps in 720p mode and up to 25 fps in 1080p
mode.


More the same on this:

Slow & Quick Motion
function
720p: Selectable from 1 fps to 60 fps as recording frame rate*
(from 1 fps to 50 fps in the case of Pal Area Setting in the UDF Mode)
1080p: Selectable from 1 fps to 30 fps as recording frame rate
(from 1 fps to 25 fps in the case of Pal Area Setting in the UDF Mode)

I wonder how the missing lines of the 800 will react when put through grading and the transmission chain. Steve

I can answer that. 1080 slow-mo looks absolutely fantastic on the F800 and you'd have a real hard time telling that the footage wasn't full resolution. If you want to compare 720 slow-mo on an EX camera vs. 1080 slow-mo on an F800, you'd see a difference.

Simon it is weird why Sony pulled the histogram, i never really used it.

They didn't. See post #25.

Ned, what's the peaking colour used on the 500?


See post #24.

None of Sony's high-end cameras have a histogram function because zebras, when properly used, are so much more accurate and useful for setting exposure.
Yes, I fully agree. A histogram may be fine for setting exposure on a fixed scene, but pretty useless when there's a lot of movement - they totally obscure too much of the image!

Learning how to use zebras properly is a much steeper learning curve than for histogram, but once learnt they are far superior for the reason above.

You can put a 350 finder, with colour peaking on a 500. But you can't buy a 500 with the 350 style VF, or buy a 350 style VF on it's own at this time.

The PMW-500 has more in common with the 350 in terms of image processing, monitoring functions etc than the 700/F800.

I almost forgot that I have a PMW-500 owners manual.
Yes, it has colored peaking -- if you want it.

Peaking Type Normal/Color/Both:
Selects the peaking type.

Normal: Normal peaking
Color: Color peaking
Both: Both

Peaking Color White/Red/Yellow/Blue When the Peaking Type setting is Color,
selects the peaking color from among
White, Red, Yellow, and Blue.

The PMW-500 does have a histogram function. From the manual:

Histogram Display On/Off Turns the histogram display of video
signal levels on or off (in HD mode only).


Any other questions that might be answered in the manual??
I can't share a copy, but I'll be happy to look things up.

Thanks Doug,
Good info on that.

Cheers,
Simon

I can answer that. 1080 slow-mo looks absolutely fantastic on the F800 and you'd have a real hard time telling that the footage wasn't full resolution. If you want to compare 720 slow-mo on an EX camera vs. 1080 slow-mo on an F800, you'd see a difference.

Yes, but I was wondering about after grading and particularly through transmission. How does your stuff look in slomo on broadcast?
I know that the half horizontal rez slomo looks pretty good as I had an F355 a while back and it is really impressive. Certainly not true to say as some have that you can't tell the difference between normal speed and slomo, you can, no question about that, but the difference is no way near as huge as you might expect.
I suppose if the interpolatiob algorythm in the 355 800 is absolutely superb that could be the reason why it looks better than the specs would suggest - I presume there is software interpolation going on in camera?
It's still a little surpising that it'd look better than native 720 though - after all if that was the case why not just shoot you slomo in 1080i and de-interlace slomo in post?
Steve

Yes, but I was wondering about after grading and particularly through transmission. How does your stuff look in slomo on broadcast?
I'd assume no different to normal speed, if the recording data rate rises with overcrank rate. So for half speed footage, double the recorded frame rate and data rate to 50fps and 100Mbs respectively, and playback is then still from a standard XDCAM422 50Mbs recording.
It's still a little surpising that it'd look better than native 720 though - after all if that was the case why not just shoot you slomo in 1080i and de-interlace slomo in post?

That may apply vertically - but horizontally you're talking about the difference between 1920 and 1280 luminance samples, respectively for 720 and 1080 working. (And 960 and 640 chrominance.)

Hmmm... I'm not sure you get the same data rate increase with XDCAM HD as you do with XDCAM EX when overcranking. We know that with an EX the data rate of 35Mb/s is actually the playback rate, so if you shoot at 720P25, overcranked to 50fps the playback data rate ends up at 35Mb/s which implies that the recording is 70Mb/s. This is one of the reasons why you have issues with SD cards etc when overcranking.

But with the optical discs on a 700/F800 this would mean recording at 100Mb/s when overcranking and this is beyond (AFAIK) the capabilities of the single laser deck used in the cameras, which maxes out at about 90 Mb/s and can only go upto about 70Mb/s for sustained recordings. Given that the 500 recording formats are 100% optical disc compatible (in UDF mode) this would suggest the same recording bit rate limitations. So I speculate that the recorded bit rate is not doubled as with the EX, which is why the resolution is halved vertically.

The implication is that an EX shooting 2x overcrank is less compressed than a F800 at the same speed.

Putting speculation about data rates aside, in the real world, there is absolutely no question that 1080 slow-mo from my F800 looks superior to 720 slow-mo from my EX1 on a 1080P timeline. If I had the choice between both modes on a 500, there's no question which one I'd choose to use.

Fully agree with you Doug,

The slow motion off the 800 at 1920x540 60p looks fantastic and much better then 720p 60p off the EX1/3 for more reasons then bit rate.

Alister do you still own your 700? Or do you use the 350? Or both?

Doug, Paul, that's interesting to know. Although of course the chips and processing that make 720 in the PMW500 and PDW700 won't be same as the EX cameras and that could make a difference.
Steve

Agree Steve,

I would think the chips and color spacing have a lot to do with it.

Hi Ned,
How has the 500 performed for you? It would be great to hear more from you.

Cheers

Given that the 500 recording formats are 100% optical disc compatible (in UDF mode) this would suggest the same recording bit rate limitations. So I speculate that the recorded bit rate is not doubled as with the EX, which is why the resolution is halved vertically.
Interesting....... Does anyone have access to a PMW500, who can try recording a minutes worth normal, and a minute of 2x overcrank. And then compare filesizes?

David I would be happy to test that out when I have access to a demo from Abel. We are trying to work out a date for this now.

That would be very good Paul.

Alister - it does occur to me that if the PMW500 behaved similarly to the EX (so a 2x overcrank gets recorded at 100Mbs), the resulting file could still be 100% optical disc compatible (in UDF mode). Dub it across to an XDCAM deck, and there need be no difference (as far as the deck sees it) between such a file and one shot without overcrank. The recording rate restrictions of the disc need only limit the transfer speed in this case - not the datarate of the file whilst filming or for normal playback.

So it's conceivable the 500 may have an advantage in this respect over the 700 or 800?

But the only way to be sure is to try it.......

I agree that the 500 should be able to write to a SxS card at 100Mb/s and that the clip should then play back correctly if dubbed to an optical disc. But it would not meet the specifications for an XDCAM HD file AFAIK.

I might be completely wrong, it is just speculation, as has been said the only way to find out would be with a test recording.

As for whether 1280x720 or 1920x540 looks better, well a lot depends on the scene. Landscapes and scenery will almost always look better at 1920x540 as they tend to have lots of horizontal information, but imagery with geometric patterns can look very strange at 1920x540 as you see the image softness across the vertical axis while the horizontal axis is twice as sharp. Rotating objects appear to cycle through soft and sharp due to the H/V imbalance, becoming visibly sharper as they pass through horizontal only to go soft again as they go vertical. I shot some flag twirling cheerleaders at a festival and you could see the flags going soft and sharp as the spun, very strange.

At the moment I'm concentrating on 3D so I only have a bunch of EX3's and EX1R's. I'm getting a pair of F3's as soon as they become available, so the 700 and 350 have gone as I have no use for them at the moment.

Alas have to send the 500 back to Sony.

Very impressed with its performance as a production video camera.

Solved the problem of formatting the SxS card that I mentioned in an earlier post-- the card was locked. Duh.

Only one very strange concern, which I suspect is more related to FCP than to the 500. Shot some 720 23.98 footage to SxS cards. I have all most recent versions of FCP and XDCAM Transfer software. XDCAM Transfer reported that 23.98 footage as No Codec and would not import, even when I ticked the import without codec installed box in the prefs. It would preview the footage in XDCAM Transfer but not import.

I could import that same 23.98 footage into Avid MC5 and PPro CS5 and it would show up as 23.98.

Ned

To Doug... Thanks for the historgram info. Really buried in the documentation and not referenced at all in the index.

Ned

imagery with geometric patterns can look very strange at 1920x540 as you see the image softness across the vertical axis while the horizontal axis is twice as sharp. Rotating objects appear to cycle through soft and sharp due to the H/V imbalance, becoming visibly sharper as they pass through horizontal only to go soft again as they go vertical. I shot some flag twirling cheerleaders at a festival and you could see the flags going soft and sharp as the spun, very strange.


That's the sort of thing I was wondering about, that imbalance potentially causing problems.
I still think the PMW500 is the pick of the range at moment - although like a lot of people I do like the optical disc scenario with file-based workflow but with an instant archive.

Steve

Steve I am also seeing the 500 as the pick of the lot.

Hi Paul,

I'm about to order a PMW500 this week. I have made the decision and going for it. The next decision is what cards do I purchase for the 500. I use the MXR adaptors with SDHC cards for my EX1 but I don't know if theses will work in the 500. Sony are selling the Pro cards but man they come with a heavy price attached.
I use the disc system all the time with my Sony PDWf350 and love this work flow but when I travel for extended periods out bush I find taking 10 or more disc's takes up a lot of space. Now the card system I love, you can have a pocket full of theses and go all day without the storage problems of the disc's.

I use the MXR adaptors with SDHC cards for my EX1 but I don't know if theses will work in the 500.
Have you considered having a couple of true SxS cards to record onto initially, then copying all clips across in camera to SDHC? (Maybe more than one copy for security.)

It gives the peace of mind of initial recording to SxS, and since SDHC cards aren't vastly dearer than optical discs they are cheap enough to take 10 with you at a time. You can certainly do this with the PMW350 - I'm assuming the 500 allows for "copy all clips" from one slot to the other?

Thanks David,

Thats what I'm thinking, although If I shoot 4.2.2 at full bit rate I'm wondering if the SDHC cards can handle the data rate. I'll have to look into this further as I'm just approaching this problem now.

Hi Simon,

Sounds like a good move. I have set up a time at Abel for some demo shooting with the 500 and 350 to make sure again before I decide. My choice now is the 500 for the CCD.

As for SxS cards I have only used the Sony SxS Pro cards with my EX1, EX350 and would be sticking with those. I have 6 - 16GB and a couple of 8GB. I would buy two 32GB to add for travel. Also I have placed an order for a Ki Pro Mini to go along with my Nano. I am sure over a few month I will have a favorite, and who knows maybe both are worth having in the kit.

Did you go for the used lens? I am looking again at the Fujinon ZA17x7.6 BERM with CAC. This is what I used on the 350 and F800 with great success. I think it is the best 2/3” HD lens deal on the market new.

Look forward to hearing about your purchase and progress with the camera.

Hi Paul,

I would love to hear your thoughts after testing mate. The lens I'm checking out this week, If it's a no go I'll look at the ZA17x7.6 BERM with CAC again.

Cards I'll have to investigate further as my knowledge with what is on the market is limited. Any thoughts on the limited life span SXS cards? are they worth the purchase?

Cheers

HI Simon,

I will send you an email on the timing of my test, then post findings here.

The lens is great, I tested it against some top glass last spring. It is the same optics as the HA just slightly different build. Look into it.

I don't know off hand the life span of the SxS Pro or other cards. But I do know the Pro cards have twice the life span as the new ones that came out with the 500. I never like to skimp on storage it is not worth it to me or my clients.

The SXS-1 cards are "supposed" to have less cycles than the SXS pro Cards. I believe the life span is still around claimed to be 5 years with a daily cycle, so probably at least 10 years in the real world. Considering SXS-1 are identical on the other specs, being 1/2 the price of SXS Pro made them a no brainer for me. In 10 years, all these cards will be valueless. I wouldn't be surprised if they SXS-1 and SXS Pro cards are identical in all but colour.

Anyone have trouble with SXS-1? Touch wood, mine have been fine.

Mike I am sure you are right, the new SXS-1 cards are the way to go. If it is 5 years of daily use who knows what we will be shooting on at that time. Same card different color, interesting thought.