I was working on a project recently and noticed that on the generated media, the solid color white was reading, according to the waveform monitor, as being at 110%, instead of 100%. Is this right? Also, the solid black was reading at -10%, instead 0%. What's up with all that? Do you have to adjust each one just to make it NTSC legal?

Yeah those colors are "illegal".
Colors can be illegal if they are too bright/dark, too saturated, or too bright/dark and too saturated (you check this with the WFM in composite mode).

In this case, the generated media colors are too bright/dark. For NTSC, keep values between 16 and 235. So 235 235 235 is maximum white, and 16 16 16 maximum black.
For web work, use the full 0 to 255 color range.

Or you can just apply the broadcast safe filter (lenient 7.5 setup), and it'll clip things into legal range.

If you want to make something broadcast legal, there's more to this that what I wrote above. Making things broadcast legal limits your colorspace available and in that way lowers the quality of your video.

Thanks. I figured I could just bring the brightness up to 0 on the blacks and down to 100 on the whites using the "brightness and contrast" plugin. The vectorscope should tell me if everything's too saturated (i.e. illegal), no?

Josh,

The Vegas "Broadcast Colors" Video FX has several preconfigured levels:
"Lenient" - 0-100IRE
"Lenient-7.5 Setup" - 7.5-100 IRE
And several others, make sure and look at the settings.

BTW, I've used this FX several times and its sloooowwww to render. Works, but its slow.

I may have provided erroneous information in my last post:

Colors can be illegal if they are too bright/dark, too saturated, or too bright/dark and too saturated (you check this with the WFM in composite mode).

It should be that colors can be illegal in two ways:
A- Luminance is not in 7.5IRE-100IRE range (systems other than North American NTSC may use 0-100IRE range).
B- The composite signal is below -20IRE (around negative twenty... you can go lower, but most broadcasters clamp at -20IRE I believe), or is greater than the ballpark of 110-120IRE (depends on where the broadcaster wants to clamp it at). Momentary peaks above 120IRE are ok.

See http://tig.colorist.org/archives/public/oldtig-mhonarc/1997/msg01675.html (read the whole thread)
I believe I misunderstood what was discussed in that thread... hence I thought there were 3 ways colors could be illegal.

In the digital domain there's no such thing as IRE. For proper monitoring, you should get an external hardware vectorscope to hook up to your equipment. However, if you set things up correctly (which is tricky because of the whole 7.5IRE confusion) then the scopes in Vegas can correlate to what you'd see on an external vectorscope. They will NOT correlate if you have things setup wrong (and that's easy in Vegas).

To setup things right in Vegas, go into the video scopes setting and check both boxes (if you're working towards NTSC but not for Japan).

Flip the waveform monitor into composite mode. Things should be between -20IRE and ~110-120IRE. Momentary peaks are ok.

Check luminance on the histogram. Everything should be between 16 and 235.

2- If you're going to DVD, I wouldn't worry about broadcast safe.

One thing you should aim for though is keeping luminance values between 7.5IRE and 100IRE. On the histogram, keep everything between 16 and 235. Everything else may clip (someone's DVD player may do it).

The waveform display will vary depending on whether you clicked the "7.5IRE" box (that setting does not affect the output from Vegas).

2- If you're going to DVD, I wouldn't worry about broadcast safe.

I hadn't heard that before. If I'm reading your post right, are you saying that DVD players today automatically clip video signals to make them broadcast safe? Or are you saying that DVD players can display colors outside the broadcast safe range with no problems?

Just wondering, because I've been limiting my video to broadcast safe maybe when I don't need to (I'm outputting to DVD). It would speed up my render times to take off that filter. I always thought that if you use illegal colors, especially whites that are too bright, you'd get distortion in the audio. Is that only true for broadcasts?

One reason I was worried was because most times I've seen my stuff projected digitally, say at a film festival, the projection is significantly more contrasty than I KNOW the movie actually is. . .clipped whites abound when projected where I know none exist in reality.

I hadn't heard that before. If I'm reading your post right, are you saying that DVD players today automatically clip video signals to make them broadcast safe? Or are you saying that DVD players can display colors outside the broadcast safe range with no problems?

Just wondering, because I've been limiting my video to broadcast safe maybe when I don't need to (I'm outputting to DVD). It would speed up my render times to take off that filter. I always thought that if you use illegal colors, especially whites that are too bright, you'd get distortion in the audio. Is that only true for broadcasts?

Some DVD players will clip the colors outside the "legal" range. Others won't. This is from reading websites about Joe Kane's calibration 'stuff'.

I don't think it's a big deal if you have illegal colors going through the DVD. Illegal colors could cause interference in the audio, but I think that's only if they have their TV hooked up via UFH/VHF. If they use RCA or better I don't think you'd get that interference. I should maybe double-check this myself.

You should still keep your colors in the broadcast safe range. Anything outside of 16 and 235 on Vegas' histogram likely won't be seen.
If you want to keep your colors legal, I'd put these numbers into the broadcast safe plug-in:
Luma min 7.5
max 100

Chroma 100 (you may be able to go higher, not sure; it'll likely be rare your colors are so saturated that you'd want to go higher)

Composite
min -33
max 133

check both those boxes.

That would correspond to 133IRE, which is the maximum for NTSC non-broadcast. You can't broadcast stuff with lots of 133IRE peaks in it because of FCC laws but DVD is non-broadcast so it should be ok.

Know what's weird? I "graded" something using my Sony PVM 14m2u monitor, and when burned to DVD, the whites which looked a lot more "clippy" when I watched them on other TVs than they did on that monitor.

Do you think it's better to bring your levels (where they're illegal) within NTSC broadcast spec before you render, using various plugins (color curves, brightness/contrast etc) than to just let everything go and then simply apply the "broadcast colors" plugin after the fact?

Know what's weird? I "graded" something using my Sony PVM 14m2u monitor, and when burned to DVD, the whites which looked a lot more "clippy" when I watched them on other TVs than they did on that monitor.
When was the last time you calibrated your monitor?
http://videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm has a great tutorial on how to do it correctly.

My experience has been that most TVs are far from being set properly so I've come to trust that the signal is good leaving my place and the fault is with the end user. Not that you're ever going to convince them though :-(

The other issue, as Glenn said, is that different DVD players handle things in their own way. Some clip, some don't. Some add the 7.5 IRE of set-up and some don't.

Do you think it's better to bring your levels (where they're illegal) within NTSC broadcast spec before you render, using various plugins (color curves, brightness/contrast etc) than to just let everything go and then simply apply the "broadcast colors" plugin after the fact?
I try to make sure my levels are correct before I apply any kind of filter. Others will probably disagree but to each his/her own.

Mike

Thanks for the info, Glenn.

Heh. I actually calibrated last night, and I have those videouniversity instructions taped to the top of it (don't worry, I'm not covering any vents).

So, is the "safe" thing to do to check the 7.5 setup box on the waveform, and adjust things accordingly?

Heh. I actually calibrated last night, and I have those videouniversity instructions taped to the top of it (don't worry, I'm not covering any vents).

So, is the "safe" thing to do to check the 7.5 setup box on the waveform, and adjust things accordingly?

Glad to see you're doing things right :-)
As far as the "safe" thing, if your video is destined for (NTSC) broadcast, make sure you have 7.5 units of setup. Anything else and you don't need to worry about it.

I guess I'd like something that'd be adaptable to any situation: film fest, broadcast, DVD, projection.

Know what's weird? I "graded" something using my Sony PVM 14m2u monitor, and when burned to DVD, the whites which looked a lot more "clippy" when I watched them on other TVs than they did on that monitor.

Do you think it's better to bring your levels (where they're illegal) within NTSC broadcast spec before you render, using various plugins (color curves, brightness/contrast etc) than to just let everything go and then simply apply the "broadcast colors" plugin after the fact?

I'm pretty sure broadcast monitors and televisions can display those illegal superwhites (things brighter than 235 on Vegas' histogram). It may be that in Vegas, there's some colors above 235. Some DVD players will clip those colors off, so that would explain the discrepancy.

For your second question:

You can work "in reverse". Apply broadcast colors to see which of your footage looks wrong/clipped. (The legacy filter can be helpful here because it can invert colors.) This is the faster approach.

Or you can work forwards, messing around with your footage so it's in the broadcast legal range and it looks good when everything is in the broadcast legal range. And then apply the broadcast colors plug-in to see what your footage will probably look like (since some DVD players will clip illegal values). Toggling the filter may help.
You can apply the filter onto the video preview level. Right click the green filter icon and choose bypass/enable all can toggle the filter.

So, is the "safe" thing to do to check the 7.5 setup box on the waveform, and adjust things accordingly?
For North American NTSC:
Go into the video scopes options and check both boxes, the 7.5IRE and studio RGB box.
For the broadcast colors filter, base things off the presets for 7.5IRE.
That box doesn't actually affect the output from your camcorder to monitor. In your monitor, the menu may have an option for accepting 0 or 7.5IRE input. If you're using a consumer camcorder, probably set it to 0IRE and then calibrate (this may not make a big difference).

If you live in Japan or a PAL country, that information does NOT apply.

I guess I'd like something that'd be adaptable to any situation: film fest, broadcast, DVD, projection.
Those are all different situations.

Film fest: No idea what format they use.

Projection: One difference from television: the best thing to do is to color correct with the projector that you'll be using, although that's a luxury you may not have. Colors can sometimes be washed out and blacks cut off/crushed depending on the lighting situation for the projector.
You may not need to worry about broadcast-safe, although you may if they feed the projector off a DVD player.

DVD: You can be much more lenient that broadcast safe and have more bright+saturated colors.

Broadcast: Illegal colors and improper formatting (timecode, tone in relation to program audio levels, slate, etc.) can get your master rejected, so you need to pay attention.

There's little things about each format which you can optimize for. In the case of broadcast, the little details become much more important because you can lose a client over it.

All I have to say is. . .sigh.

I agree with you Josh. Personally, I don't even worry about it UNLESS the video is going to be broadcast. For standard event work being distributed on DVDs, I've never had any complaints.

Let's take another tack.

I'm just trying to figure out what's objectively "right" here. Regardless of whether I'm aiming for NTSC or not, the checking of the "7.5 setup" both should be either the right way to do it or the wrong way, as far as accurate readings, no? What I mean is, objectively, the blacks that Vegas generates (this could be the black you get from a blank area of the timeline, or generated media) either ARE or AREN'T 0%. If you have the "7.5 setup" box checked, the blacks read as 0%, but if you don't have the box checked, it reads as -7.5%. If I were to look at those blacks on a real external waveform monitor, what would I find? 0 or -7.5?

Also, I thought if one was using DV, DV blacks are 0%, so you wouldn't check that "7.5 setup" box while trying to color correct/grade. Isn't that correct? Footage orginated on an XL1s on default settings.

Oh, and another thing: the differences between NTSC legal and the full limits of what one COULD do if there were no legal limits aren't THAT big of a deal, are they? What I mean is, if, just to be safe, I always just made everything legal, I wouldn't be likely to screw myself in any significant way, would I? I mean, I know if I went to film (yeah right) then 7.5% would look a little grey, but, other than that?

Josh, your 0% percent doesn't have a unit on the end so it's kind of vague that way. I presume you are talking about 'Vegas WFM units' (WFM=waveform monitor; I made these terms up). The problem with Vegas' WFM is that checking the boxes in the settings will change the values. So to accurately communicate here, you'd need 4 terms for each possibility on the WFM monitor.
I'll just call them "Vegas WFM 7.5IRE studio RGB", "Vegas WFM 0IRE no studio", etc.
But the thing is, you may not really need to concern yourself with them.

2- If you're working with the Sony DV codec throughout your chain (and never the MS DV codec), then checking the studio RGB box is the right thing to do (check the manual).

3- In your scenario (making a DVD), you probably want your master to conform to the standards for a digital master. For an 8-bit format like DV, blacks should be at 16 and whites at 235. I believe the correct unit would be Y prime, since DV decodes to Yprime Cr Cb format. In Vegas you can't see these values since Vegas works in RGB color space. But if you look at the histogram, 16 (Vegas histogram) should correspond to 16 (Y prime) and 235 (Vegas histogram) to 235 (Y prime).

*I'm just assuming that 16 (Y prime) corresponds to 16 on the Vegas histogram. You can't see those digital values in Vegas (as far as I know) and there's a possibility that Vegas is wrong. If someone has an *external* vectorscope then they can check all this stuff out.

The deal with the Vegas WFM:
The Vegas WFM is supposed to show the same readings as hooking up an external WFM to your DV device. However... some DV devices put blacks at 0IRE and some at 7.5IRE. Vegas doesn't know which one that is.

So first off, figure out what kind of equipment you want to monitor for.
Equipment that puts blacks at 7.5IRE: Most/?all? DVD players, professional video equipment set to 7.5IRE (such as the deck the broadcaster will play your master on).
Equipment that puts blacks at 0IRE: Consumer/prosumer equipment, Japanese equipment.

For DVD, you want to monitor for equipment that puts blacks at 7.5IRE.

I don't think you'd ever really want to monitor for equipment that puts blacks at 0IRE, unless it's for Japan or PAL.

4- If your equipment put blacks at 0IRE:

Suppose you're connecting a TV to your system. Feed bars from Vegas to it. Calibrate the monitor to those color bars... set contrast and the PLUGE bars.
see http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm

In Vegas, 16 (Vegas histogram) should be output at 0IRE. You're calibrating your monitor to blacks at 0IRE. So, you now have your monitor showing things properly- it won't clip/crush the blacks.
*It may be that in practice your monitor won't 'like' blacks at 0IRE. I'm just assuming things work like they should.

Ok, so if you do that: you should have proper digital levels, and they'll appear right on your monitor.

5- Here's where I'll probably just confuse you.

Suppose you now want to make an analog betaSP master through your Sony DSR11. The DSR11 is a ~$1500 "prosumer" deck that puts blacks (blacks that are 16 in digital units) at 0IRE, and can't do 7.5IRE (from what I've read).

If you want your life to be easy, get a deck that puts blacks at 7.5IRE. Or get the Canopus ADVC box, which I believe can be set to put blacks at 7.5IRE.

If you want to be cheap, here's how you can do things in Vegas:
Set Vegas to monitor for equipment that puts blacks at 0IRE. In the Video scopes setting, uncheck "7.5IRE".
Now you want to add artificial setup so that the blacks in your footage end up at 7.5IRE. So for example, you could add the color corrector filter and put 16 in the offset. This should bump blacks from 16 to 32 (16+16=32). So when you print to tape, 16 (digital, Y prime which should be the same as vegas histogram units) will be at 0IRE. 32 (digital) will be at 7.5IRE. In vegas, you already put your blacks at 32 digital. So now they'll end up at 7.5IRE on your betaSP tape (when going through the DSR11).

The whites will end up at 235+16, so you have to use the gain to make things right.

Ok, now suppose you print your master onto DVCAM also (or DVCPRO) and you send that to a broadcaster for broadcast. Their deck is probably set to put blacks at 7.5IRE. So now, your tape's blacks (which are at 32 digital) will end up at 15IRE (too bright). Whoops.
So don't do that.

6- DV blacks are 0%
DV blacks are supposed to be at 16, and whites at 235. As mentioned earlier, I believe the correct units would be Y prime. DV stores the video compressed + error correction, and that video decodes to Y prime Cr Cb. This is sometimes confusing written without the prime symbol on "Y" (YCrCb), or referred to as YUV.
Vegas never shows you things in Yprime Cr Cb... so you're kind of guessing about what it converts those values to.

A good resource on this stuff is http://www.poynton.com/ I haven't looked through all the materials on that website. It doesn't directly pertain to Vegas, but has lots of video engineering information.


Oh, and another thing: the differences between NTSC legal and the full limits of what one COULD do if there were no legal limits aren't THAT big of a deal, are they? What I mean is, if, just to be safe, I always just made everything legal, I wouldn't be likely to screw myself in any significant way, would I? I mean, I know if I went to film (yeah right) then 7.5% would look a little grey, but, other than that?
I think you could potentially make your footage look worse than not applying the filter.

In Vegas, the broadcast colors filter can excessively limit your color space (If you use the conservative setting). Bright + saturated colors will be brought down in saturation, which can look bad on some rare images.
Should I post up a picture for you?

Sure.

I haven't used the filter yet. I was going through the elements in the project and manually taking them to legal limits (e.g., on the solid color white, use a brightness/contrast filter, and lower the brightness 'til the whites read at 100% instead of 110%.

I'll have to chew over the rest of that when I've had a nap.

The consensus seems to be leave that 7.5 box checked, if I'm hearing (seeing) you guys right.

Oh, and. . .if I were to check the 7.5 setup box, then I want to have blacks reading 7.5? or 0?

Josh, see if JVC's 5 min. flash black setup tutorial at http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf helps to clear things up.

Mike

I think I've watched that before, but I'll watch it again. Thanks.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Watched it and still unsure of how to handle the issue at hand.

Seems like according to that, until I deal with analogue source, the idea would b to monitor with that 7.5 setup box UNCHECKED. But I'm probably wrong for some reason.

Josh, here's what I think Vegas does.

The waveform monitor in Vegas is supposed to match what you'd see on an external waveform monitor hooked up to the analog outputs on your DV deck/camera.

Your deck/camera either puts 16 (digital luma values) at 0IRE or 7.5IRE. An external vectorscope would show which is the case. Vegas doesn't know whether your deck puts 16 (digital luma values) at 0 or 7.5IRE. So, you have to tell Vegas what your deck is doing. That's what the 7.5IRE setting in the Video Scopes setting is for.


Anyways, you don't need the waveform monitor in Vegas per se. Just use the histogram, which shows you the digital luma values for your digital video. Keep important details between 16 and 235 on the histogram. It also has more detail that the waveform monitor.

So, if your target format is DVD players:
You know what DVD players put 16 (digital luma values) at 7.5IRE. So, you want blacks to read 16 on Vegas' histogram.
Your deck/camcorder may not put blacks at 7.5IRE. But, that doesn't matter because you are going to DVD.

Glenn and all,

I just read and tried to comprehend as much of that information as I could, being as I'm a rookie at this stuff. I just graduated from a baby Panasonic to a DVX100A.

My goal is now to shoot and edit a documentary for broadcast. Of all the questions I have on broadcast-legal colors, the big one is, what would be the way you recommend for me to A) set up my DVX and B) set up my colors?

Anything anyone can offer me is *greatly* appreciated. I know how to get stuff done in terms of people and production skills but I feel lost about how to get started because I don't want to just start shooting willy-nilly with no forethought, thereby possibly creating a big problem for myself down the line. I want to shoot knowing at least my camera and my Vegas are set up correctly.

If this question is in the wrong area and warrants a whole new thread, I'll ask a moderator to move it.

Thanks

My goal is now to shoot and edit a documentary for broadcast. Of all the questions I have on broadcast-legal colors, the big one is, what would be the way you recommend for me to A) set up my DVX and B) set up my colors?

As I don't own a DVX, I can't help you out there. I know that this site has a DVX forum so I'd ask for help there.

As far as setting up colors, my first recomendation would be to buy a decent field monitor and, more importantly, learn how to calibrate it.

B&H has the model I have, the JVC TM-910SU, for $610.00
It's a 9" model that's 4:3/16:9 switchable and can be AC or DC powered.
It also has underscan, blue gun only and color off, all very desirable features in a field monitor.

You may also want to invest in a carry case of some kind. Porta-Brace and Kata are 2 good manufacturers.

There's a tutorial called "Color Bars and How To Use 'em" at http://videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm that I recommend memorizing :-)

Holler if/when you have more questions.

Mike

DVX100: In the menus, there's an option for 7.5% setup or something like that. DON'T turn it on.
See Adam Wilt's DV FAQ (http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#Setup) - scroll to the very, very bottom
You can fix things in post if you get it wrong, but its easiest if you leave that off.

My goal is now to shoot and edit a documentary for broadcast. Of all the questions I have on broadcast-legal colors, the big one is, what would be the way you recommend for me to A) set up my DVX and B) set up my colors?

It may be easiest to get someone else to pay for an online edit, and they'll handle the legalization stuff for you and format your master right. And they'll have a betaSP or digibeta deck too, setup correctly (stations generally only accept masters on betaSP or digibeta).

You could probably use Vegas to do the online edit (and if you want to do serious color grading, it can be the best platform because your edit is conformed already and the CC tools in Vegas are pretty good). However, a lot of things in Vegas aren't obvious. For example, fade to blacks will go under 16 (digital luma values) unless you add a solid color generator 16 16 16 RGB underneath.

You also have to figure out how to do an insert edit yourself. Or you can do the color yourself, and then bring your project to an online edit session and let them make the master.

Thanks for the answers, guys.

First off I need to do some serious studying because I have no idea what most of those terms truly mean. But here are my further questions which I think will elicit the simplest answers:

1 - By "pay for an online edit," Glenn, are you referring to someone else doing all the editing, as in, I supply the tape and say "Make it compelling, please!" (LOL), and they do all the cuts, transitions, use of B-roll, choices of what and when and where, to their tastes? Or did you mean me doing the editing in Vegas and someone else tweaking what I've done to be broadcast-friendly?

2 - What does "conforming" really mean? I've searched the Vegas instruction pdf as well as online A/V glossaries and I never see an actual definition.

2 [continued :) ] - RE: the advice "if you want to do serious color grading, [Vegas] can be the best platform because your edit is conformed already". In this context does it mean "because your editing would already have been done in Vegas so you can just do the CC in Vegas too"?

3 - Pardon me for being the noob that I am, but, why is deck selection even an issue in terms of "formatting my master right"? Are we talking about *outputting* the edit to betaSP/digitbeta for submission to a station, or are we talking about capturing? If we're talking about capturing, it is puzzling to me that digital data on the DV tape on which I shot my clips, doesn't come out quite the same way depending on what device I capture from, be it my camera, or a cheapie deck, or a pro deck. It's digital data - hard numbers - so to my mind it should all get captured identically, unless you're tweaking the captured data at the same time. Just like how if you pop a DVD into a DVD-R or a pro DVD-RW or a home DVD player or a PSP, the data on the DVD gets interpreted the exact same way in each case.

Thanks so much for the help. Clearly I am on the exponential-growth part of my learning curve but I'm absorbing quickly, thanks to the help of everyone so helpful on this forum.

Edit: Forgot to ask - what the heck is an insert edit and why would I need to do it? I know what it means in terms of editing (meaning, inserting clips into the timeline as if you were cutting film and splicing it in someplace else) but the way you refer to it makes it sounds as if there's another meaning. I Googled it and found references to beta decks and DVC Pro decks that sound like there is a second, very different meaning.

Thanks yet again!

Sorry, I don't think my message was that clear.

1- Online edit: By that I mean pay someone else to do the finishing for your project. Making the levels broadcast-safe, putting your documentary on the master formatted properly.
In your words
doing the editing in Vegas and someone else tweaking what I've done to be broadcast-friendly

2- Conforming: By that I mean importing your project into whatever system you want to online or color correct/grade in. If you color correct yourself, this is easy because you don't have to do anything.
In this context does it mean "because your editing would already have been done in Vegas so you can just do the CC in Vegas too"?
Yes.

If you want to go to another system, you have to do an EDL or XML (not everything will carry over, and there may be bugs) or export a series of files (dissolves may not look right if you're doing drastically difference grades on both sides of a dissolve/fade).

Pardon me for being the noob that I am, but, why is deck selection even an issue in terms of "formatting my master right"? Are we talking about *outputting* the edit to betaSP/digitbeta for submission to a station, or are we talking about capturing? If we're talking about capturing, it is puzzling to me that digital data on the DV tape on which I shot my clips, doesn't come out quite the same way depending on what device I capture from, be it my camera, or a cheapie deck, or a pro deck. It's digital data - hard numbers - so to my mind it should all get captured identically, unless you're tweaking the captured data at the same time. Just like how if you pop a DVD into a DVD-R or a pro DVD-RW or a home DVD player or a PSP, the data on the DVD gets interpreted the exact same way in each case.

Sorry, I'm talking about about making a master tape for your project.

Broadcasters typically accept only betaSP or digibeta for masters (not miniDV). Chances are you don't have one, and your system is not setup for one.

As well, they have requirements as to the formatting of that master.

Thanks and no need to apologize, Glenn! Any info is much appreciated, and besides, it is my own ignorance that is the problem, not your explanations, hehe.

Gotcha on the beta master, thank you. I did just read something about how capturing with different decks gives different results; I've searched and searched and can't find the thread, though. Maybe it was referring to decks that add setup.

Glenn, do you work in video (and in Vegas as well?) for your day job? You clearly have so much knowledge and experience with this stuff I'm figuring you are either a pro or an amateur with a 5th degree video black belt, LOL.

Thanks again Mike and Glenn, I certainly will holler again soon when I'm trying to get my brain wrapped around the next thing.

Gotcha on the beta master, thank you. I did just read something about how capturing with different decks gives different results; I've searched and searched and can't find the thread, though. Maybe it was referring to decks that add setup.

Setup can get "added" during digital <--> analog conversions. 16 (digital luma value) either gets translated into 0 or 7.5IRE.

Some cameras record black at 2 (digital luma value), which can get translated into 7.5IRE if the deck puts 16 (digital luma) at 0IRE. That's not a good practice though.

Suppose you have a digital tape and you are transferring digital. If you capture over SDI, some decks will apply chroma smoothing/interpolation. If you capture over firewire, it copies your video EXACTLY and chroma smoothing/interpolation is up to the DV codec. Apple's DV codec doesn't add chroma interpolation when decoding DV. Vegas's doesn't.

see http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/chroma_investigation_nattress.html


Glenn, do you work in video (and in Vegas as well?) for your day job?
Not yet. ;) Right now I'm in university for Radio and Television Arts. Although they don't teach you that much stuff there... a lot of what I know is from reading and doing stuff. There's lots of knowledgeable people and good resources on the internet. I really don't know all that much, and I've been wrong many many times.

If anyone wants to get REALLY confused about the 0 IRE/7.5 IRE issue, Videohelp has a very interesting thread at http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259098

Mike

Glenn,

True, there are a lot of knowledgeable people out there, but not all of them have around 3,000 posts, like you and Edward Troxel. I'm jealous you know enough to be ABLE to be so helpful! LOL
And of course I deeply respect that fact that everybody who posts, does help each other.

It's funny, when I use Photoshop, any MS Office product, or a couple of CAD programs, I can use them as extensions of my own hands, if you know what I mean. I navigate without even thinking about it. CTRL+ALT+T, Right click+A, Enter, bam bam bam, just knocking out steps one after another as fast as I can move. But in Vegas I know precisely what I want to do, I just can't make my "hands" move the way I want them to! I need a "DWIM" buttom... Do What I Meant, LOL

Question about decks - Why are there $4,000 decks? I thought all they did was capture. I use a little camcorder for capture so I don't wear out my DVX, but I'm always wondering "Can it be this easy? Am I missing something?"

High end DV decks run around $8k. The main feature is SDI output so you can work uncompressed (which is the 720X486 frame size) and transfer video digitally. When you want to print to betaSP or digibeta, uncompressed will give a little higher quality.


By uncompressed I mean the CCIR 601 format (something like that) with 720X486 frame size. You can work uncompressed with 720X480, but most capture cards don't work at that frame size.

But yeah, there's nothing wrong with a $300 camera. Mass production makes consumer stuff much cheaper.

It doesn't compare to the $100k you might be paying for some HD decks though...

but not all of them have around 3,000 posts, like you and Edward Troxel.
There's a difference between quantity and quality. Heh... :P

LMAO, modesty at its finest


If my intention is to end up having a documentary broadcast, and as you said, they'll most likely want it on beta, should I be capturing with a deck then? (And taking that capture home and editing it, rather than capturing with my second camcorder and editing that)
Or will the difference not be noticeable since it's not for film blowup?

If my intention is to end up having a documentary broadcast, and as you said, they'll most likely want it on beta, should I be capturing with a deck then?
Not necessarily. If you transfer firewire, you'll get an exact copy of the video/picture.

If you transfer SDI, the deck has to uncompress the DV footage and send that over SDI. Over multiple generations, you technically lose some quality.

2- Not sure how you'd transfer your project to an online system. You could always print off to tape, although the dissolves won't carry over (as in, you can't apply color correction to underneath the dissolves).

I'm going to repay your friendliness by pummelling you with questions, but hey, it's good for ya, LOL

If firewire would produce an exact copy, and SDI is lossy, why does spending anything (let alone thousands) on a deck so you can transfer SDI, make sense?

You mentioned SDI output = 720x486 = uncompressed in your post before this one, in this thread. So, I don't get why ya say "If you transfer SDI, the deck has to uncompress the DV footage and send that over SDI."

So, I don't get why ya say "If you transfer SDI, the deck has to uncompress the DV footage and send that over SDI."

DV IS compressed.

If firewire would produce an exact copy, and SDI is lossy, why does spending anything (let alone thousands) on a deck so you can transfer SDI, make sense?


DV frame size is 720X480.
ITU.R CCIR 601 format (something like that; SDI works in this format) has a frame size of 720X486.

Suppose you want to capture your DV footage. The way Final Cut Pro works, it tries to resize DV to fill the 720X486. It wastes a lot of time rendering.

The following article goes into detail about that:
http://www.lafcpug.org/feature_capture_card.html

SDI also has a minor benefit in that it does chroma interpolation for you. This saves time rendering. Some programs don't even have a chroma smoothing interpolation filter. Chroma interpolation is handy only for keys and secondary color correction, or if you have 'chunky' color.
http://www.lafcpug.org/Tutorials/basic_chroma_sample.html

Thanks, guys. I'll respond later - I'm reading from those links but this much info at once is like trying to take a sip from a fire hose, hehe