Hi

Shooting using EX1R, probably 1280x720p 60fps at 1/2000 shutter speed since I need best slo mo raw footage....If I want the absolute smoothest slo mo at at 10% of original 1280x720p 60fps, what should I do - I know that Optical flow in Motion is better than FCP slomo, but what about Compressor or Cinema Tools? Does one first conform to 24p? On FCP time line or through Compressor or what?

What workflow would provide the best cleanest smoothest slomo to make it look like it was shot at 1000fps? Shooting ballet and jazz dancers, black outfits against white BG mostly.

Thanks
K

PS. Never used Cinema Tools - how to, if it's the best to conform and to what - 24p?

To react on the first part of your post:
shoot overcranked at 60/24!
This way the footage will be saved at 35Mb/24frames at normal 60p it will be 35Mb/60frames.

If you want footage to look like it was shot at 1000fps, you'll need to shoot it at 1000fps.
With 60fps your software will have to interpolate around 16 frames (15,6666) between every frames you got (1000/60=16,6666 16,6666-1=15,6666). I never tried anything like that, but it will probably look blurry, like morphes or like crossfades.
In my opinion (I could be wrong!) it's like you are trying to shoot a movie with 2 stills per second and expect the software to fill in the blanks for you.
I fear you are stretching the possibilties to much; doubling the frames should be possible with the right tools, without everybody noticing it. But I could be mistaking.

If it's an assignment: explain them you'll need to rent a camera that can do the job. (And enough light with the right specs to do it.)
If it's 'for fun': try how far you can strech the footage before the motion really falls apart and let us know :-)

Good luck!

Kent, search for Twixtor on the internet. I do not have experience with it, but it seems to be a very valuable plug in.

Hi
I have tried using the slomo of CS4 (timewarp) It seems not to create fantastic slomo. I have seen Twixtor made slomos and they seem fantastic - - but the footage was another style that what I have tried.
I have tried making a flying bird with a moving background in slomo and timewarp have troubles with that. The Twixtor clips I have seen is with just one moving object and a fixed camera - is this the right way to use Twixtor ?

Kent, I would say the most important factor would be camera movement. Slowing down footage that much is a lot of interpolation as mentioned. If you happen to be moving the camera it will be magnified. So I would try to not move the camera at all if it fits with your subject matter.

My jury is out on high shutter speeds. I would experiment and see what you like the best. I have shot dance with higher shutter thinking of slo-mo and have thought the normal 1/60th looked fine. Especially ballet where the motion blur add to the fluidity.

As mentioned, you can not replace actual higher framerates. But I have to say even 60p slowed on a 60p timeline looks pretty good. A lot better than in the DV days.

Take all the above advice for frame rates but do yourself a favor and get twixtor. Just be warned it's addictive!

Watch this:

YouTube - FemHit Big (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQKfiDgDibs)

Then get Twixtor.

(I used something different but similar for this video)

This was shot on an EX1, 720/60p 1/120 shutter.

Thanks to everyone for replies...Perrone, was that shot originally 720p 60 in S&Q mode or just regular 720p 60?

Regular. I needed the audio.

Perrone, what was the final frame rate after applying the plug-in slow mo?

Kent,

Twixtor does work great on certain types of shots and up to a certain amount without being able to notice something is obviously up with the footage and it was not shot this slow look.... Shooting at 60p with the EX1 locked down can give you some flexability but once you go past 120 in post you will start to have issues IMHO...I have an EX1 and love it but ultra slow mo will be tough sell. I have shot 120 with RED and it looks great but even it's footage would not go to 1000fps without looking poor.... I have been spoiled and got to shoot a Phantom HD and once you see real 1000fps footage it is very very obvious you can not touch it in comparison. The link below is a small reel of 1000fps shots from a phantom for comparison. Twixtor is cool but conditions have to be perfect (against a sky background perhaps) and you may be able to get a shot to look as though it was shot at 500fps in a perfect scenario. If a higher end client is looking for footage shot at 1000fps I highly suggest renting a phantom to get the shot or discuss other options if the budget will not allow for the high end rental.

Brain Farm Cinema Phantom Camera Reel on Vimeo

Perrone, what was the final frame rate after applying the plug-in slow mo?

No idea, it varied through that clip and others I do. Generally, I slow it down to 25-15% of original, depending on needs.

I see the "swimming background" in Perrone's video (although I certainly appreciate the effort). I tried Twixtor a few times and the circumstances really have to be right with the background in order for it to look Phantom like.

I keep hoping that with the advent of large sensor video cameras, some manufacturer will be able to cut down on the data to increase the frame rate . . . much as one drops from 1080 to 720 in the EX series to get 720p24/60. If one looks at the Casio still cameras that go to something like 1000fps at the size of a postage stamp, it must be possible to do something useful at under $10k. I'm half tempted to buy one of those and try blowing up the frame.

EXILIM High-Speed - Cameras - Products - Casio (http://www.casio.com/products/Cameras/EXILIM_High-Speed/)

High-Speed Test Footage (Casio EX-FH20) on Vimeo

I agree with Jason to do it right you need the right gear. You can trick them up to a point and twice what you shoot seems to be the limit but even then viewed on a nice HD screen you will notice.

Jason the Brain Farm demo http://www.brainfarmcinema.com/video/video_1.aspx is the best demo I have viewed period, it inspires me every time I watch it. The right gear: Cineflex, Phantom HD, Red One, Pan 3700, Huges 500, and the knowledge to know how to use it properly.

I see the "swimming background" in Perrone's video (although I certainly appreciate the effort). I tried Twixtor a few times and the circumstances really have to be right with the background in order for it to look Phantom like.

Yep, but it's suitable for purpose. Really, very few people have the resources to just "rent a Phantom or a Weisscam" when they need slo-mo. So we have to make due with the tools at our disposal. I shoot slo-mo for motion analysis work about 2-3 times a month. It's not critical use, and the EX1 or the T2i do a serviceable job.

If I was making a living off this, or my rates for shooting warranted it, you can best believe I'd get a real high speed camera in to do the work. But on my own dime? No way. :)

We have a Casio here, and while it does shoot at 300 FPS, the images produced at that rate are very blocky and look BAD, this even with decent lighting.

EX1 or 3 shot in 720P@60 and slowed to 24fps is clean. Our clients much preferred that, even though it is not as slow. And yes, Phantom and other true high speed cameras, though incredibly expensive, are by far the right tool for the job. Street people have no idea what it costs to do good HD slow mo, they just expect to flip a button and blink the magic wand for perfect results - UGH.

This is another company with some great cameras to rent for high frame rate work.
Fastec Imaging LP - High-Speed Digital Video Cameras - Lucid (http://www.fastecimaging.com/)

Paul thanks for posting up the Brainfarm demo reel link. Outstanding and inspiring as you say.

You are welcome Andrew. If someone is in the business this is a must see. Click for full 1080p sit back and enjoy the ride.

Yeah that BRAIN FARM Reel is sweet!

Yes, Paul the Brain Farm Crew has a sweet setup and their productions stand out. This Nike commercial was shot with the Phantom Gold as well... It is also inspiring... Makes me want to take out a equity line, put myself further underwater.... :) and buy one as shooting with it once is not enough... It is addicting! They rent for 2500 per day on average... 40+ day shoots would pay for it... :)

The Camera Crewing Company, Nike "The Race" Phantom HD Gold on Vimeo

Agree Jason once you try it which I have only done in house you are hooked. The Fastec imager is 720p and a small hand held unit. I am going to check that out at the factory. less then 1/4 of the cost of the Phantom. I have a few clients close to going for the rental so hopefully it will happen soon.

$2500/day is with out glass and mag.

@ Paul:

I'm curious about the image quality: Somehow I always fear these 'industrial highspeed cameras' produce 'Hi-8 colors'. So, if you rent one: can you show us the result?

Yep, 2500.00 for the phantom rental was bare bones... We already had glass though and the mag was an extra 500.00 on a deal as normally I think it is over 700.00 which sucks.... so you can quckly be at over 3000.00 for the day. Makes buying one seem like a better option more and more if you will use it a lot.


The Fastec was tested by Tom Guilmette see his Blog below for some testing and a small review... It is only 20,000 to buy and about 500.00 per day to rent. It will shoot 718fps at 720p and must be tethered to a laptop. Still a very cool unit and the price is much more reasonable but it has some drawbacks, if you can live with them it is a great little unit. I am trying to talk my wife into selling the house and getting a Phantom... :)

Fastec Imaging High Speed Fun – Lacrosse Test 718 Frames Per Second « Tom Guilmette (http://www.tomguilmette.com/wp/my-blog/archives/3325)

Beat me to it Jason with Tom's blog post. They have another unit that is self contained that I will check out. Once I have more info I will post what I find. But if you can live with 720p the Fastec might be a good path.

Thanks for posting the Nike ad. I really enjoyed the visuals. This style of shooting reminds me of macro photography for some reason. Highly specialized, really cool but with limited application.

If you guys have any specific questions you would like me to ask next week at Fastec let me know? I will try and take stills of the gear and hopefully be able to post some test clips if allowed.

I really just want to know purchase price across the product line (and I see a few lines on their site) and whether they have rentals in New York City. It's only way I can offer them for my clients. Of course maybe a simple "what's the least expensive"

I really just want to know purchase price across the product line (and I see a few lines on their site) and whether they have rentals in New York City. It's only way I can offer them for my clients. Of course maybe a simple "what's the least expensive"

Will do Craig I will try and get the pricing on the full line and see if there are rental options in NYC.

If Nike were one of my clients I'd buy a Phantom...sure, why not?

I have had to reschedule my visit to Fastec Imaging to the week of the 25th.

Wondered if I rent a NANO for my EX1R ($100 a day), will that NANO be much cleaner and/or yield better results with my attempt at getting good slow mo? I hope to shoot at 720 24p, 60fps...then use MOTION's optical flow to get a few shots down to 10% speed...will the NANO make this easier, smoother, what?

Should I shoot at 1000 or 2000 shutter speed?

Kent I think the Nano is great but going to 10% I don't think will work well. I tried 720p 30p/60p at 50% and was not happy with the results. But who know you could have better luck. Interested to see your results.

Still have not hooked up with Fastec. I have to keep following up and maybe we will get it done this month since I am on the road again.

I think I'll try the NANO especially as a lot of the BG will be black on stage, so need better blacks with out much blockiness...question is, using my EX1R, should I use 100MB or so, long gop or choose 180-200MB iframe and what's the differnece especially when it comes to editing the footage in FCP 7? Can my MAC PRO 3.0, 7200rpm internal hard drives edit this stuff anyway?

Lastly. how to record slo mo on the NANO? Do I just choose 1280x720 24p at 60 fps on the EX1R menu?
Does the NANO then record at that setting but at 100MB or whatever I choose? Or do I do all the settings on the Nano? In fact can the NANO record slomo at 1920x1080p? 60fps?

THANKS

...... In fact can the NANO record slomo at 1920x1080p? 60fps?

THANKS

No: you can't record something that's not coming out of the camera.
The EX1R/EX1/EX3 can't go beyond 30fps at 1920x1080p/i
At 720p 60fps is the maximum framerate.

Btw, you are discussing your slomo plan for over a month now... Why don't you just do a test (or 2) with 60fps footage and slow it down to 10% before arranging everything for your final project?
Let a red ball bounce before a black background, let someone jump around in your frame.
And try to make it look good at 10%
This way you'll find all the bottlenecks in a trial and error way, which will probably be a faster way than asking around while almost nobody has ever tried to get a good slowmo by slowing footage down to 10%.

It's time for some action! ;-)

(Just a thought...)

Thanks for thoughts - have tried a few tests, some good results - shutter 500, 720 24p 60fps, slowed down to 4% with Motion's Optical Flow...got a nice film I'm making with some of this material, will post when it's done.

Here's a sample (not color corrected or anything, just straight)...you can see the point at which the artifacts stop and it becomes smooth - one has to do research as to careful planning of subject, BG, lights, etc to get this kind of thing to look 1000fps (-ish). Not as good as Phantom, but not bad.

TEST on Vimeo

Kent thanks for keeping us up to date. Looks like you are getting some where with your test. Keep it going.

Damn Kent that's not bad! Sure her feet are odd, but even that's kind of cool. Did that 14 sec take a long time to render?

Not long at all - 1 minute - and actually the real clip was 20 seconds long, shot at 60fps which made it twice as long, then slowed down to 4%! which made the clip very long in MOTION timeline, but then I just made that clip in/out points of what I wanted and rendered with Optical Flow chosen - took about a minute to render to Pro Res 422

I've got a few more great shots but will post later (when I finish the film I'm making - couple of weeks maybe).

Cool. So you just put in the original XDCAM footage to Motion? You didn't bump it up to ProRez or anything first? Just checking. I want to try. I had not even heard of optical flow in Motion.

Kent, Very nicely done... I am suprised at the feet showing issue and not the Hair...which is what I expected to show the first signs of an issue. However this looks really good for 60fps down to 4% much better results than I would have expected... So what was your workflow on this, everything done in Apple's Motion?

I'm surprised in a positive way!
Only the feet behave like I expected the complete image would do. (Is this sentence making sense? ;-) )
I guess it's the combination of moving and bending that makes the optical flow loose track.
A next step would be find the slowest speed where the feet move smooth as well.

Thanks for sharing!
I see the artifacts that explain your questions about the nanoflash.

Finally got to edit this thing...turned out OK, not Phantom camera beauty but for the SONY EX1R, OK - used MOTION's Optical Flow at 4% and careful pre-planning re: the plain white BG (last half of the video). Vimeo really compresses the thing, lots of noise that's not in the original (I hate that, don't you?), BUT I should have used slower shutter like 48, 60 or 120, too much noise (not enough light) at the 250 and 500 shutter I used, oh well, this was an experiment and admittedly, the music is what really makes it all come together. Be sure to click on the HD button.


Decorus (Graceful) Dancers - SONY EX1R - SlowMo on Vimeo

Very nice. It is very encouraging to see what can be done with perseverance.

Congratulations!

It's forums like these and Vimeo researching that helps us all be better videographers/editors...thanks for everyone's help and suggestions.

Nice super-slow-mo Kent! Nice piece in general too.

Kent I enjoyed watching. Really enjoyed the music and how well it fits the footage.

Is the dancing slow motion 720p 60/30p from the camera? Not the jumping slow motion I know that is Motion Optical Flow 4%.

Very nice of you to post and show your results. Sure it is not a Phantom but the best I have viewed from a EX1R running that slow.

That came out much better then I would've expected. Nice!

Thanks Paul, Mark...I shot everything at 720 24p, S&Q mode 60fps...then I slowed down to 4% of that just the ultra slow mo shots...

Kent, great footage! I never would have believed that sort of slow-mo would be possible with an EX1 and Motion. Very nice. It inspires me to go out and try it myself.